|
Published: November 13, 2009
Voter fatigue
Poll says Californians don’t want to revisit same-sex marriage issue anytime soon
Nearly 60 percent of California voters say they don’t want to see an initiative seeking to overturn Proposition 8 on the 2010 ballot, a recent poll by the Los Angeles Times and the University of Southern California reveals.
In a Nov. 6 story about the poll, the Times reported “almost three in five Californians did not want to revisit the issue in 2010.” The poll surveyed 1,500 registered voters between Oct. 27 and Nov. 3, said the newspaper, and was conducted by “two nationally prominent polling firms, the Democratic firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner and the Republican firm Public Opinion Strategies.”
Proponents of same-sex marriage are divided on when to attempt to place a measure before voters to overturn Proposition 8, an initiative approved by California voters in November 2008 by a margin of 52% to 48%. Proposition 8, a constitutional amendment, overturned a 4-3 state supreme court decision declaring unconstitutional legal restrictions on same-sex marriages. Prop 8 added a provision to the state constitution restricting marriage to between one man and one woman. The proposition survived a post-election challenge before the state’s high court, but is now being contested before a federal judge.
Supporters of same-sex marriage have split on whether to push for repeal of Proposition 8 next year or to wait until national elections in 2012, when many more voters are likely to go to the polls than in 2010’s off-year election. On Sept. 29, those seeking to place a repeal initiative on the 2010 ballot submitted a letter to the attorney general with the proposed wording of their measure. The letter was signed by Fr. Geoffrey Farrow, the former Fresno diocesan priest suspended from his parish and banned from the diocese for defying his bishop over Proposition 8, and eight others representing a coalition of same-sex marriage supporters. Petitions seeking to qualify another repeal initiative are already being circulated by a group calling itself Yes! On Equality, but the group appears unlikely to garner the nearly 695,000 signatures required before the Nov. 19 deadline.
Meanwhile, Equality California, the group that spearheaded opposition to Prop 8 in 2008, announced in August that its leaders had decided it would be better to wait until 2012 to seek repeal.
“The survey showed that same-sex marriage continues to reverberate differently along racial and generational lines,” the Times reported. “A little more than half of whites backed it, while slightly fewer than half of African Americans and Latinos did. All three groups, however, opposed having to vote on it in 2010.”
Fifty-one percent of those polled expressed support for same-sex marriage, while 43% said they were opposed, according to the LA Times/USC poll. But polling on the issue has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable. For example, polls taken before the vote on Proposition 8 indicated the measure would be defeated. More recently in Maine, pollsters said a measure to repeal same-sex marriage there was a dead heat, but on election day, voters rejected same-sex marriage by a margin of 53% to 47%. The issue has been put before voters now in 31 different states, and in every instance voters have rejected same-sex marriage.
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 12:21 AM By reddog
Same sex marriage will pass in California and eventually in most States. It's just a matter of time.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 4:05 AM By WOODY GUIDRY
BY YEAR 2010, lessons might be learned about what happens when same-sex marriage is pushed. That's the possible year of a Washington D.C. legalization which the Catholic Archdiocese of Washington D.C.says will put Catholics at risk for adhering to their faith. Without a broader exemption being part of proposed law, Catholic charities will have to cut back on services which will affect tens of thousands of people. The narrow exemption now proposed will force an "either-or-else" choice by the Church, i.e., be charged with discrimination-or else end government contracts with the Church for social services.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 6:41 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
Imagine of the Suffragettes of old decided to simply drop the issue of voting rights for women because people were tired of it. Imagine if Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. suspended his civil rights struggle because white people were getting "fatigued" over it. But NO: The struggle for equality goes on, and the Gay community is nothing if not patient. There will be setbacks, yes, but time is on our side, and the young voters of tomorrow are far more accepting and supportive of marriage equality for Gay couples than older voters are. Marriage equality for Gay couples may or may not happen in my lifetime, but it WILL eventually happen. And long after it does, people will wonder what all the fuss was about.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 8:17 AM By David
No one should let this poll lull them into thinking the fight is over. The gays and lesbians will not quit on this issue, and neither should their opponents. As in Maine, the gays think it's simply a war of attrition. But what's happened is that the electorate has become more opposed to extraordinary gay rights and to gay "marriage." They are more resolved than ever before and won't get worn down.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 8:37 AM By Linda
Voters are tired of perversion being pimped as normalcy. Voters don't want their children taught that aberrant behavior should be sanctioned through "marriage!" Every gay person I know has serious psychological problems, not to mention those who died of AIDS in their 30s! Normalizing deviancy makes no sense and voters are tired of hearing that it does.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 8:42 AM By Grisha
Polls have shown that support Prop. 22 has lost about a point a year since it passed. My best estimate is the if we vote on it 2010 gay marriage will lose again , but by a narrower margin. If it's on the ballot in 2012, we're looking at, I think, gay marriage maybe winning by a smidgen, certainly no more than the 4% Yes on 8 garnered. If the gay organizations wait another five years or so, it'll be a cake walk for them.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 9:41 AM By JLS
Chuck A, voting rights for women is something only a gay fantasy fanatic would liken to the sodomy rights movement. After the sodomy movement tried to cuttle up to the non-white population now it tries to liken itself to women voters ... nothing but cheap creep cads are the sodomites.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 9:45 AM By JLS
Grisha, you are misconstruing the "4%" margin, obviously fantasizing that it represents the full contest. No, the pro-marriage forces only drummed up sufficient funding to knock back the sodomite hordes. So what you saw was the full force of sodomite fundraising/media manipulation versus a small but sufficient effort by the normal population to defeat the twistos. Notice how the twistos always have to resort to the vilest deception, while the normals simply tell it like it is? So, Grisha, it is merely a contest between deception and truth ... and you expect deception to win? Guess that makes you complicit in the con game. What level of trust do you command among society at large?
