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Published: May 18, 2008
The final thrust of the knife
Why I am not disappointed by the Supreme Court’s legalization of homosexual “marriage”
Notes from a Cultural Madhouse
By Christopher Zehnder
Reactions to last week’s decision by the California Supreme Court legalizing same-sex “marriage” were predictable. While homosexualists applauded the court for advancing civil rights up one notch toward the realization of their Jacobin Nirvana, defenders of “traditional marriage” (that is, marriage) called the court’s decision a “disappointment,” “outrageous,” and an interference with the “will of the people.”
An outrage the court’s decision certainly was; an outrage against the dignity of marriage, to be sure, not to mention the rights of God. On a less lofty level, it was an outrage against common sense (constitutional broad constructionism run wild) and democratic decency, if there is such a thing. But was the decision a “disappointment,” as one commentator so schoolmarmishly put it? I hardly think so. Disappointment arises from a frustration of expectation, and who really expected the Supreme Court to rule any other way than it did?
I admit I thought there was some possibility the court would uphold Proposition 22, the 2000 ballot initiative the defined marriage as a union (at least at any one time) between one man and one woman. The 4-3 vote was, indeed, close. But the result was hardly unexpected. Surprise would have been in order if the court had ruled the other way; but disappointment in the actual result? Hardly warranted.
I was not disappointed in the court’s ruling; and though I agree that it was an outrage, I have a hard time working up feelings of outrage at it. I suppose I am all outraged out. Defenders of the family point out that state recognition of same-sex unions as marriage strikes at the dignity of true marriage and undermines the family. I agree, and I fairly believe the Supreme Court’s decision may be the deathblow to marriage as an institution in California. But it has been a long time since that institution has been anything like robust. The Supreme Court’s decision was just a sucker punch that toppled a staggering opponent.
Marriage has not been robust in California and in all of Western society because we have lost sight of the purpose of marriage. Marriage, once seen as an institution that primarily exists for the sake of propagating the race and providing a stable means of rearing progeny, has over the last century come to be thought of as primarily a means by which two individuals foster love and achieve emotional satisfaction. Traditionally, the purpose of marriage, rooted in nature, existing regardless of individual proclivities or desires, was seen as the objective criterion governing how society is to regard marriage. Today, the purposes of marriage are as subjective and varied as personal tastes and individual orientation will allow.
A society that sees marriage as merely some sort of satisfying, romantic union between two people is a society that will not long withstand the push to recognize unions between two men and two women as marriage. It’s hard to see how, in the end, the same society will limit marriage to a union between only two people. After all, some folks do seem to find polygamy and polyandry deeply satisfying -- not to mention spicy and, even, romantic, in an Omar Khayyam sort of way. And some men have claimed that they have so much love that one woman could not possibly absorb it all. Who are we to demand of them an unnatural restraint? Who are we to reduce them to second-class citizens, denied the recognition and guarantees marriage affords?
I do not say that state-sanctioned group marriages are inevitable or imminent. I am no prophet. I merely mean to point out that there is nothing in the way our society views marriage that would necessarily preclude polygamy or polyandry. Because our society defines marriage as it does (if such murk can be called a definition), it may very willingly embrace all sorts of peculiar unions as marriage.
If we want real marriage protected in law, I don’t think we can repose much confidence in that solemn abstraction, the “will of the people.” It is “the people” finally – not legislators, not activist elitist judges – who have betrayed marriage. It is “the people” that have become drunk on the cinematic sauce, the lie that marriage is about romantic satisfaction. It is “the people” that contracept and deny the fruit of marriage. It is “the people” who have made divorce as much a societal institution as marriage. It is “the people,” finally – seduced, prodded, and squeezed by politicians, the media, and a materialistic culture – who have all but killed marriage. Our Supreme Court justices last Thursday only gave it the final thrust of the knife.
It may well be that, in November, Californians will vote to protect marriage through a ballot initiative. There is still a good deal of vestigial sense out there that marriage is something having to do with a man and a woman, and this might carry the day. And the “yuck factor” in regard to homosexuality is not utterly gone; it might still be strong enough to motivate citizens to protect marriage with their vote. But the sense of homosexuality’s yuckiness is fading. After all, contraception is like homosexual genital activity, for it removes the purpose of sexual intercourse; and, if reports be true, heterosexual couples are engaging more and more in sodomy and other unnatural modes of intercourse. So, how in the end can they object to homosexuals doing the same thing? And if the homosexuals love one another – well, isn’t that all that’s important?
The members of California Supreme Court who voted to legalize same-sex marriage might be more “progressive” than the average Californian. But, if the likes of these justices, or San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, or Assemblyman Mark Leno, or Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger are marching in the vanguard of change, “the people” are not trudging far behind. If anything is an expression of what will, at least, (barring a miracle of grace) become the “will of the people,” it is last Thursday’s Supreme Court decision.
Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:56 AM By Giles
Pop philosopher Kinky Friedman is in favor of gay marriage because he feels that they have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us married heterosexuals..............
