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“Contempt for the will of the people”

Same-sex marriage proponents won’t concede election, ask court to nullify Proposition 8


With 99.5% of the voted counted, Proposition 8 held a nearly half-million vote lead yesterday, but proponents of same-sex marriage are refusing to concede defeat and have filed a petition with the California Supreme Court to invalidate the constitutional amendment even if it wins.

With 25,318 of the state’s 25,423 precincts reporting yesterday afternoon, the Secretary of State said Proposition 8 held a 492,076-vote lead, with 52.5% of California voters approving the measure and 47.5% against. Called the “Protect Marriage Initiative,” Proposition 8 amends the state constitution to prohibit same-sex marriages, undoing a May decision by the California Supreme Court calling such a prohibition unconstitutional.

Yesterday, the American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights filed a petition with the California Supreme Court asking the justices, according to a news release, to nullify Proposition 8 “because the initiative process was improperly used in an attempt to undo the constitution's core commitment to equality for everyone by eliminating a fundamental right from just one group -- lesbian and gay Californians. Proposition 8 also improperly attempts to prevent the courts from exercising their essential constitutional role of protecting the equal protection rights of minorities.”

"If the voters approved an initiative that took the right to free speech away from women, but not from men, everyone would agree that such a measure conflicts with the basic ideals of equality enshrined in our constitution,” said Jenny Pizer, senior counsel with Lambda Legal. “Proposition 8 suffers from the same flaw -- it removes a protected constitutional right -- here, the right to marry -- not from all Californians, but just from one group of us. That's too big a change in the principles of our constitution to be made just by a bare majority of voters."

The same groups used nearly identical arguments before the election in a bid to get the Supreme Court to remove Proposition 8 from the ballot, but the court refused.

Proponents of Proposition 8 were quick to react. The move, said attorneys for the Alliance Defense Fund, “demonstrates the contempt such groups have for the will of the people.”

“This lawsuit is a brazen attempt to gut the democratic process,” said ADF senior counsel Glen Lavy. “The people of California have spoken yet again, but that doesn’t mean anything to radical groups that want to impose their will at all costs. Once again, they are attempting to use the courts to push their agenda since they can’t achieve it legitimately at the ballot box.”

Lavy said the argument offered by opponents to the initiative is without merit. “The lawsuit is completely frivolous,” he said. “No structural revision to the state constitution has taken place here. The people have simply restored the definition of marriage that the constitution has always assumed.”

In the meantime, the No on 8 side refuses to concede defeat. In a statement issued yesterday morning, No on 8 executive committee members Geoff Kors and Kate Kendell said the election was too close to call: “We expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.”

Backers of the proposition celebrated victory on Election Night, calling it “a great day for marriage.” Said ProtectMarriage.com chairman Ron Prentice, “The people of California stood up for traditional marriage and reclaimed this great institution. We are gratified that voters chose to protect traditional marriage and to enshrine its importance in the state constitution. We trust that this decision will be respected by all Californians.”


READER COMMENTS

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:07 AM By Dan
What a big surprise.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:32 AM By Grace
Who let 2% of the population get so much power?

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:58 AM By Charles O'Connell
The 'right' that opponents are so upset about losing is nothing positive, merely the right to drag the rest of our True Marriages down off the altar, out into the nudie-sodomite parade down on the Castro. 'Gay Marriage' proponents aren't trying to extend recognition of their 'marital bliss' into the civic arena, they're typically too busy battering one another. (Oct. 18, chef cooked & ate his gay lover; Oct. 29, Huffington Post contributor stabbed her lover 220 times; Nov. 5, parolee denies encasing his 80 year old lover in concrete). Real, married, 'straight' people become more physically passionate as their love increases; homosexual couples lose interest as their friendships deepen, nearly universally have 'open' arrangements, regard 'infidelity' not merely as normative but commendable, and 'straight' fidelity as ridiculous. Last December Ellen DeGeneres got rid of her 4-year 'committed partner' in favor of a 'hot', new young thing; they were married in August; after the commotion about 'gay marriage' dies down, they'll soon 'divorce' - never having been married in the eyes of God or the law in the first place. 'Polyamory', relationships with any number & combination of people, is but the gateway to legally endorsed, systematic exploitation of young people, already The Core Value of the homosexualist movement. The next barrier: 'intergenerational love'. They can't succeed if they don't have our children. 'Nice, ordinary, loving couples, just a little "different" '.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:09 AM By Charles O'Connell
There is no presumed right to marry one's siblings, parents or children, or other close relatives. The law has an interest in setting the terms of relationships which serve to build up families and society. Limiting marriage only to those who are truly capable of achieving physical union and begetting children, is not arbitrary maintenance of merely 'traditional' values, but defense of the basic foundation for all societies. No society that allowed a sexual free-for-all has ever survived. Radical individualism itself could never survive such a change.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:17 AM By Canisius
These people are nothing but Fascist, they lost and they cant stand it, so lets once again circumvent the will of the people, lets shop it to our favorite liberal judge.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:13 AM By Sertorius
Thanks be to the good God for enlightening the majority of California voters to destroy the abominable practice of same-sex "marriage" by Proposition 8, and restore to the social order the true definition of marriage. These voters are to be congratulated for their courage and devotedness to TRUTH.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:22 AM By CJJ
Let's see, no respect for the law - marriage between one man and one woman since forever and confirmed in 2000. No respect for religion. No respect for morality. No respect for property (homes and cars trashed). No respect for free speech or civil rights (campaign signs destroyed). Is anyone here really suprised that this group disrespects the "will of the people?"

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:30 AM By Sawyer
Prop 8 passed in CA by just about the same margin of victory that Obama had in the national election. So, of course, Obama has a "mandate" for change whereas Prop 8's "bare majority" invalidates it. Does anyone need clearer insight into the totalitarian mindset of the left?

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:50 AM By Margie
Am I the only one who is tired of people who subvert the democratic process through use of a corrupt judiciary? It does not inspire me to vote if my vote is going to be nullified whenever the opposition does not like the outcome. Talk about the audacity of 2% of this population to tell the other 98% how things will be in this society!

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:58 AM By Eileen
The contempt for the Will of God has been showcased here on California Catholic Daily by people who claim to Catholic.The devil never rests when it comes to seducing people to defend evil. Lucifer says, "I will not serve." Defenders of evil are blinded into the same behavior. God is still in charge. God is allowing this. We must pray and sacrifice even more because we are all sinners. Someone was praying very hard for Mark F. The very beautiful conversion words of Mark F, who cooperated with grace to leave a lifestyle that offended God should inspire us all to pray more for each other.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:06 AM By JOHN Zakharia
I am a Canadian Citizen. At that is exactly what the culture of death supporters did. Everyone who supporters the culture of death through out the world will try what happened in Canada. That is why we need to stop currupt judges from getting positions of leadership. It is that simple people

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:06 AM By A reader
The writ petition filed by the ACLU, Lambda, NCLR et al is titled Strauss v. Horton, Supreme Court Case No. S168047. The case can be followed by going to the Supreme Court website case information page and entering the case number. The actual pleading is available on the NCLR website.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:15 AM By Fr. M.P.
Evil-doers will stop at nothing to support their sins. The will of the people in a real democratic process was obtained. The will of evil-doers is to impose their will on you. Real Christians, keep fighting and praying.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:24 AM By St. Christopher
OK. Let them sue. But, in response, seek the full costs of suit, including attorneys fees, as well as sanctions against both the plaintiffs and their attorneys. This suit is meritless and operates, in essence, as a fraud on the court and an abuse of process. Their counsel should be immediately advised of their economic risk in pursuing such a suit, then sanctions should be sought, including a referral to the State Bar counsel. This is the only way to drive a stake through the heart of dracula.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 8:29 AM By Fr. J
Bush gets elected-they go to court. Obama gets elected-the people have spoken. Gay marriage loses-they go to court and riot in the streets. I don't think they care for democracy.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:04 AM By Carla Rita
The people of California have spoken. "No gay marriages". End of arguement, period!

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:09 AM By Thomas Edward Miles
It is a great day that the American People have finally removed the chains of discriminatory bondage and elected Barack Obama as the next President of the United States! It is a very sad day that the majority of the people of the great State of California have re-placed the chains of bondage on the backs of GAY an LESBIAN people! We, the People of the State of California have returned to a SEPARATE but EQUAL understanding of the Constitution of the State of California! It is the first time in the history of the United States of America that the established rights of a minority were removed to placate the majority; this action is not democracy, it is mob rule! In the Constitution of the State of California we have a Supreme Court to uphold the rights of the minority from the bigoted majority!! What is next for GAY an LESBIAN people, a seat in the back of the bus or in the vestibule of the church?!!