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 10:17 AM By VirgoPotens
How can time possibly be on the side of the No on 8 crowd? Sodomites can't reproduce--they can only recruit.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 10:24 AM By Rick DeLano
Proponents of pseudo-marriage, I have some very bad news for you.
You have been crushed in California, and your trendline has reversed nationally.
I told you the morning after Prop 8 that you would never get an initiative on the ballot in 2010, because your inhouse polling would show you that you had no chance.
It has gotten even worse for you than I thought it would, and this is of course excellent news for humanity, which will see that a perversion and inversion of its most basic institution is *not* inevitable; in fact it is *not* going to happen in the United States.
Those of you who insist that time itself will take you to the top of your mountain of sexual perversion and biological insanity: sit back and relax. If iot is "inevitable" as you say, then why fuss? The rest of us will continue to win elections and court cases.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 10:36 AM By Pax Christi
Well said, David and Linda. Everyone thought the traditional marriage folks were going to get thumped in Maine. But, surprise! They won handily, 53 to 47 percent. I was a liberal thinker in my younger days, but no more. And I'm willing to bet most other folks get more conservative as they age. What happened to the liberalization of the Holy Mother Church? Looks like that died on the vine, did it not? Now she is experiencing a renaissance, and I'm betting it will spill over into the rest of society. Oh, in case anyone forgot to check the scoreboard, it is 31-0 in favor of the states whose voters kept marriage to between one man and one woman. The only wins chalked up by the gay marriage proponents were through the legislatures and courts imposing them on us; California and Maine voters smacked them down, and that should teach 'em a lesson. D.C. will be next.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 12:01 PM By Minerva
The day after the Maine election I called my catholic church and asked them to take me off their mailing list. I and three member of our family chose to leave the church.
THE CHURCH DOES NOT BELIEVE IN EQUALITY.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 12:03 PM By betty
well said, rather, written, Linda. I agree absolutely. I wish I had said it myself.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 1:05 PM By WOODY GUIDRY
HOW LONG DO WE WAIT ON THE MOUNTAINTOPS until some new Copernicus or new Galileo emerges to proclaim a scientific truth that SSA is really the SAME as OSA? The willing climate of politics leapt into the "SCIENTIFIC" fraud perpetuated by a board of physchiatrists frightened by the word "homophobic". Science is a DIFFERENT discipline from political expediency.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 1:28 PM By Tony de New York
U r wrong grisha!
By the year 2012 Cardianl Mahonny will be gone, (Por favor Dios escucha mi oracion) and i hope the new bishop will fight for life and family.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 1:52 PM By simone_dubois
And yet in the end, though many in this country and in the world might well accept a lie it will not make the lie any more true because by it's nature it remains a lie. I can call a tree a cat but it will not make it so. Calling something marriage will not make it so though many will be deluded. More's the pity. I believe it was Chesterton who once said, 'a fallacy is no less a fallacy just because it's become fashionable.' Just as in the brownshirt movement these things are being made fashionable. These days are remeniscent of the mood before the Colleseum was put to use. There is little tolerance for Christians these days, and as the POTUS rightly observed, "this is no longer a Christian nation." To follow the master will require picking up our cross and following, the servant is no better than the master and where the master is there too the servant will be. Thank you Dear God for the joy of the cross. Holy God, Mighty One, Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world. Lord you cannot come soon enough. Save us Lord, vanquish that enemy who is a liar and murderer from the beginning, we are sinking under the weight of our own iniquity. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done. Amen.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 2:07 PM By dan
"And long after it does, people will wonder what all the fuss was about. " The fuss, Chuck, is, among other things, about Natural Law, and why is should be respected.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 2:21 PM By Dan
THE CHURCH DOES NOT BELIEVE IN EQUALITY. Wow Minerva, did you think the Catholic Church gets her definition of marriage from the secular culture? She gets it from God, and has no prerogative to change it to please others. The Church does not see this as a matter of equality or inequality, but of God's created order. If your faith teaches you this isn't so, you left the Catholic church a long time ago, and just didn't notice.