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 5:31 AM By Johnny
Our commander in chief is there "to protect our way of life", as he puts it. Now, what's next? Bomb the gays?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 7:20 AM By tom amadeo
CZ---Is it not obvious that the California Supreme Court has assumed the right to force the Constitution to mean whatever the judges want it to mean?Was not this,in principle,what the U.S.Supreme Court did on the issue of abortion?The big lie is that we are a "nation of laws",while in reality we are a lawless pseudo-republic,ruled by powerful individuals called judges.I can call us a lawless pseudo-republic because when those who are assigned to protect and enforce the law,break the law,then there is no law! Why have any Constitution at all? The courts have determined that it is not only their prerogative to intrepret the law,but to change the definitions of the very terms of the written law they have sworn to uphold! This is not the rule of law---it is the tyranny of men. The courts have marginalized the rights of the population to define the meaning of the terms of its laws. And soon that population will do with the Constitution,exactly that which the courts do now: they will use the Constitution as toilet tissue.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 7:26 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
I REPEAT: It is not the courts' job to uphold the will of the majority of the people, since the "will of the peoplee," however well-intentioned, is not always constitutional. The job of the courts is to uphold the Constitution, regardless of whether the necessary decisions fall in line with the will of the majority. It is up to the judges to determine, without bias from the rest of the population, what constitutes equality under the law, or equal protection. It seems more than obvious to me that to exclude Gay couples from the institution of marriage is a clear violation of any notion of "equality," and I have yet to see anyone dispute that on a rational level. Therefore, it is not "activism" on the part of judges to declare that Gay and Straight couples should be treated equally under the law, rather it is an example of judges performing their rightful duty.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 7:28 AM By Bob M
But ... why limit it to "between two people"? After all, I really like my dog a lot, and I know others who feel that way about their cat, or their turtle, or their goldfish, or ... you name it. My stomach hurts!
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:17 AM By Vincent
My goodness gracious me! What a dreadful diatribe. "And if the homosexuals love one another – well, isn’t that all that’s important?" I think that Yahweh would answer in the affirmative! Yahweh is love. The Holy Trinity is a communion of persons in perfect harmony and love. To be in a state of grace is to be in loving communion with the Holy Trinity and with one another. The force that mediates communion is a four-letter word: LOVE. The primary purpose of life is not to propagate. No, the primary purpose of life is to love. Too often, idealized little nuclear families have propagated, but there has been no authentic love. Children have grown up with distant fathers who haven't even been able to hug them, let alone admit that they love them. That Western Civilization has become more love-focussed is a dramatic shift in favour of the common good. That the love between gays is being honoured in civil life is an astonishing victory for love, for God's inclusivity and all-encompassing embrace. As the Prophet Micah says: "This and only this is what the Lord God asks of you: to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God" (6:8). Justice demands that we acknowledge love wherever it exists, and foster it and allow it to mature and blossom. For too long now, the love between gay men or lesbian women has been denigrated. Finally civil society is beginning to admit that this has been a terrible crime of injustice against love, against God's grace. God's grace continues to unfold before our very eyes. Thanks be to God! Alleluia, alleluia!
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:19 AM By Mr.Ed
This is a great victory for me and my horse ,Mr Ed,whose name I took when we were married last year by Archbishop Weekland. We have been living in the Netherlands but those terrible people in the Dutch Parlament just outlawed sex with animals which was legal until earlier this year.We could'nt wait for the Dutch high court to overturn the law,so me and my love (Mr Ed) are living secretly on a farm just outside of Pasadena.All zoophiles should be excited and hopeful.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:57 AM By Jessica
Mankind trying to undo what was created by God will fall soon enough from its very own weight which simply will never be able to support or sustain itself in any way shape or form. Without the signature creation of God this attempt to rearrange and change is doomed before it even begins. But of course all that being said it didn't stop the ancients in the Old Testament from building the Tower of Babel did it? Tower of Babel here we go again Twenty First Century style.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:21 AM By Harry
I agree, the justices fairly closely reflect the view of the people in our state regarding marriage. Still one would expect the justices to be able to make the all-important distinction between the essential elements in our understanding of marriage and the non-essential and sometimes evil elements that can creep in. Their main argument was that confining marriage to heterosexual relationships is the same as banning interracial marriage.
Heterosexuality has always been considered an essential element in marriage, in all civilized societies. Banning marriages between people of different races or religions etc. has never been part of the essence of marriage. Abuses like that have crept in here and there at various times and places. There has been a law on the books in England for centuries stipulating that British royalty may not marry a Roman Catholic. And there was the ban on inter-racial marriage referred to by the justices.
The stipulation that marriage be a heterosexual relationship is not in the same category. It is built into our western civilization's basic concept of marriage. Any justice worth his/her salt should be able to see that.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:44 AM By garvan
Makes one wonder whether the four "justices" have homosexual family members.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:41 AM By Blackie
Please don't slip up by saying "same-sex." That is a homosexual propaganda term, a euphemism that softens and masks the ugly reality. Please say "homosexual." Used in context, that word covers lesbians as well as male homosexuals, of course. Why should we do the homosexual lobby's dirty work by repeating and thus legitimizing and spreading their propaganda terms?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:18 AM By Rana
Frog legs, anyone?
