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Published: April 25, 2008
“Irreconcilable with the Catholic Faith”
Call to Action holding 3-day dissidentfest in San Jose
 Call to Action, the dissident Catholic group described by Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re as “causing damage to the Church of Christ,” began a three-day regional conference this morning in San Jose.
Call to Action dissents from Church teaching on, among other things, homosexuality, women’s ordination, priestly celibacy, and contraception.
The “10th Annual West Coast Regional Call to Action Conference,” with the theme “Rebuild My Church – Responding Creatively to Injustice,” is being held at the Wyndham Hotel. It is scheduled to conclude on Sunday, April 27. According to a program announcement, the conference will feature various dissidents from Church teaching, including several so-called “women priests.”
Victoria Rue, Juanita Cordero, Kathleen Kunster and Jane Via – who claim to be “women priests” -- are scheduled to conduct a workshop entitled “Women Priests at the Grassroots.”
Fr. Brian Joyce, pastor of Christ the King parish in Pleasant Hill (Oakland diocese), is another of several scheduled speakers. His talk will cover “Concrete Examples for Rebuilding a Parish -- How the vision of Vatican II can be explored and implemented in today's parish using sound theory and concrete examples.” Fr. Joyce became notorious in 2002 when someone videotaped a “Clown Mass” he was celebrating at his parish. The video has since been posted on YouTube and can be viewed at www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA.
Rob Grant, described in the program announcement as “a driving force in the Bay Area liturgical scene,” will lead a workshop on “Why the Church has a Problem with Progressives.” The program announcement describes the workshop this way: “Why on earth would an otherwise intelligent institution be so wary of concepts as seemingly benign as women priests? Inclusive language? Collaborative leadership? Knowing the paradigms, assumptions and fears from which a person or a group operates is the first step to conversation and true engagement.”
Listed as “keynotes” are Fr. John Dear, who, says the program announcement, is “a Jesuit priest, peace activist, lecturer, and writer of approximately twenty books on nonviolence. In the course of his civil disobedience against war, he has been arrested more than 75 times;” retired Bishop Remi De Roo, who, as a result of his participation in Vatican II “came to see how creative and life-giving these internal ecclesial tensions could become and grew to welcome the healthy diversity that is innate to authentic catholicity;” and Leo Keegan, who “has been working in area of liturgical renewal for over 25 years as consultant for parish, diocesan and National Conferences specializing in initiation rites, liturgical arts and ministry formation.”
In March 1996, Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz excommunicated all Catholics in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, who were members of Call to Action (along with members or supporters of Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood, the Hemlock Society, the Freemasons, and the Society of St. Pius X). Call to Action’s Nebraska chapter appealed their excommunication to the Vatican.
In December 2006, Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, prefect of the Congregation for Bishops, wrote to Bishop Bruskewitz that the Vatican was upholding his decision. “The activities of ‘Call to Action’ in the course of these years are in contrast with the Catholic Faith due to views and positions held which are unacceptable from a doctrinal and disciplinary standpoint,” wrote Cardinal Re. “Thus to be a member of this Association or to support it, is irreconcilable with a coherent living of the Catholic Faith.”
Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 4:48 AM By JPeterman
"Do you know the way to San Jose?.." Apparently the fruits and nuts all do. Holy Orders are an indelible mark so these men can indeed still be called priests and thus we should pray for them. Pray that God wakes them up before they lead too many more astray. Also pray for Bishop Bruskewitz, what a GREAT Bishop!
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 6:57 AM By semperficatholic
AND JUDAS HAS MANY OFFSPRING!