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 2:39 PM By JLS
Minerva, how right you are. How long did it take you to realize that we are not equal to God, and that we are meant to do His will, and not compete with Him on this level?
|
Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 6:46 PM By Dana
I hope EVERYONE will please read Romans I....all of Romans I but especially verses 18-32. Christians were given commandments, not suggestions...homosexuality, murder, adultery et al, are never ever okay in God's book (the Bible). Read it occasionally to find out what God says, not what you think or feel. The harder our hearts become, the less understanding we have of holiness. Even the best and most holy among us cannot really conceive of God's holiness . It's imperative as Christians to read the Bible often. What would happen if we went to school and never read our text books? How can you vote intelligently if you never read a newspaper or article on various candidates etc? How can you become closer to God if you don't read His word? It is so alive and relevant. God bless you all ...it's a struggle I know, but seeking God's help is one way to make it easier to know truth and gain wisdom.
|
Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:14 AM By Bill
Linda,
I'm going to change just a few words in your post. Interesting. It could have been run in any newspaper in the 1950s, with a great deal of support from the "majority."
Voters are tired of [interracial marriage] being pimped as normalcy. Voters don't want their children taught that aberrant behavior should be sanctioned through "marriage!" Every [black] person I know has serious psychological problems, not to mention those who die of (sickle-cell anemia) in their 30s! Normalizing deviancy makes no sense and voters are tired of hearing that it does.
|
Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:03 PM By gravey
Grisha, You are probably right that gay marriage will pass sometime down the road in CA. You may get your wish but you also know it will never be accepted by the Catholic Church. So you are left as one who leads the vulnerable into sin and error while presenting yourself as Catholic. Perverted.
|
Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:37 PM By Anne T.
Good by, Minerva, and please do not slam the door on the way out.
|
Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:39 PM By 1abqdad
I'm amazed at how many sinners think that they can "normalize" to proclaim SIN as "acceptable"? No, it is NOT "inequality" or "discrimination" to call a SIN a SIN! It is a CLEAR indication that they'll lose when an EXTREMELY well-funded effort by ultra-liberal humanists is defeated while trying to get us to accept the sinful ACT of sodomy as "normal"! (They obviously flunked BOTH biology AND religion!) They were soundly defeated by a grass-roots, poorly-funded, and Godly opposition! For women to vote is NOT a sin! (AND, the church did NOT oppose it!) For a human to be involved in homosexual acts IS SINFUL! (Read your Bible!) Quit trying to equate civil rights with SIN! I'm sorry that some people have sinful desires, but that is the reality of life on earth! So, are we to accept ALL sinful desires as "normal"? Is pedophilia now "normal"? Why does Mark from PA complain about pedophile priests when the SAME type of mental abnormality that causes homosexual desires exists? (I realize that this is NOT "PC" thinking, but it IS truthful!) It is really sad that so many church leaders fear telling the truth about the abnormal status of homosexuality? ALL of the gays that I played with as a professional musician did NOT want to be gay and openly admitted that homosexuality was ABNORMAL in nature! BUT, it has been declared "normal" by the sinful, heretic humanists! It is PAST time for us to address the fact that homosexuality has mental illness at its source!
|
Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:26 PM By Abeca Christian
One of the reasons the homosexuals don't want to revisit same sex marriage crap, it is because they have other plans to continue to desensitize this state, they infiltrate slowly into people's life's, slowly enough that people won't catch it, then they will have more converts into their regime! That is how they work! Notice how families are starting to condone these lifestyles into their own family, they make excuses like, well if you can't beat them join them, they are people too and they have rights crap!
|
Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:49 PM By Mark from PA
Well Abeca Christian, "they are people too and they have rights." God bless.