Back in the 50's and 60's the only legal roommates would be of the same sex. I was in my 20's before I even knew what the words "gay" and homosexual even meant. An unmarried couple could not legally rent an apartment. Women who had sex before marriage were called "sluts". Then, the frog jumped into the luke-warm water.....
We've come a long way, baby!
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:27 AM By simone dubois
Vincent, since authentic love is to will the best and highest good of the beloved I am astounded how you consistently fail to grasp what love is. The best and highest good is union with God forever. Let me qualify since I am confused as to the god you worship, I refer to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The common good is served when we obey in love that one God. Your rhetoric is tired and worn out, I am sorry for you.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:29 AM By Christopher Zehnder
Vincent,
So, in your mind, to love someone, you have to have sex with him?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:35 AM By Maria C
If we allow this to continue what's to stop more new or old evil idea's of marraige. What is to stop Polygamy and marraiges with children too?? This is discusting! Marriage is between a man and a women, period! No butts or if! May our Abba Father have mercy on us. We need to fight the good fight and not allow homosexuals to keep corrupting family values and what is moral and just in God's eye. For the sake of furture generations, we need to stop this. Our Children are counting on us whether they know it now or not. Let's keep this in our daily prayers and speak up against such agenda's.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:42 AM By Vincent
Those who equate the love between two men or two women with the love between a man and a goldfish are being mischievous in the extreme. Two men, two sapiential beings, created in the image and likeness of God, can love each other with true eros, philo and agape. An animal is not a sapiential being ... it does not have a soul, it ceases to exist when it dies, it does not go to heaven (according to Catholic dogma). So there can be no union of two souls in this "relationship" - to compare any of the vile sins of rape, incest, murder, paedophilia, etc (as often is done in these commentaries) with the loving unions between gay couples is simply pathetic in the extreme. [Where true love is, God is dwelling there. Where someone is being abused by another - well, love isn't dwelling there.] In such arguments, there isn't a comparison ab initio. The first principles of such a rant are flawed. So cut it out, and try something a little more cogent next time.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:45 AM By BJ
Once again, the "so-called conservatives" have sold us out. The right wing keeps telling us serfs to vote for them and they will appoint conservative "orginalist" justices to our courts. Well so much for that..... Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord is the only answer!
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:50 AM By Vincent
Blackie says "Please don't slip up by saying "same-sex." That is a homosexual propaganda term, a euphemism that softens and masks the ugly reality." Actually, it is the Catholic Courage types who try to live out their lives as celibate homosexuals who refer to themselves as same-sex attracted. They simply refuse to use the word "gay" - since that might mean identifying with well-integrated homosexuals. I prefer to be called a gay Catholic. Though some prefer to call me a homo, a queer, a poof, a faerie, a fag - these are among the less graphic and insensitive words used. It all amounts to hate speech, in my opinion, and is homophobic. The Catechism demands "They (gays) must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (CCC 2358). Try it sometime - it just might help to spread a little love in the world.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:55 AM By Vincent
Zehnder says "Vincent, So, in your mind, to love someone, you have to have sex with him?" No Christopher, most decidedly not. I have loved many people very deeply in my life, but I have never had sex. But why would you even think that? What have I said to even remotely suggest that?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 12:13 PM By Concerned Catholic.
How does keeping marriage between a man and a women defend the sanctity of marriage? When Brittany Spears can get drunk in Vegas and marry a friend for a day as a joke but a gay couple that has been monogamous for 30 years cant get married where is the sanctity in that? Also those who hide behind the bible and faith as an excuse should read the gospel again. Jesus spent his time on earth among the prostitutes and the outcasts of the time saying God's love was universal. God's love is not only for the people who consider themselves righteous, God's love is for the outcasts in our modern society as well.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 12:54 PM By Grisha
Mr. Ed: Farms in Pasadena? Moooooo! Once again, I think Farmer john ought to check yopur feedbag for Locoweed.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 1:19 PM By Soledad
Vincent, The kind of "love" you describe means walking hand and hand straight into the Inferno, forever. If you love another man, the best thing you can do for him is to encourage him to live a chaste life of self-sacrifice. Courage is there to help. (www.couragerc.net) Christopher, You make a very good point about heterosexual couples engaging in sodomy. It is troubling that certain elements in the Church are teaching that sodomitic acts are okay as foreplay. As you point out, partaking in the same act that male homosexuals engage in would seem to make them more inclined to accept homosexual conduct. People seem to be missing this.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 1:20 PM By Art of Redding
Thanks Chris for getting me all riled up. After reading your intro, I was prepared to verbally punch you out. But after reading the complete article I must admit that you make perfect sense. Good job.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 1:46 PM By Anne
Christopher Zehnder, you have said it all, and you are right. Now the estrogen in the Pill is affecting the fish when filtered sewage is put into the watersources. They don't even know how to filter the estrogen out. The male fish are deformed in many areas.