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:23 AM By Dr. Bob
The mere fact that the proponents of the opposition "refuse to concede defeat," does not nullify the fact or effectiveness of Proposition 8. A process for amending the State Constitution is in place; the process was followed. This is not a violation of "equal protection." Both state and federal law provide for equal protection; however, equal protection has its limits. Federal equal protection establishes the "bare minimum" that states must follow to ensure that "those who are similarly situated are treated equally," if they are part of a "suspect class." A suspect class, however, is very narrowly defined and, sexual preference (as opposed to race and gender) are not, per se, a suspect classification. Moreover, this begs the question of whether same-sex marriages are "similarly situated" on the same level for equal protection as are traditionally married couples in fulfilling their marriage. The answer is "no", because for example, "as to the union between each other," same-sex couples can not procreate naturally. Therefore, in regard to child-bearing, same sex couples are not similarly situated and on the same footing as traditionally married couples. Consequently, same sex couples "fall outside the scope" of the equal protection population. Thus, the "equal protection clause of the federal constitution does not apply. As for the State Constitution, states can expand the definition of those who are included within the scope of equal protection, but not go below federal constitution minimum protections. Proposition 8 sought to expand that; however, it was defeated. In conclusion, federal equal protection is preserved and the attempt to expand equal protection at the state level was defeated. End of story.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:35 AM By Papamac
Satan never sleeps, he knows what makes up the California Supreme court, his buddies have defied the will of the majority before, why not now when they have a marxist President to fall back on. The sodomites will not stop trying to foster their sick agenda's on the nation, mark my words. MGB

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:36 AM By Life Lady
The priviledge to marry is not a basic right, for anyone, not for heterosexuals and not even same-sex attraction people. If it were we would all have been issued a partner, whenever we wanted one, without having to go thru the process of applying for the license to marry, and we would not have to follow the age limitations, and the restrictions on one person per person, that are present in the process. We do not have the right to drive a car, unless we get a license and have followed the rules toward that priviledge. Well, the process is the same for marriage. People in California who want to marry must apply for a license, declare that they are free to marry, and that means it is not a right, as the opposition would have it viewed. There are restrictions on everyone, for the common good, and same-sex marriage, as decided by a majority of the citizens in California, is not for the common good. It undermines the fabric of this country, and does not allow that children will be protected and nurtured in the environment of a loving family with both a father and a mother. Those components to a family are not interchangeable, and no amount of yelling and screaming in the middle of the street will change that. In the meantime, we will pray for those who struggle with that disorder (same sex attraction) because they need the prayer, and we need to pray for them as well. We are all equal in that.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:02 AM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Life Lady: You call it a privilege but that is mistaken. The right to marry is a basic human right. By virtue of his Incarnation, which constituted his assumption of human nature, Christ possessed this, and just this, right to marry, but waived its exercise, which exercise fell outside his redemptive mission. Within this mission, however, Christ, as we know, is: the Bridegroom and the Church, his Bride.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:38 AM By wallace
Blah blah blah... When do I get to vote to nullify your marriage? Soon I hope. Afterall, it's totally my business that I get to vote to nullify the marriages of people I don't even know and never will. I can hardly wait to be able to vote to discriminate against another minority...oh so sweet the victory.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:40 AM By wallace
Blah blah blah... When do I get to vote to nullify your marriage? Soon I hope. Afterall, it's totally my business that I get to vote to nullify the marriages of people I don't even know and never will. I can hardly wait to be able to vote to discriminate against another minority...oh so sweet the victory.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:44 AM By John F. Maguire
Kudos to Douglas W. Kmiec for articulating (before the fact)the legal-theoretical basis for California's Yes vote on Proposition 8. In his 2004 law review article advancing "The Procreative Argument for Proscribing Same-Sex Marriage" (Hastings Constitutional Law Quarterly, Vol. 32, No 1), Professor Kmiec addresses the question of the law's cognizance of marriage. Here is an excerpt from the abstract of Kmiec's article: "Kmiec argues that the state interest for maintaining marriage as an institution between a man and a woman is both the encouragement of procreation and its responsible treatment by heterosexual couples. Kmiec asserts that marriage and procreation are necessarily related. He anticipates and responds to contrary arguments by demonstrating the acceptance of the procreative interest does not depend upon excluding from marriage those who cannot procreate because of age or infertility.... Kmiec traces relevant history and jurisprudence to show societal and legal recognition of the link between marriage and procreation. Kmiec concludes by cautioning against analogizing between the civil-rights movement and the advocacy of same-sex marriage." I regard Professor Kmiec's article as an important contribution to the present discussion.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:02 AM By betty
even though I was glad to see the results of the election I get an awful feeling that we are going to be in for a knockdown, no-holds -barred. pitched battle if we try to do the same thing here in Massachusetts. We already tried once and failed.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:17 AM By Rick DeLano
Mr. Maguire is , needless to say, vastly mistaken above. A Basic human right is one which is enjoyed by all human beings, as a simple consequence of being human. Needless to say, a man desiring to "marry" a dog, a cat, an asparagus plant, a six year old boy, a six year old girl, or Michelle Obama, is not being deprived of any basic human right, when he is told "NO". Marriage, after all, is valid and recognized in the State of California only between a man and a woman :-) Score one for the frogs.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:35 AM By Thomas
Thank you Fr. J, that was profound....it is all clear to me now!!

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:35 AM By Peter
So tell, us, Dr. Bob, using your logic, why a sterile hetersexual male should be allowed to marry? Or menopausal women? In this regard, same-sex marriages ARE "similarly situated" on the same level for equal protection as are "barren" married heterosexual couples in fulfilling their marriage. Nice try. If the California Supreme Court doesn't declare the amendment to be in violation of the equal protection clause, it will instead be addressed at the federal level by the very gay-friendly Obama/Biden/Emanuel administration, first through the repeal of DOMA, then ratification of Hate Crimes legislation . . . and then so on. The real "agenda" was to get Obama elected; in California, Proposition 8 was just a strategic distraction . . . like it or not, Thomas Edward Miles makes a very cogent point.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:12 PM By Elizabeth
It's time for these poor souls to cease and desist this nonsense..... And work on saving their souls!!!!!!!!!!

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:53 PM By Stanley H
Charles C, I am no fan of gay marriage, but hetereosexuals are as guilty of treating marriage as a sham as much as gay people. Hetereosexuals need to clean up their acts as well.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:23 PM By Lot
Two men cohabitating is not marriage; it creates nothing, it is unnatural and is responsible for the spread of a disease that has killed millions. Marriage is rooted in human nature itself; one man and one woman procreating children and raising a family-the future society. The "gay" lobby wanted to get sodomy defined as "marriage" so they could use the force of law to punish anyone who won't go along by hitting them with made up discrimination or hate crime statutes. Woe to society if these people grab power. What was done to confuse children in a kindegarten in norther california by their female teacher should set the state on fire with outrage.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:58 PM By Ron
Thomas Edward Miles: Everyone can see through you rainbow sunglasses. Don’t go away mad, just go away.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:00 PM By JLS
Marriage is a mandate, obligation, command, or whatever one wants to term it. It is the natural state of mankind, the state willed by God, the only exception to which is to serve the Church more fully as a non-married celibate.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:06 PM By Todd SF
Dr, Bob, I guess sterile heterosexual couples cannot get married or anyone past the child bearing age cannot legally be married. Your arguement does not hold water. In a few years gays will be able to get married much to the disappointment of the bigots here.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:07 PM By Jack
Sore losers...but losers none the less. The courts should be dismantled if they try to undermine teh will of the people. Seriously!

