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Like eating shrimp

Loyola Marymount shows homosexual propaganda film to “stir up some important debate on campus”


“Multiple organizations” at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles came together to sponsor an event last Thursday, featuring a screening of the 2007 documentary film, For the Bible Tells Me So. The film, says the Feb. 21 Los Angeles Loyolan, the university’s student newspaper, “interviews various theologians and scholars who analyze scripture in the Bible and derive an interpretation of where the issue of homosexuality stands in this context.”

A review of the documentary in the Washington City Paper says it is a “multi-part rebuttal to Christians who insist that their abhorrence of gay people is sanctioned by the Bible.” The interviewed families are introduced “amid footage of anti-gay remarks,” says the review. (For instance, a move trailer shows clips of Fred Phelps’ “God Hates Fags” protests and scrawled obscenities about homosexuals.)

The Episcopal Church’s openly homosexual bishop, Gene Robinson, is featured in the film, as are Dick Gephardt and his lesbian daughter, Chrissy. In a CNN “Situation Room” interview, Chrissy said, “The movie is about how homosexuality is dealt with in the Bible and that there are all these myths that surround it.”

In a trailer for the film, Chrissy Gephardt notes that “growing up in the Catholic Church, it’s not that I heard it explicitly, but I definitely knew that was part of the Bible. In fact, there were two things that I remember that were an abomination: homosexuality and suicide.”

An example of the film’s exegesis is the Rev. Steven Kindle’s (of Clergy United for the Equality of Homosexuals) interpretation of the Leviticus verse that says, “if a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable… both of them have committed an abomination.” “If you read the Bible on a face value level, that reading disregards several very important things,” says Kindle. “The first one is just a few verses before that -- Moses teaches in Leviticus that it is an abomination to eat shrimp.”

In a Sundance film festival interview, director Daniel Karslake says he made the film to point out that “we are all God’s children in that we’re all here and made the way we’re made for the reason that we bring different gifts to the world, and we have to honor that.”

The Loyolan noted that, after the film's showing, attendees would be “encouraged to share their thoughts and ideas about the message of the film with an open forum led by students, faculty and members of the Jesuit community.”

The sponsor for the event was Dr. Jeffrey Schnell, a Student Psychological Services staff psychologist and founder of “The Circle” – which, in a Loyolan interview, he called a group for “LMU's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) students and their heterosexual allies.”

Schnell said he “wholeheartedly” agrees with the message of For the Bible Tells Me So. “Fear can do terrible things while love and knowledge can save lives,” he told the Loyolan. “Actually, the core message of this film is quite similar to one delivered by Christ 2000 years ago, ‘Love one another…’"

Schnell said he hoped the film “speaks to people who have struggled with reconciling their faith and their sexuality, and that it stirs up some important debate on campus."


READER COMMENTS

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:55 AM By Aaron
Congratulations to the CA Catholic for this film review. The review didn't mention that one of the parents in the film relates that she tossed her daughter out of the house because she was a lesbian. The daughter later committed suicide. I know it is difficult to have a son or daughter tell you he/she is gay, but understanding and acceptance is all we can do. Your child didn't choose to be gay - God made them that way.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 5:39 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
I watched "For the Bible Tells Me So" last weekend, and I would encourage ANYONE with Gay friends, family members, or co-workers to watch it also. Yes, this documentary has a point of view, but that doesn't make it propaganda. The focus is mostly on the parents of Gay people, parents who first reacted to their children's "coming out" with confusion, anger, and judgment ... but later moved toward acceptance and support. That the Bible has been used very selectively to prop up personal prejudice and injustice is indisputable. The more people who see "For the Bible Tells Me So," the better.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:00 AM By RobK
The whole shrimp thing is a stupid argument. We do not follow the dietary rules because those are explicitly eliminated (Peter's vision about eating unclean things, Christ talking about what comes out of the body not what you put into it, the entire question of whether non-Jewish Christians had to first become Jews). It isn't even true. The entire 18th Chapter is on the sanctity of sex, part of the section on holiness NOT chapter 11 part of the section on Purity. Nowhere did Christ relax the prohibition on sex outside of marriage in general, nor this particular form of sex act (nor in bestiality which is mentioned immediately after, nor having sex with your neighbor's wife which is right before). If only the Jesuits would listen to the pope, and teach the CATHOLIC faith, not Episcopaleanism, not post modern secularism, not dissident theology that confuses, but clear, sound, authentic Catholicism. Are there any Jesuits in Los Angeles left who understand that?!? God's people NEED that. Are you relevant to that need for the truth anymore? CAN you teach the faith?

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:08 AM By tom amadeo
Because it has something to do with perversion and the supporters of bizarre behavior,this article will usher far more postings than if deserves. This "important debate" has gone nowhere for centuries,and will go nowhere now or in the future. Nu-theology and Nu-law embrace modernism. This allows the Scriptures to mean whatever the reader wants them to mean,and the Constitution to mean whatever the judges want it to mean. Debate under these conditions is futile,meaningless,useless,and insulting. Meanings become merely a matter of taste and therefore not subject to meaningful debate.(Roman principle: Degustibus non disputandum est.) The useless babbling useing subjective scriptural arguments will doubtless follow this article.Now let the hot alr begin!

