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“A complete about-face”

Attorney General Jerry Brown changes wording of the ballot initiative to protect marriage; backers of Proposition 8 threaten a lawsuit


Proponents of same-sex marriage are applauding state Attorney General Jerry Brown for changing the wording of Proposition 8, the state ballot initiative that would define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

The original wording of Proposition 8 read that the measure “amends the California Constitution to provide that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” But last week, Brown’s office made public the November ballot initiative’s new wording. The title has been changed from “Limit on Marriage Constitutional Amendment” to “Eliminates Right of Same-sex Couples to Marry,” and the summary now reads: “Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only a marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”

The new summary notes that the initiative could lead to “revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments.” The new summary, however, indicates there would be “likely little fiscal impact to state and local governments.”

Gareth Lacy, a Brown spokesman, told the July 29 Los Angeles Times that the change in language was necessary in the wake of the state Supreme Court’s decision recognizing same-sex marriage as a right. Changes in initiative wording often occur, said Lacy, between the time initiatives are circulated and their appearance on the ballot.

"What Proposition 8 would do is eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry, which is exactly what the attorney general put in the title of the measure," Steve Smith, campaign manager for No on Proposition 8, told the Times. "It will be very difficult for them to win the case."

Both sides agree that the language change makes Proposition 8 a harder sell, since it asks voters to approve a measure that removes an existing right. Jennifer Kerns, a spokeswoman for Protect Marriage, the group which has backed the initiative, called the new language “inherently argumentative.”

"This is a complete about-face from the ballot title that was assigned" when the initiative was submitted for signature gathering, Kerns told the Times.

The initiative’s backers have said they will file a lawsuit to challenge the initiative’s new wording.

Meanwhile, a July 18 Field Poll showed support for the initiative lagging, with 42% of voters surveyed saying they support the initiative and 51% saying they oppose it. Protect Marriage, however, claims that the Field Poll consistently understates Californian support for protecting marriage.

Frank Schubert, Proposition 8 campaign manager, in a posting on the Protect Marriage web site noted that “during Proposition 22, the Field Poll reported that support for that initiative was approximately 50% in the months leading up to the election, while the measure received more than 61% of votes at the ballot box.” However, in May of this year, continued Schubert, “when Field was reporting that support for [Proposition 8] was at 40%, the Los Angeles Times survey found support at 54%. Over the years Field has consistently understated support for the initiative by a minimum of 10 percent.”


READER COMMENTS

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:22 AM By Ann
If the aim ultimately is to stop same sex marriage, why not make it very clear. I see nothing wrong with Brown's wording. Let's be open and honest.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 4:29 AM By Pilsun
I agree with Ann. As a normal-marriage proponent, I actually like the new wording better. It lets the voter understand more clearly that they are voting against the absurdity of homosexuals "marrying" one another.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:24 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
Let's be clear about this: Amendment 8 has NEVER been about defining marriage in heterosexual terms. Straight couples have always had the right to get married, Straight couples have never been affected by Gay couples, and Straight married couples will not be affected in any way by either the passage or rejection of Amendment 8. What this amendment is about is something utterly new: DENYING a legally-granted privilage to an entire segment of the population. The voters of California need to be aware of what they are voting on here, and I think the new wording of Amendment 8 is far more accurate. The voters of California need to be aware that passage of Amendment 8 will have NO effect on heterosexual couples, but it will in fact rip apart tens of thousands of legally married Gay couples. The voters need to be aware of this.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:38 AM By Audacious Aardvark
How about a compromise. The wording could be: "Eliminates Right Created Without Legal Basis by a Handful of Lawyers Acting as Legislators of Same-sex Couples to Marry"

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:37 AM By Linda
Jerry Brown wants to turn the Marriage Sacrament into a Sodomite Sacrilege. Godly Californians are facing unprincipled evil. The Gaystapo are subverting the the people's expressed will. It's time for a protest march in front of Brown's office. God will not only judge those who perpetrate this homosexual evil he will judge those who sat by and allowed it to occur.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:50 AM By Grisha
SORRY THIS IS OFF TOPIC: However, I need some advice about a minor matter. I'd normally go to my pastor about this, but right now he's up to his eyebrows with funerals, weddings (one of which has the groom with orders to Iraq two days later) and church repairs. This weekend I'll be at a wedding in Mexico which will be out doors. It will be in the 80's or 90's. While my wife and daughter will wear wide brimmed "African - American Church Lady" type hats, what's the protocol about men wearing hats outdoors at a Catholic wedding?

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:54 AM By David
The comments are designed to change what the amendment stands for... it makes no sense to have the opponents of the amendment to change how it is to be worded to encourage hostility to it. We vote on the amendment that was submitted, not as Jerry Brown feels about it.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:17 AM By Fr. M.P.
Unnatural acts are not eligible as a right. Notice how everything is purported to be taking away a so-called "right?" That's marketing.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:29 AM By Sick and Tired
Just relax everyone ... Politicians are our leaders and know what is best for us lowly serfs. Because Brown is also an attorney, his wisdom and logic is beyond reproach.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:36 AM By Ed Laning
Why did he wait so long to announce the change? Ballots have to go to print in August. This will leave little time for an appeal. This late notice reflects AG Brown's motive.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:51 AM By Synaxarion
California State Attorney General's revision is tendentious. It propagandizes for exactly what is in dispute, namely, whether there is--or indeed ever could be--a "right" to same-sex conjugality. In consequence of Brown's tampering, the meaning of Proposition 8 is substantially altered. A "right" is posited as already in place and then it is put to Californians whether to "eliminate" it. That is not, in actual fact, what California signatories signed. Brown's alteration is, then, essentially dishonest. In introducting it, he has acted beyond the scope of his powers as Attorney General.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:45 AM By John L. Sillasen
Homosexualists are not open and honest; neither is Brown; neither is any supporter of these people. The voters made Prop 8 clear. Brown is illegally ... an act of treason for an atty general (but since he is a state atty gen and violating state regulations ... er, wait ... the State Constitution is under the dominion of the US Constitution, so his act may, in the spirit of Jane Fonda, amount to an act of treason against the United States. Changing the wording of a petition to amend the state Constitution after the fact of signatures is criminal fraud ... this guy needs prison time.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:48 AM By John M
"Do not be deceived God is not mocked"Our generation will experience the Glory of God and the desperation of evil as no other.This battle is being played out on our doorstep.Please please pray as if your life depended on the outcome.Our God is an awesome God.Sin is rampant and it is not spoke about from the pulpit. Would someone please wake up the Church.Pray for God's mercy,please

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:03 AM By John L. Sillasen
Grisha, I live in a very sunny region, not much less so than Mexico. For example, last year July 07 it hit 122 in my neighborhood. Thus, I know what I'm talking about. +++ Sunscreen rated 50+, topped with a straw sombrero (buy locally in Mexico) if allowed, and/or sunshade type umbrella. Now, question is, do I, myself, wear this stuff? No, as I got my "immunity" as a kid year after year on the southern Calif beaches, where we'd compete for the best "body burn" ... fond memories of blistered skin all over the torso and legs ... year after year ... tiny bubbles we'd pop and the water would come out ... yes, water. So, scientifically speaking, I pulled in 98% of my lifelong dose of Roentgens in those days. +++ Today, being outdoors much of the time, I look to the clothing styles of Bedouins and/or Mexicans when the sun is out (layered cotton, 100% cotton, especially the fine weave that blocks sunlight), which it definitely is for another couple months. One further word of caution: Coastal areas may be overcast ... BUT, the ultraviolet pours right on through and is even more dangerous because people tend to not shade themselves as much. Optimum is strapping on an ozone machine, backpack like, which emits a steady layer of ozone over your head, which blocks the harmful rays from the sun. Keep hydrated ... lots of water; it is the norm around here to always be packing pint water bottles, several of them.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:59 AM By Anne T.
Let's face it it. Two women or two men have NO "right" to marry than a father has the "right" to marrry his daughter or a mother her son, or a brother and sister has the "right" to marry.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:35 AM By Rich
"Aardvark" - I think you're misinformed. The majority of the CA Supreme Court justices who handed down the ruling were republicans appointed by republican governors, and the ruling was 172 pages of carefully weighed Constitutional consideration. Your statement is just sour grapes. "Linda" - you seem like a mean and negative person. I'll say a prayer for you that you find a way out of your turmoil and learn to love and understand rather than harbor such negative feelings. "David" and "Synaxarion" - The change of wording was necessary; the old wording was created before the CA Supreme Court ruling, which is a big deal and now a reality. As of its effective date, gay couples do indeed have the right in the great state of California to legally marry. Our highest court said so. They outrank your personal feelings. "Fr. MP" - Legal marriage contracts are indeed a civil right. Catholic sacraments are not a legal right. There's a difference, my friend. We are governed by the Constitution, not the Bible. I am Catholic. I think my family and my priest would be saddened by the vile words and general animosity displayed here supposedly in God's name. No religion can ever take away a civil right that has nothing to do with religion: the legal marriage contract licensed by city hall. If you can't distinguish the legal right from the religious sacrament, maybe you should pipe down until you comprehend the difference. I'm sorry to be blunt, but you folks want to deny something that you have always enjoyed from people who never did a thing to you and don't seek to deny you anything. It's wrong. I think we as Cathlics are better than that, and have better things to do.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:42 AM By The other Mike
So we are supposed to believe that protecting normal, common sense marriage in California “Eliminates Right of Same-sex Couples to Marry", and "could lead to 'revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments.'”?? Sorry AG Brown, I don't buy it. Protecting normal, common sense marriage reinforces family unity and strengthens California.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:09 PM By Jack Picknell
The change in wording emphasises the biggest problem in US Government today. Note who made this is now considered a law that is to be repealed. Was this law enacted by the will of the people through their democratically elected representatives? This change is identified as "necessary in the wake of the state Supreme Court’s decision". This clearly points out where the real power in American politics is concentrated. It's the judiciuary powers that need reigning in.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:20 PM By John L. Sillasen
Here's another guy, Rich, who claims to be Catholic ... ok, granted that, the problem is that he goes only so far in his explorations of Church and state to be able to proudly distinguish the difference between state law and divine institution. Too bad he stops there ... ignorance is such fun.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:24 PM By Rich
Other Mike, that is your opinion but what do you base it on? I'm guessing your own personal morality, which is fine but that's not what our laws are based on. Prop 8 would indeed eliminate a right that exists today (which was not the case prior to the Supreme Court ruling when the initiative was first circulated), and the tax impact assessment is from neutral financial experts. Those are facts, not anyone's personal opinions. I think you, too, are confusing the Catholic sacrament of marriage with the legal California contract of marriage. They are not the same thing.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:30 PM By Rich
Mr. Silasen, I resent your insinuation that I'm not a real Catholic or not as good a Cathiolic as you. That's not fair, and really not your place to say. I admit freely that I do not follow Catholic teaching 100% to the letter, but those who claim they do are often not being honest (how many use contraception?). I consider myself a very good Catholic and a good person in my community. I'd like to know what you think I'm missing about church vs. state. I don't think I'm being "ignorant" of anything, so please explain yourself.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:31 PM By RR
Rich: Sorry to be blunt, but you are the wrong one here, not Fr. M.P. Homosexuality is a perversion and does not deserve a right any more than a mother has a right to marry her son or a father marry his daughter. It's not acceptable or good for a civil society. You, your family, and your priest should be more concerned about the vile actions that the homosexuals do. It condemns their souls to hell. That is what you should be saddened by. What you are saying is that God would approve homosexuality. Well I'm sorry my friend, but He does NOT. He condemns it. Get your CATHOLIC bible out and read it. And by the way, homosexuals have done things to affect others and myself. They have shoved their agendas down our throats to the point parents can't send their kids to school because homosexuality is taught to be normal. IT'S NOT! It's deviant! They have no right to even be teaching that in schools. What about the 3r's being taught in schools instead of homosexuality being shoved down their throats. No wonder the kids aren't learning anything. I could go on forever on how homosexuals deny me things, but there is not enough room here. Also, your California highest court may have approved of homosexual marriages, but the HIGHEST court of all, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, has said otherwise. Which do you want to live by?? Are you going to serve God or man?? Take your pick. You can't do both.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:35 PM By James
As biased as authors and politicians are these days, I'm not sure what to think. If the author and Attorney General are totally accurate and upfront in this article, then why are we heterosexuals seeking to preserve the sanctity of marriage complaining? Why complain about the financial details? That is standard format and is necessary regarding potential tax expenditures and revenues associated with propositions. On the other hand what if the author missed out on the details of some fine print contrary to heterosexuals liking? Or what if the Attorney General wrote it that way hoping the words set it up to fail at the ballot box? If there is no underhandedness and what is written is honest and up-front, like Ann and Pilsun, I stand behind it. Lets start cleaning up this state and elect clean, straight, heterosexual politicians as well. As for Rich's comment : "No religion can ever take away a civil right that has nothing to do with religion: the legal marriage contract licensed by city hall". You had better beware that Islam is on the rise in the USA and if we christians loose our courage and strength to oppose their culture of death, we are in for a dark future. Just look at the Netherlands, they have succumbed. We are maybe 20 years behind them. Pray the Rosary daily!

