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Published: May 19, 2008
“Devoted champion of the culture of death”
Icon of pro-abortion movement dies in Santa Barbara
Harvey Karman, a hero of the pro-abortion movement for his role in making it easier to kill unborn children, has died. Karman, who was 84, passed away on May 6 at Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital following a stroke.
 Karman has been idolized by the pro-abortion movement for the invention of a device – a flexible, plastic cannula -- now in wide use for vacuum-aspiration abortions, and for his willingness to defy the law and perform abortions at a time when they were illegal. He also ran an underground railroad to take women from California to Mexico for illegal clandestine abortions there. In addition, Karman is credited with assisting in the invention of do-it-yourself abortion kits and of “lunch-hour abortions,” so called because of the speed at which they could be performed using his cannula.
In a flattering, opinionated obituary published May 18, Los Angeles Times staff writer Elaine Woo described Karman as an “activist, inventor, educator and rogue” who was “drawn to the plight of women facing unwanted pregnancy in the 1950s, when abortion was illegal. While training in psychology at UCLA, he started an underground abortion referral service and eventually performed abortions himself, for which he was convicted and sent to state prison for 2 1/2 years.”
Woo’s obituary did not mention that the illegal hotel-room abortion for which Karman was convicted occasioned another obituary more than 50 years ago – that of otherwise healthy Joyce Johnson, who died in April 1955 from sepsis following Karman’s abortion. She was 26. Karman was not then nor did he ever become a physician – but he continued to perform abortions.
Woo’s obituary said Karman’s invention of what is now known as the Karman Cannula for vacuum-aspiration abortions “made a key contribution to women's reproductive health, particularly by making abortions simpler, cheaper and less painful.” She described a 1972 trip by Karman to Bangladesh in order to perform abortions and train Bangladeshi doctors to perform abortions as “a humanitarian mission to terminate the pregnancies of 1,500 Bangladesh women and girls who had been raped by Pakistani soldiers.”
Dr. Malcolm Potts, currently a professor at the University of California at Berkeley, went with Karman to Bangladesh, reported Woo, who quoted Potts as saying, "Harvey Karman did more for safe abortion around the world than practically any other person in the world.”
Karman is also lionized by the pro-abortion movement for participating in what was known as the Jane Collective, a Chicago-based group that provided an estimated 12,000 illegal abortions to women between 1969 and 1973. In 1972, Karman arranged with the Jane Collective to perform abortions at a clandestine clinic in Philadelphia using a now discredited Karman-invented device called the “super coil.” An investigation launched by the federal Centers for Disease Control after one of Karman’s patients had to be rushed to a Pennsylvania hospital revealed that nine of 13 patients followed up by the CDC suffered life-endangering complications from use of the “super coil.”
But Woo’s obituary in the Times makes a point of quoting abortion advocates as forgiving Karman’s recklessness with women’s lives because of his “other contributions” and because he was “a real change agent.”
“Elaine Woo goes out of her way to paint a pervert pretty,” said one veteran Southern California pro-life activist. “Karman was a monster and devoted champion of the culture of death.”
Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 8:38 AM By Margaret
Karman obviously wooed Woo to the point of promoting and legitimizing the behaviour of someone not only responsible for illegal abortions but even invented a vacuum device that literally sucked out the lives of tens of thousands of innocent unborn baby vicitims of the culture of death abortion machine. A champion and change agent for the culture of death is the worst epitaph for any human being to have at the end of his or her life.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 8:41 AM By hosemonkey
I wonder if the same kind of glowing obituary was penned for the German engineer who developed and installed the high-speed ovens used at Aushwitz-Birkenau and other extermination camps? After all, this was a great step forward in the business of death. And Karman was responsible for far more deaths than the Nazis ever were.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 9:16 AM By John
According to Dr. Bernard Nathanson, an abortionist who knew Karman, the "siper coil" was just a high class coat hanger. Karman was outspoken as an advocate of abortion for population control. the eleven women he lined up to give illegal abortions on Mother's Day in Philadelphia in 1972 were all Black women.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 9:33 AM By Papamac
I wonder what it is like for these people on Judgement day, Karman, Soon Teddy Kennedy,Pelosi, Supreme Court Justices who failed to protect the most innoncent, the United States Congress, those of us who VOTE into office butchers that put Hitler to shame with their support of a Womans so called right to put a Baby to death. I wonder what it is like to have to answer Jesus for this authority these evil people have taken upon themselves to put a Baby to death, an then throw the remains in a garbage dumpster. I somehow feel that those Babies are there beside Jesus pleading with him for Mercy for these butchers, even Karman...MAY GOD BLESS
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 9:35 AM By Elizabeth
May God have mercy on his soul.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:11 AM By Fr. M.P.