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 7:56 AM By Paul Lopez
Any possibility that Bishop McGrath will take similar action as Bishop Bruskewitz did in his diocese? Sadly and probably not. What about Bishop Vigneron? Should we not expect him to at the very least not have allowed Fr. Joyce to even attend a function out of his jurisdiction. I was under the impression that a priest needed permission from his Bishop in order to attend to matters outside of the realm of his parish. This is an outright scandal to the Catholic church and a slap to Magisterial submission and obedience to the laws of the Church. Hopefully through our prayers, Cardinal Re declares this event to be heretical in format and purpose and orders, that is if he cannot do it himself, the excommunication of all in attendance at this gathering that makes a mockery of unity and the will of the Sacred Heart of Our Lord. If only they knew how they wound the heart of Our Lord with displays such as these. Enough of the tough love language, as on the other hand, let us nevertheless, offer our prayers, sacrifices and sufferings for these our lost and separated brethren in Christ. That they may be open to the truth and have their blinders lifted in order to be able to see the errors of their ways. O Holy Spirit, third person of the Blessed Trinity, descent upon these your lost sheep and grant them your gifts of knowledge and wisdom to enable the conversion of their stubborn hearts to the beauty of your love and mercy to take root. We ask this always in Jesus' name. Amen.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 8:22 AM By David
SNAP and Voice of the Faithless have affiliated with this group. Heck I think SNAP has Call to Action as one of its donors. It is so twisted with these advocate organizations. They are misleading not only innocent victims but souls. The bishops may have made mistakes in mishandling the abuse but by God these advocacy organizations are worse. Satan was sure having a field day in Hell.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 9:38 AM By Jan Wnek
Firstly, let me make clear that I am in no way a supporter of "Call to Action". However,I would ask Cardinal Re: what is the "coherent living" of the Catholic faith he speaks of? Is he and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church (with, unfortunately few exceptions) living "the Way" Christ taught, or are they living the material "good life" granted to them through their unholy alliance with "the kingdoms of this world" , which Jesus expressly rejected? When the Vatican first removes "the splinter from its own eye", when Benedict XVI retires his "celibate" (I seem to recall a scandal in this regard several years back) mercenary force with their decapitating halberds, when the bishops give over their residences to the homeless and start sleeping on cots or air mattressses in their offices, like Bishop Gumbleton did for years at St. Leo's in Detroit, then I will take seriously what a "prince of the church" has to say about anything....until then...well, you know the rest...
In the words of St. Francis of Assisi, a saint to be imitated:
"Pace e bene" to you all,
Jan
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 9:52 AM By June V
What drives these people (the devil) to want to change the Catholic Faith? If they don't like it they can go to the Episcopalian Church, similar to the Catholic Church, but they have homosexual bishops, women priests, etc.. Stop disrupting our Church and get out.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 11:15 AM By John F. Maguire
Bishop Fabian W. Bruskewitz's 1996 mistake--and it was an enormity--was to have barned together in the same barn the Call-to-Actionites (these persons are members of an apostate sect) and those Catholics who regularly receive the Holy Eucharist from priests of the Society of St.Pius X. Bishop Bruskewitz, it seems to me, failed to take fully into account the letter (dated June 28, 1993) by the Apostolic Pro-Nuncio to the United States, Archbishop Cacciavillan, who on behalf of Cardinal Ratzinger, cancelled the Bishop of Honolulu Joseph Ferrario's judgment that the procuration of "services"--indeed, the "very association"--of six Hawaiian
Catholics with Lefebvre-ordained Bishop Williamson "incurred
ipso facto the grave censure of excommunication. No, wrote Archbishop Cacciavillan, "[f]rom the examination of the case, based on the Law of the Church, it did not result that the facts referred to in [Bishop Ferrario's] decree are formal schismatic acts in the strict sense, as they do not constitute the offense of schism, and therefore [Bishop Ferrario's] Decree of May 1, 1991 lacks foundation and hence validity." I suspect that a comparable finding would obtain in the matter of Bishop Bruskewitz's decree against Nebraskan Catholics (Lincoln Diocese) in association with the Society of St. Pius X. At stake is ecclesial justice--and nothing less.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 11:18 AM By Grisha
June V: As a mainstream Catholic when I'm not at my moral best, sometimes think "Stop disrupting OUR Church and get out" about the editors or this site, the St. Joseph Man;s s Society etc. Whan I feel that way I'm wrong, and may I humbly suggust, so are you.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 11:35 AM By Dan
For Jan -- I don't know anything about the personal living arrangements of any bishops -- not even our own Cardinal Mahoney here in Los Angeles. What do you know about our bishops that prompts your charge of hypocrisy? Although like you, I would like to see the princes of the church live in simplicity, and prefer to hobnob with common folk rather than big-shot politicians and others of high influence, nevertheless I would want them beyond all else to be holy. I remember meeting Cardinal Manning in 1980. A sense of the holy emanated from that man. I don't know what kind of house or rectory he lived in, and to be honest, I wouldn't have cared. I could see he was a true man of God. In the later 80s I received communion from him frequently before cancer took his life. He was in residence at a local parish. All this is to say, judging the prices of the church by their residence, and not their heart for God, seems a bit disproportionate. Asking a bishop to adopt Franciscan poverty is one thing; blaming him for not accepting this particular charism is quite another. I think you go too far.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 11:45 AM By Dave
Like prostitutes, Call to Action flaunts their lifestyle at you. Such a high price to pay.