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:41 PM By elizabeth
Can he do that? I mean legally? Even as Attorney General?

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:06 PM By Ronnie
Hey Rich, I wonder whether I can marry my brother then? Or how about my girlfriend and boyfriend? When society starts redefining marriage watch out! When the natural law comes tumbling down society is finished. Remeber Sodom and Gomorrah? There is no civil right for two men or two women to marry. This was imposed by tyrannical judges who by the way in California, were not true conservatives but "republicans in name only", liberals, so let's not distort the truth. I'm afraid the vileness and hostility is coming from those who display intolerance towards those who support the traditional family. Of course, this is precisely how it works, isn't it? Convince people that the poor gays are they ones being discriminated against and hated, while the opposite is true. We love you but we won't and will never love your sin!!!

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:29 PM By Rachel
I don't know, I'm no marketing expert, but I almost think this wording change would help pass the proposition. It does make it very clear: no gay marriage. I do think it's a mealy-mouthed changed, talking about "eliminating rights." Judges aren't supposed to legislate, right? Striking down a law as unconstitutional is not the same as approving its opposite. A bad anti-theft law wouldn't make stealing suddenly OK.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:39 PM By Sandy
The new wording is fine. It states exactly what the proposed ammendment would do...ELIMINATE RIGHTS.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:50 PM By Linda
So I'm mean because I oppose your evil agenda promoting homosexual deviance eh "Catholic" Rich? Not nearly as mean as you by misleading these poor souls trapped in homosexual compulsion. Not nearly as mean as those who would lead them into the pit of Hell by promoting their behavior and trying to turn it into a sacrament instead of the sacrilege it is. Many true "Christians" who have homosexual attraction oppose "gay marriage" because the Bible says "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." God speaking there in Leviticus 18:22. Jesus upheld the Old Testament saying he had come to fulfill it. God's word also says that to be married A MAN AND A WOMAN must physically become ONE! I'll pray for you, too, Rich and all the poor souls being led down the path to HELL by people who don't really care about anything but the moment and the fleeting pleasures of this vaporous life. What's next? How about fathers initiating their children into sex? They love each other don't they? If they love each other why might it be wrong? This sort of behavior is only being held back by our old fashioned Judeo Christian heritage that says incest is wrong. Perversion only becomes more perverse. As the Bible says, "And their foolish hearts were darkened."

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:52 PM By Michael II
Rich: Just because it is legal doesn't make it right. Mens laws are just and right only when they reflect God's. And just because it makes money for the State, is that right also? What profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? As for me & my house...Yes on 8 I say this with love to you I hope you don't take it negatively or judgemental or disrespectfully or mean or etc.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:11 PM By RWH
Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that “the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.” In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:19 PM By Rich
RR, you're speaking your belief and your opinion, which I respect, but that's all it is. Your opinion is what you should run your life by, but it has little bearing on anyone else. I flat out disagree with much of what you write, but at the same time I admit I may be wrong. All I can do is live as I see fit in my heart and by my relationship with God. I categorically do not accept your notion that I am not a good Catholic. And I would never say such a thing about you. And whoa - you claim with such certainty to know God's will. That's dangerous ground. You should get some help with that anger of yours, my friend. Ronnie, the slippery slope argument shows your limited understanding of this issue. The one and only difference is a couple of same gender vs. opposite gender. No one is talking about siblings or cousins marrying or girl plus grandma or tables marrying dogs. That's silly. None of those things are legal now, and none of them need to become legal because of same sex marriage. It is about two consenting adults in love who happen to be of the same gender. Your paranoia about what this could lead to seems irrational. By the way, read Ezekiel 16:48-50 which lists the reasons Sodom was destroyed. Notably, homosexuality is not on the list. It really baffles me that folks get so bent out of shape about this. I don't want the Catholic Church to start marrying gay couples, but I don't understand the opposition to the legal part. I consider mine a compassionate attitude to support these folks who want to settle down into committed relationships. Besides, what business is it of mine? I don't see them telling me who I can or can't marry.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:40 PM By Richard
A massive interfaith demonstration parade in Escondido is proposed for mid October that would hopefully be synchronized with other statewide demonstrations in support of Sarah's Law Prop 4 and the Marriage Initiative Prop 8. Email me for details on how to organize your own parade.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:46 PM By Margie R
Here's another "Catholic" who has never read nor understood the Great John Paul II's Theology of the Body. The average homosexual has a lifetime partner count of over 500 separate individuals. They are not exactly monogamous. The majority don't live past 38 and a small minority make it past 65. Many die of anal cancer, a disease relatively unknown in the general population. One study shows that they really have no desire for marriage. They know they are promiscuous. They already possess all the rights that they seek. They just want to water down the meaning of heterosexual marriage so that they can say we are all the same. However, we are not. Marriage is the most important building block of society. It is the cell upon which society is built. Jerry Brown has never been one for embracing the truth, why should he start now?

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:06 PM By Ronnie
Why only two, Rich? Why stop there? Who are you to deny my love for my brother, or my girlfriend and boyfriend? That's discrimination, isn't it? What nerve you have to tell me who I can or can't marry. By the way, who decided it was only two consenting adults. And if "Sodom & Gomorrah" is not about sodomy, maybe you should first look up sodomy in the dictionary and then check out "Romans 1: 27....But hey Rich I'm still hoping for another St. Paul...I'll be praying for you...Love you.....

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:36 PM By John L. Sillasen
"And whoa - you claim with such certainty to know God's will. That's dangerous ground." (Rich): You gotta be kidding, right? You claim to be Catholic and not know God's will? Incredible! Rich, do you have any idea what the Catholic Church is?

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:41 PM By John L. Sillasen
Rich, here is the low down, which you evidently do not see: Your posts are founded upon doubt. Everything you say is an expression of doubt. Doubt is the opposite, ie the lack of faith. This is why your claim to Christianity is doubted, because you do not express any faith, either in yourself or anyone else, or when you read Catholic doctrine. If this is you, then own up to it; if, rather, you are playing some sly homosexualist political game, you will be found out soon enough.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:44 PM By John L. Sillasen
Regardless of what Fr Cozzens says, the Catholic priesthood is not changing, nor has it ever, nor shall it ever; to dream otherwise is delusional. The character or culprits in collars do not define the priesthood, but it is defined by God, as is the Church. The definition holds no matter what corruption tries to carry the day. Because a wolf can dress in sheep's clothing does not mean that sheep are changing, nor wolves.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:44 PM By Linda
Ezekiel 16:50 "And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me;therefore I took them away as I saw fit." Sounds like the Abomination God mentions in Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female: It is an ABOMINATION." 15 years ago the idea that any state in America would legalize Homosexual marriage was unthinkable. It is not a silly argument to wonder what perversion will be promoted next if California doesn't hold the line against what the Bible says is calling evil good and good evil.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:02 PM By RR
Rich: If you knew me, you would see that I am probably the most compassionate person you could ever meet; probably next to you, your wife and family. What I show is not anger, rather great sorrow. Sorrow, because the devil has led society and pretty good Catholics to believe that it is acceptable to be gay. My oppinion doesn't run my life. The will of God does. And yes, I do claim to know God's will and I live by every word He said. I do fail and I do sin as we ALL do, but I chose at the time to sin, but I knew it is wrong. I go to Confession and try to never commit the sin again as God said to do. I do have compassion for gay people, BUT NOT WHAT THEY DO. I come across gay people in society and I treat them respectfully as I would any other human being, but Catholics cannot accept their evil and deviant acts. What is society going to consider normal next; maybe allowing mother to marry son, father to marry daughter, threesomes, how about foursomes, allowing to marry. Don't you see that if this is accepted that society will fall apart. All these that I mentioned, plus more, will say they have legal rights. It's not silly when you said relatives marrying each other, girl plus grandma... It's not legal yet, but if every deviant says they have a right, then it will be on the ballot next. You watch. They will say if gays can marry and have a right then we do to. Give me my right. That is what the legal part is all about. If gays have a right so do I. The real compassionate attitude you should do to support these folks is to pray for their souls and not support them in their lustful sins. Their so-called committed relationships are evil, deviant, and sinful. Therfore, not to be accepted. As far as what business is it of mine; well alot. You should be praying for these sinners as Christ said to do. Ann they are not telling you that you can or can't get married because they have no right to because you are living a married, committed relationship as Christ meant it to be.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:16 PM By Paul Lopez
Rich, I happen to agree with absolutely everything that RR posted and I am not an angry person or have anger issues, and I would venture to guess that neither is RR. I also don't believe that there is any "paranoia" on his part simply because he feels that allowing this could open up a whole new can of worms with other groups of the "alternative lifestyle" persuasion. He is telling the truth. You can't tell me that so called "open marriages" don't exist.......disgusting in our eyes as Christians, but a reality nevertheless. You can't envision them one day trying to earn a "right" to marry into threesomes in order to take away the obvious unfaithfulness? Let's get down to the bottom line here okay? You say that you are a Catholic. Fine. Does your God, the Holy Trinity, approve of such unions, be them of a civil or religious nature? Of course not. Did he not call men and women to be fruitful and multiply? Then if that is the case, why opine contrary to your maker? Do you think that He approves this because, as you say, "it is about two consenting adults in love who happen to be of the same gender?" Once again, of course not. Homosexual acts are an abomination to his eyes and gravely contrary to nature and it's laws. You would do them and God more of a favor by adopting a "compassionate attitude" in a way that would kindly, or if necessary, bluntly guide them to God's truth regarding this topic. Therefore, if both the Old and New Testament's never mention anything about it's acceptance and neither do the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church of which you profess to be a member of, how is it possible you could approve it? I know we live in a democracy and not a theocracy, but, if I can borrow from RR, who are you going to ultimately serve.........God or Mammon? Case closed.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:39 PM By RWH
John L, So are you saying there are no homosexual priests in the Catholic priesthood? I do care what Fr. cozzens says and so do many others as well. Regardless of what you say, the priesthood is changing whether you like it or not.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:21 PM By Rich
Astonishing. The attitudes here...this is not at all the kind of compassionate Catholic I was raised to be or ever want to become. It's frightening! Where in California are your parishes that breed such bile? Now I'm beginning to understand why Catholics are getting a bad name and many are leaving the Church. I just can't believe what I'm reading. So much talk about sex. How about gay couples who don't have sex; would you all feel the same? Or is it just the sex act itself? I just don't understand. Ronnie, are you unable to see things other than in black and white only? My 8-yr old sees things with more depth. Linda, you really need to calm down. Do you realize how vicious you are being? Where does such hostility come from? And Margie R, your post is filled with outright falsehoods. Some of them are preposterous. How can you propagate such misinformation? Do you believe those things? Or do you hope to induce others to believe them? People who aren't sufficiently educated will believe them, and then even if your intentions are good you've done a disservice to us all. I wasn't going to say this because it's inflammatory and I didn't want to be that way, but some of the things I'm reading on here remind me of al Qaeda. Substitute Catholicism with Islam and the exact attitudes are what these extremist nutcases killing our troops sound like. I think I've stumbled on a forum much too fanatical for me. God gave me a conscience and sense of judgment for a reason and I intend to use them. This extremism does not make sense to me at all. I wish you all well but this place is not for me. I'm going to try to forget that this is a "Catholic" forum. But I will keep you in my prayers as best I can. Peace be with all of you.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:22 PM By Richard Rich
For media approval, Jerry? "It profits a man nothing to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul", but for the approval of the "homosexual community" in California? A.G. Moonbeam should have stayed out of politics and continued helping Mother Teresa with the poor!