Everyone please pray for his soul since it is possible for him to be saved. This is a chance to practice loving your enemy.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:40 AM By Anita Salsedo
re: Fr. M.P.-----I won't pray for his evil soul but I will pray that you get your morals in order. As a 'preacher' you should understand the victims are the ones who need the prayers. This man sold his soul and it's past salvation time for him. The new order church thinks you can really be saved after you die???? Interesting new concept. So I guess if we pray for Judas he can still get to heaven? A very important part of Catholic Doctrine is the fact that if we are going to hell we can only change that before we die. Not after. Learn your faith.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 1:11 PM By Art of Redding
Good point Papamac. But please remember that no one can know for sure what is in the heart of a sinner at the moment of death. What I am saying is that even someone like Karman could have repented before death. PROBABLY NOT, but only God can know. There are others still alive like; Kennedy, Pelosi, Schwartzenegger, Kerry, etc., who have the opportunity to get holy or die trying. I can’t imagine trying to explain to God why I supported the killing of his pre-born children (Democrats are you listening).
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 2:56 PM By Kristen J
I join others in praying for the soul of this man and for the souls of many who live as he did! The Divine Mercy Chaplet seems appropos.
Ms. Salsedo, Though my understanding of Church teaching
is that a soul can only be saved before death, I also know that She teaches of God's Divine Mercy and that She teaches that only God can condemn even the most obstinate sinner. Who knows what extraordinary means He makes available (as opposed to the "ordinary means" of the sacraments of the Church)?! After all, He gave ALL to save us, so our souls mean something to Him, however soiled. So, let's leave condemnation to Him and beg instead for His Mercy.
Perhaps if we are merciful, we too will be shown mercy for our sins at our death, as He promised.
Furthermore, I am alarmed by your use of the term "new order church." Are you in communion with the Church in Rome? If not, you'll pardon me for trusting the one to whom Our Lord entrusted the Keys (St. Peter's successor, Benedict XVI) over any other's bitter opinions. The best we all can do is conform ourselves to God's Holy Catholic Church.