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:28 PM By Dan
"In reply to Life Lady: You call it a privilege but that is mistaken. The right to marry is a basic human right." John, I think part of the problem is your statement is too general. I do not have a right to marry my sister, my cat, my mom or someone else's wife. And since you appeal to the Incarnation, you also ought to appeal to the Natural Law, which determines the nature of marriage itself. This you don't seem to do, at least here.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 3:31 PM By marjorie
No, and these poor persecuted gay people will never give in to this unjust law. It is discrimination pure and simple. That there should be such a law on the books in this day and age is incomprehensible.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 4:09 PM By Eileen
Thomas Edward Miles. You ask what is next for Gays and Lesbians? Hopefully their conversion to at least have a flicker of a desire to not offend God because of their personal cross. It was a clever marketing tool to try and convince people that Rosa Parks and same sex marriage are equal. You have misrepresented the true meaning of the words tolerance and discrimination. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity. That dignity does not include the (apparently not so well marketed in Ca.) fantasy that same sex people are entitled to marriage because they say so. Many people suffer cruelty and rejection for various reasons. Sometimes it is for the clothes they wear. Sometimes it is just pure cruelty for no reason at all. Handicapped individuals who are treated terribly but have the dream of wanting to be an astronaut do not get to sue people and retaliate because they don't get their way. It is wrong to be cruel to anyone. It is a lie to promote the fantasy that same sex marriage is in the same category as Rosa Parks being forced to the back of the bus because of skin color. There were probably a few people who struggled with same sex attraction sitting right in the front row and middle seats on the same day that Rosa was told to go and sit in the back. No one bothered them. They were being treated with dignity because their interior struggles were personal and private. God was always there to help them. The same can be said for the other passengers who were dealing with other various personal interior trials on the bus that day. Rosa was singled out because of the exterior color of her skin. Using the comparison of Rosa's circumstance to promote a greater evil that offends God Who created Adam and Eve is a transparent and deceptive strategy. Love the sinner but don't help the sinner to sink even lower. The next level down could be hell. Thomas Edward, believe God and His Word.....you would definetely prefer to sit in the back of the bus over a second in Hell.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:19 PM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Dan: The right to marry is not a generalization; it is an intensification. In other words, the right to marry is not derogated by the (long) list of impedimenta that preclude between certain persons from the exercise of this right. You've already mentioned some of these impedimenta.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:36 PM By Br. Charles
Amen, Thomas Edward Miles. It is the will of the people that the courts adjudicate questions of law. It is a right of the people to use the courts. Those who speak against the courts show their contempt for the will of the people.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:20 PM By Anne T.
Thomas Edward Miles, those who practice incest and beastiality are in the minority too. Shall we allow brothers to marry brothers, and mothers to marry sons and men to marry dogs and women to marry horses? Get real! Your statement is asinine.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:29 PM By Harvey
God created marriage primarily for pro-creation and secondarily for a man and woman to enjoy each other's company taking care of each other for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health until death do them part. These delirious and decadent gays and lesbians haven't figured it out yet that their dispicable sex acts are not going to be blessed by God with children! Soooo doesn't it make sense that because they can not fulfill the primary reason for marriage established by God, their is NO cause for marriage between them? Why should these deviants of society stain a privilege created by God reserved for only a man and a woman? To do otherwise is only mocking God and severe consequences will follow without remorse and amend from their gay and lesbian lifestyles. They are discriminating on the rights of the rest of the 98% of man-kind by trying to shove their devil inspired behavior upon us, by trying to make us think we are the bad guys, when in fact it is the gays and lesbians whom are BAD. It doesn't surprise me that the wicked American Communist Lawyers Union (ACLU) is involve in the frenzy, they are the most evil organization in the US, and out to destroy America's love and open-heartedness for God.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:37 PM By ssoldie
It will be very interesting to see just what judges will be appointed into high places.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:49 PM By Anne T.
A correction to my e-mail for Thomas Edward Miles. I will replace the words "your statement is asinine" with the words " your conclusion is false." I will soften it a bit.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:49 PM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Rick DeLano: The right to marry can be exercised only by two marriageable persons, one a man, the other a woman. There is no marriage-related post of mine on this or any other website that has failed to say so, either explicitly or implicitly. Maybe I've missed something here, but I am hard-pressed, Rick, to see how your reference to what theologians call "non-apt matter" (infants, asparagi, etc.) speaks against my claim that marriage is a basic-human/God-given right. The natural-law truth that the right to marry is a God-given right, not a grant by the state, can be seen by way of its brutal contradiction. The Nazi race-state, when it "dissolved" most extant marriages between Catholic + Jewish spouses, attacked precisely the God-given right of these spouses to enter and maintain their marriages. *** Since God instituted marriage in (original) mankind's prelapsarian state as a monogamous institution, sexual exclusivity is one of the essential properties of marriage (compare polyandry [having several men] and polygyny [having several women]).

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:02 PM By Anne T.
Eilleen, your last post is well stated and true. The homosexual community is going to push so hard that the pendulum is going to swing back so far that eventually they are going to lose everything they have gained because people are going to be so fed up with all this.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:46 PM By Margie
Thomas Edward Miles, I think you out in left field.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:54 PM By JLS
Todd SF, true marriage is fulfilling God's command. It is a reflection of the union within the Holy Trinity. Going against God is a destructive action, which damages individuals and society. Our purpose is to live by the will of God.

Posted Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:59 PM By JLS
marjorie, the reason why it seems incomprehensible to you is likely due to a "seared conscience" which is explained by St Paul. When one is persistently involved in grave sin, then one's mind consistently devolves its ability to comprehend. This is why the homosexual activists are the most aggressively hostile to the Church; these people have devolved through the most abyssmal of sinful living until they do not comprehend much at all. Thus they have lost also their sense of self restraint.

Posted Saturday, November 08, 2008 2:59 PM By MarkF
Another upside down argument of the homosexual propagandists is that they will talk about how the Christian belief that homosexuality is wrong produces parents who abuse, ostracize, disown and even physically assault their children who are homosexuals. Again, these apologists for homosexuality lay the blame for this on Christianity, and again the real truth is shown when they story is stood on its head. As I've said before, homosexuality comes from a disturbed childhood. Sometimes this familial disturbance is subtle, both other times it is obvious and abusive. I'm not saying that all families who raised homosexual kids are abusive, but many, many are. So when you hear some sob story about the maltreatment of a homosexual child by a parent, don't see this is a story of the virtues of homosexuality and the evils of the Christian belief that it is a sin. What these cases show, and there are many of them, is that homosexual children are frequently produced by families that have pre-existing psychological problems in the first place. This is just the opposite of what the homosexual activists claim. Their claim is that they all grew up in wonderful and loving households. Yet somehow, according to their thinking, many of the wonderful and loving families somehow end up abusing and beating their kids up when they find out the kids is a homosexual. Christianity is blamed for this too. This makes no sense. If these families were so great to begin with, they wouldn't abuse their kids when they find out they're homosexual. The truth is that these families had problems all along. Healthy families do not all of a sudden become abusive. These problems lead to the child's homosexuality in the first place. We're going to have to stand up for ourselves and fight the propaganda that is filling this country up. I've shown the real truth which is that homosexuality is seen in people who are psychologically weak, and that it often comes from abusive families.

Posted Saturday, November 08, 2008 3:10 PM By Aaron
So let me cut to the chase. While I am disappointed about the passage of Prop 8, life must go on. My interest in all this is for gays to have equal rights; I don't care if it is called gay marriage or civil unions-the point is that I believe the FEDERAL government is completely wrong in granting hundreds of rights to traditional married couples and VERY SPECIFICALLY passing laws that DENY civil rights to gay couples. I am exiled in Spain because of one of these laws. The US government specifically denies gay couples the right to sponsor their foreign partners for immigration (part of the Defense of Marriage Act-1996). Call our relationship whatever you want- married, civil union , queer combination-it makes no difference. What we must have is EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS (e.g., joint tax returns, immigration sponsorship, inheritance rights, social security survivor benefits). It is completely wrong that a surviving gay partner of a 50 year partnership is tossed out of his home because he couldn't afford to pay the federal income tax on the escalated price of the property (gays are specifically not allowed to inherit deceased partner property tax free under the IRS survivor benefits law.)..I completely understand Catholics being upset at the use of the words "gay marriage." ...I don't care about the words used to describe my 100% monogamous commitment to Tomas, I just want legal recognition of our relationship and equal rights....it is not fair that I had to move to Spain in order to maintain my 8 year commitment to Tomas.

Posted Saturday, November 08, 2008 3:22 PM By MarksMom
Professor Kmiec is a heretic and apostate leading many astray. He should be excommunicated from the Catholic Church and go form his own. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah. California has won a reprieve from a repeat of that.

Posted Saturday, November 08, 2008 9:54 PM By Question
I will repeat an earlier comment: how did such a small minority of persons get such prominence and power in US politics (not to mention the world)? Is it because the media, academia, and popular culture favor gay politics?

Posted Saturday, November 08, 2008 11:30 PM By John F. Maguire
In further reply to Life Lady: In addition, your claim that marriage is not a fundamental right but rather a privilege runs contrary to positive human law. This law, as Thomas Aquinas has shown, "partakes" of the natural law. Happily, the Supreme Court decisions over the last fifty years have defended marriage as a natural right. As the Marriage Law Project at the Catholic University of America has noted, "The most famous [such decision] is _Loving v. Virginia_ (388 U.S. 1 (1967)), in which the Court struck down Virginia's anti-miscegenation statute. In _Loving_, the Court held that the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental right to marry that cannot be restricted because of the race of the man or woman being married." See Lynn D. Wardle, "_Loving v. Virginia_ and the Constitutional Right to Marry, 1790-1990," 41 Howard Law Journal 271 (1998); also see Douglas W. Kmiec, "The Procreative Argument for Proscribing Same-Sex Marriage," 32 Hasting Constitutional Law Quarterly 1 (2004).