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:41 PM By John L. Sillasen
RWH, God defines His Church, and His priesthood. Both of these are holy ... no matter what you or any perverts or corrupters choose to do, you simply do not have the power to alter what God has guaranteed. Wolves are wolves; sheep are sheep ... all you can do about it is pretend.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:43 PM By John L. Sillasen
Rich, your concept of compassion is way off; you've been deceived and are perpetrating your deception. Compassion does not stem from your personal or family understanding, but from God. Jesus is Love; you're not. What you need is faith.

Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:51 PM By Craig
Let's see, ex-Jesuit Attorney General helps Jesuit-educated Mayor Gavin Newsome (with the "Jesuit values" he attributes to Santa Clara University) promote same-sex "marriage." "God Talk" radio talk show host and ex-Jesuit Bernie Ward is indicted for child porn. What's wrong with "Jesuit education?!" St. Ignatius, pray for us.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:26 AM By RWH
John L, So you are telling me Fr. Cozzens is a pervert and a corrupter of his church and his faith. What makes you think you are more faithful to Jesus than Fr. Cozzens. Fr. Cozzens isn't trying to change the Priesthood. He is merely saying that it is changing and that it needs to be recognized so it can be understood and dealt with. Who gave you the authority to mandate your personal dogma on other faithful Catholics as the only truth of understanding on just about anything under the sun.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:14 AM By Harry
Synaxion: Your point regarding a disputed right is well taken. Brown's actons cannot stand scrutiny. If the constitutional right does exist, then it is wrong for him to allow a vote to "eliminate" it, since that can be done only by constitutional amendment. If it does not exist, then the wording, which is based on the assumption that is does, must be changed. In either case, it seems to me, the intitiative's constitutionality could be challenged later in court.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:09 AM By Fr. M.P.
Rich, God says homosexual lifestyles are a sin, and an abomination of a sin. Do you agree or not? If you look at your biology, you will know that such acts are unnatural uses of selected body parts. Do you reject biology?

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:28 AM By Candace M.
Rich: I don't know if you're still reading here but if you are please know you're not alone. I was raised in a family much like the folks posting here. They are good people but sometimes it bothered me deep down that to them being Catholic was like a contest of who could follow the rules best - to the point of sometimes losing sight of God's true light. It wasn't til I met my husband that I saw how judgemental and distracted I had been, living like that. My husband--you kind of remind me of him actually--helped me see the difference between the letter of the Word and the spirit of the Word. I've been a better more loving Catholic since knowing him (it is one of the reasons I fell in love with him!) and we're raising our kids to know that difference too. Don't let what you call "extreme" attitudes here get you down. Try to remember that like you they have the best of intentions and inside are just like you and me. We all are doing our best to live by the teachings of the Lord and what we have in common is much greater than whatever we might see differently.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:51 AM By John Amdersen
Does Jerry Brown really want the truth told? How about this for a title: "Homosexuals spread infectious diseases at twice the rate as heterosexuals. Stop homosexual marriage now." Do you think the homosexual community would sit quiet for that? They are hypocrites. It is time to storm the castle.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:43 AM By Peter
Tell me, dear John Anderson, would not homosexual marriage stop the alleged spread of infections diseases by homosexuals?

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:19 AM By Karen
Amen, Peter. And Fr. MP, what the heck is "an abomination of a sin"?? That doesn't even make sense. You're going off the deep end. You can not prove that some people being born homosexual isn't God's precise intention (for whatever reason, we do not know). You can not prove that, no matter what you say, because it's unprovable. Your words are beliefs, NOT facts. Since you do not know with certainty that homosexuality isn't somehow part of God's plan, you really should back off of things you are not an expert on. (How can any heterosexual person be an expert on homosexuality? Doesn't make sense.)

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:06 AM By Rick DeLano
The encouraging news here is the comments about the unreliability of the Field Poll. Obviously dialogue with the sodomites is a waste of time here. One side or the other is going to win in November, and it were devoutly to be wished that it not be the side of the militant antichrist sodomites. We can be very sure indeed that, if the militant antichrist sodomites prevail this November, the dismantling of the remnants of Christian decency in our society will proceed with great enthusiam and civic pride on the part of the sodomites, and also of those politicians able to draw the ineluctable democratic conclusions given such an (awful) circumstance. Since things will get very bad indeed for the actually, as opposed to nominally, Christian should the sodomites prevail in November, I suggest that some political genius be brought in to dramatically raise the visibility of the so-far invisible campaign for Proposition 8. I mean really, folks, so far this campaign has been utterly invisible. It is shocking how silent the airwaves and media are, when it comes to arguments or even mere political advertising in favor of Prop 8. What gives with that? When this antichrist attack on Christian civilization has been beaten back, then there will be plenty of time for dialogue with the sodomites and for pratice of that magnanimity which I am certain the Church will call us to extend in victory to the unfortunate victims of the homosexual disorder.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:50 AM By Rachel
I really don't know how a person can say gay marriage is a right that exists today. A court declaring a law unconstitutional does not establish its opposite as a right. Those are separate things. There's plenty of evidence to show no one ever extended an understanding of marriage to extend to same-sex couples before, not in this legal system. And you know, marriage is governed on a state level. That says something too about it's nature in U.S. law, like there's nothing about it being a generalized right. Harry: I don't follow your logic. If it is a constitutional right that would have to be changed by amendment, Brown must allow a vote - because that's how the amendment would be made. Margie: Uh, where did you get your stats? "The majority don't live past 38" - that just wouldn't be true, unless we're talking about an impoverished country where the majority of people period have shorter lifespans. I wholeheartedly agree that marriage and family is the fundamental building block of society, but I'm afraid someone has done you a disservice with these numbers.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:53 AM By Rachel
I really don't know how a person can say gay marriage is a right that exists today. A court declaring a law unconstitutional does not establish its opposite as a right. Those are separate things. There's plenty of evidence to show no one ever extended an understanding of marriage to extend to same-sex couples before, not in this legal system. And you know, marriage is governed on a state level. That says something too about it's nature in U.S. law, like there's nothing about it being a generalized right. Harry: I don't follow your logic. If it is a constitutional right that would have to be changed by amendment, Brown must allow a vote - because that's how the amendment would be made. Margie: Uh, where did you get your stats? "The majority don't live past 38" - that just wouldn't be true, unless we're talking about an impoverished country where the majority of people period have shorter lifespans. I wholeheartedly agree that marriage and family is the fundamental building block of society, but I'm afraid someone has done you a disservice with these numbers.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:23 PM By Rachel
Karen - I just thought I'd ask, you do know genetics plays a minority role in sexual orientation, right? The science is there now.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:36 PM By Gregorian
The problem with Brown's wording is it posits that there is a right to gay marriage written into the CA constitution, which of course there isn't.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 1:33 PM By Karen
Rachel, no I do not know any such thing. You are misinformed. Science does not have full understanding or certainty in this matter as of now, but the general concensus among neutral authorities is that genetics plays a very large role in human sexual orientation, not a "minority role." If you disagree, please cite a credible source for such an assertion. And Rick, "militant antichrist sodomites"?? Huffy name calling--what are you, five years old? If you're got a legitimate point to make at least make it in an adult and educated manner.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:59 PM By Rick DeLano
Hi Karen! "Militant"= committed, organized, actively engaged in the contest. "Antichrist"= opposed to Christ. Especially, in this instant case, opposed to Christ's teaching on marriage, as found in Matthew's Gospel and reproduced here: And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’[b] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” "Sodomites"= practitioners of the sin of Sodom, that is, the abomination of homosexuality. In other words, Karen, I meant, by "militant antichrist sodomites", to specificy, exactly, militant, antichrist, sodomites. Hope this helps.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 3:49 PM By Karen
Then you sound like a nutcase to me. Not a rational adult.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:09 PM By John L. Sillasen
Karen, the divine revelation of God, as found in the Holy Bible, Old Testament, in several places teaches us that the consequences of sin can stretch for several generations, ten or more in fact. So, a person might be a "living consequence" of the sin of a forefather, if that sin had never been expiated: St Paul teaches us that sodomy is the consequence of sin. Thus, a person can be born into such a consequence HOWEVER, the person has free will to resist committing the sin. The Church does not combat the irrelevant argument as to the cause of the temptation ... but teaches the cure, the healing, the making whole. Any sinner has the power and authority from God to stay sin free.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:31 PM By RWH
Jesus is talking about divorce and adultry not homosexuals or "militant antichrist sodomites". "The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,' and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." [Matthew 19

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:42 PM By Karen
Rick, more specifically I find your use of the word 'antichrist' way over the top. Just because you disagree with something does not make your opinion the all-powerful truth. You have no idea what others' relationship to Christ is, and I find it offensive that you can so rudely assert that you do. Hope this helps.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:50 PM By Karen
And, your use of "sodomites" is also rude and offensive. It reminds me of when gays call heterosexuals "breeders." It's shallow and childish. I mean, do you want to be known as a "breeder"? Is that all YOU are? So why treat others that way?

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:31 PM By John Andersen
Peter: Depending on which homosexual web site you read, their studies indicate that the typical male homosexual will have an average of 3-8 different sex partners per year. That's fidelity? One recent article said that most homosexuals view extra-marital affairs a lot more casually than do homosexuals. Some recent stats from Virginia and Mass (I need to go find them) showed that a quite small percentage of homosexuals in those states have elected to marry or join in civil union. My interpretation? They want nothing to do with fidelity or commitment. The same-sex marriage issue is only the current "battle line" for "progressives" to rewrite sexual norms.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:38 PM By John L. Sillasen
Karen, the Church provides us with many ways of discerning the relationship of an individual with Christ. You evidently live in a world of opinions, without the absolute truth ... without the Church, that is the norm. *** On the use of "sodomite", I typically use the word "homosexualist", but "sodomite" is a more blunt term. *** Karen, about viewing Christians as "nut cases", that goes right along with the nature of those not Christian. Christ is known as the "Sign of Contradiction" for a very good reason ... He is the truth and reveals to the world its contradiction to the truth.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:55 PM By John Andersen
Karen: Can you please point me to ANY current, credible scientific research that indicates homosexuality is caused by a biological condition? The more important question is not whether there is a biological cause, but whether it is a desirable behavior regardless of cause (it is not; it is a physically, emotionally, and spiritually destructive behavior). There is plenty of scientific evidence to show the medical/biological roots of violent behavior, and addictive/compulsive behavior. Does society call these behaviors right? What happens when researchers find a biological root for pedophilia -- are you going to call that "right" then?