Kristen J
weareacatholicfamily.blogspot.com
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 3:52 PM By Christina
We should pray for "the least of these" -- and from a spiritual perspective, it's hard to think of somebody with less going for them than a man who devoted his entire life to destruction of life, ostensibly for the very women he treated like lab rats.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 3:57 PM By Christina
We should pray for "the least of these" -- and from a spiritual perspective, it's hard to think of somebody with less going for them than a man who devoted his entire life to destruction of life, ostensibly for the very women he treated like lab rats.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 7:49 PM By Paul Lopez
Anita, take it easy. The advice given by Fr.M.P. is absolutely appropriate and holy. It's an act of merciful love and charity to pray for one's soul, even that of a very tragically sad person who did many evil things while on earth. Victims don't need prayers, to the contrary, it is precisely for individuals such as Mr. Karman, that Our Lord came to this world............not to save the just, but the lost. You seem to take an authoritarian position that is not yours to hold. Only the Church can pronounce people to be in heaven through the opening of a cause for sainthood. The Church is not in the business of proclaiming to the world who is in hell, never has been. For all we know, Mr. Karman may be in the lowest level of purgatory, inches from hell, perhaps saved by a last touch of grace, gained by a willing "victim soul," (should there still be one or two on this earth) selected by Our Lord precisely for extreme cases such as this. The bottom line is that we simply DO NOT KNOW where any soul winds up. Besides, prayer for any reason, is not wasted. If, Mr. Karman is sadly in hell, then Our Lord would pass along the graces obtained through the many who offered them for him, to, more than likely, the next individual who is in a similarly dire situation as he. Leave the judging of one's soul up to Our Lord, and always remember that prayer's for the dead are a good thing, irregardless of how wretched someone was on this earth. I suggest a reading of "The Way of Divine Love," regarding approved revelations given to a Spanish nun in the early 20th century. The love Our Lord has for sinners is endless and abundant, and thru Sr. Josefa Menedez's offering to be a "victim soul," many souls were saved from the clutches of the devil. Through his instructions, she learned to love souls as he, with his heart. We are also called to emulate, as best we can, this command. Particularly since WE KNOW THE TRUTH OF OUR FAITH, whereas, PERHAPS Mr. Karman did not.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:36 PM By The other Mike
During his lifetime, I prayed that Mr. Karmen would see the errors of his ways and stop killing babies. I also prayed for his unborn victims. Now that Mr. Karmen has passed, I continue to pray for his victims, and I pray that Mr. Karmen's contemporaries will see the errors of their ways. But since Mr. Karmen can no longer kill any more unborn babies, I can no longer pray for him to stop killing. I can only pray to thank God that Mr. Karmen's killing of unborn babies has stopped.
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Posted Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:26 AM By Fr. M.P.
Anita, how can you say such things? Don't you know that God wills that all men be saved? (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9) Don't you recall the Our Father "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us?" If you do not forgive, then neither will you be forgiven. Don't you recall the last minute conversion by St. Dismas, the good thief on the cross? Don't you recall Jesus saying that if you only love those who love you, what good is that since pagans do the same? (Matthew 5:43-47) Don't you know that the judgments that you pronounce are given to you? "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." (Matthew 7:2) So you don't want anyone to pray for you after death? You don't want anyone to care that you are saved? Wow! Have you ever thought of that? Lastly, let no one limit God in time. He can apply any prayers for a soul said after death as Grace for a last second conversion since God knows ahead of time what prayers are said. Who are you to limit God? How do you know what his soul did right before death? The highest form of love is forgiveness because the other party doesn't deserve such love in justice, but rather mercy triumphs for the ultimate good of the other soul - to be with God forever. (Karman is not Judas) EVERYONE NEEDS PRAYERS, ESPECIALLY EVIL-DOERS!!!
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Posted Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:54 AM By William
The only thing Fr M.P. is that less than half of the people attain heaven ultimately, and why would someone like this be among the chosen few? Its possible, but do you really think its likely? Tell the truth, you know the chances are very small.
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Posted Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:57 AM By Fr. M.P.
One more thing. The Church teaches that there is a hell, and that some souls go there. The Church does not teach that any particular person is in hell. So why would any of you presume to judge more than what the Church teaches? And which of you is to decide who to pray for or not based on your opinion of what is likely or not? I see the choir needs some preaching too.
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Posted Tuesday, May 20, 2008 12:19 PM By Art of Redding
William, only God can know who is ultimately in heaven. Is it possible that Karmen or Hitler or Stalin are in heaven? You are correct that it in unlikely.....but still remotely possible. Please re-read Fr. M.P.'s post with an open heart and mind. God bless.