It is so shameful of what they do.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 11:51 AM By Fr. J
Anyone there under age 60?
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 12:19 PM By Dave N.
I agree with Jan for the most part. If coherent living of the Catholic faith is the standard, then we must begin with the church leadership--i.e., the bishops. Talk about pot and kettle!!! Until the cover-up of the abuse scandal is brought to light and dealt with, we can conclude that "The whole head is sick..." along with Isaiah. Incidentally, didn't Bp. Bruskewitz refuse to sign the Dallas Charter to Protect Children? Even if nothing's going on/has gone on in his diocese (hard to believe) this still spreads a pall of sick secrecy over the church, even if only in appearance.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 1:34 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
If you want to see the who's who of the Archdiocese of Lost Angels and probably of Orange and most of the California Diocese and Archdiocese, go to this Conference. Most of them wil probably be there!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 3:19 PM By Michel
It was nonsense like this that made me see the fruits (and yes, I do mean fruits) of the Novus Ordo. I now attend the SSPX exclusively, where this kind of blasphemy would not be condoned.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 6:30 PM By Miguel
As Pope Benedict said he would rather have good priests than many priests. We would rather have good catholics than many catholics. This is a joke. These people are not, never will be, and probably never were catholic. They are so obsessed with changing the church they can't even ration their own disobedience!
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 6:36 PM By Grisha
Michel ~ You are of course free to do what you want. However, my understanding is that you are no more properly fulfilling your Sunday obligation by attending an SSPX mass than you would at one celebrated by one of the Womanpriests mentioned above.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 7:55 PM By gravey
Bishop Vigneron has taken a vow of silence when it comes to Fr. Joyce and other heterodox members of the Oakland Diocese.
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 8:27 PM By M.R.
In reading this, my thoughts were: you will know them by their fruits. Every good tree bears good fruit.
What good fruit does Call to Action have?
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Posted Friday, April 25, 2008 11:30 PM By Richard
Jan, A coherent living of the Catholic faith entails believing and behaving in a way which coheres with what God has revealed through Scripture and tradition. For example, killing someone does not cohere to God's commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Believing that there are many gods does not cohere with God's revelation that He is One. Believing that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist coheres with Scripture's and the Church's teachings on this point. Believing their is nothing wrong with abortion does not cohere with the teaching of the Church that any circumstances surrounding a pregnancy should be relative to the fact that a sacred life created by God is present in the womb of the mother and that killing him/her, as with killing any innocent person, would be murder. Believing that marriage is dissoluble does not cohere to the teaching of Christ and the Church that it is not. Practicing contraception does not cohere to marriage vows that one should be open to life when consummating marriage in the act of conjugal love. Believing and teaching others that women should be priests does not cohere to the Churches proclamation that the Church has no power to afford women ordination as that only men can be ordained was already decided by Christ himself. Engaging in homosexual acts does not cohere to the teaching of Scripture that God ordained that by the nature of human creation that man and woman are to be one flesh. Such are examples of what it means for one's life to be in coherence with the Catholic faith - whether what one believes and how one behaves coheres ( is cohesive) to the faith, or not.
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:56 AM By JPeterman
Good point Grisha. Michel, I understand that you seek a reverent Mass, we're all looking for that unfortunately but SSPX is not in communion and thus you won't be receiving Holy Communion.
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 8:01 AM By Beney
To Jan: You got your facts all mixed up re: the Swiss Guards - they are not celibate. In fact the scandal your refer to involved a supposed 'love triangle' between a captain of the Guards, a guard, and the captain's WIFE.
Also with regard to poverty for bishops. The vow of poverty is part of the charism of the religious - not priests per se. I suggest you read St. Francis de Sales comment on how bishops can't be expected to live like monks and be effective pastors. Same ideas found in the writings of Pope St. Gregory the Great. Seems to me you've been taking too many cues from the Da Vinci Code and other critics of the Church. PAX
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:35 AM By James
Grisha: In regards to SSPX-Sunday obligation: officially one fulfills his obligation in attending an SSPX chapel only if he is unable to physically reach a bishop-approved mass. Their sacraments are valid (those not requiring episcopal consent) unlike the womenpriests movement.