By the way, Vincent, the love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not Eros (sexual love), but Agape (chaste love, paternal love, fraternal love, Christian love). It is horrifying that some people are so ignorant or perverted that they do not know the difference.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 1:59 PM By Soledad
Vincent, You cite, "Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (CCC 2358) I wonder if you reflected on the adjective/ qualifier to discrimination, i.e. "unjust". This implies that there can be just discrimination. Don't you think that one form of just discrimination might be to reserve the institution of marriage to man and woman?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:00 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Vincent,
What you wrote was in the context of homosexual marriage, and marriage necessarily includes sex. The simple point is, of course, that two men can love one another without having sex and without getting married. For there are different kinds of love.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:11 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Concerned Catholic,
Keeping marriage as a union between a man and a woman defends the sanctity of marriage because marriage is a union between a man and a woman. To define it otherwise is to strike at its integrity and, therefore, its sanctity. As they say, two wrongs don't make a right; so Miss Spears' marital larks don't justify two men's or two women's marital pretense. Christ spent his time amongst sinners (He still walks with us), but does that mean the condoned their sins? By speaking to prostitutes, was He justifying prostitution as just another form of commerce? By eating with Zacchaeus, was Jesus condoning the tax collector's thefts? Didn't Jesus say to the woman taken in adultery, "go and sin no more"? Does God's love being universal mean that there are really no sins?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:14 PM By simone dubois
Vincent, animals do have souls what they lack is a spirit. The soul is the animating life force. Plants got 'em too. Learned about this from Fr. John Corapi and I believe he was citing St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologi though I am not sure about the source. You are always using derision and condescecion to put down those of us who write anything on this site but you only demonstrate that you know the art of deflection and are unable to answer a question so you sling the same arguments over and over. Give up you anger lest it be a terrible occassion for sin and be bathed in God's own wonderful light. True repentence is very healing and it is not yet too late for you. I know this firsthand. Hope you too learn this before it is too late. God bless.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:23 PM By Mr.Ed
Grisha,Have you not seen the movie,"Zoo"? It is a movie about my lifestyle.And If you think humans having sex with animals is a non entity,you are quite mistaken.This activity is not classified as crazy(loco),but as deviant.In its wisdom,the American Psychiatric Association changed the classification of homosexuality from deviant to "normal."Bestiality(zoophilia) faces the same promotion.The courts have userped the power to do the same thing.What you think of as "loco" today,may be the enforced reality of tomorrow. It is loco to deny that courts have that power.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:30 PM By Fr. M.P.
Christopher Z, so you are "outraged out?" I pray that your hope and fortitude is not slipping. The constant battles with the devil and his minions wear us all down, but the daily Rosary and minimally weekly trips for Eucharistic Adoration (besides the obligation of Sunday Mass) will re-invigorate our souls.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 2:54 PM By Grisha
Garvan: You "wonder whether the four "justices" have homosexual family members." They probably do. I do. You probably do too.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 3:58 PM By Louise
A clear violation of the Sixth Commandment but then who is this god to promote such nonsense. Ronald George also overturned the Court's first decision upholding Parental Notification a few years ago. I think he's a "catholic" ?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 5:06 PM By Rob Christofle
Mr.Zehnder is correct in stating that "marriage" is the problem in Western Culture. I think if traditional marriage had a better track record then I would agree that the courts would have had more mert to support Prop 22. However, only 25% of new traditional marriages succeed, including in marraiges are second and third time marriages, and divorce is at around 50%.
Therefore, I am glad that someone, like Zehnder, is taking an interspective approach to the issue
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 7:59 PM By ann
I will attempt to be delicate, but has it ever occurred to any of the promoters of "gay marriage", that marriage has always implied the consumation of the same by the conjugal act, more precisely, the insertion of a husband's penis into a wife's vagina culminating in the placement of semen there. Sorry, the parts don't fit and can't function. It will not surprise me Chris, if you don't want this on your web page, but it is, however indelicate, a profound truth recognized by the Church and spoken about in commentaries on marriage, annulment and Canon Law.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:30 PM By Diane
Vincent,
You are a gay Catholic..hopefully a chaste one, for you can't be Catholic on your own terms, that just makes you a protestant, no better than Luther. Just let me here you say that homosex is disordered and not to be engaged in...then I'll beleive you are Catholic.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:59 PM By HGP
The correct term is sodomite. In the 1800s the term homosexual was introduced to make sodomy more acceptable. In the 1980's the term gay was introduced to make sodomy more acceptable and to lead people to think that the people who practice sodomy were happy normal people. By using these terms they tried to hide the fact that sodomites are people with serious sociopathic personality disorders who are trying to normalize themselves in the eyes of society.
The lifestyle is a cause of early death, disease, cancer and mental disorder. The public health records of Denmark and Norway show that sodomite couples die up to 25 years earlier than heterosexual couples. HIV/AIDS takes up to $21 billion in our federal budget for support, education and research. Sodomites have a much higher rate of molesting children (NAMBLA) than the rest of society. Like narcotic addicts, they seek to entice others into their unsafe and deadly life style (schools, entertainment, etc). Sodomy should be a felony and any government that is permissive or enables sodomy should lose federal money because of the heavy toll in lives and money that the lifestyle exacts on our country.