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:43 AM By Michel
Br. Charles, this is not about the will of the people. It is about the will of GOD.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:29 PM By Grisha
Hey Question: It's because a lot of us hetrosexual people who have gay family, friends, co-workers, fellow parishoners etc. think they ought to be treated with respect and not suibject to discrimination.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:29 PM By Sister Act
In reply to JLS: Your post is not as clear as it should be that the Holy Church recognizes three vocational "states of life" rather than two. To be sure, there is the vocation to the religious life and there is the vocation to the married life but there is also the vocation to the single life. This vocation is a real vocation, but it has been scanted by early protestant culture, late-protestant culture, and today, post-protestant culture. Unfortunately, all three of these forms of culture have failed to take into account the reality of the vocation to the single life. In Catholic Christianity, by contrast, the vocation to the single life figures within a fully complementary differentiation of states of life. Catholic catechesis--today as yesterday--holds that there is but one primary vocation in this life, namely: to know, love, and serve God in this life and be happy with Him in the next. Within this one vocation, however, there are three different states of life. We risk falling short by a third if we acknowledge only two out of three.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:45 PM By Anne T.
Amen, Michel. When the judges decisions are perverted, God's will is enforced. Notice since Prop 8 went through, a return to having rain in California, which we desparately need to avoid wildfires such as the ones last summer. Deuteronomy 12: 13-15, "If they obey my commandments, which I command you this day that you love the Lord your God, and serve him with all your heart, and with all your soul: He will give to your land the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your corn, and your wine, and your oil, and your hay out of the fields to feed your cattle; and that you may eat and be filled. Beware lest perhaps your heart be deceived: and you depart from the Lord, and serve strange gods, and adore them. And the Lord being angry shut up heaven, that the rain come not down, nor the earth yield her fruit: and you perish quickly from the excellent land, which the Lord will give you." Now we need to get rid of abortion and embryonic stem-cell reasearch and replace it with cord-blood or adult stem-cell research, and we will be doing just fine.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:37 PM By Mea Culpa
The homosexuals are also having a hissy fit in the streets of West Los Angeles. They are still carrying around "No on Prop. 8" signs AFTER the election is over. Maybe somebody should explain to them that after the election is over, people can't vote anymore. Since the election is over, these demonstrations aren't about trying to influence voters - they're just acting like little children - we didn't get our way, so now we're going to have a tantrum. They'd better get used to it, because we're tired of them pushing their homosexual agenda on us and our children and we are fighting back.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM By Mark from PA
Thank you for sharing your story Aaron. God bless you and Tomas. Vaya con Dios. La Paz - Mark from PA

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 4:33 PM By Mea Culpa
I'm glad they don't let homosexuals sponsor their "partners" for immigration. There's already too much immigration - we need to only let desirable people with skills like doctors and engineers immigrate - not undesirables like homosexuals. We'd be importing a lot of AIDS and other diseases if we did that. Plus there would be more homosexuals to cause problems in our streets like the current demonstrators who are out having a little tantrum because they didn't get their way.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:02 PM By Art
In the case of a minority group fighting for its constitutional rights they know the squeeky wheel gets the grease. They will continue to fight for what they believe in no matter what the religious right thinks or does to try and stop them.

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:42 PM By Mark from PA
Mea Culpa - "And they will know we are Christians by our love." Do you think that Jesus only loves "desirable people?"

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:06 PM By Grisha
Hey Mea Culpa: How about homosexual doctors and engineers?

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:53 PM By MarkF
Aaron, the so-called "equal rights" that you want are not basic human rights. Basic human rights are such things like privacy, freedom of speech, freedom of petition, the right to a fair trial. The rights that you cite - joint income tax return, the right to not pay income tax on inherited property, etc - these are special rights that are granted through the political process by Congress and the states to married people because marriage is beneficial to society. Congress and the states could take away those privileges from married couples tomorrow and that would still be constitutional. Congress and the states could add all sorts of further benefits granted to married couples tomorrow too. Nothing in the constitution guarantees joint income tax status or the exclusion from certain taxes to married people. That is a political choice and not a matter of rights. As far as your right to marry goes, you have the right to marry a woman of your choice. You have as much a right to marriage as anyone. You say you that your choice to marry absolutely whomever you wish is a right. Well no. I do not have the right to marry my sister, or my mother. This is exactly what you are asking for - the right to marry whomever you wish. You are saying that it is the total right of the individual, and that society (and legislatures) have to right to restrict it. If that is what you wish, then how can we still have laws that restrict marriage to people who are not close blood relations? I would like to hear an answer to that, but not one that says that you personally don't want that, or not one that says it just won't happen. I'd like to know by what matter of law can we grant you the freedom to marry whomever you want, but still not allow incestuous marriages?

Posted Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:48 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, just about everyone in california has homosexual family members, whether by blood or marriage, or near or distant. That does not mean we should condone the behavior. I find many are still stuck in adolescent and have never grown up emotionally.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM By R. J. Keyes
In reply to MarkF: Your argument that the "maritalization" of same-sex unions would open the door to incest has a hyperbolic cast to it for the obvious reason that it skips over the central argument against this "maritalization." For that argument, see Douglas W. Kmiec, "The Procreative Argument for Proscribing Same-Sex Marriage," 32 Hastings Constitutional Law Quartlerly 1 (2004). Nor is your "we"/"you" polemic on point. The right to marry marriagiable persons is a natural right, not something "we [the people] grant."

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 7:28 AM By Grace
The top six U.S. male serial killers were all gay: • Donald Harvey claimed 37 victims in Kentucky; • John Wayne Gacy raped and killed 33 boys in Chicago, burying them under his house and in his yard; • Patrick Kearney accounted for 32, cutting his victims into small pieces after sex and leaving them in trash bags along the Los Angeles freeways; • Bruce Davis molested and killed 27 young men and boys in Illinois; • A gay sex-murder-torture ring (Corll-Henley-Brooks) sent 27 Texas men and boys to their grave; and • Juan Corona was convicted of murdering 25 migrant workers (he "made love" with their corpses). A study of 518 sexually-tinged mass murders in the U.S. from 1966 to 1983 determined that 350 (68%) of the victims were killed by those who practiced homosexuality and that 19 (44%) of the 43 murderers were bisexuals or homosexuals.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 9:51 AM By Peter
"How can we still have laws that restrict marriage to people who are not close blood relations?" Close blood relations lead to genetic and often fatal abnormalities in offspring.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 12:38 PM By Mea Culpa
Mark from PA - we're not talking about Jesus' love, we're talking about immigration policy in regards to homosexuals. In addition to bringing in AIDS and other diseases, there would be a lot of fraud. Homosexuals don't have long-term relationships - their "lifestyle" is based on promiscuity, so anyone they "sponsored" would only be their "flavor of the moment" - probably someone they met as a sex-tourist. We'd have a lot of homosexual prostitutes immigrating - not very high on the "desirable" list.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 12:42 PM By Mea Culpa
Grisha - as for homosexuals doctors and engineers that want to immigrate here - there are plenty of people that want to immigrate to the United States, so if there's a choice between a homosexual engineer and a normal engineer - we should definitely choose the normal engineer. They're a lot less likely to have AIDS or other diseases, and they won't be out tying up traffic by carrying around a "No on Prop 8" sign 5 days after the election is over (how dumb do you have to be not to realize that once the election is over, people can't vote anymore?)

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 12:53 PM By Anne T.
Yes, incest does, Peter, and sodomy leads to other diseases and the tearing of the rectum.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 4:24 PM By The other Mike
They really are an anti-social bunch, aren't they!!

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 6:55 PM By MarkF
To R. J. Keyes, you gave me a familiar but confusing answer. I stated that if we take the position that marriage is a civil right that is open to whomever we chose, that will inevitably lead to marriage between members of the same family. If the standard is that the state has no interest in regulating marriage, then it really does become a free-for-all. I asked a specific question as to exactly what would prevent marriages between first cousin, or a brother and sister? Your answer was that what I said was "hyperbole." Well perhaps, but that's no real answer, is it? This is what I get from homosexual propagandists when I ask how can we still have laws against incest now - I get, "It just won't happen." That's hardly reassuring. You then cite some article that I don't have access to. Perhaps you could explain it in your own words. Also you said something about how I talked in terms of "us" and "them." I am a person who lived as a homosexual for thirty years. Peter gave another bogus argument when he says that incest will always be outlawed because of potential genetic problems. This sounds good but we do not prohibit marriage between people who are the carriers of genetic diseases. There are no genetic tests given to determine if the man and woman are not going to pass on genetic defects. People have the right to risk the genetic health of their children without the states' interference. So if you change the law so that anyone can marry whomever they feel, the state will not be able to prevent incestuous relationships. I still am waiting for the legal explanation of how marriage can be a civil right with no restrictions placed on the individual (as gay activists want) without it opening it up to incestuous marriages and polygamy.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 6:59 PM By Trudy
Well, Mea Culpa, if you're ever in an emergency room suffering from serious injury or illness (where your life might be hanging in the balance), be certain to ask the treating physician if he, or she, is Gay or Straight. You might want to have that information before you allow a Gay Doctor to save your life, or the life of someone you love. Such prejudice is unworthy of our country and our church.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 7:43 PM By Anne T.
Grace, you can add to that list Jeffrey Dahmer. He tortured to death 17 young men, then even practiced acts of necrophilia and cannibalism on them after they were dead.

Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 11:03 PM By John
Grace, we must be sure to give the countless heterosexual serial killers their due credit. According to the various sources (who knows the truth?), there's Ted Bundy (35 people alleged), Robert Charles Browne (48 alleged), Donald Henry Gaskins (more than 200 alleged), Charles Cullen (Catholic,40 alleged), Henry Lee Lucas (hundreds alleged), David Parker Ray (60 alleged), Gerard John Schaefer (34 alleged), Gerald Stano (41 alleged), Coral Eugene Watts (100? alleged), and many, many, many more. And we should also mention that the standard serial killer profile is a white male heterosexual between 25-35 years old. Yes, heterosexual. But who isn't heterosexual? To listen to many on this forum, everyone is heterosexual, no exceptions, so that means all serial killers are actually heterosexual. It's also said that most serial killers "were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists." But like you demonstrate, anything can be said.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:08 AM By Bruce M.
It takes a 2/3's vote to change the federal constitution. Why does it surprise anyone that the same is true of the California constitution? The mechanism that allows a simple majority vote for amendments via initiative was intended for minor additions (not changes) to the constitution. It was never intended for major Equal Protection issues. Would it be acceptable if a 51% vote banned churches, or inter-racial marriage, or a woman's right to vote?

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:29 AM By Mark from PA
Grace and Anne T, do you want to start listing all the straight criminals? There are a lot more of them. What do these criminals have to do with gay Catholics and Christians that are living good lives?

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:36 AM By Ski Ven
MarkF, thanks for posting here. You are awesome! Since you are effective, they are going to target you. I am sure that you have already scored enough points to make it to the top of their enemies list. What they probably are going to start doing is post a comment in every thread that you have posted to that attempts to malign you by saying that you say it is okay to kill gay people, that you secretly delight in the deaths of gay people, or that your words are full of hate. Be prepared for their attempts to assassinate your character. Grace and Anne T., thanks for your contributions as well.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:43 AM By Mea Culpa
Yes, Trudy, any opposition to the homosexual agenda must be denounced as "prejudice" - and also unpatriotic and unChristian. I was discussing allowing homosexuals to sponsor their sex partners for immigration. There was no mention of being treated in a hospital. The United States has the right, and the duty, to protect its borders and regulate who we allow into our country. What would be the benefit of mass immigration of homosexuals into the United States? We could become to countries what San Francisco has become to cities. But then again, isn't that what the homosexual activists want?

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:31 AM By Ski Ven
Catholic News Agency has a nice article about the violent actions of the homosexual fascists. The hateful actions of these anti-God bigots is proof of their hatred.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:38 AM By JLS
God's law against "line breeding" in humans does not refer to genetics. I do not believe that the issue is genetic but something more substantial. Animals can be line breed and if done well, this actually improves the health and qualities. There is an example in the story of Jacob, one of the Patriarchs of God's people. He is given charge of his uncle's flocks and God teaches him how to breed for specific characteristics. There is no reference to how close the relationship between the breeding animals. What appears to be overlooked in this marriage argument is the definition of human marriage which is delivered to us from the beginning by God. Man did not devolve from Adam and Eve through brother sister marriage, but through sin and its effects. It was only with Abraham that God specified the incest tabu. The Egyptian empires did just fine with brother sister marriage. And so with the Hawaiians. Therefore, the objective of God in forbidding incest marriage is other than genetic; by the same token, as Jesus teaches, prior to His advent, it was acceptable to God for a man to have multiple wives, and this institution was regulated by social custom likely according to natural law. So, there was a series of steps in the nature of marriage which has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, since the Law is fulfilled by Him.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:10 AM By John F. Hughes
Reading many of the comments above makes me ashamed to be a Catholic. Christ's teachings are about love and tolerance; not hatred, divisiveness, and ignorance. Gay and lesbian couples should not be allowed to marry in the Catholic Church. It is a violation of our religious beliefs. However, gays and lesbians marrying in other churches or in civil ceremonies is truly none of our business. Let's wish them well in their lives, pray for them if we feel it's necessary, and start paying attention to things that really are our business.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:16 AM By Fr. M.P.
Everyone google for "Crazy lefties attack old lady at No on 8" and see the abuse of evil-doers and their supporters. Is this what true Christians can look forward to from those who claim to be tolerant?

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:08 PM By Peter
"Is this what true Christians can look forward to from those who claim to be tolerant? " Absolutely. This is what happens as a result of the church wading into politics. You can't start a campaign to deny others their civil rights then expect them to just shrug and leave it alone. That's like telling Rosa Parks to be content with sitting in the back of a bus and to be happy that she even got to ride the bus. You can complain all you want about homosexual intolerance of your "position" .... but I assure you, the fact that you demand respect for the beliefs which oppress us, is nothing less than a declaration of war.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:18 PM By MarkF
To John F. Hughes...you are wrong about Jesus. Jesus did not preach tolerance of sin, he taught us to repent of our sins and to live a life that is not of the flesh. Your words make Jesus into a namby-pamby liberal do-gooder. Consider the words of Luke 12:51-52, "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; and or henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." There are many other scriptures like this. Remember what St. Jerome said, "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." Also when you assume that it is none of our business if homosexuals get married civilly, that is wrong on two counts. One is that you are assuming that homosexuality is neutral in its effects on the individual and society when it's not. Homosexual life is filled with and causes all sorts of psychological, medical and social problems. Based on human reason alone and not religion when can decide that marriage should only be between one man and one woman. The other mistake you make is that you assume that we should leave our faith out of the public square. This is the attitude that got us into the mess we're in, of which homosexuality is only the latest symptom. The Church say by while politicians gave us divorce on demand, free access to birth control, and made heterosexual promiscuity a protected civil right (by adding marital status to the non-discrimination statues). The Church sat by when we did not punish companies who grant marital benefits to anyone they happen to be co-habitating with on that day. We are waking up slowly now, but most of the damage has been done already, and it was done by straight people.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:37 PM By MarkF
To Mark from PA, the point of listing all the homosexual serial killers (which is not something that I did) I think was to show the instability in the homosexual community. The real point here is that with homosexuals making up only a small percentage of the population, it turns out that a huge percentage of serial killers are homosexuals. Naming all the straight serials killers is meaningless, as straight people are 95% of the population.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:03 PM By JLS
Marriage and souls are God's business, and the Church is God's Holy Instrument to bring about the discipline of His Love and Law throughout the world, in all its dark corners.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:21 PM By Richard
Fr.MP, that "old lady" wasn't herself attacked (although her prejudices and message were attacked) and she wasn't too old to go looking for trouble. She found and received what she was looking for and she'd have to be a crazy old lady if she expected a different response. A similar response would reasonably be expected if one showed up at a McCain rally with an Obama sign, or if you walked down the street in a white hood carrying a burning cross. She set her cross on fire with her intent.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:33 PM By Trudy
Yes, MP, and there were plenty of attacks on innocent No On 8 People by the Yes On 8 crowd here. My daughter-in-law was accosted by those kooks (the Yes On 8 People) as she was going into the grocery store. They were demanding to know how she was going to vote on Prop 8. When she told them it was none of their business, they started screaming at her. That's Not Catholicisn; That's Facism.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:23 PM By MarkF
Every time I see things like this I think back to how it must have been for St. Paul to preach to the pagans in antiquity. We see the same inflamed spirit of rebellion and hatred of God in both times. As Christians we should step back a bit and realize that God will prevail, whether in ten years or a thousand years. I will leave aside for others the ridiculous comments by Richard, but will take up one of his points, and as I've found before you can make sense out of things like this by standing it on its head. Richard compared this old lady with her cross with the Klan carrying the burning cross. This was meant to insult Christianity but instead it show something else. Richard sees this in terms of earthly politics, which it isn't really. But in insulting the cross, Richard reveals a powerful truth about it. The true cross of Christ does burn - it gives light and consumes sin. This is why the homosexual activists are against Christ and his cross. This is why the cross provokes such reaction in a godless group like this. So in that sense their reaction was understandable. Again, the cross will prevail so we don't need to be afraid, even as we work in the world to fight these dark forces.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:36 PM By Sister Joan Clair
Mea Culpa---You're kidding, right? You have to be. Your ideals are laughably stereotypical. Does anyone ever run out of """""quotation """""" marks?"""""""" on this board? I appreciate the faith and belief in many of these posts, but the "insinuating" "quote marks" are a too much punctuation graffiti for me.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:01 PM By Margie
MarkF, the "homosexual community" is not unstable but instead is stably persistent across history at a rather stable rate across societies. That a larger percentage of homosexuals may act out when compared to heterosexuals is understandable given the prejudice against them by the heterosexual majority. It does not mean that homosexuality causes people to act out. Some people confuse correlation with causation. Perhaps you are among them or are supporting such confusion with your posts. So while you may believe you're "showing the instability of the homosexual community," you may well be participating in the cause by your own actions. God have mercy on you.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:40 PM By Mea Culpa
google "crazy lefties attack old lady at no on 8" for a great example of exactly what the homosexuals mean by "tolerance." They mean, we have to accept any sinful, immoral, degrading filth they push on us and our children, but we're not allowed to say anything, or even display a cross. These are homo-nazis, and they won't be satisfied until there is no Christianity and they have thoroughly debased society to their own perverted level.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:47 PM By Mea Culpa
Sister Joan Clair - I'm old enough that I remember when nuns were faithful brides of Christ, wore habits, and didn't put up with any nonsense from kids in Catechism class. I can't imagine old Sister Mary Margaret thinking that being against homosexual "marriage" would be "laughably stereotypical." I guess she was wasn't "liberated" enough.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:17 PM By JLS
Trudy, it's free speech guaranteed by the Republic of the United States' Constitution's Bill of Rights. Fascism does not allow free speech.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:17 PM By Rose
Watching how the No on 8 people are acting is really hurting their cause! Grabbing a cross out of an old lady's hand and throwing it on the ground and stepping on it at a a rally! No respect for anyone's beliefs! They are as bad as terrorist!! They will not tolerate anyone else's freedom of speech! I'm with Mea Culpa!!