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:54 AM By FHKJ
There is hope for the Call to Action Members. The members of the Society of St. Pius X certainly have been restored in good standing with the Church. It seems that the same may happen someday for the Call to Action folks as well.
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:24 AM By Tony de New York
Gravey no only that but he went along with the new cathedral.
G-d help us!
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:24 AM By Grisha
Jan: In an imperfect world, most institutions need to look after security. Of all the military / security / police outfits on the planet, the Swiss Guards are probably the mellowest. Bear in mind John Paul II was the target of two assasination attempts ~~~~~~~~~~ James: I seem to recall that Fr. MP wrote here that SSPX masses are valid but not licit.
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 3:11 PM By James
Grisha: SSPX masses are valid but not normally licit. The irony is that the 1983 code stipulation that allows Catholics to take part in the sacraments of schismatic churches (Polish National Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Assyrian Church of the East, Patriotic Catholic Church, etc) in extreme need is what is now being used to permit the faithful to assist at SSPX masses, yet this code revision was one of Archbishop Lefebvre's major objections. The ironies of history!-------------------------------------------------What is wrong with the Bishop of Omaha? Why would he lump the SSPX in with masons and abortion advocates? Can anyone tell me his story?
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 3:39 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Re: SSPX Masses "those who attend such Masses to fulfill their obligations can do so as long as they do not deny the validity of the Norvus Ordo Missae" Again gentlemen, get your facts straight!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 4:48 PM By Grisha
James - Like a lot of people, he's frightened by the changes in the Church and the world and his solution is to cling to a rigid standard and reject all diversity. Very few if any Catholics belong to the masons, yet he focuses on them. Down the road, I suspect he'll find other groups he suspects as enemies of the faith and excommunicate them.
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 6:28 PM By Fr. M.P.
Call to action is the mother of all heresy spreading organizations. A womanpriest "event" cannot ever be called a Mass since only a validly ordained priest (a male) can confect the Eucharist. The SSPX are validly ordained but not in communion with the Church, so their Masses are illicit but valid. Never waste your time going to a womanpriest event of any kind. And if you want to read about the goal of masons to destroy the Catholic church and focus on a religion for whatever goes, read Humanum Genus about it. Quite an eye-opener. [http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm]
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 7:43 PM By Grisha
Kenneth: Where is that quote from?
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Posted Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:40 PM By John L. Sillasen
Bishop Bruskewitz excommunicated the SSPX members in his own diocese, not in all dioceses. Why not contact his diocese or google up his publication on the issue? I do not recall either of the Popes taking issue with him over it. +++ FHKJ, the SSPX has not ... not ... been restored to good standing with the Church. One diocese of SSPX in South America was reunited with the Church ... one diocese and its bishop. The problem is authority; the SSPX does not have the authority to operate independently of the papacy.
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Posted Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:45 PM By James
Kenneth: The quote you offered was never official, it was a very early compromise possibility to remove the suspension (this was before the Econe consecrations). Up until 1988 the quote you posted was unofficially the standard, but for twenty years Sunday obligations have only been fulfilled at SSPX parishes in cases of need.
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Posted Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:51 PM By James
John L.: The diocese you refer to in South America is Campos, Brazil, which was never an SSPX mission. The diocese headed by the late Bishop Mayer was independent of the SSPX, although the coconsecrating bishop with Abp. Lefebvre was Castro de Mayer. De Mayer never permitted the V2 reforms to occur in his diocese, and after his death the diocese had SSPX bishops come to confect sacraments, though their union was spiritual and not juridical. They have since reconciled, much to the chagrin of the SSPX. As for authority and the SSPX, they were declared recently by Ecclesia Dei to be canonically irregular and not schismatic.
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Posted Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:54 PM By James
Fr. MP: What is the status of a Catholic who is also a Mason?------------ I'm surprised Bruskewitz would go after the SSPX since isn't the FSSP seminary in his diocese, all former SSPXers who are still sympathetic to the SSPX.
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Posted Sunday, April 27, 2008 8:05 PM By Innocent III
The FSSP are not "all former SSPXers." Dozens and dozens of priests have been ordained specifically for the FSSP since that first handful of SSPX priests reconciled with Rome and formed the FSSP in 1988. As for the FSSP being sympathetic to the SSPX, that's neither here nor there. It may be true in some cases, but if these priests really felt attached to the SSPX, they would go join it.