Griswold v Connecticut started the disintegration of marriage by allowing artificial contraception which makes women sex objects and which allowed sex with no responsibilty for children. Roe V Wade allowed the murder of the unwanted child when contraception failed. No fault divorce allows a marriage to be dissolved easier than a business contract. Lawrence v Texas said sodomy was a right. Unless we speak out and stop electing politicians who appoint these judges and make these laws we will lose the right to free speech and religion through hate crimes laws next.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:11 PM By Anne
Vincent, the point of the beastiality comments (marriage with a cow, dog and fish) is this: the same set of laws in the Bible that forbids beastiality also forbids sodomy, adultery and fornication of any kind. Sure many have committed some of these sins at some time in their lives, but many have repented, done penance and changed their lives. Others go on to be promiscuous all their lives and suffer the consequences. As the Rev. Billy Graham (a very chaste Protestant minister who said in one of his book that the only woman he has had is his wife, and there is no evidence otherwise) said one time, "We do not break the Ten Commandments, we break ourselves on them.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:14 PM By Salvatore G.
It Is the Legislature Job to create laws, and the court to enforce them and or if not within the frame of our constitution; ANY LAWS THAT DO NOT MEET OUR CONSTITUTIONAL TEST, ARE TO BE SENT BACK TO THE LEGISLATURE FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION.
THE JUDGES JOB IS NOT TO CREATE NEW LAWS.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:04 PM By Richard
It should go without saying that all the Catholic bishops, parish priests and deacons ought to be organizing massive protest marches in every city of California. Those that aren't are bought and paid for by the world, the flesh and the devil. It's no secret the majority of Catholics are lukewarm and the Church is in big trouble for lack of 'espirit de corps'. Don't hold your breath waiting for any marches.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:25 PM By Jonathon
To use the example of Brittany Spears one day marriage in Vegas is a bigger joke than the one day marriage. Have you ever heard the term publicity stunt? Unfortunately the term publicity stunt and Vegas marriages are synonimous with one another.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:30 PM By Anne
I just want to clarify one thing I said in my last post. Although, I do admire the Rev. Billy Graham's faithfulness to his wife, I do not admire all of his positions on politics, abortion and perhaps artificial birthcontrol. I do not know if he is for or against it. According to some websites, he did counsel the Clintons. Of course as a Protestant, he does not have the teachings of the Church or the Seven Sacraments to rely upon.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:59 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Fr. MP,
My hope in God has not waned, nor, I hope, my fortitude. I suppose it is my sense of where the evil has begun that mutes my sense of outrage at the court's decision. We, the supposed moral majority, are the root of it all. As the years pass byI hear more and more of even orthodox Catholics who embrace the easy out of separation and divorce that our laws so kindly allow. This leads me to think that the courts are not our chief enemy, nor are those pushing for homosexual marriage; rather, it is we who speak with our lips the sanctity of marriage but live our lives without the conviction of our ideas. The courts, the homosexual rights movement, etc. are but effects of a capitulation on the part of those who call themselves moral. If there is to be change, it must begin with the household of God. I hope in this; but I have little natural grounds for this hope.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:14 PM By Anne
Fr. MP and Christopher Zehnder, I saw marriage after marriage destroyed after the birthcontrol pill came into existence. What was uncommon became common. The Pope who said this would happen was right.
Now I am going to sleep. God bless all of you who stand up for Christ. May I have the fortitude and wisdom to do so always.
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:31 PM By Maryanne Leonard
The article is insightful and intellectually honest, Christopher. While it is a heartbreaking tragedy to see marriage become so triviliazed by the courts, remaking society while making law from the bench, marriage has not been sufficiently respected by society or even Christians for quite a while. We have to pay higher attention to the importance of human relationships in general and successfull marriage in particular if society is to survive. We must also change the law that allows some power-hungry, technicality-loving lawyer to redesign society to his or her own legalistic interpretations, which amounts to a dictatorship by the way, at least as regards that law.
Vincent, if you love a man but are living up to your Catholic faith by avoiding homosexual contact, as you say you are, then you are to be commended. Your homosexual orientation is a matter of personal preference that disgusts most people, but you as a human being and a practicing Catholic deserve both respect and dignity, as well as understanding and acceptance.
Please understand that it is difficult for mainstream, heterosexual Catholics not to be repulsed by the mere thought of homosexuality, and it is a challenge not to shudder in your presence as we struggle to extend your basic human rights to you. Please help us to respect and honor your difficult position by explaining at the outset that you are not engaging in homosexual actvity but that you do love a person of your same gender. However, as you are in favor of homosexual marriage, are you not by implication expecting us to assume you are referring to a relationship that includes sexual connection? If so, this is reducing Holy Matrimony from its current status as a sacrament to a sanctioning of activity that is specifically forbidden by Catholicism. Are you further suggesting that we ask priests to perform Catholic ceremonies for homosexuals?