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Posted Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:25 PM By Anita Salsedo
Fr M.P. All I can say is you do not understand Catholicism. You think like a protestant. More fruits of the new order. No I don't know what his last minute thoughts were but that is really grasping at straws. I think this man was a murderer and cost many young women their souls. I care more about the souls of the young girls and girls in the future who condemn themselves with the help of people like you that insinuate that this could be a good man worthy of prayers. It is very distorted thinking. When did it become unchristian to notice evil. This man was evil and did much evil in his life. Jesus was not blind to evil and he had no problem identifying it. Why do you? This ridiculous attitude of everyone going to heaven is making it very easy for people to disregard the 10 commandments. We need to be much harder on people like him not canonize them. We also need to pray for the souls in purgatory. Do you still believe in that?? Praying for someone that is in hell will do him no good. Did he recant his position on abortion? I don't know where he is or the chance that this murderer might be in heaven, but if how we live our life is unimportant that is a corruption of what Jesus came to show us. He died so that our sins COULD be forgiven. We have to take part in our own salvation. And how we live our life is an example for others. When we live as murderers of babies it doesn't just cost us our souls but we cause others to sin.
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 5:50 AM By Fr. M.P.
Our Lady of Fatima said that many souls go to hell because no one prays for them. Ask yourself if you are one of those. Anita, I care about ALL souls because God cares about ALL souls. Our Lady does too. That's real Catholicism. Refusing to pray for a soul is nothing more than a judgmental form of hate. Don't you recall those who hate are murderers? You sound like a traditionalist who rejects Vatican 2. Who was the last Pope in your mind? Please show all here what Catholic teaching (dogmatic or doctrinal reference) says that a person can judge if a particular soul is in hell. Please provide evidence that you know for sure that Karman's soul did not repent at 1 microsecond before his death. We all await your evidence. Karman committed evil, yes, and so did the good thief, remember? What happened to the good thief, the one who "stole Heaven?" I never condoned Karman's evil, rather I said pray for his soul, which is a merciful act and a duty of real Catholics.
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 7:03 AM By Canisius
I hope at the judgement seat the last see this guys sees is the souls of the millions of babies of he helped destroy before Our Lord utters "depart from me" ....
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 9:23 AM By John L. Sillasen
One earthly parallel of the benefit of praying for the souls of the departed can be seen in the well known conversion of one of the founders of NARAL to Catholicism ... this man has since gone on the lecture circuit to help the world see the truth that abortion is the murder of human babies. A penitant, even at the final moment of death, can then pray for his or her former colleagues in the sin of mass murder, ie abortion.
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:26 PM By Paul Lopez
If you claim that Fr. M.P. thinks like a protestant, then I guess Our Lord is one too. The love displayed by Our Lord, in his revelations to Blessed Josefa Menedez, for lost souls, smacks of post VAT II lessons, although his messages to her were given in the 1920's. And maybe there was at least one straw to grasp at. St. Paul also was a murderer prior to his conversion. St. Augustine was also an evil man, albeit in another manner, that of innumerable sexual sins, but yet he converted. I don't believe that Fr. said that Karman was not evil, he just did not say he was. The fact is that only God can properly judge someone, based on their entire life, their unbringing, acceptance or rejection of grace, wether introduced to Catholic truth or not. The list goes on and on, we simply do not know what is truly in the heart of any individual. That is why it is up to us, the Church militant, to pray for those who do not yet know him and beg his mercy and forgiveness on behalf of them. And if you are living your life as God wishes that you do, all the merry and thanksgiving to you, in thanksgiving to Our Lord. Also, you did not respond to Fr. M.P.'s example of the "good thief," or, St. Dismas, that, through an act of love and grace, had the wisdom to ask Our Lord for genuine forgiveness. Death bed conversions are not the norm, but do happen out of the Mercy of Our Lord.