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:25 PM By JLS
Bruce M., Prop 8 does not change the State Constitution, but clarifies it. There is a big difference. There has never been a Constitutional right for same sex people to marry, or for transexuals and other works of skulduggery.

Posted Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:27 PM By JLS
Margie, your lack of reasoning in suggesting that it is social pressure against homosexuals which causes them to act out is noted. Sodom and Gomorrah had no social pressure against them ... and in fact tried to use aggressive and unsavory social pressure to force Lot to hand over the angels of God so the Sodomites could rape them.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 AM By Margie
JLS, my post was addressing serial killers, not Sodom, and not once did I use the phrase "social pressure" or claim any factor was singular. As to Sodom, If you want to pretend to know about Sodom based on a few Bible verses, that's your fantasy. But if you look around you, you can see that people tend to use what they've learned, including using social pressure because it's been used against them previously if not currently. So to claim that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "had no social pressure against them" is highly doubtful. Indeed, it would be bizarre.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:45 AM By Margie
JLS, your claim that Prop 8 "does not change the state constitution" and that there's "never been a constitutional right for same sex people to marry" is in direct disagreement with the ballot itself which said, "CHANGES the California Constitution to eliminate the RIGHT of same-sex couples to marry in California." It was by the ballot itself a change to eliminante a right, and one cannot eliminate a right if it does not exist. That is what the voters were called to vote on. You can claim the ballot was wrong, but if you voted on a "clarification," you did not vote for what's on the ballot but for a fiction of your imagination.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:53 AM By Mark from PA
Margie, I think you made some valid points. I also agree with what John F Hughes said. JLS, I find it interesting you speak out against agression. Many of the people here are agressive in their hatred of homosexuality and disdain for gay people.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:49 AM By Hater Ski Ven
Trudy, the difference between your post and Father M.P.'s post is that yours lacks a verifiable source.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:21 AM By MarkF
Margie, is your position that homosexuality is not a sin? Is it your position that it does not produce anything bad? My experience of over thirty years in it is that it is a destructive lifestyle. It is always destructive to the soul, and is almost always destructive to one's life outside of the Church. There's an idea floating out there that says that sin is just a mean old God's way of ruining our fun. That idea says that sin has no earthly effects; it's just something that God arbitrarily tells us not to do and that left on our own we can't tell the difference between sin and good. But this is not true. Sinners aren't happy, they're miserable. Sin produces real negative consequences in this life. So given that homosexuality is a sin, we're going to see a lot of problems in people who habitually do this sort of thing. I know I have in my own life. The main consequence is that it separates us from God, as seen in the way that the homosexual activists grabbed that cross away from the older women and destroyed it. My experience with homosexual is that they are filled with self-hatred. This is why they cannot brook any criticism of themselves. For whatever reason I was spared from a lot of that self-hatred. I suspect that this is one factor that lead me to be able to get away from it. Most homosexuals have trouble hearing that it's a sin without turning in on themselves in a nearly suicidal spiral. Since that endangers them, they turn that inner criticism back on to the world, as we have seen in the recent attacks on supporters of Prop 8. The guilty conscience lashes out at the world to try to silence itself. But the root problem of this is not the Church, or society. It is that homosexuality itself weakens the soul and mind to the point where no criticism of it can be made without producing this reaction. Yes it's a problem in how to deal with such a touchy crowd, but the answer is not to approve of this destructive way of life.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:54 AM By Sister Joan Clair
Mea Culpa +++++ Me, too, so we could be around the same age. In first grade, one of those Brides of Christ tied my left hand around my back to force me to write with my right (i.e. correct) hand, standard practice at my school. That began my long journey with 'what's the matter with me-ism', why was God mad at me? What on earth? Why should a first grader even think such things? Sister Joseph Lorenzo was one of those women in a habit that didn't take any guff- she smacked 3rd & 4th graders across the face with a ruler if they mis-quoted their verses-also sanctioned by the school & church. (Although she was one of only two that actually taught us verses from the Book. I suppose I should be what, grateful?) The old "Shove the misbehaver in the cloak room" game was played too. My nom de plume was diligent about corporal punishment, if that's what you mean by not 'putting up with any nonsense from kids.' So I've walked in your shoes a few miles, 12 years plus. Got an interesting yet superlative education. Our shared Sister Mary Margaret could well be stereotypical for one of those people, but from someone who has not stepped up to the Altar and taken that vow, I am wondering where the impetus comes from for you to voice what comes across as venom & bigotry? I can only charitably assume that it's fear, as humbly honest Roman Catholics would never slander another person in defense of their own religiosity. It is one thing to decry what you know in your heart as wrongful behavior according to the precepts you hold as true, and say so here. This is part of what happened with Prop. 8. It's quite another to take the place of the ultimate Judge and Jury on the subject. That's why I said 'laughably stereotypical.' When people look for ways to sum up entire bodies of population, they see your (and those similar) opinions and hold that up as a measure of Catholic intolerance. It's easier to believe the worst abaout people. Some on these boards do the same judging by the Prop. 8 viewpoints. (Or any recent items hitting the boards.) I think that as Catholics, that is something to be avoided. Even in not opening the door for the 'do whatever you like' in the name of RCism- crowd,