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Posted Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:36 PM By Pax Christi
You make some good points, CZ. If only folks would realize that the sanctity of marriage looks better and better the more the couples are serious about their faith in union with the Holy See while forsaking the contraceptive mentality in favor of natural family planning (I read that divorces among these types come to a paltry 1-2 percent or so), then maybe they wouldn't be so quick to toss out the baby with the bath water. Also a high five to Louise for pointing out the Sixth Commandment. Christ indeed did ask for us to keep his father's commandments as well as his.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 12:39 AM By Vincent
Simone, the point is that animals do not have free will, and do not have the faculty of reason, so to compare a marriage between two men or two women with marriage between a man and animal is mischievous in the extreme. It is you who are deflecting - it is you who should come down from your high horse.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 12:55 AM By Vincent
Diane, I am a devout Catholic. I attend Mass (at least) every week, am a lector, an RCIA instructor, an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist. I believe in the creeds, I believe in the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour. I believe in the seven sacraments of the Church. I most certainly am not a Catholic on my own terms. I am a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. I am known as a gay man to many parishioners and priests, and have been lovingly accepted, thanks be to God. I was not aware that belief in the official Magisterial line on homosexuality was a qualifier for being a Catholic. In the hierarchy of truths, would you put it up there with belief in the most Holy Trinity? The question is far from resolved, as any moral theologian will tell you. To see just how shaky the official Church is on this, try reading Bishop Geoffrey Robinson's critique in "Confronting power and sex in the Catholic Church: reclaiming the spirit of Jesus." It might just shake you rigid.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 1:05 AM By Vincent
Maryanne, it might come as a little bit of a shock to you, but yes, there are priests already performing marriage ceremonies for homosexual couples. And the rites are ancient, and Catholic. Read John Boswell's treatise "The marriage of likeness: same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe" for full details, as well as for the liturgical texts themselves ... the originals reside in the Vatican Library.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 1:10 AM By John L. Sillasen
Anne, the Rev Billy Graham enjoys two Sacraments, Baptism and Marriage.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 8:18 AM By Lassie
Mr. Ed, is there room on your farm for one more couple? Vincent, it is very hypocritical of you to use outdated religious beliefs to foster your own brand of bigotry against bestials when you are at the same time fighting against intolerant people who use such religious bigotry to justify denying homosexuals the right to enter into loving unions. Your post is indicative of the need for education as a means of combating such ignorance. Everyone has a right to sexual self determination. That is why I support mandatory, comprehensive, and progressive sexual education for private, public, and homeschooled children. The children of this nation need to receive such education before the claws of prejudice (racial, generational, and religious) sink in and rob these poor souls of their sexual freedom. Bestiality is about love. Love for those that we share our common evolutionary heritage with. Why should love be limited? Love should be offered to all. Love can never be wrong. In nature, animals are known to mate with other species. The Spadefoot toad is an example. In fact, some species, such as the orangutan, are known to make sexual advances on humans. They only want to share their love with other species. Bestiality was commonly practiced in many nations until the major religions came along and started killing and torturing people for the crime of loving others. Gee, after thousands of years of religious bigotry, some things have never changed....
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 9:40 AM By blackie
Hi, Lassie, Congrats on hitting the bull's-eye with your very well-done and hilarious satire.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 9:56 AM By Fr. M.P.
Christopher Z, "I hope in this; but I have little natural grounds for this hope." Well, yeah. Rather, we real Catholics have SUPER-natural grounds for the virtue hope. I don't think God will wait too much longer to clean up the place. Keep praying.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:03 AM By Fr. M.P.
Vincent, The Bible says that same-sex lifestyles bring down humans to the level of irrational animals. Jude 1:7-8,10 - "Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Similarly, these dreamers nevertheless also defile the flesh, scorn lordship, and revile glorious beings. ... But these people revile what they do not understand and are destroyed by what they know by nature like irrational animals." Not mischievous but Biblical.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:04 AM By Anne
Yes, Vincent, we know there are "priests" who are doing this, just as there are "ministers" and "rabbis" who are doing this. Lassie, if you really mean what you are saying, you are pure evil. God help you to change, but it sounds as if your conscience is totallly dead. I pray it is not. Remember what the Lord Jesus said about those who cause innocent children to sin seriously, "it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matt. 18: 6. That is an awful indictment against those who suggest what you have just suggested.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:05 AM By Rick DeLano
I will do whatever I can to overturn this judicial atrocity.
I want to thank Vincent for reminding me of the deadly, soul-killing evil that resides in our Church, in the form of defenders of evil and perversion, who are so profoundly crippled in conscience, that even a thoroughly Catholic formation has become, for them, merely a tool with which to casuistically advance a "psuedo-marraige"- a Luciferian counterfeit of Holy Matrimony.
I suppose it is just possible that enough folks here in California will feel repugnance for the open disdain with which these judicial usurpers have mocked them, so as to turn this into a classic case of Luciferian overreach.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:40 AM By Rick DeLano
I will do whatever I can to overturn this judicial atrocity.