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:40 PM By Paul Lopez
Anita, one other thing. I'd like to picture the following scenario, and tell us how you'd react. Let's say that you happen to be in the hospital where Mr. Karman was lying in, awaiting his demise, and you stumbled across a lady outside his room who was praying a rosary. You sat across her, as you waited for a friend who was visiting a sick relative. After praying, you struck up a conversation with the woman, who divulged who Mr. Karman was and that she had been a long time friend of his, and had always prayed for his conversion. She had contacted a priest to offer some consoling words to him, in the hope that he would seek a genuine conversion. She tells you that he is a decent person, but worked in the abortion industry and pushed to further it's advancement. After speaking for several minutes with you, and once she realized that you were Catholic, asks you to join in praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet for him, as a last ditch effort to save his soul from the eternal fires of hell. I ask you now, would you walk away like the levite and unfaithful priest, or would you do as the good samaritan, and pray with your heart and mind for the soul of that man?
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:26 PM By Anita Salsedo
Boy.....you people are tough on me, a practicing Catholic, and very judgmental too. I am not getting the squishy love you give the "murderer". You can't presume to tell me who to pray for. I am a life long true Catholic with a very well formed conscience. Yes, I do sin. I don't claim to be perfect, I just try very hard to live a moral life and I know my faith. I haven't committed mass murder or assisted others in that. I realize that if I had done that forgiveness is possible. Punishment is still required. I believe adamantly in redemption. As to the thief that Jesus forgave....I have never said that Jesus doesn't know their heart. Here's one for both of you 'what about the other thief?? Where is the indication that Karman was sorry? He is acclaimed for what he did. I pray for conversions all the time but my point is that if he is in Hell, as is likely, prayers will do no good. Why is this so complicated??? Show a little charity to a Catholic once in a while, not just these obvious murderous sinners. You go ahead and pray for him. I have no problem with that. My problem is your insistence that if others don't join you they aren't good Christians. How can you presume to be so all knowing? Your modernism is showing. Don't you feel a little silly comparing this abortionist to Saints Paul and Augustine. Mr Lopez, I don't pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet, I pray the Rosary. And no I wouldn't join her. I am sure to you that is as evil as abortion. I would ask God to judge him fairly.
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 7:39 PM By William
Fr MP we dont know for certain if anyone's in hell? What about Judas? He is there.The bible says narrow is the gate...if its not a sure thing for average people to attain heaven, why would this evil person have made it at the last minute? God is love. God is mercy. God is also justice. Yes its possible he could have made it, but not likely. God will not be mocked. I was told by a very good priest that the odds of someone converting at the last second after a sinful life, are 2 in 100,000. Not good odds. Myself, I am more inclined to pray for the souls in purgatory, not enough do. They cant help themselves. Sinners can. they choose not to.
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 7:51 PM By William
I suppose that Kennedy is not that bad either. Even though he voted aganist the partial birth abortion ban. And if he dies without a confession (and who knows if it would be sincere), then you think that even though he is part of the culture of death, he would have a chance to be saved? Remember, God holds those to whom much has been given to a higher degree of accountability. Fr MP ??? What about his *marriage*?
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:41 AM By Paul Lopez
Anita, don't get me and others wrong, we love you and you are on our side of course, it is just that I am a little saddened by your apparent lack of showing at least a minimal amount of compassion for this obviously troubled and wayward (in the eyes of Christ) soul. As for the "other thief," well the scriptures don't tell us, but I can only imagine that he, being that he evidently did not ask for forgiveness from Our Lord, is most likely in hell. With regards to Mr. Karman, all of my posts, and I imagine those others who showed sorrowful mercy for him, were written with the knowledge that we don't know what happened in his last agonizing moments. Now, if he was sorry, well then that adds a tad more credibility for our stand. Another thing in his defense, if you want to call it that, is that all the bad advise that he was disposing to these women could have been rejected by them as well. No one put a knife to their throats and forced them to adopt his views. They are a sad by product of the overall greater picture.........namely that of adhering to Satan's lies about feminism, hedonism and whatever other evil ism's that run contrary to Our Lord's will for us here on earth. Also Anita, I never said that if you don't pray for him one is not a "good" Christian and definitely never implied that I am all knowing either. As for Saints Paul and Augustine, I can only tell you that they loved and hoped that Mr. Karman would have converted in his last moments, as they most likely do for all sinners. Remember, Our Lord said that he came, not to save the righteous, but the lost. I would venture to guess that Karman was of the latter category.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 1:58 AM By Paul Lopez