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Posted Sunday, April 27, 2008 11:15 PM By John L. Sillasen
James, I just read Pope Leo XIII's Humanum Genus, where he goes after the Freemasons. If you read it, you will see what the issue is ... regarding anything that may move to the same beat as the Masons. And once again, why don't you go to the source of Bishop B's excommunication order and ask either him or his chancery for the specifics? It's only a phone call, email, or google away. Be mindful of Jesus' advice against straining at gnats while swallowing camels.
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Posted Monday, April 28, 2008 12:04 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Grisha,
It is from the Holy See and it came long after the Econe consecrations.
I don't have time now to look it up, perhaps later.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com
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Posted Monday, April 28, 2008 12:11 PM By Jan Wnek
To all; the Pope, as a representative of Christ on earth...or do you not agree?....is not to have a mercenary army protecting him. Jesus, by telling Peter to put away his sword, gave all, who would call themselves His followers, the same Commandment. Now, Jesus' world wasn't "perfect" either...the question is: do you believe Jesus is the Son of God and, if so, are you willing to live as He expected ALL those who claim to follow Him to live? Are you willing to do that without an AR-15 in your hand or a rocket on your apache helicopter? Good question, eh?
Pace e bene, Jan PS: the way of Jesus is not a "Burger King"("have it your way") way....you either follow His teachings as he clearly elucidated in the Sermon on the Mount or you don't.......Jesus didn't preach idealistic fantasy...He expected us who follow Him to do as He did....for me, that's perfectly clear....the reason why we don't witness, after 2000 years, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on EARTH as it is in Heaven" is because Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and Evangelical) has watered down the Way of Jesus with nothing more than a series of "buts...".....including justified violence, which Our Saviour never condoned....
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Posted Monday, April 28, 2008 2:14 PM By James
Kenneth: your plain wrong.
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Posted Monday, April 28, 2008 6:34 PM By Fr. M.P.
James asks "What is the status of a Catholic who is also a Mason?" One cannot be a mason and a Catholic whatsoever because masonry is its own form of religion contrary to the Catholic faith. If you read documents by masons such as Manly Hall or Albert Pike, you will see the satanic influence. Read Humanum Genus by Pope Leo XIII [http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm]. Persistent refusal to leave the masons can result in excommunication. See also the details explained at [http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=103]
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Posted Monday, April 28, 2008 10:54 PM By John L. Sillasen
Jan, there you go again misconstruing Scripture. Yes, Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, but not to throw it away. Do you see the difference?
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Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:06 AM By jan wnek
John Sillasen: and there you go again, picking at trivialities when you know you don't have a leg to stand on....swords in those days were used for protection against wolves and other predatory animals etc.,and other domestic purposes for which people in some cases use machetes today - it was not just a weapon to hack people to death, just as the revolver and rifle is used as a weapon of protection against natural predators and for hunting for food, and not necessarily as a tool for killing other "temples of the Holy Spirit". Alles klar? Your comment is a clear case of what I call the "but..." syndrome (attempting to justify violence in the name of the Lamb of God, who was totally nonviolent) from which all Christian religions seem, in their majorities, to suffer....Pace e bene, Jan
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Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:58 PM By Grisha
Jan ~ While the Swiss Guard have been mercenaries in past ceturies, for the past 500 years they have been soley the vatican's pope's security force. I don't believe they even have firearms. In a modern sense they arn't in any way an army. Actually the more serious protective functions are carried out by a seperate Vatican Police Department.
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Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:00 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
jan wnek,
I hate to blow your bubble, but I have personally visited the Siss Guard's armory, and amongst the ancient swords etc. etc. are some very lethal weapons. The then second in Command told me that they were there in case needed and all the Swiss Guards receive training comparable to Green Berets and Seals! Thank God!
James, prove it! When I have time, I will do so!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:24 PM By jan wnek
Grisha et.al.:he who is called the "representative of Christ on earth" doesn't need a 'bodyguard'...unless he is a politician. Christ, the Son of God, was crucified and His earthly representative needs a bodyguard? Pleeeeease!!!!
Pace e bene,
Jan
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Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:59 PM By John L. Sillasen
Jesus had bodyguards ... such as Pontius Pilate, who guarded Him from the pharisees until such time as Jesus no longer needed to be guarded. Later, the Romans once again took up the role of bodyguard of Jesus, this time of His vicar, the popes. Grisha, the Swiss Guard carry firearms, including M-16s, as of a decade or so ago.