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:32 PM By Eileen
Sister Joan Clair, Does your treasured vow of revenge on the very old or deceased Sister Joseph Lorenzo include posts that will make all Sisters look bad? Sister Joan Clair, you don't trust in God enough. God says, "Revenge is Mine Alone". Revealing your lack of forgiveness to the entire blogosphere is inconsistent with the gospel or being liberated. You are locked in a time warp prison of unforgiveness. In the same measure that we forgive, will we be forgiven. You must be pretty confident in your own record of perfection.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:50 PM By Marlene
Joan Clair, You confuse the living day-lights out of me. Considering your negative comments about Sister Joseph Lorenzo and your first grade teacher, or I dare ask are you truly a Roman Catholic nun? Like so many of the women in our modern catholic society today who claim to be nuns, you all don't seem to show it! I know of a few women claiming to be nuns, but they are only the devil in disguise! I ask that you tell us what you really think.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:51 PM By Fr. M.P.
Look at the excuses by the homosexuals justifying their violence. Peter says "nothing less than a declaration of war." Richard says "She found and received what she was looking for." Trudy asserts (without proof) that someone yelled at a homosexual supporter at some other place, so implies that this violence is justified. Mark from PA calls disagreement with the homosexual agenda "disdain for gay people." Years ago homosexuals focused on "coming out." Notice how that has turned into brazen violence, similar to Biblical Sodom, and even includes justifications. In Sodom's time the homosexuals only acted with violence without trying to rationalize it, now they claim to justify it! It will get worse and worse until God steps in, like He did for Sodom and Gomorrah. That's not too far off. Pray for these wandering souls and continue the effort for truth and nature in the public square.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:42 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, perhaps Sister Joan Clair has forgiven. But abuse is abuse. Sister Joan Clair may God bless you; I am sorry for the abuse that you suffered. Mark F, some churches do teach that homosexuality is a sin but the Catholic Church is not one of them. It is an orientation. It is interesting that you speak of self-hatred because I see that in some of your posts.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:20 PM By Margie
MarkF, homosexuality is not "a lifestyle". People who may be homosexual have many different lifestyles. Some are wonderful Catholic priests, some are not. Some are celibate, some are not. Some are happy, some are not. Some are stronger, some are weaker. Some are homebodies, some are not. Your individual experience, whatever it may be, does not dictate anyone else's. Stereotypes are just that. Homosexual persons have no monopoly on self-hatred, matters of hearing, errors in activism, etc. Such things are common problems of people of every sexual orientation, whether Catholic or not, on this message board or elsewhere.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:26 PM By JLS
Margie, you ought to try reading over your posts to see what they both say and imply.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:29 PM By JLS
PA, aggression is a natural human trait and therefore like all innate human traits is very good. Responsibility is another such trait ... lots of these traits work together. If you are still surprised, then let me know and I'll expound further.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:31 PM By JLS
Margie, finall you're beginning to see: As you say the condition of Sodom and Gomorrah were bizarre.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:13 PM By MarkF
Mark from PA, I am not going to let you get away trying to confuse people. I am asking you directly, does the Church teach that homosexual acts are sinful and do you believe that is true? You know full well that I know and believe what the Church teaches, yet you continually and repeatedly attempt to confuse what I say. I have said time and again what the Church teaches - that the homosexual inclination is disordered but that inclination in and of itself is not a sin. But the actions based on that inclination are sins, and that includes acts of fantasy and acts of desire. You want to confuse people, when in fact you're not not fooling anyone, when you attempt to imply that the Church accepts homosexual acts. I will ask you again, do you accept what the Church teaches - that the inclination is disordered, and that all acts, whether by fantasy, desire or overt action, are sinful? Do you believe that? And if you do, then why do you praise people for their active homosexuality? And if you don't agree with the Church's teaching, do you realize that you are committing a sin called heresy? Do you accept that sin produces unhappiness, and that because homosexual acts are a sinful that they produce unhappiness? I would really like to hear you directly deal with these questions, without trying to confuse the question with all sorts of distractions and stories.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:31 PM By MarkF
Margie, by homosexuality I mean the the active practice of homosexual actions. I don't mean celibate people. Also I don't deal in stereotypes. I deal in experience and in research. While you may know some people who are active homosexuals, chances are you don't know what goes on when you're not around. That's all I'm saying. My over thirty years of experience with active homosexuals is with people I've known and things I've seen and read about in the active homosexual literature. There is a two-faced nature to homosexuality, one they show to the public and the other they show to each other. I get the feeling you've never seen the second side. You allege that homosexuality is a neutral quantity, the equal of heterosexuality. I think there is some overlap, where the most secular, anti-religious straight people have lives that overlap with the least adversely effected active homosexuals. In other words, they practice serial monogamy, go from one person to the next (what's called fornication in the Bible) but aren't on drugs, etc. This is the "good" end of the homosexual world. The average and worse sides of it... well you don't want to know really. I just read an interview with former Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL) His life story is common - sexually abused as a kid, alcohol problem, inappropriate contact with young men. Of course, straight people do these things too. It's just that by all standards, active homosexuals show all kinds of pathologies are much, much higher levels. I've seen it and I've researched it. But the homosexual propagandists want desperately to cover these things up. Think about this. A recent Dutch study shows that the average PAIRED homosexual has sex with an average of eight other people a year. Is that comparable with heterosexual society? Is this behavior somehow forced on them by the liberal people of the Netherlands?

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:39 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, responsiblity is one of my traits but agression is not. I am a very non-agressive person. I would not say agression is very good, in some instances it can be very bad. In 12 years of school I never hit anyone, I was never in a fight. Since I was shy, the other kids pretty much left me alone. Actually I think I was respected because of my innate goodness. You said, "If you are still surprised ..." Surprised at what?

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:23 PM By Margie
MarkF, I'm very well acquainted with what "goes on" among "active" homosexuals, heterosexuals, pedophiles, child molesters, rapists, prostitutes, porn stars, nudists, even seminarians and priests. My experience is academic, professional and personal. Your experience is grossly limited by comparison. Your "paired" Dutch couple comparison is apples and oranges. Truth is far subtler than your limited experience has revealed to you. It's good that you're studying. Keep on studying. but don't pretend to be the teacher. You're not ready.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:40 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, many homosexual acts are sinful just as some heterosexual acts are sinful. Sexual abuse and exploitation are always gravely sinful. Promiscuity and casual sex are sinful. Did I ever say any particular acts were not sinful here? I don't think orientation or desire are sins. Does the Church consider all sexual fantasies to be sinful? I don't know. You seem to be filled with anger against me. It is somewhat disconcerting.

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:52 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, ......humbly reports. Actually, I think I was respected because of my innate goodness." Blessed Mark, when can we expect your Self-Canonization? Mark, you are not in grade school anymore but you are in a fight for your soul and so far...... You are losing! If responsibility is one of your traits, go memorize the Catechism and stop being irresponsible about saving your own soul. Please don't tell me that you lost your Catechism in the snow right after the mean priest had hurt your feelings, either. You are defending sin !

Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:08 PM By Margie
MarkF, next time you "research" the details of your "recent Dutch study", examine the sample population used and you'll see it actually excluded monogamous couples, HIV- persons and older persons as its focus was limited to promiscuous young HIV+/AIDS patients in a single urban area. It wasn't a study of "paired" so much as a study of a subset explicitly chosen for their promiscuity. A study which deliberately excludes monogamous people will always find significant promiscuity on "average". Speaking of "average", if an "average" California family has 1.01 children living at home, how many families have 1.01 children? None. Some have more, some have less. In fact, most have ZERO children living at home. The average tells us little about most in the group. And "recent" it's not. The data is more than 20 years old.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 6:48 AM By MarkF
Margie, are you saying that the homosexual community behaves the same way that the heterosexual community does? That there is no more pathology in it than the rest of the population? It is meaningless to say that there are heterosexuals who are promiscuous or what not. The question is whether the homosexuality is pathological. I know that it is. It's origins are in childhood pathology. It can hardly produce anything sound. Remember, my knowledge of this comes from the inside. As an outsider you hear only what homosexuals want you to hear.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:13 AM By Anne T.
Margie, statistics are hard to figure out, and can be easily manipulated. I know of a middle-aged homosexual man who had a male partner his own age, who thought the man was faithful to him, but the middle-aged man molested his own nephew when he and his partner took him to their house for awhile. This is one reason I do not believe in homsosexual adoption.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:18 AM By Anne T.
Regarding my last e-mail, the nephew was an under-aged teen when his uncle molested him.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:21 PM By MarkF
Anne T., this is exactly my point - it's always something. If it's not child sexual abuse, it's drug abuse. If it's not drugs, it's alcohol. If it's not alcohol, it's prostitution. The list of pathologies goes on and on. I have me a few active homosexuals who have got themselves past the drugs and what not in their past and live like the average secular person in this society. They practice serial monogamy, but still have a a huge collection of pornography. Or they have sex with outsiders because they're bored with their so-called lover. The best homosexuals will overlap with some of the lowest heterosexuals. It's like heroin or alcohol. Some people can take these things and still have a job and more or less function. But it's not like they are spiritually unaffected. I have yet to meet a homosexual who says, like Mark from PA, that he's religious whose religion was not their own homosexuality. It's no different from a straight person who practices serial monogamy who thinks their behavior is right with God. Whatever idols we make - homosexual, heterosexual, money, status, food, etc - all these things separate us from God. This is what the Bible says, it's what the Church teaches. It's what society has known for two-thousand years and it's what I've found out, the hard way.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:23 PM By Anne T.
Exactly, Mark F. The idol I am fighting right now is food. I am not horribly overweight, but enough not to fit in my clothes properly and be really, really heathly. I try to keep in mind St. Paul's admonition: Moderation in all things. He was such a wise man, but he had his battles too, which he fought til the end.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:47 PM By Margie
Anne T, resorting to anecdotal stories as you’ve done because “statistics are hard to figure out, and can be easily manipulated” is in fact just another misuse of statistics. Here's a story that might be somewhat familiar to you: I know of a middle-aged heterosexual man who had a female partner his own age (his wife), who thought the man was faithful to her, but the middle-aged man molested his own under-aged teenage niece when he and his wife took her to their house for awhile. In fact, I know of many, many such men. There are anecdotal stories about everything under the sun. That’s why quack remedies abound. Denying adoption on the basis of anecdotal stories is a quack remedy.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:55 PM By Margie
MarkF, if “The question is whether homosexuality is pathological” and “It is meaningless to say that there are heterosexuals who are promiscuous or what not,” then what is your basis that it’s not “meaningless” to say there are homosexuals “who are promiscuous or what not”? You claim your knowledge “comes from the inside”, but you have no knowledge “from the inside” that I and countless other experts don’t also have. The scientific consensus does not support your claim that homosexuality is pathological. If “childhood pathology” is the origin, then you must explain the countless heterosexuals who also experienced the alleged childhood pathology but are heterosexual along with all the homosexuals who had as pathology-free a childhood as any but are homosexual. You can continue to pretend that you are special and know more than the experts, but it’s not true. The truth is your claim is not scientific. If you want to cite Catholic teaching that calls it a disorder, that’s fine, but don’t pretend you can substantiate it otherwise, because you can’t. Anecdotal stories and misuse of statistics is not substantiation.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:00 PM By Margie
MarkF, it's “always something” with heterosexuals. “The list of pathologies goes on and on.” Just look at Anne T and her struggle with food. I have met “active heterosexuals who have got themselves past the drugs and what not in their past and live like the average secular person in this society. They practice serial monogamy, but still have a huge collection of pornography. Or they have sex with outsiders because they're bored with their so-called lover.” Or they’re eating too much or not healthy. If you’ve “yet to meet a homosexual whose religion was not their own homosexuality” then you're either blind, sheltered or self-servingly defining homosexuality as the de facto religion practiced by any homosexual person who engages in a homosexual act. Such a thing is not science or religion. It’s sophistry.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:28 PM By MarkF
Exactly! All sin is a form of idolatry. I too have that common American problem with food. Once you get what the Church teaches it all makes sense. But you can't take one part of it away and have the whole thing make sense anymore. This is what Mark from PA tries to do and it's obvious that the whole system comes crashing down as a result. The key inner concepts, off the top of my head, are self-denial, self-sacrifice, and most of all humility before the word of God. From that will flow love of others, concern for the poor and afflicted, etc. Sometimes I feel that the discussion gets too heated on here and perhaps it does. But the wider concern for all the faithful on here is that in America right now, the Church - the holy body of Christ on earth - is under assault. Jesus was not particularly tolerant of those money changers in the temple. I have seen some language by some people on here that goes over the top. As far as the matter of homosexuality goes, I do think that there is a sin of focusing on that to the exclusion of other sins. I see that a lot more in Protestant groups though, but it must happen in the Church as well. Homosexuality is a grave sin just like all other grave sins and it shouldn't be singled out. I don't think the Church does that. But on the political level, no one in America is pushing to make other grave sins socially acceptable. This is why the discussion gets so heated on this subject. The other thing we have to remember is that the struggle for decency in the US won't be won by banning same-sex marriage. It can be lost by losing this struggle but it can't be won by it. The real damage has been done by abortion, divorce, contraception, legal protections for cohabitation, spousal benefits to cohabitating couples, movies and TV that never show Christian morals, except to demonize them. It amazes me that anyone can look at the so-called sexual revolution and not see it as anything but a disaster.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:24 PM By MarkF
Margie, let me anticipate your answer. Since I cannot believe that anyone can deny that there is much more pathological behavior (drugs, alcoholism, domestic abuse, depression, paraphilia, etc.) in the homosexual world, I anticipate that you will blame all this on the mean, ol' Christian society. But as you have pointed out and I never would deny, all of these pathologies are found in the heterosexual world too. Am I wrong to assume that, broadly speaking, they stem from the same source in both the heterosexual world and homosexual? Can it really be said that incestuous thoughts in the straight world can be caused by society and not by abuse that happened as a child? Does society cause alcoholism, drug abuse, paraphilia, etc. is straight people? The standard liberal explanation is that all these things happen to homosexual because of society not approving of them? Does the same rationale also apply to the rest of the population? These things are caused not by society but by the events of childhood. These things are a problem in straight society. But they are endemic in the homosexual world. And that's because the kind of childhood that produces homosexuality is correspondingly messed up. That is unless you want to pretend that the homosexual world is as healthy as the wider community.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:56 PM By Margie
MarkF, first of all, you keep talking about "a homosexual world". There is only ONE world, the world we all live in. Second, as to whether all comes from the same source, it's basic Judeo-Christian belief that everything ultimately comes from the same source, ala "In the beginning..." Third, there are countless heterosexuals who suffered abuse as a child and yet they're heterosexual, and there are countless homosexuals who suffered no particular child abuse and yet are homosexual while their brothers and sisters are not. We don't have to limit the events of childhood to child abuse. Great and wonderful things happen in childhood. What are their effects? People, including children and adults, do not respond identically to the same events. Time, biology, education, culture and society, etc. all play together with every event, whether that event be in childhood or adulthood. Events in adulthood can have great significance, and not necessarily because of anything special about childhood. Things change, the world moves on. Some people handle it well and some do not for many reasons. Some people believe God will solve all their problems but fall apart when they don’t see it happen. Some say their faith was weak, but they had a good childhood. Others had a bad childhood but a strong faith. The blame it on childhood game is like the blame it on Christianity game. Why do you want to play games?

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:41 PM By Anne T.
My point Marge is this: if two people are living a sinful lifestyle, whether heterosexual or homosexual, they is more chance of abuse taking place, and that is fact. Fewer fathers molest their own children than step-fathers, and live-in boyfriends molest even more. Why? because their moral values are out of whack in the first place. If a man who does not have a problem with drugs or alcohol from the beginning loves a woman enough to marry her, he is less likely to abuse a son or daughter of that marriage.

Posted Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:59 PM By Anne T.
By the way, Margie, all good parents try to keep their children away from people who will corrupt them--whether it is teaching them to steal or have illicit sex. The Biblical proverb "Bad companions corrupt good morals" is as true today as it was in Solomon's time. Jesus went among sinners to help them change their ways, but since he was God Incarnate there was no chance of him sinning. The same is not so for us and our children. Sometimes we must avoid people who are trying to get us to do the wrong things.

Posted Friday, November 14, 2008 7:05 AM By MarkF
Margie, you're not saying very much with that last post. You ignored whether you believe that there is the same amount of pathology in the homosexual world as there is in the straight world. No one can believe that the homosexual world has the same rates of pathological behavior as the rest of the population. The question then is where does this come from. The common pro-homosexual view is that it's this mean ol' nasty Christian society that causes it. Well, that could be the case. Against that argument I put forth two ideas - one, that if the cause of the homosexual pathologies were societal pressure, that means we'd see less pathology now as society accepts homosexuality more now. But we don't see that. I saw a survey done by the makers of a gay sex lubricant taken at a gay pride event where about a third of them said they take club drugs once a month or more. These weren't closet cases, these were guys at a gay pride event. All this tends to show that the causes of homosexual pathology are not society. The other half is that when we see the same pathologies in the straight world, no one says it's due to society's discrimination against them. No, when we see fetishism, pedophilia, antisocial behavior, promiscuity, drugs, etc, the problems get started in childhood. You want to pretend as if we have no idea where these things come from. But almost all start in childhood. And all of this is just to protect what I assume is your own lesbianism. This is what I mean by homosexuality being a pagan god. People will do, say and think whatever to protect it. I know that I used to too. I see it everywhere on here. People will twist the scriptures upside down and inside out in order to keep their own homosexuality. On another post I said that they way out of this man-made confusion is to look at the consensus of the Church over time. The consensus is clear, beyond clear, and that is that homosexual acts are grave sins. I am proof that it can be overcome

Posted Friday, November 14, 2008 4:15 PM By Margie
Anne T, there is nothing intrinsically immoral or disordered in being a stepfather. Joseph was the stepfather of Jesus. And generally, to become a stepfather one does indeed marry. Also, many “live-in boyfriends” are married, whether under the law or in principle.

Posted Saturday, November 15, 2008 11:34 AM By MarkF
Margie said, "many “live-in boyfriends” are married, whether under the law or in principle." Come again? People can be married "in principle?" but not under the law? And I assume that Anne T. meant that if a man becomes a step-father by marrying a divorced woman, for the faithful that presents a moral difficulty, i.e, her husband is still out there, the woman is still married in the eyes of the Church. Anne is pointing out that no matter how little the society at large appreciates or disrespects Catholic teaching, the truth of it is revealed in real life, as she points out, step-fathers commit abuse at a higher rate then biological fathers. I'm curious to see if that also is true of men who became step fathers through marrying a widowed woman.

Posted Saturday, November 15, 2008 1:29 PM By Paul
I'm a stepfather. My current (and only) wife received an annulment of her first marriage before we married. I don't abuse my children, whether they be my biological children or my stepchildren. They are all my children and I love them equally. May others love their children likewise. And may others respect our marriage and not demean it in any way.

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