I'd like to share a passage from "The Way of Divine Love." Blessed Josefa Menendez ask's Our Lord why he, if he so longs the conversion of sinners, leaves their hearts untouched, so that many prayers and sacrifices are lost? Our Lord responds........."When a soul prays for a sinner with an intense desire for his conversion, his prayer generally obtains the sinner's conversion, though sometimes only at the last moment, and the offence given to my heart is repaired. But in any case, PRAYER IS NEVER LOST (emphasis mine), for on the one hand, it consoles Me for the pain sin has occasioned, and on the other, its efficacy and power are applied, IF NOT TO THAT SINNER (my emphasis again), then to others better disposed to profit by it."[page 232] Bottom line, it does not hurt to pray for those whose, "sins be as scarlet," as he told Saint Faustina in the 1930's.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 2:34 AM By Paul Lopez
Anita, please, tell me you are not a follower of the Dimond Brothers, who I am aware of as the only group of so-called Catholics that reject the revelations (among other things) by Our Lord to Saint Faustina, and thus persuade their followers not to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Are you aware of the many graces that He attached to the recitation of this devotion? Our Lord told St. Faustina, "At the hour of death, I defend anyone who prays this chaplet, as I do my own glory. When this chaplet is said by the bedside of a dying person, God's anger is placated, and his unfathomable mercy envelops the soul" (Diary 811). So then, if you disregard this holy advice, would you then not even join the lady, from the above example, in praying the Rosary if she invited you to? What have you got to lose? If praying would not benefit Karman, assuming he lost his soul forever, then you can be assured that your prayers will benefit somebody else of His choosing, perhaps, as the Jesus prayer says, "especially those most in need of thy Mercy." William, you are right, many do forget to pray for those in purgatory, as you correctly state that they cannot help themselves, but they are still sinners, gradually being purified by grace via the Church Militants' offering of prayers, sacrifices and sufferings. The Kennedy saga is tragically sad, with more reason to pray for him and all Catholic politicians blind to the truth regarding the evil of abortion, which trumps all other social issues.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:43 AM By Fr. M.P.
Anita, you are no practicing Catholic if you think you can judge with certainty a person's soul and dare to say one is in hell. God alone is judge, right? You ducked my questions of showing us dogmatic or doctrinal proof of your position - of course because there isn't any. Beware of the leaven of pharisees - hypocrisy. William, the Church doesn't teach that Judas is in hell either. If you think it does, please provide your doctrinal proof. When can you provide that? Judas is an exception known from private revelation in the form of exorcisms. But no one else is mentioned in the Bible as being in hell (the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is just that - a parable). Since you two don't want any prayers applied to Karman's soul because you are certain that he is in hell, what would you think of God redirecting prayers said for your soul to be given to Karman instead? If you would object, then why? God says that you will be judged as you judge. God says treat others as you would treat yourself. So it would be just that you receive no prayers since you don't want to give any. Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Since you don't want mercy for Karman's soul, neither should you obtain mercy. Have you considered that? Where sin abounds, Grace abounds all the more.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 11:41 AM By William
Fr MP I didnt say I didnt want mercy for Karman's soul, I said I dont think he made it.Those he killed deserve it more. He may deserve some, but what about those he deprived of Heaven, by abortion? Wheres their mercy? If less than half make it, why would he be in that half, yes its possible, but...
Re Judas, 'cmon, Jesus said it would be better if that man were not born! Do you need a scorecard?
And I pray a lot, I am praying the 54 day rosary novena for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate heart of Mary, in union with many others, which started on May 13, this is in addittion to my regular prayers, I just think its more just to devote most of my prayers for the Holy Souls in purgatory, I strongly suggest you get the book "30 days for the Holy Souls" Tan books. Spirit Daily sells it as well as other places. I feel called to this. And I do pray the mercy chaplet several times a week.