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Posted Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:11 PM By John L. Sillasen
Jan, Peter pulled out his sword not to protect against animals, but against men, and against not just a few average men, but against a squad of soldiers: That is what bodyguards do. Jesus did not tell him swords were only for animals. Many people over the years have carried pistols for protection against other people. Pistols are not normally made for hunting food or protecting against animal attack. If you are worried about a bear or lion or moose, for example, you don't carry a pistol for that type of protection, as they are not sufficient in many cases I cannot see a sword being particularly effective against animal attack. A spear or bow or big knife, but not a sword. You could use a sword to slice a bear, but it would kill you anyway. A spear would keep you away from its claws, before it could take your head off; a sword is too short to help you. A knife could help; if you played dead until the bear was right on you and too close to swipe your head off with its claws, you might have a chance with a good knife. In that situation, you could not bring a sword to bear without giving the bear enough time to swat you down.
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:05 AM By jan wnek
There you go, John S.- desperately trying to salvage your untenable position. You understood me perfectly, but insist on beating about the bush with trivia....a perfect example of the "but..." syndrome....it's been happening among Christians for the last 1700 years, so I'm not surprised. The point was and is that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword. Your argument was that Jesus didn't tell him to get rid of the sword. My response was that the sword was not exclusively used to hack other fellow human beings to death...and here you come, wasting an entire post on what I am very familiar with, because I have been a hunter for years....however, I never have, and never will hunt, maim or kill other children of God..... I have a close friend who was a Marine Corps captain in the Vietnam War. He was in the thick of it in the area known as "Leatherneck Square" by the DMZ. As a lieutenant he was awarded the Silver Star, was wounded twice (two Purple Hearts) and has suffered with the effects of Agent Orange (cancer)several times. Over the years he came to the realization that what he had done - killing the 'enemy' - was morally wrong. Twenty-five years later, his son, who is in the military, was called up for duty in Iraq. As he was preparing to fly to the staging area in Germany, my friend's advice to him was:"Son, if you're ever put in the position where you are called upon to kill an Iraqi, just die...".That is the essence of Christ's message: whether we like it or not....Pace e bene,
Jan
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:23 AM By John L. Sillasen
jan, to you the Bible may be trivia, but to me it reveals much about God. On your friend's advice to die rather than kill in a battle: What about the obligation to help your buddies survive? I can count relatives and neighbors who fought tough battles, but who would never let down their pals. My grandfather commanded an infantry company against the German army in WWOne, he had nightmares for decades of the carnage due to artillery, and he was not enthused about the Viet Nam War, but he was loyal to his friends and nation. My uncle landed in the third wave to hit Iwo Jima, took a bullet in the lung, but never had misgivings about killing enemies in battle. A Jewish neighbor copiloted a heavy bomber and dropped bombs on Germany, without regret. My sister's late FIL dropped bombs on Ploesti, and had no regrets. I don't think any of them liked war, but they fought for the love of God, family, and neighbor. I sat out VN in a reserve unit, and have misgivings about my lack of involvement, and see that war as having helped stop the Cold War. Not all wars are just; the Iraq war is a mess, but even though it may have been handled by political idiots, our troops there are fighting for God, family and neighbor. This requires faith in God's mercy. Do you believe God is merciful when we blow it? We elect officials to lead us; they do their best. Do we let them down without due course of law? Were all German troops who killed Russians and French and Americans evil? I had a German exchange teacher in high school, who had fought in Hitler's infantry ... he was a typical normal good man ... didn't want to fight that war, but had little choice ... because not all are called to martyr themselves for God, otherwise there would be no Christians today.
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 1:32 PM By jan wnek
John Sillasen: You can place your body in the "field of fire", you can jump on a grenade, but no Christian is allowed to kill another human being....God is merciful when we blow it to the point that we are ignorant of what His Truth is....once we know what His Truth is and we act contrary to that, well.....you know the rest....I definitely disagree with you about martyrdom....Christianity grew, despite the persecutions of the Romans and others, which is why Constantine, being the shrewd politician he was (as far as anybody can tell, he worshipped the Sun to the end of his days) decided to bring the Christians into his (Satan's) "fold".....if the Church had remained faithful to Jesus, most people in the world would today be disciples of Jesus, because the clear hypocrisy which taints ALL the Christian churches would not be an issue....."by their actions ye shall know them...".The only "loyalty" the Christian is to adhere to is loyalty to the kingdom of God, as proclaimed by our founder, Jesus Christ.....look John...I understand you perfectly...most people's "faith" will only go so far when it comes to suffering any pain or death for the one who is proclaimed "the Son of God"...your last sentence hits the proverbial "nail on the head", albeit in the wrong direction...yes, John...we ARE called to martyr ourselves for Jesus when it is called for...and there would be plenty of Christians around today, even if it didn't include you and me.....