I want to thank Vincent for reminding me of the deadly, soul-killing evil that resides in our Church, in the form of defenders of evil and perversion, who are so profoundly crippled in conscience, that even a thoroughly Catholic formation has become, for them, merely a tool with which to casuistically advance a "psuedo-marraige"- a Luciferian counterfeit of Holy Matrimony.
I suppose it is just possible that enough folks here in California will feel repugnance for the open disdain with which these judicial usurpers have mocked them, so as to turn this into a classic case of Luciferian overreach.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 10:54 AM By Lassie
Anne, how can love be pure evil? Where did you get such a ridiculous idea? Probably some kind of Church or Mosque...keep drinking the religious Kool Aid... Do you have anything to add to this discussion besides your particular form of religious prejudice? I doubt it. It is hateful words like yours that corrupt innocent children by fostering an environment of non-acceptance and homicidal intolerance. It is no wonder that bestials remain in the closet due to fear of harassment, workplace discrimination, social stigma, and hate crimes. Bestials have a higher rate of suicide than the rest of the population as a result of being demonized by bigoted religious leaders for thousands of years. You show no compassion for others. You obviously have no idea of what it is like to live with the social stigma of being a "sicko", "deviant", or "pervert" and constantly being told that you are evil because you believe in indiscriminate non violent love. I guess you would like to bring us all back to the times when the Catholic church burned bestials at the stake. I am glad that religion is dying out because it always punishes love.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 11:33 AM By Anne
Christopher, hang in there. Hang in there. I leave all the truly faithful with this prayer.
God grant me the Courage to change the things I can change. The Serenity to accept those I cannot change, and the Wisdom to know the difference. But God, grant me the courage not to give up on what I think is right, even though I think it is hopeless. Living one day at a time: enjoying one moment at a time. Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking, as Christ did, this sinful world, as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will. That I may be reasonally happy is this life, and supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen.
We are in the Last Battle. Aslan, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah has already won. It has been forever so.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 1:51 PM By Anne
Lassie, you just have to be using satire, but it is not funny. By the way, I never allow/or allowed any children with whom I worked to call each other names of any kind or hit one another. I know you will find that hard to believe.
I have a question for you? Was Jeffrey Dahmer guilty of a "hate" crime? He killed quite a few young boys in a horrible manner and even defiled their bodies after they were dead. Was that a hate crime? Or does "hate" crime just apply to heterosexual crime?
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 2:05 PM By Ann
Lassie, you write: "Anne, how can love be pure evil?" It is very easy to have that so IF what you call love is not love. Love wills the good for the other. It is never good to help the one you say you love to believe or act in such a way as to help them to become less than their human nature inclines them. Everyone's human nature inclines them toward an integration, a wholeness if you will, of their whole being, body and soul. One of the demands of integration is that they are comfortable with their own gender and the body that goes along with. Being comfortable with one;s own body means that you do not use its parts in ways not in conformance with right reason. Right reason and intelligent assessment of nature leads logical thinkers to know that sexual acts outside of a true marital act defined as vaginal intercourse in a true marriage not closed deliberately by the parties themselves to conception are indeed evil. If, in the name of love, one helps another or oneself to use their body in a manner not conducive to integration, it is not loving.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 3:46 PM By RR
Lassie & Mr. Ed: I can't tell if you two are for real or not. I keep rereading your posts to see if I'm missing something. Surely, you can't be serious. If you are, it's probably good that I don't know because if I found out you were serious, I would probably throw up my chili that I ate for dinner. The thought puts my stomach in knots.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 5:17 PM By Anne
RR, I suspect the person who calls himself Lassie is for real. There is a group called Man,Boy Love Association which is based in San Francisco and New York. The acronymn for it is Mambla. You can find information about it on the Wikipedia free encyclopedia online when you put "man, boy love association" into your search engine. I would suggest that you click only on the Wikipedia site that comes up. God only knows what decadence one might find on some of the other sites if the police have not found them and taken the site out. Now I will no longer post on this. I have no stomach for it as you said.
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Posted Monday, May 19, 2008 9:55 PM By John L. Sillasen
Lassie is for real. But is a liar, a deceiver ... "non-violent love": what an utter repudiation of God!!! Once when running with my dog, I stumbled across a scene, still fresh, of obvious beastiality ... although it was really difficult to comprehend it. The front half of a very recently healthy looking young black cat ... sliced perfectly behind the shoulders ... and a spent packet of condoms nearby: This was the scene; rigor mortis had not yet set in. In hindsight I should have called the county sheriff's deputies to check it out. That, according to Lassie, would be "non-violent love". No, Lassie is not a satirist, but a fiend and an advocate of fiends. That type of lust can never be requited; yet true love actually can be requited through faith in Jesus Christ.
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Posted Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:37 PM By The first observer
Nuts! I can't believe this stuff. What is this world coming to?!!! See what happens when the natural law foundation of our legal system is circumvented? Have I been replaced as the official nut job of this website? What's next? See related article: http://jesusbewith.us/?p=129
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 5:36 AM By Fr. M.P.