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:15 PM By Rachel
Karen - Look up Drs. Niklas Lngstrm and Qazi Rahman, Queen Mary's School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm. They conducted the first truly population-based survey of all adult (20-47 years old) twins in Sweden. Genetics factored only 35% of the time. Granted, the Swedish are not unbiased, they are very pro-gay. On the other hand, that underscores the point. The study was reported at the end of last month. Stay current, dear.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:17 PM By Debra
35% of the time is a substantial amount. Much more than I had thought.

Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:00 PM By Stay Current
16 June 2008 NewScientist.com news service, Andy Coghlan. Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait. The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex. The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. "This is the most robust measure so far of cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual subjects. The results showed that straight men had asymmetric brains, with the right hemisphere slightly larger – and the gay women also had this asymmetry. Gay men, meanwhile, had symmetrical brains like those of straight women. Check it out. There is a lot more to read on this.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 6:35 AM By KennethDThom
John Andersen: I'm not "Peter" but you are being hypocritical. Assuming for a moment your "facts" are true, you are first bashing gay people for wanting to embrace fidelity (get married), and then bashing them for infidelity. Duh. You can't have it both ways. You are anti-gay no matter which way they turn, so don't pretend that you are justifying your anti-gay sentiments with "facts." How typical.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 7:07 AM By KennethDThom
John Andersen: I'm not "Peter" but you are being hypocritical. Assuming for a moment your "facts" are true, you are first bashing gay people for wanting to embrace fidelity (get married), and then bashing them for infidelity. Duh. You can't have it both ways. You are anti-gay no matter which way they turn, so don't pretend that you are justifying your anti-gay sentiments with "facts." How typical.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 7:25 AM By Loretta T.
Ive never written on one of these places before but I can't stay quiet. My youngest son is gay. That news caused a lot of turbulence in our family. I was counseled extensively by my wonderful priest and by my sisters one of who is a nun. Some years have passed now. My son has a college education (the first for our family), holds a very respectable and well paying job, has a strong faith and is active at our church and in our community. He served valiantly in the Marines, and of all my kids since he was little has always been the most thoughtful and responsible. I'm so proud of him. To hear some people on this internet page talk you'd think my son was some lost soul who needs to shunned or fixed or I don't know what. There's a lot I dont understand but I do understand this: my son shows more love and compassion in the world to me, my husband, our whole family and his friends than I sense from any of you. I don't know what makes you feel so angry or makes you feel you have the rght to judge all gay people so harshly but I can bet none of you has a child who is gay. I think you aught to be ashamed of yourselves.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 9:41 AM By JohnnyJohn
Mrs. L T: thank you for sharing that. You reminded me of something I have wanted to say. Those who have such a problem with gay people seem sickened by homosexuality. Well, a person's feelings are always real even when they are knee-jerk or unfair or whatever, so I can't blame them for what they feel. However, what sickens ME is that those same people have no problem with gay women and men like your son serving in the U.S. military, putting their own lives on the line for us back home, but when gay soldiers come home those people won't let them get a freakin legal marriage license. I can't even express how wrong that is. It's a legal contract! Get over your discomfort--you don't have to condone it or like it but at least be fair.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 9:54 AM By DAJR
Rachel - the Swedish are pro-gay? Where do you get this stuff?? I'm from Sweden and we're not "pro-gay."

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 10:09 AM By John L. Sillasen
Homosexual behavior is an abomination to God. How plain does it have to be stated. Anything, whether words or actions, contrary to this truth is neither love, compassion, kindness or any other virtue. Those who follow the divinely revealed words of God, no matter their imperfection, are those who are doing God's will. Those others, who defy God, are not, and their end is not Heaven.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 10:16 AM By Karen
Rachel, dear, while the study you cited did indeed determine genetics accounting for 35%, that same study also attributed 64% (essentially the remainder) to what it calls "environmental factors." It goes on to define environmental factors as "specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb." To me, that sounds like a majority of the determinates are out of an individual's control, or in other words nota choice. And if sexual orientation is out of an individual's control it seems very un-Christian to condemn them for it.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 10:17 AM By John L. Sillasen
Again, for the benefit of KennethDThorn, it does not matter the cause of homosexual behavior, it is an abominable sin. Persons struggling with such temptation have the power and authority to resist this temptation. To refuse to resist is to defy God. Those who while away their time "straining at gnats, while letting camels into their tents" are only burying themselves ever further in an evil pit. For example, so and so is the most loving and kind person ever, is the most courageous and just soul, makes all others seem mean in comparison ... and is gay and spends most days and nights in gay bathhouses regaling in such pleasures and pains ... This schtueck is so formulated by now, yet it continues to be ranted in ever newer appearances, dolled up in the best queenly attire, that the purpose becomes obvious, which is to carry on one of the ancient heresies, namely that God and the Devil are compatible.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 12:33 PM By Ed
The Church describes some homosexual behaviors (e.g. genital sex acts) as sin, but not all. Likewise, the Church describes some heterosexual behaviors (i.e. fornication, lust, etc.) as sin, but not all. "Sexual behavior" is a broad term that includes not only genital sex acts but can also include such acts as socializing, talking, holding hands, hugging, kissing, and other forms of affection which are not necessarily sinful at all. Being "dolled up in the best queenly attire" is not homosexual behavior. It's some sort of fetish that persons of any sexual orientation might be into. As to "bathhouses," heterosexuals have their forms of sexual bathhouses as well.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 12:54 PM By John L. Sillasen
"Fetish" is a fad psychological concept; dressing effeminately is a homosexual act. Holding hands between man and woman is not a sex act. See, this is what happens to the minds of degenerate homosexuals and others fast approaching that depth of evil ... their minds lose almost all sense of sense. As for the te ta te of bathhouse comparison: Here is another example of a homosexual attempting to justify his wickedness by saying that others are also wicked. Notice his implicit admission of guilt? This reflects the quandry of those who have no god but what they make up. They simply have no bearings in life, no solid ground to stand on, but are sitting ducks for the devils to play with.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 1:40 PM By Stay Current
Scientists have long thought this meant there should be differences in the brains of homosexuals. Brain scanning equipment has only recently become powerful enough to seek them out, however. In one study, researchers at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging at University College London used magnetic resonance imaging, or MRI, to look at the brains of 80 men and women, including 16 gay men and 15 lesbians. They found that lesbians had a “male-like” proportion and distribution of grey matter in their brain when compared with heterosexual women. In a paper published in the Public Library of Science, the researchers said: “In homosexual women the perirhinal cortex grey matter displayed a male-like structural pattern.” The perirhinal area is associated with social and sexual behaviour. In another study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Ivanka Savic of the Karolinska Institute, Sweden, asked 12 gay men, 12 heterosexual women and 12 heterosexual men to smell hormones found in male sweat while she measured their brain responses. She found that the anterior hypothalamus, an area linked to sexual behaviour, responded strongly in both heterosexual women and gay men. Straight men showed little response. This implies the brains of gay men have functional similarities to those of straight women. Savic also measured the brain responses of 12 lesbians who were asked to smell male and female hormones. The lesbians responded much more strongly to female hormones. The research suggests sexual orientation is largely programmed into people early in life, according to Savic.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 1:41 PM By Ed
JLS, "dressing effeminately" is a behavior many heterosexuals engage in, persons very much attracted to the opposite sex. Indeed, they even want to wear their clothing. It is thus not homosexual behavior. Homosexual behavior involves attraction to persons of the same sex, not wearing clothing commonly worn by the opposite sex. And I didn't say holding hands is a "sex act"! However, holding hands with someone because you're sexually attracted to that person is sexual behavior. As to your claim that I'm a "homosexual attempting to justify wickedness by saying others are also wicked," your tongue belongs to the devil. You are either a reckless speaker or you have poor reading comprehension. May God have mercy on you.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 1:47 PM By Anne T.
Loretta T., we probably all have relatives or know people who have a homosexual orientation. No one is out to "get" them. What we do protest is the homosexual acts because they are neither natural or heathy. Many homosexual gets cancers that are very uncommon among heterosexuals or celebate people, such as anal cancer or certain cancers of the mouth. This is what upsets people such as me. We cannot in due conscience tell anyone that homosexual sex acts are normal because certain parts of the body are just not made (or created) for sexual activity. Many of us are argry at the extreme some practicing homosexual people will go to make such behavior appear normal when it is not--such as so-called homosexual marriage. Most of us have no problem with single people giving the power of attorney for their healthcare to whomever they chose, or that they give their property when they die to whomever they chose, but they already have those rights, and that is all that they need. Now they have crossed the line is asking for "marriage" and trying to make people who oppose this feeling guilty. Well I, for one, do not feel guilty because it is they who are wrong not I.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 2:12 PM By Rachel
DAJR - Sweden has the second largest public approval ratings regarding the legalisation of same-sex marriage. 71% of Swedes regard same-sex marriage as a viable option in the near future. (From the Angus Reid Global Monitor.) Only Kristdemokraterna has been saying no to same-sex marriage. The Church of Sweden, altho it reserves the word "marriage," has OK'd same sex weddings. You say you're from Sweden and "we" are not "pro-gay." So who are all these people in your country? People bussed over the border for voting and polling? Karen - Since we were talking science, you have to be tighter than that. The subject was limited to the role of genetics. You should know a "biologically fixed trait," such as Stay Current mentioned, doesn't mean it's genetic. You should also know that our neurology remains plastic to a degree, even when it is "fixed." If it didn't, and mankind did not believe in and hope for an ability to change it, it would be the death of much medicine, religion, and self-help publishing. And since we are talking Catholicism, orientation is not the issue. No one is "going to hell" for "being" gay. People "go to hell" for being unchaste and reducing the scope of marriage, "be" they gay or straight. Lastly, the mere existence of an impulse in no way means it's OK to act on it; if it were otherwise, we'd all be slapped every day or worse.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 4:38 PM By Loretta T.
Anne, Why on earth do you care? My son is single but weve talked about this. You are mistaken, he does not have those rights. I suppose it is possible to attain some or most of them but at great legal expense and trouble, something none of us have to even think about because it's automatic with a marriage certificate. Poof, just like that. How is that fair to you? Or will you only be fair to people you approve of? My son risked his life for you, yet your disgust with a sex act of someone else makes you feel smug enough to talk the way you do. He is probably just as disgusted with sex acts we do but he's not being horrible to you over it. Its none of each others business. I don't talk to him about such things so why do you insts to make it an issue? Do you want your marriage certificate to depend on whether someone else approves of what happens in your bedroom? If those acts bother you that much don't do them, for Heaven's sake don't think about them. You don't have to approve, no one is asking you to. Just get out of the way and mind your own business. I can't understand you. My ears are burning just thinking about this.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 4:44 PM By DAJR
Rachel-what you describe is not "pro-gay" it is respect, acceptance and tolerance of others when it is none of our concern. You make it sound as if all Swedes are standing on street corners trying to preaching the virtues of being gay.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 5:01 PM By DAJR
And Rachel, what makes you believe what gay people do is your business in the first place? Who cares! You don't have something better to do with your time? Don't you have your own life to take care of? I think that's what bugs people like me the most, is that some feel it is their business to put their personal stamp of approval on what others do. I don't think gay people give a hoot what you think of them.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 5:57 PM By John L. Sillasen
Such terms as homosexual, heterosexual, effeminate, cross dresser and all sorts of things are not the issue. The issue is sin. Effeminate men will not enter Heaven according to the Church doctrine (St Paul, for example). Effeminacy, and cross dressing have to do with the sexual nature ... any distortion of it puts one in the category other than normal. But "normal" is a relative word also; take for example the ancient town of Sodom, where everyone was normal except for the God worshiping Abraham and Lott and their families ... but they followed the advice of God, and did not quibble over the meaning of words. That is a big problem with relativists, the meaning of words ... because they do not have a solid foundation to stand on, namely absolute truth. It is absolutely true that homosexual action, effeminate attitude and manner, cross dressing, and other things are sins of the first water ... those involved in them will not enter Heaven, but first must turn from their sin to exercise any hope at all.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 6:02 PM By John L. Sillasen
The demonic idea of "right to privacy" put into the Constitution by wicked votes of evil justices fullminate in the rhetorical schtueck described in words such as, "what gay people do is your business in the first place", and other such junk philosophy. All the world is God's business: Note the story of Cain who murdered his brother after being seduced by the devil ... Cain hid from God ... God knew exactly where and what Cain was doing ... the Church is God on earth, ie the Mystical Body of Christ, Who is God: Thus the Church not only knows that this argument seeking to justify hiding from God is a lie. It is the business of the Church to teach the truth and to discipline the world. This is obviously not the easiest task ever to face man, but has been ongoing now for two millenia and continues to cover ground. Homosexualists can disguise themselves all they want but they cannot hide from God, nor any of God's people who shine a light into that darkness.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 6:05 PM By John L. Sillasen
Now, on the question of a homosexualist risking his life for the benefit of others ... the proud boast of this tends to elevate such a person to the status of Jesus Christ Who died for us. To challenge this trumped up exaltation and glory of some mere human being, and one in a state of the gravest of sins, seems to warrant the wrath of those who would make idols out of depraved sinners.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 8:45 PM By John Andersen
KennethDThom: The facts are the facts -- the homosexual communities in Virginia and Mass are not choosing to join in civil marriage. The research on number of partners per year is from sites like gay.com. Your own people are presenting the data on lack of fidelity. I have been saying for nine months now that I believe that homosexual sex and relationships are not good for the individual and not good for the community at large. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. It makes me consistent. The greatest hypocrisy exists in the leadership of the homosexual movement who yells at me to be tolerant of their views, yet they have refused to make the slightest effort to respect mine. That is hypocrisy.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 9:38 PM By Ed
"Effeminate" means soft, giving in easily to pressure. like a finger pressing on a ripe peach. Some examples: #1. A man who is a pushover with respect to his duties at work is effeminate, even if he's a big, burly and very heterosexual. #2. A big burly heterosexual man who easily falls for a woman's deceitfulness is effeminate (e.g. Adam was effeminate in that regard). #3. A heterosexual man of strong intellectual abilities who persistently subscribes to cliches and stereotypes about gays is effeminate. Meanwhile, a man who wears what a majority would consider to be women's clothing and perserveres despite the jeers he receives is not necessarily effeminate. Nor must he be effeminate if he and another man were to obtain a civil marriage license for nonsexual purposes.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 10:24 PM By Anne T.
Loretta, when society or people vote for so-called same-sex marriage, it puts society's stamp of approval on homosexual acts. That I cannot do, and many others in this state feel the same way. We can no sooner put our stamp of approval on homosexual acts, then we can approve of a father marrying his daughter, or a mother marrying her son, or a brother marrying his sister, or a mother marrying her daughter, or a man marrying his son, or someone marrying their aunt or uncle. And if you do not believe that there are some people who do such horrible things with their children or relatives then you have not read some of the columns in major newspapers lately. I won't go into detail, but one columnist reported that she got an e-mail from a woman saying she and her daughter saw through their window the nextdoor neighbor in bed with her own son, and asked the columnists advice on what she should do about it. The couple were so brazen that they did not even cover their window. Things such as this have been taking place in certain cities during the gay and lesbian festivals also--right outside. Sometimes even heterosexuals were involved. I am not saying that every homosexual and lesbian does this, and certainly most mothers and fathers do not behave this way, but these are things no decent person can encourage or approve. I am not a fan of this columnist, but I am sure she was not lying about the letter she received. As liberal as she is, she was appalled. It that is what this society has come to? God help us! we are going to need it.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 10:32 PM By Anne T.
By the way, the son in my last e-mail about the letter to the columnist was an adult male.

Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 10:50 PM By Kay
Loretta T.....you are right and it really doesn't do any good to try to talk to most of these people. They will only drag you down with them into the abyss. I have known many gay men and women and most of the people on this website will have to do a lot of praying and asking for forgiveness to ever be worthy to kiss their.......

Posted Saturday, August 02, 2008 12:52 AM By RWH
John L, So now your telling everyone that every American that served in the military at the time of a war is up staging Jesus for being crucified on the cross for our sins. How do come up with this stuff? That's just not right.

Posted Saturday, August 02, 2008 12:47 PM By tedn
JLS - I am missing something from your "risking his life" post. So you say, when a "homosexualist" risks his life, he is elevating himself to the status of Jesus. What about a heterosexual who risks his life to benefit others? By your logic, wouldn't he also be elevated to the level of Jesus? What does sexual orientation have to do with that? (I am only referring to the first part of your post, not the second.) Are you really saying that "homosexualist" policemen, firemen, soldiers, etc., are being likened to Jesus, while heterosexual ones are not? I have never heard of any such instances.

Posted Saturday, August 02, 2008 1:02 PM By John L. Sillasen
Ed, reality is waiting for you to knock on its door.

Posted Saturday, August 02, 2008 1:05 PM By John L. Sillasen
Kay, you pretty much let the cat out of the bag by depicting Catholics in some sex act with your friends, the homosexualists. As I've stated, your vituperative scenario making, ie caracaturing of Catholics as anything but, is second rate to what many faithful have experienced. I'm thinking you must be a very young woman without much experience or knowledge, but with great angst for perversion.

Posted Saturday, August 02, 2008 1:19 PM By John L. Sillasen
RWH, thanks for calling me on my poor wordcraft. I did not mean that at all. The military does a great service for mankind, and is ordained by God. What I meant to say was that the woman seeks to justify her son's homosexual activity by his military involvement. This is what I'm criticizing, the perpetrating of disgrace to military service. Even moreso, her words seem to exalt her son's homosexuality to the point that it somehow protects society, or saves our civilization: This kind of inuendo of hers rubs up against making an idol out of homosexualism, placing it up next to the real and true Savior. It is a subtle point to be found in her post, but it is there, whether she intended it or not. I'd guess she did, from the tone of the rest of it. Again, there is no excuse for homosexual behavior, no matter how socially important the person doing it: Great case in point involves sin far less grave than homosexualism. King David wanted the wife of one of his generals, so he sent his general to the front hoping he'd die there. Then he continued to commit adultry with Bathsheba. God took him to task for it; David repented, but the temporal damage followed in tragic measures. This woman's son has no apparent desire to repent, but rather flaunts his sin. Remember Gen Patton, who was upbraided for berating a hospitalized soldier in shock? Why should this woman's military vet son be seen to carry a shoe lace to Patton? The military owes nothing to homosexualism, but everything to God.

Posted Saturday, August 02, 2008 7:03 PM By tedn
The military owes everything to the American taxpayer.

Posted Sunday, August 03, 2008 4:28 PM By RWH
John L., How do you come up with this stuff. At least this time you are showing some tolerance for General Patton. I'm sure you know he believed in reincarnation. the Mother of the homosexual Marine does not have to worry about the nonsense you just wrote about her son and her. He was born of a faithful Catholic family that loves him. He is also a citizen of this country and is guaranteed every right under the Constitution that you are. He fought for the same thing that all other military personnel does for it's country, and that is for you to express yourself about his family and sexual orientation using your church dogma to condemn him and his mother. I know you won't turn from the way you think or others that agree with you. According to the Mother the Catholic Church has helped her family and it appears that they are satisfied how that took place. So what's your beef?

Posted Sunday, August 03, 2008 10:53 PM By Anne T.
Loretta T., my husband and I are from working class families, and we are not rich by any means. He came from a family of eleven, and I came from a family of four. Many times his siblings did not have a lot to eat. Neither his parents nor his siblings were ever on welfare, though. They worked at whatever decent, though often menial, job they could get, and so has my husband and I. We have a will that we had to pay an attorney to draw up. If we had to pay for such things, along with taking care of our children, what is wrong with your single son paying for them? Also, in many states there has actually been a marriage tax on married people, which was unfair. Your son is entitled to benefits from his military service, but he is not entitled to a "free" will or a "free" power of attorney being drawn up. And Loretta no one, I mean no one, unless they are Jesus Christ or a test tube baby came into this world without the sexual act of a man and a woman. That is normal so if your son is disgusted by that, too bad.

Posted Sunday, August 03, 2008 11:03 PM By John L. Sillasen
RWH, the reason you do not understand what my "beef" is, is that you see things from a perspective the exalts the secular world over the eternal world. I explained clearly that God does not respect a sinner, eg a homosexual, even if that sinner was put on the greatest throne in this world up to that time, vis a vis King David. The man in question has a mother whose posts reflect otherwise. God is a jealous God, and has many who will point this out. That is what I am doing. You failed to grasp the point I made regarding Patton ... so what if he was a pagan?, he served my argument as a secular parallel to the clear and oft taught spiritual example. King David disgraced himself abyssmally, but not nearly so gravely as the hero you are championing. Moses was denied the Promised Land because he got impatient and struck a rock twice instead of once ... and here you are greater than God in your exaltation of some average man whose homosexuality you justify by his military service. That is an affront to the meaning of Christianity.

Posted Sunday, August 03, 2008 11:13 PM By John L. Sillasen
tedn, the way it works is this: The rulers wage war, sue for peace and build kingdoms. This is how Jesus explains it. It is also explained by the fundamental problem of economics called, "guns versus butter"; it is also noted as "swords and plowshares ... in that both exist and the proportion varies according to the rulers. Rulers levy taxes ... if you want to rule, then start collecting the tax you need. Now here is the tough part: if you want God to rule, then you have to pay tax both to the secular ruler and to God. As to your claim that the military owes everything to the taxpayer ... I appreciate the sentiment ... the days of the US Constitution were glorious ones. The question at this moment is whether the end has begun; and what the new type of society will be. After all, the western form of democratic government (commoners voting) was a first, was based on Christianity, and is now changing historically into something else. Will the change hold, or will natural and supernatural forces keep it under the control of the taxpayer? I'm not advocating here, but trying to see what is happening.