But the victims deserve more mercy than the perps.
If you are by any chance in SO Cal, I know a very good priest you need to talk to. I say this in charity for you.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 1:33 PM By Paul Lopez
I have quoted Our Lord himself several times above from approved revelations regarding the mercy of God and not a peep of a response regarding them. William, I think it absolutely wonderful that you are praying the miraculous 54 day rosary novena. Yes, Tan does offer many excellent books, including "The Way of Divine Love." Unfortunately, I think that your take on who deserve's more mercy is skewed and with all due respect, incorrect. Contrarily, it is precisely the perpetrators who are in need of Divine Mercy, as these souls are the ones who are in most need of his mercy. Sure, if the victim's died without the grace of a sacramental confession, and they had mortal sins that required forgiveness, then yes, they also need much Mercy. I don't know who you were referring to when you mention "those he deprived of heaven," but if it is the aborted babies you were talking about, then we could probably rest assured that they are in the bosom of the Lord. As for Judas, well, according to Our Lord in the above referenced book, he did lose his soul.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 2:54 PM By William
Mr Lopez, I was indeed referring to aborted infants, who recieved no baptism. I believe Limbo is the place they would go. Its possible that one aborted infant would have become a doctor who discovered a cure for cancer, or whatever. Or been a great leader when one was needed. God's plan aborted. I feel more called to the souls than to sinners, although I have prayed in the past for certain people. Read that book, it explains why what I stated is so. I do pray a lot. And I'm not worried about not praying for Karman, Kennedy, Pelosi, etc, the Holy souls more than intercede for you when you cross. And I have made many devotions to give me help and graces, for a long time. I consider people like Karman, Kennedy, and Pelosi to be enemies of my Faith AND my country. It does no good to sugar-coat it. If Pius X were still Pope, I believe he would excommunicate the lot of them. Kerry too. Everybody prays for sinners, whatever that means, I mean how many times have you heard someone say, such and such is in my prayers, and you feel thats the end of their *prayers* Like if someone says "how ya doin'", try to tell them, and watch them squirm. "In my prayers" and "hows it goin'" are another form of greeting for some. I belong to the Confraternity of the most Holy Rosary, and say many indulgenced prayers for the Holy souls. I wish more people would foster this practice.These are truly God's friends, and we are the only ones to help them. How about this? Each morning offer up part of you daily sufferings for them, you are gonna suffer anyway, why not reap benefits from them?
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:44 PM By Francis D
In the orthodox tradition (recounted at the Mercy COngress in Rome last month) they believe that at some point God, who is RICH in mercy will give enough grace to the souls in hell that even they will repent and God will invite them to the marriage feast of heaven. Of course, the only ones upset will be those who want no mercy for others. I like the orthodox point of view.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:34 PM By John L. Sillasen
Yeah, right. Hell exists only in the imagination of those who hate God. Interesting in some of these current threads how the lack of restraint attempts to gain the high ground ... like dogs demonstrating who's in charge ... like the "gentiles" who Jesus told his apostles like to lord it over one another. Instead of meditating on the revealed truth, they meditate on lovable ideas conjured up from the dust, or even from beneath the dust.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:41 PM By Paul Lopez
William, I have not read the book you mentioned, although I intend to. I do understand that the Souls in purgatory's intercessory power is great with God, but that fact alone will not prevent me from praying for the conversion of presently living sinners, myself included, particularly famous public Catholics, like those mentioned above, among others. I however believe it more meritorious for one's soul to GIVE and offer prayers for their conversion than to RECEIVE graces from others, in return for having prayed for them. In the latter case, being that they are in danger of losing their souls, they are not in position to repay you for your concern for them, hence you pray on their behalf without receiving nothing in return....or so we'd think. Although perhaps the sinner will not acknowledge your prayers for them, Our Heavenly Father will. That to me is a greater reward. Kind of like the lesson Our Lord gave us about ".....why love only those who love you, even