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:40 PM By James
Jan: as Jesus said in Lk. 22:36 "the man without a sword must sell his coat and buy one."
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:47 PM By jan wnek
James:what's with the "sound bite"?...leave that to the media pundits like Hannity, Limbaugh, Grant et.al., who know they have a listenership whose brains have difficulty focusing after just a few seconds....... read the ENTIRE passage both before and after your 3-second sound bite from Luke....seems the sword was necessary for the scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus told Peter to put away the sword....THAT is the lesson Jesus gives us.....and for nearly the first three centuries of existence, that's what Christians practised - nonviolence....until Constantine....
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:45 PM By jan wnek
To John Sillasen et.al.: Thought you would enjoy this story involving St. Thomas Aquinas....in case you aren't familiar with it: St. Thomas was standing on the steps of the Vatican with the Pope as a caravan was passing by, carrying riches for the Vatican treasury. The Pope remarked, jokingly, to St. Thomas:"No longer does Peter have to say 'silver and gold I have none' ", to which St. Thomas Aquinas responded: "..And no longer can Peter say 'arise and walk' "
Thank you, St. Thomas! Pace e bene, Jan
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Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:43 PM By John L. Sillasen
jan, you continuously caricature me and what I post. Why? Is it because you only wish to converse with a puppet? You express anger at me, and hatred for what I say, but you do not converse with me or with others on this site; rather, you revise what we post into something otherwise ... and you end up talking with yourself, while calling us names. Jesus did not go around telling people to go and have themselves killed. To preach this sin is tantemount to urging people to commit suicide. You claim to preach peace but actually preach suicide, not martyrdom.
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Posted Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:43 AM By James
Jan: Like most liberals I see your reading of the Bible is "selective," next you'll tell me homosexuality is not condemned in the story about Sodom, it was really about "lack of hospitality." What's with the name calling anyway? The passage is an exhortation on missions, the exegetical reading implies that one must prepare to defend himself when he goes out to preach the good news. Your posting are so angry, almost angry enough to be an old lefty nun.
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Posted Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:45 AM By James
Jan: I don't know where you acquired your knowledge of early Christian history, but the pre-Constantine followers of the Way are not the idealistic pacifist utopians you delude yourself into thinking they are. But believers today don't want to conform to God, they want God to conform to them.
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Posted Thursday, May 01, 2008 12:19 PM By jan wnek
John Sillasen and "James": I have never caricatured you...prove that I have - quoting chapter and verse shouldn't be all that difficult for you....I take it you didn't enjoy the St.Thomas Aquinas story...so be it...perhaps it "pricked" your consciences...it certainly did mine when I first read it long, long ago. As for accusations of "name calling", I find that completely delusional. Quote me chapter and verse of where I resort to "name calling"...I await your verdict. James: I would LOVE to hear where your proof is of early Christians practising "justified violence"....You're absolutely right, though, when you say believers don't want to conform to Jesus, they want Jesus to conform to them....."Amen" to that! That's clear when I read many of these posts on this website...including those of so-called anonymous "priests"....Darn! I can have an e-mail correspondence (which I do0 with just about every bishop in the USA (and abroad- in the languages I speak), with folks like George Weigel and John McCloskey, but I have to deal with initials here. Funny, isn't it? As for the "survival' bit, I seem to recall something about "he who would save his life will lose it...." ...can you help me with the rest of the passage, gentlemen? Thanks!
Pace e bene, Jan
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Posted Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:56 PM By David Newberry
Your report indicates that the former Bishop of Victoria is participating in a Call to Action meeting. As one who has read the Island Catholic News, an independent publication but with links to the diocese, I am not suprised, considering the prominent coverage given to the Womenbishops movement. Archbishop Burke of St. Louis has excommunicated those who participated in a simulated ordination in his diocese. Let us pray the the former bishop may disentangle himself from the snares of this movement, and that the restoration of tradition as sanctioned in Summorum Pontificum, will continue in the Church.
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