Posted Sunday, August 03, 2008 11:40 PM By John L. Sillasen
RWH, you are the first person to ask me how I come up with this stuff. Great question. You're looking for the authority of what I'm saying ... so, what's to fret about? Either it is true or it is not ... now how are you going to decide which it is? Why does the military fight? You say love of country. But that is one opinion, an idealistic one based not on Catholicism. Recall that Catholicism posits the Just War Theory, which means that a country is not necessarily the thing a military fights for. The Crusades, eg, were not fought for any particular country but for Catholicism. Al Quaida is not a country, yet its soldiers fight hard. Many armies fight for money: Hessians in the Revolutionary War, Civilian contractors in Iraq, ever heard the word, "mercenary"? There are armies fighting now which fight for drug money ... nothing to do with countries at all. Men fight because it is part of our inheritance from the Fall, and fight as soldiers because we have rulers who organize it that way, due to better society building ... look around at various armed conflicts in the world ... then tell me that soldiers always fight for their country. Don't forget to consider soldiers who fight for the booty they expect to get from their conquered foes. Soldiers fight to defend themselves and loved ones, including on occasion their countries. Men fight; such warfare can be justified but not always. The military is part of the world and has its role; it's role is not the salvation of man, nor the justification of sin. Only a relativist would believe such a thing. Catholicism is not relativist.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 7:20 AM By Julie
Mr. Silasen, what would you have gay people do? If it were up to you - should they all commit suicide? Or maybe go live in another country? Or would you prefer they all enroll in some kind of shock therapy that zaps them whenever they have a sexual thought? Do you advise they all take vows of celibacy? I'm curious what your preferred course of action is.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 10:07 AM By KennethDThom
John Andersen, my point is that you seem very sickened by infidelity. I understand that, and that's fine. But to me if gay couples seek committed, monogamous partners for life and want a civil marriage certificate (issued by a secular government, by the way) then I'd think you'd support that. Wouldn't it be likely to address the lack of fidelity that bothers you so much? How can infidelity among gay people descrease when they don't have the same societal structure as straight people within which to foster fidelity? Maybe hypocrisy in my last post was not the right word; duplicitous is more appropriate.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 10:18 AM By Grisha
Julie: The Catholic Church - thank God - has never gotten into the reparative therapy business. The Catholic Church does teach that gay and lesbian people are called to celibacy. However, it is an extremely difficult call and most homosexual Catholics are unable to answer it. How then do we relate to them and, especially their children. The position of the mainstream Church in America is stated in the Bishop's letter "Always our Children," and is expressed through ministries such as the one described in this article. This is consistent with our pastoral and evangelization tradition of meeting someone where they are. Some of the people on this forum believe in the fundaments Protestant approach that when we meet someone and it comes out in conversation that they are gay, our relationship with them ought to focus almost exclusively on that part of their person and telling them over and over again it's sin, they'll go to Hell etc, etc.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 4:01 PM By JR
Anne T, I think the benefits that woman was talking about are the things that come with legal marriage, like hospital visitation and decision making, inheritance issues, health insurance, avoidance of estate taxes, and pension and social security survivorship benefits. These and other protections and benefits are granted to your spouse as soon as they become your spouse, for free. You don't have to lift a finger or even think about it. (Without an explicit will as you've had made, most states defer to a spouse-inherits-all policy.) Even after living for years or even decades together gay couples have none of these benefits or protections. In the eyes of the law they are essentially strangers. Sometimes this leads to stories that are heartbreaking.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 6:08 PM By John L. Sillasen
Julie, it is you saying they should commit suicide, but you suggest it is I. That is one of the problems with homosexualism, lack of a sense of who says what or who does what. St Paul explains that adultry unites one with many others ... hence, active homosexuals as well as other adulterers become confused, and lose their identities, sort of seeing themselves as all one and the same. That may explain why you tack your suicide wish on me ... I have not recommended suicide under any circumstances. It is so simple to find out "what to do", as you ask. Do exactly what Jesus says to do, which is do not commit sex acts. You can do this under your own power, although extremely difficult; or you can easily do this through faith in Jesus Christ. If you go through Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, it may be even easier. Your ideas of celibacy are exactly the right ideas ... although making a vow informally is hardly the thing to hang a hat on ... Jesus or Mary live ... vows don't. Choose life. Make it your choice, and not some seducer's choice.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 6:11 PM By John L. Sillasen
KennethDThorn, whether it's hypocricy you mention in your post or anything else is irrelevant, because the problem is your lack of being open to God. Solve that problem first, and then all else will fall into place and you'll experience the joy of the Lord.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 6:14 PM By John L. Sillasen
Grisha, you've finally defied the Magisterium with "most homosexual Catholics are unable to answer" the call to celibacy taught by the Catholic Church -- assuming that this is what you mean. All men and women are able to cease their sins, and with Jesus it is actually easy. The problem is the will of the typical homosexualist who refuses to hear or follow the will of God.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 7:30 PM By KennethDThom
Mr. Silasen, with all due respect I wasn't addressing you. It's pretty clear from your posts the answer anyone will get from you no matter what the question. Your view has been noted.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 7:57 PM By Julie
JLSilasen, slow down. Read my post. I didn't suggest anything of you. I asked you a simple question. Thank you for (eventually) answering it. Part of why I asked is because you speak so much more harshly about gay people than I was ever taught. I was taught that, "Mindful of the inherent and abiding dignity of every human person" the Catholic bishops have reaffirmed that "homosexual persons, like everyone else, should not suffer from prejudice against their basic human rights. They have a right to respect, friendship and justice. They should have an active role in the Christian community" (Human Sexuality, #55; To Live in Christ Jesus, #52). The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided" (#2358). From the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech, or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs" (Letter to the Bishops of the World on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, #10). As a Catholic, don't these teachings mean anything to you? I can't imagine why gay people make you so exceedingly agitated. It's remarkable. And in light of the number of priests who have trouble with celibacy I'd think you would be a little more realistic and patient with the failings of non-priest Catholics, let alone gay people at large who might not be Catholic or even Christian.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 10:33 PM By John L. Sillasen
Right, Julie, but I do not address homosexuals who are celibate and not pushing the gay agenda ... no need to, since they are following God's law on the issue. You are in effect accusing me of violent malice, but there is nothing in my posts to support your accusation. If you cannot imagine why gay people agitate me, then read the stories and lessons in Holy Scripture which put a candle to your insufficient treatment of both homosexual activity and the bishops. The bishops do not condone homosexual activity, and they do not condone injustice done to homosexuals whether celibate or sinful: Your attempt to justify homosexual activity by short sheeting the bishops' statement and by accusing me of violence and malice falls under the sins of idolatry and calumny. Homosexual activists need for the sake of their souls to be taught that they must at all costs turn from their sin. It is an either/or issue; either they stop, or the die the eternal death of Hell. Read more what the bishops write, and you'll see the fullness of what I'm driving at. There are souls saved by quiet gentle voices, and there are those saved by loud and clear voices ... the Gospel is good either in season or out. The sinner does not control the savior's efforts, but must subject himself or herself to the Church's saving efforts ... no other way. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord ... and as St Paul also says, the tongue is like a rudder and directs the whole ship ... you are what you pray: Hence, homosexual activists are not specially dispensed from repentance, but have no option but to bow and confess ... it is the way to healing, to removing the temporal effects of sin, and to salvation.

Posted Monday, August 04, 2008 10:42 PM By John L. Sillasen
Julie, you claim, "And in light of the number of priests who have trouble with celibacy". How would you know the number of priests having trouble with celibacy? This faux pas of yours is one more clue to your involvement of idolatry, by which I mean to say that you place yourself in the papal throne, interpreting episcopal documents in errant ways, accusing those who don't as violent malefactors. The homosexualist agenda repeats this same mantra, that faithful Catholics who seek to correct sinful homosexuals are being unjust and malicious. The exact opposite is the fact ... Faithful Catholics seek always to help others, regardless of spiritual state, to achieve a closer walk with Jesus. The emotive issue concerning homosexualism is its extreme distance from the close walk with Jesus ... almost more distant than hypocricy in high places. Drowning people tend towards injuring their rescuers, who have been trained to watch out for it. Yet they still continue to rescue drowning people. Same deal with homosexual activists and the Church, Who always tries to save people sinking towards Hell.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 6:46 AM By Grisha
John L.: The majority of people the Church teaches are called to Ca celibacy (The not necessarily permanently) are single people. Many, maybe most, of them can't always respond to the call either. As we go through life we try, we fail and we try again.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:15 AM By John L. Sillasen
So, KennethDThorn, you should be addressing the truth. But, what are you addressing instead?

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:57 AM By KennethDThom
I am address my truth, just as you are. I'm your equal.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:50 AM By Anne T.
JR, that is not totally true. Even though my husband and I have a will, which was drawn up at our own expense by a lawyer, the state can still take more money from us and our descendants than certain other options that we are considering. All of which would or will cost us money from our own pockets. By the way, my husband served in the military also. Marriage was meant to protect children, which ideally should have both a mother and a father. To purposely deny children such, I believe and the Church teaches, is terribly selfish. I was from a broken home myself and so was my husband, so the old canard that it does not affect children is just that--a canard. I thank God that at least my grandfather filled in for my father. Although, I believe that my grandparent's initial dislike for my father led to my mother's divorce from him. My grandmother had been divorced too, and my father was from a similar ethnic and religious group as her first husband--different from hers and my grandfater's. They did not like my mother's second husband either. By the time our youngest daughter was old enough to marry, I was wise enough to tell her to marry a man whom her father liked. She did. He even asked her father's permission to marry her even though she was well over legal age. There is something to be said for the old tradtions. I think they most often led to better marriages.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:14 AM By JR
Anne T. - You should check into a living trust rather than a will. For the purpose you describe, it is probably a much better option for you and your family.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:41 AM By John L. Sillasen
Grisha, to say that anyone cannot or is unable to respond to the call to follow God's law is to defy the Magisterium. I just moments ago read this very thing in a book, Sirach (Ecclesiaticus 24), when I had looked for something else. There is no excuse for sin ... none; to claim otherwise is sin, and is to be in error, and to not ascertain this is slothful. I suspect this new information you find, because I'm sure you will research it fully, will rock your boat ... you will lose friends, you will be rejected but only because you will be doing the work of truth. So, fasten your seatbelt and full steam ahead. The key, as so much of it is, is Blessed Mary Ever Virgin. But you have to search, because I'm finding some of this truth of Her to be greatly suppressed. And I suspect that is why it puzzles you, having been suppressed for generations in your neck (necks) of the woods, as pretty much all over. As I've stated often, Catholics raised in the Church are clueless as to the utter absence of their presence in much of society ... I bear witness to this; although I do not know how it is today, since I've been one for 29 years. But it was a journey of decades for me to find the Catholic Church ... when you disguise Catholicism, by watering it down, by "mushifying" it, you hide it. As any other sin, this suppression will weigh heavily on countless many at the Pearly Gates.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:48 AM By John L. Sillasen
KennethDThom, God gave you your existence, which is unique, you are equal to nobody but yourself. Also, when you say, "my truth", this is called relativism, and is neither Catholic, nor truth.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:03 PM By KennethDThom
You are so full of yourself! Isn't that a sin too?