|
Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:16 PM By Mark from PA
To fabqdad. I will continue to complain about the pedophile priest situation. These men were mentally disturbed but the bishops were not. The bishops covered up and enabled these men, thus allowing even more victims. I think the bishops were also guilty of sin here as they did not protect innocent children. It is an outrage and a lot of bishops
got away with it. Being a pedophile and being gay are two different things. Most pedophiles are men who abuse girls, a smaller number abuse boys and some abuse both boys and girls. The medical community recognizes pedophilia as a mental illness. Having a homosexual orientation is NOT considered a mental illness by the medical community. Here is an example, if a man in his 20's is living with his girlfriend who is also in her 20's and they are having relations, they may be considered to be committing a sin (as in living in sin) but they are not considered to be mentally ill. Now if this same man was having sex with an 8 year old child, he would be considered to be mentally ill. So one may say that it is sinful for an unmarried couple (either straight or gay) to be having relations but if they are consenting adults in a monogomous relationship you can't really label them as mentally ill. So in my opinion these consenting adults are not comparable to pedophiles who are sick disturbed people.
|
Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:39 PM By Grisha
Gravey - My "wish" is Civil Unions in those States which want them, recognized by the Federal Government.
|
Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:23 PM By Anne T.
Abeca Christian, what they do not realize or want to realize is that encouraging family members in mortal sin is called enabling. People do that with alcholics and drug addicts too.
|
Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 6:32 PM By Mark from PA
So Anne T, if a couple has a son or daughter who is in a committed and monogamous relationship, should they in any way acknowledge the partner? Also if the gay son or daughter has children, should they have anything to do with the children? Should they have anything to do with a biological child of their gay son or daughter? What about any adopted children? I don't think you can compare a family with a gay member or gay members to alcoholics and drug addicts. A person's sexual orientation is not comparable to alcohol or drug addiction.
|
Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 6:49 PM By gravey
Notice how Mark from PA continues his lie. The priestly sex abuse scandal was not about pedophilia, it was about pederasty. 80% of the cases involved homosexual priests sexually abusing post-pubescent boys (see John Jay Study). The "medical community," specifically the APA, is nothing but a political action group, hijacked years ago and cannot be trusted. The Catholic Church is clear that both conditions are disordered.
|
Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 8:50 PM By JLS
Grisha, have you put your wish for sodomic unions into your daily Rosary?
|
Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 10:57 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA
When are you going to obey the Magisterium? You have never answered this same question that I have posed to you many times!
You know darn well that the vast majority of the assaults by priests on children were really on pre-teen and teen males, and that is homosexuality.
Also the word is not 'may". At least that is the way in the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:06 AM By Aaron
Although you would never know it from reading comments on CA Catholic, according to a newly published research study by the Public Religion Organization, Catholics are more accepting of gays than members of other religions. 58% of Catholics believe gays should be accepted by society; 56% of Mainline Protestants, 26% of Evangelical Christians, 24% of Mormons, and 12% of Jehovah's Witness agree that gays should be accepted. Of course, this does not suggest that 58% of Catholics approve of gay marriage (even though Massachusetts has a very large Catholic population and also has gay marriage), but the research is pretty interesting. You can Google for the study. Personally, all I want is for gays to have equal rights in immigration, in IRS Federal tax codes. Gay marriage may eventually pass -I don't really care. I believe IRS codes should stop penalizing gays; IRS code should recognize gay partnerships/civil unions and give surviving gay "spouses" the same tax treatment as traditional married couples. As many of you already know, I live in Spain ONLY because US Immigration laws do not allow gay Americans to sponsor their foreign partners for legal immigration-a ridiculous law that was embedded in the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act. I repeat: I don't care about gay marriage-I want gay couples like Tomas and I to have equal rights-that is all. It would be a nice bonus if people like JLS would stop treating us as freaks; my comment to JLS is the same as always: Jesus words: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:57 AM By Abeca Christian
Mark from PA you forgot to add at the quotation that you quoted from me at the end "crap" Capisci! Anne T PA is asking the same question he has asked before, he is asking you now and I know that he knows what your reply will be because if he is smart he will know that you are a faithful child of the Lord and judging from prior posts of yours, he should already know what your answer will be. He is just hog washing, wasting time by asking those silly questions because he should already know what the answer will be coming from us all who seek God's ways.
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:21 PM By Grisha
JLS: What "wish for sodomic unions" do you think I have? For myself? Why my friend Julie says I'm the most hetro centric person she knows. Do you occasionally write these posts under the influence of some mind altering substance we ought to know about?
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:43 PM By Grisha
AARON: I know a good immigration attorney who has experience with your kind of case. Let me know if you want his coordinates.