sinners do the same........" While they may act and say things that define them as, "enemies of my faith and country," we, the ones who purport to be the faithful ones, recognizing their blatantly obvious errors, are responsible for praying for them, so they can see the damage they are causing and in time to help themselves. Would you not agree then, that if we do recognize the truth in such matters, we have been given more faith, grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit, or whatever you want to call it, then much more will be asked of us. That is how I see it. Another thing to remember is that at least we can say that the souls in purgatory are already saved, and will be future saints, as for the sinners here on earth, their plight is clearly more serious, as they could still fall into hell. As for your last five sentences above, I agree wholeheartedly with everything. I'd just add that sinners are God's friends also.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 11:50 PM By William
Paul Lopez: Do get and read the book. As I stated, so many pray for the conversion of sinners, and still many are lost, although no prayers are wasted, that I feel obligated to pray for the Holy Souls. Not many do. This is my calling, although I am almost daily engaged in discussions about the faith, and am forever defending it, am trying to get others to see how perilious these times are. Example: today I was asked to explain where the Trinity is justified in the bible, and also was told God is a God of love, and would never condemn anyone to hell. They just cease to exist (!). I have no peace.These are "show me in the bible" Christians, and they have a good heart, but they are getting me down. So, with all that, and I wont back off from defending the one true faith, and the constant prayers for the souls, I just dont have time, desire, or energy to pray for those sinners who could help themselves, but for whatever reason, choose not to. The Holy Souls, to me anyway, are more in need. The only thing stopping these sinners from coming back, is themselves. I feel more for the souls. Are you in So Kal?
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 11:12 AM By Annika
We should all pray for the KKK-Karmon, Kervorkian, and Kennedy along with all their fellow lynchmen.
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 12:44 PM By Paul Lopez
Irregardless of our mild debates above, I'd have you on my apologetics team in a flash. Your devotion to the Holy Souls is to be lauded and emulated. The faster they reach Heaven, still greater will be our reward from the graces received due to their closeness to God and the enviable privilege of the gift of the Beatific Vision. Regarding living sinners, I'd just like to add to not give up hope and let them "get you down" as you say. Remember that you have the gift of the truth of our faith, and it overcomes any uncertainty and challenge presented by those our unfortunate brethren in Christ Our Lord. There have been many reputable conversions over the last 20 or so years.......with God, anything is possible. Look at St. Monica, being the mother of St. Augustine, though with extra incentive to pray for his conversion, never gave up hope, and it is said she prayed for more than 30 years for him to come around. As for them not helping themselves and for whatever reason choosing not to, that is the whole mystery of how God uses his just judgeship to enable one another to offer prayers, sacrifices and suffering on their behalf. Their ignorance and shallowness to be open to the truth is very sad and led simply by pride. It takes a humble heart to ask for a prayer for guidance by the Holy Spirit, who can convert hearts. I am in the central valley. My email is pillolo10@gmail.com.
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 5:27 PM By Fr. M.P.
William, I would mention several points. First, do not limit God by your asking. When you are at Mass, the Graces available are infinite and asking for the salvation of horrific sinners like Karman does not "dilute" or "take away" the prayers for the Holy Souls or other intentions. Jesus is always ready to give maximally, but we do need to ask. Second, even though you opine that Karman is in hell, do not even voice such an opinion. Since we are each accountable to God for everything we do, if your comment stops someone from praying for his soul's salvation, you will be accountable to God for that because you will be the cause of blocking Grace. Be very careful in such matters. Lastly, the Church does not formally teach that even Judas is in hell. Why? Because our focus should be on brotherly assistance through prayers of mercy, not on judgment. Remember Jesus comment to St. Faustina that a right we humans have is the right to His Mercy? That includes everyone. Where sin abounds, Grace abounds all the more. Sorry, but I am not in SO Cal.
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