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:17 PM By John L. Sillasen
KennethDThom, you just can't help calling people names, slurring them, can you? Why don't you do your homework and quit complaining about not understanding. I am not the reason you do not understand; you are. It is your responsibility to understand, exercise it.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:26 PM By Stay Current
Ada Yardeni and Binyamin Elitzur published in 2007 ("Document: A First-Century BC Prophetic Text Written on a Stone: First Publication," Cathedra 123, in Hebrew) a fascinating text of an apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, that they suggest calling "Hazon Gabriel" (the Vision of Gabriel). Based on its linguistic features, they date the text, written in Hebrew on stone, to the late first century BCE. This suggestion is corroborated by the paleographic evidence which points to the late first century BC or the early first century AD. Hazon Gabriel confirms my thesis that the belief in a slain and resurrected messiah existed prior to the messianic activity of Jesus. The publication of this text is extraordinarily important. It is a discovery that calls for a complete reassessment of all previous scholarship on the subject of messianism, Jewish and Christian alike.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:48 PM By Chris
JLS - Wow, is this website the Sillasen Daily or what? Boy, you are something. Everyone else is misguided, or sinning, but you have it all figured out. Gee, good thing we all have your perfect example to shine a light for us on what is right and what is wrong. It sounds as if you think the only reason God gave you a conscience was to find out if you'd use it to follow a single, narrowly-defined path. And that the person who most righteously defines the path is the correct one. Well you win! Congratulations! I, for one, believe God endowed me with a conscience and sound (but evolving) judgment so I could use those gifts to apply His general teachings to each situation I encounter. In other words, I believe I have a brain so I can use it to discern the endless shades of gray rather than force everything to be either black or white. That's what I think advances us and brings us all closer to God. I mean really, if we do it your way Mr. Sillasen, full of stringent rules and one-way streets, wouldn't we all just become carbon copies of what you are? And if so, then to what end? How would humanity ever advance if we all lived and died like an army of sameness, all making the precise same decisions and interpretations (the "right" ones, the ones you advocate), with one single path and no room for discretion on the part of the individual? I can't believe that's what God wants. We'd be useless clones of each other. In any event, the vast majority of people in our great big wonderful world do not see things quite as narrowly as you, Mr. Sillasen.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:06 PM By Anne T.
Thank you, JR, we are considering that.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:51 PM By RR
Chris: The way to Heaven is the straight and narrow path. God didn't give you a conscience to make decisions. He gave you free will to form your conscience. You can choose to do right or you can choose to do wrong. Your conscience is not always what is right. Your decisions do have to be black and white. Something is either a sin or it's not. Something is not almost a sin. If you stay in the gray area as far as sin, then that is what Christ calls the lukewarm area. Christ wants to vomit the lukewarm. Those aren't my words, but Christ's words. When it comes to Christ, we ALL have to follow His stringent rules and one way streets. God gave the Church it teachings and rules to be followed by ALL and be carbon copies of HIM(CHRIST). When you follow Christ there is no room for your own personal disgression. You either do what God says to do, or you don't. That is an example of what I said that you form your conscience based on your free will. How great this world would be if all of humanity lived by Christ's stringent rules and one way streets. We would all be like Christ. What more could we ever ask for; to be clones of Christ. Unfortunately, we don't because people choose their personal interpretations based on their own conscience and not Christ's words and teachings. It's too bad the world doesn't see things so narrowly. The world would be a much better place. This world is not a great big wonderful place. If it was there would be no sin. There is sin because man follows his own conscience instead of Christ's words and teachings.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 6:58 PM By John L. Sillasen
Stay Current, your thesis of a slain and resurrected Messiah was put down on paper long before your paleographic stone writing popped up. Around 1000 BC, David's Psalms described it. The Prophets told of it. St Mary Magdalene ran to explore the tomb ... why? Because deep within her she knew. How did she know? A. Prophetic knowledge had long since been integrated into the fabric of Jewish life, and B. Jesus explained it all on the level of faith. Remember also, that there was one other witness who knew. There were several, even. St John the Baptist knew ... it was he who was foretold would be back ... Elijah, according to Jesus, and prophetically placed in the Seder ritual. Before those saints, Moses knew. Before Moses, Abraham knew. But how do you tell people of "little faith"? Read Scripture and see how God spelled it out. Only a few generations after Adam and Eve, Enoch knew ... for he walked and talked with God and did not die, but was taken up like Elijah.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:09 PM By John L. Sillasen
Chris, your "everyone else" "sharing" religion is not mine. You write as though you believe I'm after followers. This is not true, and I post it all the time by referring to the Church and Her Magisterium, and the Saints. Go to the highest sources, Chris. That's all I'm pointing out. But what I find, increduously, is that there are many who do not have the remotest notion that they can do this. So they rail on those who do know, from experience and from faith. The way you get close to God is through faith; your intellect is not going to get you there ... it's been tried and come up short: St Thomas Aquinas simply said that all his works (his intellectual work) was "as straw" compared to the faith given him by God. God gives each of us faith ... that is what can pick up a mountain and move into the sea (Jesus) ... you cannot do that with your intellect. Work with faith for a while, and then read what I've written; there is nothing I've written that matches your allegations of what I've written. Faith will take you beyond your own intellect and give you a view you cannot otherwise achieve.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:43 PM By Chris
Wow.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:56 PM By Chris
I trust my God-given ability to navigate those shades of gray successfully in His name. I trust it for the very reason that it is God-given. And I would argue that there most certainly are "almost sins." That is the difference between us, sir.

Posted Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:26 PM By John L. Sillasen
RR: "God didn't give you a conscience to make decisions. He gave you free will to form your conscience." Awesome!!! +++ Something I think is important to add for the benefit of those who are of the impression that the straight and narrow path required by Christ reduces the joy of what one can find in one's life; but the way it really is, is that with Christ one has all the resources for living that God makes available ... and these resources far outweigh and outnumber anything that any one person or any number of persons can come up with on their own. Outside of the mind of Christ one can find only severe limitation; within the mind of Christ, one finds not only the bounty of this world but of the next. Freedom to think and to imagine is far greater ... greater without measure ... in Christ than otherwise. Think about this Chris; then consider faith.

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:45 AM By Chino Blanco
Jennifer Kerns is quoted in the article as a spokeswoman for 'ProtectMarriage.com - Yes on 8', but the question I'd like to ask is: Is Jennifer even married? Does she have children? She's being quoted here as the lead spokeswoman of a campaign to deny the benefits of marriage to real parents raising real kids. I'm straight, married, and like to think my wife and I are raising a couple of great kids. If you're going to convince me to deny the benefits of marriage to gay parents, I need to hear from someone who brings some actual personal experience with caring for a family of their own. I suspect that Jennifer Kerns is, in fact, single. If so, how about Jennifer leaving the business of "protecting marriage" to those of us who've actually chosen marriage?

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:46 AM By Jean
People say that homosexuality is "deviant" or "immoral," and justify this by saying that "God forbids it." They state that the "proof" that it is forbidden by God lies in passage 18:22 of Leviticus, which states: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination." What these people then fail to realize is that there are many, many "laws" in the Bible that in today's day and age, seem absolutely absurd. For instance: Exodus 21:7 says that a man may sell his daughter as a slave. Exodus 21:17 declares that anyone who reviles or curses their mother or father shall be put to death. Exodus 21:20 states that a man may beat his slave to death, and if it takes the slave a few days to die, then the man shall not be punished, because the slave was his property. Exodus 22:3 orders that a man caught in the act of stealing must be sold into slavery if he cannot make full restitution for his debt. Exodus 35:2 says that anyone who works on the Sabbath day must be put to death. Leviticus 11:7 declares that the eating of pork is forbidden. Leviticus 11:10 states that eating shellfish is an abomination. Leviticus 15:18 states that after a man and woman have sexual intercourse, they are considered defiled until the next evening. Leviticus 15:20 says that if a woman is having her period, anything she sits on or lies on is considered dirty. Leviticus 19:27 says men may not cut their hair or trim their beard. Leviticus 19:19 admonishes us not to wear clothing that is a mixture of two different materials. Leviticus 24:10-16 says that anyone who blasphemes the Lord's name shall be stoned to death. I could go on and on citing examples of archaic Biblical law, but my point is this: how many devout Catholics really believe they must follow ALL of God's laws? Science has proven that homosexuality has a biological base--it is not merely a "choice." Get over your homophobia and fear--this is about equal rights and treatment under the law--period!!!

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:52 AM By Jean
People say that homosexuality is "deviant" or "immoral," and justify this by saying that "God forbids it." They state that the "proof" that it is forbidden by God lies in passage 18:22 of Leviticus, which states: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination." What these people then fail to realize is that there are many, many "laws" in the Bible that in today's day and age, seem absolutely absurd. For instance: Exodus 21:7 says that a man may sell his daughter as a slave. Exodus 21:17 declares that anyone who reviles or curses their mother or father shall be put to death. Exodus 21:20 states that a man may beat his slave to death, and if it takes the slave a few days to die, then the man shall not be punished, because the slave was his property. Exodus 22:3 orders that a man caught in the act of stealing must be sold into slavery if he cannot make full restitution for his debt. Exodus 35:2 says that anyone who works on the Sabbath day must be put to death. Leviticus 11:7 declares that the eating of pork is forbidden. Leviticus 11:10 states that eating shellfish is an abomination. Leviticus 15:18 states that after a man and woman have sexual intercourse, they are considered defiled until the next evening. Leviticus 15:20 says that if a woman is having her period, anything she sits on or lies on is considered dirty. Leviticus 19:27 says men may not cut their hair or trim their beard. Leviticus 19:19 admonishes us not to wear clothing that is a mixture of two different materials. Leviticus 24:10-16 says that anyone who blasphemes the Lord's name shall be stoned to death. I could go on and on citing examples of archaic Biblical law, but my point is this: how many devout Catholics really believe they must follow ALL of God's laws? Science has proven that homosexuality has a biological base--it is not merely a "choice." Get over your homophobia and fear--this is about equal rights and treatment under the law--period!!!

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:55 AM By RR
JLS: You are absolutely correct!

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:02 AM By DintheValley
It sounds like Catholics call for gay people to be celibate. Easy for you to say. Accepting celibacy as a consequence of something one never chose (being gay), and based on the morals of other people, is, as you know, not something most gay people will eagerly embrace. For me personally, however, it was one of the options I considered for myself when I was going through my painful process of realizing I am gay. So were a lot of other things, including suicide. What I eventually arrived at was: 1. I didn't choose this, so I refuse to feel shame for it. 2. I can not accept the notion that God could make me this way and also gave me this enormous capacity to love but expect me to never use it. That would be cruel, and a waste of ability to love someone in that special way. If that was truly what God wanted for me (celibacy and no romantic love), then I could not in my heart accept that God. I'm here for a reason, and that reason is not to live a frustrated, celibate, lonely life. That wouldn't make any sense. It's a little simplistic, but that's the essence of how it went for me. So that's why I believe any interpretation of the Bible that's anti-gay is simply wrong. I know many of you disagree, and I respect that. To me, though, I think of what the church view used to be toward people like Galileo, Copernicus, and Da Vinci as proof that even the strongest prevailing religion-based arguments can sometimes later prove to be wrong. Sometimes we profess to know God's will, but later find He has surprised us again and we didn't know quite as much as we thought. I want to get a marriage license, something from city hall and outside any church, but wonder if I will be able to. Even disagreeing, you can probably at least imagine how frustrating that is for gay people. No need to reply, I just wanted to share my view.

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:56 AM By Grisha
.Two Comments: To Jean: You ask "how many devout Catholics really believe they must follow ALL of God's laws?" Most Catholics (Defining "devout" gets tricky.) believe they SHOULD follow all of God's laws. We believe all humans are sinners. We try, we fail and we try again. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Catholics in this forum who are obsessed with Other Peoples Sins - especially sexual ones. Dinthe Valley: The Church teaches that everyone, except for married heterosexual couples is called to celibacy. For various reasons many, perhaps most, single people, gay people etc. don't answer that call. If you aren't a Catholic, I think it might be helpful to some here to learn what your faith community tells you about your situation

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:59 PM By Jean
The advancement of science, the expansion of knowledge, and the growth of reason and logic over many hundreds of years has shown that much of what was once considered to be “Biblical Truth” is indeed contrary to reality. I’ll give you one of many examples that exist. Galileo is a name familiar to us all…he is famous because he advocated Copernican doctrine, which is that the earth revolves on its axis, and also revolves around the sun. In response to this theory, the Catholic Church and their Inquisition threatened Galileo with torture, forced him to recant his support for that doctrine, and sentenced him to imprisonment. In addition, based upon the teachings of the Bible, for nearly two hundred years the Catholic Church's Index of Forbidden Books condemned all writings, which affirmed the idea of the double motion of the earth. Moreover, for generations, the major branches of the Protestant church—Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican -- denounced the Copernican doctrine as being contrary to Scripture. As I asked in my last post, and as I will again ask, how many devout Catholics (and any other type of Christian, for that matter) REALLY believe that they must follow ALL the “laws” and “teachings” of the Bible? If that is the case, then Chris is right—we would never advance and grow as a race. We would be hopelessly stuck forever in lives and beliefs that are identical to those of primitive and illiterate societies. Is there anyone here who doubts the scientific reality of the double motion of the earth? Science has already proven that homosexuality is biologically-based. Those who refuse to accept that truth are no better than the narrow-minded Church leaders who attempted to crush the teachings of Copernicus and Galileo. One day we will all look back on this and shake our heads at how silly it all was. About as silly as saying that someone who works on the Sabbath day must be stoned to death, I’d say….