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:17 PM By gravey
Aaron, I would say the percetage of CCD readers who are accepting of gays is much higher then 58%. The greatest act of charity is to admonish and based on your comments, you my friend need it on a daily basis. Gay marriage in Massachusetts was imposed by judicial fiat, not by popular vote. The IRS gives tax breaks to married couples because the institution promotes the greater good for society. You and your boyfriend are just a couple of debased dudes having sex, not even promoting your own good. High five for the US Immigration laws!.
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:37 PM By Mark from PA
Kenneth, from what I have read it appears that only a small number of the victims were pre-teens. It seems that most of these kids were the victims of a handful of priests that molested a large number of kids. A lot of these pedophiles molested both boys and girls. The tragic thing here is that if these guys had been dealt with at the beginning and not enabled by bishops and moved around, there would have been a lot fewer victims. From what you say, most of the teen victims were male. I don't disagree with this. However, you don't mention that most of the priests that break their vows actually do so with adult women. Since this is not a crime and most of this activity is consensual, this is usually dealt with quietly with the priest involved being transferred. As we all know, some have left to get married.
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:05 PM By JLS
Grisha, you just posted an invitation for a sodomite (Aaron) to immigrate to this nation so as to continue and enhance his sodomic relations (not unions, because sodomy cannot unite, but only join, and even then the juncture is feeble) ... you basically answered your own question to me.
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:07 PM By JLS
Aaron, how many times have I told you that the only thing keeping the wolves away from the sodomites is the Catholic Church, the seat of compassion (and conversion, hint hint).
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:16 PM By RR
Grisha: You are supporting, condoning, and helping two homosexual men (Aaron & Tomas) in their homosexual sins by helping them to continue in their homosexual lifestyle. That, Grisha, is a mortal sin.
|
Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:52 PM By The Truth Hurts
Grisha, You asked JLS at 2:21PM, "What wish for sodomic unions do you think I have?" Just twenty-two minutes later at 2:43PM you wished for the sodomic union of Aaron and Tomas, to receive help from an experienced attorney so they can commit their sodomic union acts in the US rather than Spain. Are you under the influence of some mind altering substance? Does that good immigration attorney also have the experience to help you and Aaron coordinate right from wrong? Now I apologize if you only want Aaron closer so you can counsel him that his soul is in imminent danger. That gesture would be truly heroic and I would commend you for your true charity. Our world sorely needs that kind of heroism of virtue to assist souls who are on the path to hell, but if you are only interested in false charity by validating mortal sin and by showing your consent and approval of their sinful life, then your soul is also in imminent danger.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:48 AM By Aaron
Grisha: Many many thanks. We spent literally $ thousands in attorney fees before giving up and making the move. It got so bad that US Immigration at Kennedy shook Tomas down for one hour on his last visit to the USA. We also wrote letters to Barbara Boxer pleading our case and asking her to sponsor us with a tag on a Congressional bill - all to no avail. We are now comfortable in Barcelona; unless Tomas gets a job transfer there, we will NEVER again live in the USA!!!! It just isn't worth the money OR the hassle. My forefathers came to Connecticut in 1657 to escape tyranny of the British government; 350 years later, I came to Spain to escape the tyranny of the US government! It is sad, but true that equal rights do not exist in America.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:09 AM By markf
Grisha, I would not hold your breath for Aaron's Spanish BF to try to come stateside. He's made it clear that he does not want to come to the US. He wants to live in Spain and Aaron wishes to play the role of the homosexual martyr by complaining about US policy. And Aaron, the truth is not made by polls and the number's that you point to are only proof of the deplorable state of the Church, post Vatican II. And let me finish the quote you are so fond of throwing in our faces..."GO AND SIN NO MORE." In fact it is YOU are throwing stones here, stones at the faithful, stones at the Church and her saints, and stones at Jesus himself.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:48 AM By Abeca Christian
Thank you RR for pointing out to Grisha that he just committed a mortal sin. Now a days people keep forgetting to point out that important fact!