Lassie, what is your definition of love?
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Posted Wednesday, May 21, 2008 9:08 AM By Lassie
The post of John is very typical of bigoted religious rhetoric. He accuses me of advocating violence against animals when there is not the slightest hint of that in my post. This technique is well known by those of us progressives who deal with ignorant religious people on a daily basis. This is nothing more than an attempt at transference of guilt. You see, he is guilty of using extremist rhetoric to incline people towards committing violence against a minority group, but he can't live with the guilt, so he attempts to place it upon the groups that he chooses to demonize, such as those who offer women reproductive services, gays, lesbians, the transgendered, and bestials. I would also like to point out that it is well known to the bestial community that those who react most strongly against bestiality are closet bestials themselves. He probably realizes that he was born that way, that has a bestial gene, but there is nothing he can do about it; he can't help but be bestial. But his religion places a burden of guilt upon him that no person can bear, so he releases that guilt by converting it into rage and lashing out at others. It is people like him who promote the killing of people for being gay, lesbian, transgendered, or bestial. Religion needs to be eradicated so that the world will be free of such childish and ignorant violence.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:31 AM By Fr. M.P.
Lassie says "Religion needs to be eradicated so that the world" That is implicitly his/her's definition of love - I want to do whatever unnatural things I want and don't tell me otherwise, and there is no God but my opinion. Love of ego, worship of self. Lassie, did you ever consider that what little childish children do? When you grow up, you learn to be unselfish.
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Posted Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:43 AM By Peter
While I appreciate your parody of the "gay agenda", you undermine your attempt (and your intent) by grouping so called "bestials" along with gays, lesbians, and the transgendered. The gay agenda has not and will not entertain the notion that natural variations in HUMAN sexuality are disordered. By grouping "bestials" in with "us" you betray your belief that you feel gays, lesbians, and the transgendered are fundamentally disordered. As a parallel, you should have referenced, for example, people who like to dress up and act like animals but still want to have sex with people. Nice work, up until that point.
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 10:06 AM By Christopher Zehnder
Peter, I think the point of the parody was that those who think no natural variations in human sexuality are disordered would have to accept human desire for beasts as just another variation in human sexuality. I take it you do not think that the desire for sexual intercourse with beasts is a natural variation in human sexuality?
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 10:50 AM By Lassie
Ha, ha!! I can fool most of you, but I can't fool Mr. Zehnder. (He probably has access to server logs.) Anyone who was really serious about this would not be advocating illegal activity from a static ip address. Peter's stated reason for being aware of the parody does not track with me. He might have been trying to disassociate the homosexual agenda from its logical result. Blackie is probably the only one who really was aware of the parody. I could have kept this up for a long time if Mr. Zehnder did not say anything. All I had to do is go to Wikipedia to get some basic information on bestiality (they even list the arguments pro and con) and integrate that information with recycled pro-homosexual agenda talking points. I was able to throw that together with a very small investment in time. That such posts were deemed to be "for real" by many, speaks volumes about the kind of reputation that progressives have rightly earned. I was surprised that many intelligent posters did not pick up on subtle clues. I am disappointed in you guys. I would like to apologize to the people that I have crossed swords with for treating them the same way that they usually get treated when dealing with those who persistently oppose truth. Are you guys mad at me?
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 12:06 PM By Lassie
For his sake, I hope Peter brings a pretty large shovel.
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Posted Friday, May 23, 2008 2:09 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, even though you shovel it off as a parody, the fact remains that you said it ... that makes it real. The problem you are not facing up to is the reality of fantasy ... the fantasy may not be real in a limited way, but it puts voice to some aspect of its creator. You seem to be stuck in the fantasy that the only reality is legal based. And in this, you abandon the law of God, and adopt the law of man which is somewhat ambiguous. Thus your reality denies much of what really exists. I would not call that, then, reality, but fantasy. The parody is part of your mind, expressed in code. This parody may not express literally, but more dreamlike ... you might want to look into it. Although perhaps that would not be a good idea either. Fantasy can be deeper than you might wish to travel ... this is another good reason to hearken up to the mercy and love of God ... in this case so as to avoid losing yourself completely in some fantasy which you can no longer control. Why bother with subtle clues when it will come out anyway. The business of subtle clues consists of more than you presently imagine. I'm not mad at you ... but intrigued that you continue to explore Christianity. Hopefully you'll stop short of burning a Christian at the stake to see if they really forgive you while presenting a spectre of the peace of God for you to witness.
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Posted Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:38 AM By Peter
St. Sillasen - Now how can that be true. If I catered to fantasy I'd be Catholic.
As far as shovel size, Lassie, that will depend on how big a hole it will take to bury you completely . . .
And to all you smarties . . . bestiality cannot by definition be considered a natural variation on human sexuality because it does not involve two humans by mutual consent (although, some might consider it a sexual ORIENTATION). That was the point of my critique; indeed, no natural variations in human sexuality are disordered. And that IS where Lassie's little parody fell short. You accept its (he/she?) basic premise; I do not.
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