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:26 PM By DintheValley
Grisha, the faith community I was raised in frowns deeply upon homosexuality. Knowing that, I felt weighted down by the fear that I was a disappointment to God, and would be to my family. Like there was something wrong with me, even though I'd always tried so hard to be good. Hence the thoughts of suicide. Oh it was awful. Incidentally that's why it always baffles me when people refer to homosexuality as a "lifestyle" that is "chosen." I guess you could only know this if you'd experienced it, but believe me no one in their right mind would ever choose such stress. So for a long time my relationship to my faith community has been tenuous and complicated. However, I do consider myself a person of very strong faith in God. And as I said, I firmly believe He put me here for a purpose. I'm doing my best to discover and fulfill that purpose. For me, I don't believe being celibate will aid in that journey. And to not use my gifts of love, nurture, and support in a spousal way would be to squander gifts I've been fortunate enough to receive from God.

Posted Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:09 PM By Anne T.
I, quite frankly, think the tendency for homosexual behavior is gotten into like a other sinful behavior. The person is tempted, he/she gives into it, they like what they are doing or get some sort of pleasure out of it even though it is not good for them or society, and they develop a bad habit, which quite often leads to other sins which are just as bad. Then they justify the sin so they can contiue the behavior.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 8:50 AM By DintheValley
Anne T., how would you know? That's a very convenient attitude for a person who isn't gay to take. Come back to me when you've walked in my shoes and maybe your theory will warrant some consideration. Until then, I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think a distorted view of Jesus Christ's teachings has you predisposed to dismiss things you don't understand, like homosexuality. I've met a lot of Anne T's in my life. I try not to let them bother me because it gets in the way of my staying focused on the purpose God gave my life. Homosexuality is not some great temptation everyone feels, that the wicked enjoy and the righteous deny. It's a human sexual orientation that is present in a minority of people. Kind of like being left-handed is. But if it makes you feel better to write me off as an unrepentent sinner, I probably can't stop you.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:44 AM By Anne T.
Dinthe Valley, I am old enough to have seen people change their ways who were homosexual orientated when they were younger and vice versa. I also know that many Lesbians become so because their father cheated on their mother, and they want know part of a relationship with a man. I know of at least one man whose mother cheated on the father, and he is a practicing homosexual, and I think that was one of the causes. It still does not solve the situation, never-the-less, because the lifestyle is not natural nor healthy. It does make it somewhat understandable, though.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:58 AM By Diane
Anne T, people cheating on their spouses is a common thing. It's not unique or special to gays and lesbians. You don't "know" that any lesbian has ever become a lesbian "because" her father cheated, and you don't "know" any gay man who is gay "because" his mother cheated. You can speculate, but anecdotal speculation is not equivalent to knowledge and true understanding. Your talk of "the homosexual lifestyle" is ignorant. Homosexual persons do not have any particular lifestyle any more than heterosexual persons have a particular lifestyle. Their "lifestyles", whether they're heterosexual or homosexual, are diverse. There is no lifestyle that describes them all. You should be old enough to realize that.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 12:11 PM By DintheValley
Anne, you're making connections that are not logical. If a boat sinks on the night of a full moon, did the full moon make the boat sink? People who are gay come from every background and circumstance imaginable; all types of families, religions, ethnicities, socioeconomic statuses, you name it. No pattern. I think you're making connections that are in step with what you already believed anyway. Which brings me back to: how can you consider your outside observations, which can hardly be objective based on your faith and your sexual orientation, to be more accurate than people who go through it first hand? Homosexuality isn't a hobby or an indulgence or a whim or an experiment. People are either homosexual or they are not. Most are not, but some are. I know that doesn't fit into what you want to believe, but I respectfully submit I am a little more qualified to know.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 12:18 PM By Dai Yoshida
DintheValley: Every argument you can make to claim that homosexuality is a sexual orientation (I've always been this way, it's not a choice I made, I've tried to change but I can't change, I need to be true to myself, I'm genetically predisposed, etc.) are also the same arguments made by pedophiles. Is pedophilia a sexual orientation? With homosexuality, the victim is your soul.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 12:29 PM By Jean
Anne T., the logic that you use to form your opinion is flawed on a number of levels. Let me explain. You are using a form of logic known as inductive reasoning. According to Wikipedia, "Induction is a form of reasoning that makes generalizations based on individual instances. It is used to ascribe properties or relations to types based on an observation instance (i.e., on a number of observations or experiences); or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns." The following example of inductive logic will illustrate how it is a flawed system of thought. "I have seen many dogs that are brown. Therefore, all dogs are brown." While the premise that you have seen many dogs that are brown is accepted to be true, the inductive conclusion that therefore, all dogs are brown is, as anyone knows, absolutely false. Your premise that you know many lesbians and a gay man who had opposite-sex parents that cheated on their spouse I'm sure is true. However, your inductive conclusion that all people who are gay had a flawed relationship with an opposite sex parent is absolutely false. There are as many different family dynamics for homosexual people worldwide, as there are for heterosexual people. Untold numbers of homosexuals had perfectly happy childhoods, parents who are still married, and absolutely no dysfunction at all in their past. As “DintheValley” states, sexual orientation is a genetic variation, like being left-handed. Several of the people posting here demanded "proof" that sexual orientation is genetically determined. "StayCurrent" provided very compelling evidence of this (see "July 31, 2008 10:00 PM by Stay Current") and yet there is still staunch refusal to look at the scientific findings and acknowledge the validity of that evidence. As I said earlier, this stubborn refusal to expand one's knowledge and thought basis is akin to the Church leaders who attempted to crush the teachings of Copernicus and Galileo. It prevents our advancement and growth as a race, and mires us in bigotry and fear. Anne T., regarding the people whom you know that have “changed” their sexual orientation; you might want to conside

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 12:43 PM By Jean
Anne T., regarding the people whom you know that have “changed” their sexual orientation; you might want to consider that they were either A) bisexual to begin with, or B) so riddled with guilt due to society’s lack of acceptance that they suppressed their homosexual feelings in order to gain social, familial, or religious acceptance. Those are conclusions that are rooted more in fact, and less in the naïve belief that sexual orientation can be turned on and off like a light switch.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 1:31 PM By Jean
Dai Yoshida, in response to your question, pedophilia is NOT a sexual orientation. DSM IV, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, defines pedophilia as a paraphilia. Other paraphilias include fetishism, voyeurism, sadism, and masochism. Statistics indicate that most people who engage in pedophilia are men who are heterosexually oriented. In other words, while there are a percentage of men who are sexually attracted to young boys, there are a much larger percentage of men who are sexually attracted to young girls. So…sexual orientation has no bearing on whether or not someone is a pedophile. What does have bearing is that if you are a pedophile, you suffer from a psychological disorder, whether you are heterosexual or homosexual. The American Psychiatric Association does not consider homosexuality to be a sexual or psychological disorder. Those are the irrefutable facts, which is what educated and thoughtful people deal with when making decisions.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 2:24 PM By Anne T.
Ladies and gentlemen, I never said that all homosexuals come from such families, some don't, but all that I have known do. I also know of a middle-aged woman who is married to a man and has had a lebian lover. Both of the middle-aged woman's parents cheated on each other left and right. When they finally divorced they went from relationship to relationship (all heterosexual). What I have found out is when parents give a poor example, the children usually end up very mixed up. One of their other daughters has been into drugs, etc. most of her life and also from man to man. Only one daughter is married and living a decent life. There have been good parents who have had children who got into a lot of trouble, but quite often they return like the prodigal son. And I am not saying that everyone has to be married to anyone to lead a good life, so don't misquote me on that one. I know of plenty of such cases as the ones I have mentioned. And, by the way, none of us, including myself, are perfect parents. We all make mistakes, but some worse than others.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 2:30 PM By Grisha
Hi all: Not a lot of things scare me. One thing that does is the possibility that science will figure out how to tell if a child in the womb is homosexual. It's already legal and in some places would be socially acceptable to abort that basis. If a couple decided not to abort the gay baby, would it then be legal to take small children to a "clinic" where they would be reprogrammed. If the kid had really "deep seated homosexual tendencies" would various extreme "treatments" such as electroshock be OK? When would "treatment" start? Would it have to wait till the kid showed "symptoms" What age would the child have to be to be put into "treatment?" Surely it would have to be before it's too late , before they are six or seven or eight.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:27 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, one doctor already wants to perform sex change on operations on children in Massachussetts. Children who have no physical deformities, such as having some of the genitals of each sex. What do YOU think of that senario? I find it horrendous!

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:52 PM By Frances
What would they have been had their sexuality been "reprogrammed"? Socrates, Aristotle, Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Milton, Melville, Byron, Blake, Emerson, Whitman, Warhol, Shakespeare, Tchaikovsky, Gershwin, J Edgar Hoover, Lincoln, Buchanan, the Catholic Church, et al.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:56 PM By DintheValley
Dai Y - There is a sound, logical explanation why things like pedophilia are criminal offenses and homosexuality is not.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:26 PM By Jean
Anne T., I do agree with you on this point--I think it would be a grave mistake to offer sex-reassignment surgery to children. I, however, also have a problem with adults who seek this surgery. I do not feel that God makes "mistakes" when he creates each one of us. I believe that He creates us as He intends us to be, and it is our duty to live good, fruitful lives with the bodies that we are born with. You may wonder how I can be so accepting of the idea of homosexuality, and yet say that transgendered people should just accept who they are without altering their physical body. Well, it once again goes back to my belief that God does not make mistakes when he creates us. Then again, I am not transgendered, so I really have no idea what it is like to live their life and feel their feelings. I think that the bigger question at play here is, why do these people feel that they need to become the opposite sex? Is it because society doesn't readily accept "feminine" boys, and "masculine" girls? If that is the case, then what is needed is more education, more tolerance, and more acceptance of diversity.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:50 PM By Grisha
Anne T: What I think about it is that there is good reason he has ZERO support from his professional peers for the idea. It also might be possible to someday change the sex of a child in the womb. China (a nuclear power) may someday have hellacious social disruption because of a great imbalance of males and females due to the one child policy and aborting of girl babies. Imagine millions of Chinese men streaming north into Russia to seek women just as Mexicans now come here to seek work? The stuff of sci-fi becoming frighteningly real.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:58 PM By Anne T.
There has already been a case of a woman who had a sex-change operation as an adult who is now regretting having done so. Can you imagine the mental anguish and lawsuits later if parents go to the extreme of having this operation for their children. It just isn't right to multilate one's body, and that is what a sex-change operation is as far as I am concerned. Jean, no matter what disagreements we have, I am glad that you are not considering such a course.

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:08 PM By Anne T.
Diane, when I use the term homosexual lifestyle, I mean those who practice the sex acts. I and everone on this website are well aware that not all practicing homosexuals have the EXACT same lifestyle. Some are fairly conservative in their actions, just as some heterosexuals are, others live very decadently, just as some heterosexuals do. Does that clear that up for you?

Posted Thursday, August 07, 2008 6:17 PM By Frances
Anne T, the doctor you speak of in Massachusetts says he's prescribed hormone blockers to a handful of children to delay their puberty until they're 18 so they can reach maturity before deciding if they'd like to transition to the opposite sex (such transition may or may not include a sex change operation). It is the hormone blocking procedure to delay puberty which some are mistakenly calling a "sex change operation" for children. It is not a surgical operation and it does not change the children to the opposite sex. The doctor says it is fully reversible should the then adult person choose not to undergo sex reassignment or transition. It is reportedly the changes of puberty that often cause the most distress for transgendered children, and delaying puberty lessens the distress for them. The doctors who prescribe this treatment say that almost all with Gender Identity Disorder continue on to surgery, or at least continue on to transitions.

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