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:53 PM By The Truth Hurts
JLS, How blatantly obvious is the silence from bloggers such as John Maguire? We all know that John Maguire possesses the intelligence to converse with Minerva and explain why it is wrong for Minerva and her family to choose human emotions over God's Laws. John Maguire's johnny on the spot history of defending Doug Kmiec is well known. John Maguire was a johnny on the spot in correcting the editor of CCD in their decision to help faithful Catholics learn about parishes that won't cause someone to leave the Catholic Church like Minerva. Minerva is leaving because she lacks the understanding and trust in God's Wisdom. Many Catholics have also sadly left the Church because of unbelievable goofy nonsense at certain Masses. John Maguire was a johnny on the spot helper to Mark from PA with his own brand of dithering quotes about "unconscious dread of genital activity". John Maguire was a johnny on the spot to defend the word "homophobic." His silence without love with filial correction screams out the same pattern of confusion that plagues the Church. The homosexual bloggers who deny and disregard Church Teaching have been confused by the same pattern of silence from their own shepherds who mislead their flock. You can be sure that if Grisha or Mark from PA's pastor told them to refrain from receiving Holy Communion until he taught them that they were in grave error by supporting serious sin, they would either repent and change or they would behave like Minerva and leave. John Maguire did not want CCD to help faithful Catholics know about parishes that are solid and good and without confusion. So, now what is John left with? Deafening silence, silence, silence, which we all know is one of the requirements in being complicit in another's sin. John Maguire has certainly taken the time to praise Mark from PA in his confusion but where is the filial love and praise for markf and his grace filled conversion? Has John Maguire exposed himself as a "unconscious repentaphobic?"
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:36 PM By Grisha
For those of you so interested in Aaron and Tomas' presumed sexual activity, let me say that sex is sex wether in Spain or the US. I really don't think a legal referral constitutes aiding an abetting sodomy. As Aaron points out, if one is going to be an expatriate, specifically a gay expatriate, it looks like Barcelona isn't the worst place to end up. The issue of partner immigration isn't so benign in other places and cases. Masha Gessen is a first rate journalist, former chief of USN&WR's Moscow Bureau. She's an American citizen of Russian immigrant parents. A few years back she wrote a couple of hard hitting pieces about the Putin Administration during a period when a lot of non-confirming journalists ended up dead. I ran into her ex-girlfriend who was quite concerned. When I suggested it was time to come home, she reminded me that Masha has a daughter who's of course an American Citizen but that her Russian partner had no right to US immigration. I do have to say that their are some here who have taken the Church's teaching on homosexual acts and twisted and magnified it beyond any semblance of faith or reason. This looking for - please excuse the pun - a sodomite or sodomite enabeler, under every bed and refusing to accept gays as fellow Siblings-in-Christ/Sinners is bad theology, boarders on arrogance and a transgression against the rule of Christian charity. If I ever get to Barcelona maybe Aaron a can counsel me on giving up the sinful parts of MY lifestyle.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:08 PM By Mark from PA
I can't believe that people accuse people that don't agree with them of mortal sin. They need to worry about their own planks. Everyone, Grisha is a heterosexual and is not promoting sodomy here. He is just promoting accepting gays as "fellow Siblings-in-Christ." JLS, you praise Mark F. He may talk the talk but I have walked the walk.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:22 PM By JLS
PA, it is the Church Herself who points out your state of mortal sin, and not the people who are giving voice to the Church. Again, you mistake the messenger for the message, and no doubt by either/both blindness due to the consequences of sin or intent to deceive.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:24 PM By JLS
PA, you've got it backwards: markf walks the walk of repentance, whereas you claim you have never changed because you are a perfect sinner who does not need to change. You, PA, fit the description of hypocrit perfectly, a shining example of what the word means.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:26 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
Apparently you think you know better about the spiritual life than Pope SAINT Felix III who said: "Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and to neglect to confront evil men when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them."
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:03 PM By markf
Grisha, I'm more or less with you on this one, as usual. While I don't think it's right to attend a same sex ceremony, I can't see that it's a mortal sin. I don't think there is any pastoral guidance from the Church on US immigration policy, though there certianly is on the question of marriage. But Grisha, please also beaware that many gay people love to play the martyr. If that Russian woman's life or rights are in jeopardy, she can apply for entry to the US on a human rights violation. I know that you're trying to be compassionate, but in the process you can also be taken in. As an individual, that Russian woman probably needs protection. But society as a whole deserves protection too from something that is much more dangerous than you wish to admit.
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 8:27 PM By Abeca Christian
Mortal sin is mortal sin, stating a fact is not an accusation!!!!!! Capisci!
|
Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:02 PM By Anne T.
For those who wonder if it is all right for Catholics to go to sham marriages between two people of the same sex or co-habit, whether heterosexually or homosexually, I suggest you put in "Bishops ok Marriage Pastoral with many changes, some opposition" in your search engine. The article is on the Catholic News Service. Of course, there are those who will twist this pastoral as they do the Scriptures and the catechism to their own detriment and others. "They are the blind leading the blind. Both will fall into the ditch."
|
Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:25 AM By Grisha
TTH: You write "..parishes that won't cause someone to leave the Catholic Church like Minerva." First, I sounds like she was up-set not at any parish , but the Maine and US Bishops conferences. Second, you say "Minerva is leaving because she lacks the understanding and trust in God's Wisdom." How in the world can you discern from a forty word post this is the case. It would take an experienced pastor an hour or so to tease out her understanding of our Lord and why she wants to leave the Church. The Fundamentalist Protestants have too many "I'm self taught" ministers running around. For all the mistakes and failings of our priests and bishops, I thank God that's not our tradition.
|
Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:10 AM By Grisha
Mark F: It simply isn't that easy to immigrate, or even enter, the United States regardless of your sexual orientation. The immigration authorities can be and are terribly capricious and in asylum cases generally assume the applicant is lying. I've worked avocationally with Russia matters for 25 years and seen rejections of cases over and over. Even getting a B-2 tourist visa can be hard. In '98 I met a young physician who kept getting rejected to visit her cousins in America. I had a chance to speak to the INS Officer at the embassy about her case. It became clear to me that their concern was that they felt the because she was very attractive, educated and spoke perfect English once she got here, she'd likely meet and marry some young American doc and !vilola! Instant US Citizen. As for Masha, she's so sophisticated and connected (Google her book: "Ester and Ruzya: How My Grandmothers Survived Hitler’s War and Stalin’s Peace.") that if refugee or asylum status was the solution, she would have engineered it. The USCCB has taken, to my mind, beneficial positions on immigration matters. They have a Migration and Refugee committee headed by John Wester, a real good guy, who was formerly the Auxiliary here in SF now the Bishop of Salt Lake City. Another homophobic murder got reported yesterday, This one in Puerto Rico of a 19 Year old. I really think the hatred that is out there is doing exponentially more harm to society than homosexuals merely asking for social and legal acceptance on their individual merits.
|
Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:23 PM By Abeca Christian
I repeat myself "Mortal sin is mortal sin, stating a fact is not an accusation!!!!!! Capisci! "
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 5:56 AM By Aaron
Grisha: Many thanks again for your consistent contributions to CCD commentary. You always provide insights based on the realities of life; you are an example of good Catholic who remains thoughtful, logical and in touch with reality, despite the accusations of those who blindly follow church dogma without considering that it might be completely wrong (e.g., it only took a couple hundred years for the church to officially accept Galileo's findings).
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 8:26 AM By Aaron
Grisha: Many thanks again for your consistent contributions to CCD commentary. You always provide insights based on the realities of life; you are an example of good Catholic who remains thoughtful, logical and in touch with reality, despite the accusations of those who blindly follow church dogma without considering that it might be completely wrong (e.g., it only took a couple hundred years for the church to officially accept Galileo's findings).
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 9:11 AM By JLS
Aaron, now would you be the popette, popess, or pope in your little family? And, what is with your incredible ignorance regarding Church dogma? Gallileo had nothing to do with dogma; he was a scientist, not a dogmatician, doctrinarian, or theologian ... not even a philosopher or poet, let alone a politician ... just a simple scientist. And, btw, what are your qualifications to discuss science?
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 9:13 AM By JLS
reddog (I had a great old birddog mix with that name): Even if sodomy becomes ordained by the state government, it will only last for a little while ... as the sodomites will fade away by means of incapacity to continue their species (as aberrant as it is).
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 10:05 AM By RR
Aaron: Church dogma CANNOT be wrong. If it is Church Dogma, then it is without error and it is Divinely inspired by God and His Church. You, Aaron are the one that is completely wrong. NOT the Church dogma.
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 11:45 AM By The Truth Hurts
To Grisha: In response to Aaron's two posts above that give solid evidence of your being complicit in shamefully promoting grave sin: Read what Aaron's post really means "Translations From A Very Lost Soul." Grisha, Many thanks again for your consistent validations and approval of my mortally sinful life on the CCD commentaries.. You always provide justification for Tomas and I to continue committing mortal sin. You are a good example of perpetuating our false hope that one day all Catholics will be as gullible, illogical and in touch with the realities of lust that make it just too doggone difficult to stop enjoying sin. The reality is, we don't really care about offending God, despite the accusations of those who blindly follow God's Laws by obeying the Teachings of His outdated Catholic Church. After all Grisha, God will discover in a couple hundred years how completely wrong He was. Also Grisha, in my flurry of appreciation for your courage in proclaiming that you are wiser and more thoughtful in sanctioning our sin that offends God, I returned at 8:26AM to once again post my thankful and adoring adulation for you over Almighty God. Go to confession Grisha because you are wrong to encourage sin. Ask your Paulist Pastor and if he says that you and Aaron are correct then he is wrong If thats the case then, if you want to go to heaven find a new Pastor who does not just tickle your ears.
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 2:06 PM By RR
The Truth Hurts: If Grisha doesn't understand your post to him @11:45 A.M. today, then I really feel sorry for his soul. I hope he sees his errors. You said it all!
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 2:43 PM By Abeca Christian
The Truth Hurts wrote "if you want to go to heaven find a new Pastor who does not just tickle your ears. " I love it!! Great comment, at the end of that sentence lets add my "Capisci!" LOL
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 3:44 PM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, you don't know Aaron so you don't know if he is committing any mortal sins. For a sin to be mortal, the sin has to be seriously wrong, the person has to know that sin is seriously wrong and they must give full consent of will to doing something that they know is seriously wrong. So a person must have an intent to seriously offend God by their actions. Since you do not know Aaron and do not know of his actions you surely cannot judge that he is willfully committing any mortal sins. It is best for you to have Christian charity and assume that Aaron is in a state of grace.
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 4:05 PM By Grisha
TTH: 1) I go to confession 2) Are you honestly arguing that a referral to an attorney constitutes a sin? Suppose someone was accused of murder and you gave them the name of a good criminal defense attorney? Would you confess it to your priest? 3) How do you know that Aaron lives a "mortally sinful life?" I don't recall his "confessing" on the pages of CCD. Maybe I missed it. 4) Have you ever wondered whether this forum is obsessed with **other** people's sins?
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 6:42 PM By Mark from PA
Romans Chapter 2, Verses 1-3, "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgement upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. We know that the judgement of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God?"
|
Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 8:34 PM By The Truth Hurts
Grisha, You are keeping up the very sad display of arrogance toward the Teachings of the Catholic Church. You are also demonstrating how much you really do not care for the souls of others. Keep showing Aaron and Tomas that you place your own selfish desire for human respect over obeying your Creator. No one is obsessed with Aaron's sins but you sure are Grisha. You are the one who wants to desperately preserve Aaron's justification to keep sinning. No one else wants Aaron to keep sinning, and he *has admitted* sinning more than one time. . No one would ever bring it up. The homosexual bloggers do bring it up constantly because they are obssessed with their sins. Why would you choose to ignore Aaron's total antipathy toward the Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ? I thought you said that you were a Catholic? Yes, Grisha, you need to go to confession. You need very serious spiritual direction. Love *all sinners* Grisha, very much, but don't expect faithful Catholics to stand by and hand you the same uncaring whitewash that you seem content to hand to Aaron,who was also made in the image and likeness of God and deserves the full truth. Learn your faith Grisha so you can really make a spiritual difference in someone's life instead of validating their hatred for God's Church.
|
Posted Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:40 AM By Abeca Christian
Some people here are manipulative and think they can fool us all. Sick I tell you, always twisting what is apparent to us all and twisting the truth and wasting our time!
|
Posted Monday, November 23, 2009 5:13 AM By RR
Mark from PA: Nobody here is judging anyone's soul. Only God can do that. We are judging their actions. What we are doing is practicing The Spiritual Works of Mercy which the Church says to do and it is our responsibility as Catholics to do the Corporal and Spiritual works of mercy . We are told to admonish the sinner and instruct the ignorant. We are practicing these works of mercy by letting people like Tomas and Aaron know what they are doing is sinful so that they have time to repent before they face God for judgement some day. Also, anyone who condones or supports someone in their sin will be accused of the same sin by God on their judgement day. Anyone who has supported anyone else in their sins will answer for it. I surely wouldn't want to be judged for supporting and condoning the acts of two ACTIVE homosexuals. And, yes, Tomas and Aaron are ACTIVE because Aaron has said they were on a couple of his posts. He even said how often. I shudder to think about it. It makes me sick.
|
Posted Monday, November 23, 2009 11:44 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
Please for the sake of your own soul, read and meditate on the last part of your last entry: "Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God?"
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
|
Posted Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:32 AM By Aaron
Seems we are waaaay off topic! The subject is gay marriage. I will repeat my earlier comment: I am not particularly interested in gay marriage. My singular interest is in equal civil rights for EVERYONE in the USA - just as EVERYONE has equal civil rights in Spain and many other countries. "Liberty and justice" for ALL is part of the pledge of allegiance. It DOES NOT EXIST in the USA.
|
© California Catholic Daily 2009. All Rights Reserved.
|