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:59 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Just a quick reminder to readers who may not understand what side to be on here. Christians do not abhor homosexuals. They, like God, abhor homosexuality. The "Christians" like Fred Phelps seem almost like double-agents in that their use of phrases like "God hates fags" riles up everyone, and is not Christian, and gives true Christians a bad name.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:41 AM By DaJuan Hayes
The Bible provides us with a moral and ethical framework within which we may better conduct our lives with decency and humility. And YES, the Bible does indeed condemn rape, promiscuity, betrayal of spousal trust, etc. But there is nothing in the Bible that can be construed to condemn monogamous Gay relationships, and "For the Bible Tells Me So" spells this out in irrefutable terms. Unfortunately the bigotry that people insist on clinging so wistfully to blinds them to that.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:44 AM By Observation
Calling those who advocate sodomy "gay" is to lie. Doing so to people who believe the lie is not compassionate. Acting to lead one into sin makes for one and maybe two guilty people. Acting to lead one out of sin makes for one, and with God's grace maybe no guilty persons. Come out of the closet of sin.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:11 AM By Jay
I can't be gay and now you tell me that I can't eat SHRIMP; WHATS LEFT?!!!!!!

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:13 AM By LongByNight
Typical RobK. Pick and choose.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:29 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
DEAR ROBK: Since you are fond of pointing out Biblical instructions about marriage, let's not forget these: 1) Marriage shall consist of a union between one man and as many women as he would like (Genesis 28). 2) Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives (II Samuel 5, II Chronicles 11). 3) A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed (Deuteronomy 22). 4) If a married man dies, his brother has to marry the widow (Deuteronomy 25).

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:49 AM By The other Mike
No matter how bizzare the plot and logic is, there will always be an endless supply of this kind of movie. The promoters know that although small, there is a segment of the population that will say anything, believe anything, and most importantly pay any price to justify their perversion, if only to themselves. Homosexualists ignore the gift of thousands of years of tried and true Jewish and Christian teaching, and rush out to buy the latest propaganda films and publications. The promoters are following the old truism, "a sucker is born every minute".

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:05 AM By Peter
To The other Mike: I regard the bible not as the infallible word of God, but rather as a historical collection of attitudes and beliefs, many of which are no longer valid, realistic, or worthy of serious consideration. Chuck Anziulewicz's post demonstrates that even the most devout of Catholics - or at least the underlying principles of the Magisterium - acknowledge this to some degree. If you believe otherwise, I'm afraid you are the sucker, sucka.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:06 AM By Michael Arata
Homosexual strategists Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill recommended precisely such “desensitization” in 1987 (“The Overhauling of Straight America,” Guide Magazine, Seattle, re-posted at www.article8.org/docs/gay_strategies/overhauling.htm). They advised homosexualists to “muddy the moral waters” when scheming to replicate secular "humanist" successes in normalizing divorce and abortion. Among other tactics, that meant “publicizing support for gays by more moderate churches,” undermining “the moral authority of homophobic churches by portraying them as antiquated backwaters,” and getting “tough with remaining opponents” by having them “vilified” as “ranting homophobes.” Paraphrasing an Army officer’s remarks about the military: the Episcopal Church USA used to consider homosexual activity impermissible. Then it became optional. Many are leaving now, before it becomes mandatory. As is the case in dealing with alcoholism (for which some claim a genetic predisposition), genuine love and compassion do not involve celebrating, encouraging, condoning or even "tolerating" demonstrably self-destructive behavior. And despite deliberate misrepresentation by various renegades regarding Church and Bible teaching on “chastity,” “conscience,” and homosexualism, the Catechism of the Catholic Church provides truth and just the right balance in dealing with same-sex attraction disorder, at nn. 1777, 1790-93, 2337, 2349, 2357-60, and 2396 (and in associated footnotes). Even the USCCB has begun slowly to get with the program. See “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care”: http://www.usccb.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf .

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:04 PM By Doorman
We don't even have to look at scripture to know that homosexuality is counter to God's will and abnormal. Since God created life, he made our bodies to operate per his divine will. The male body is not sexually compatible to another males body. It is a physiological fact that cannot be denied, unless you just want to claim your stupidity to biological and physiological facts! A males body is no more sexually compatible with another males body, than it is sexually compatible to a tree, a hole in the ground, or whatever other deviant use someone decides they want to use their sexual faculties for. God, being the Author of Life, created our sexuality to be pleasurable so that when used in it's right form (Male and female) and it's right place (marriage) it would strengthen through nature, what he sanctified with the Sacrament of Marriage. Of course, when someone "Feels" more pleasure from one thing, they will go to whatever lengths to justify it. It's a pathological act to justify something by what provides pleasure, vs what is based on sound reasoning and the natural order. Even serial killers try to justify their pathology of deriving pleasure from killing by saying their victims 'deserved death'. Homosexual promotors do nothing more than perpetuate a deviant sexual pathology. Nothing new under the sun.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:49 PM By Dan
If the intent of the movie was merely to stimulate compassion for GLBT people, I would say that is a good thing. Jesus would never say "I hate fags," and anyone who says this himself would be putting his soul in grave danger, IMO. If the intent is to orchestrate acceptance of the GLBT lifestyle, then those who hosted it are at war with the Church, well, the magesterium of the church. I remember making an overnight stay at a Trappist monastery about 15 years ago and there meeting a parish priest along with some of his parishoners. He made no bones about it that he was at war with JP II and he was leading his parishoners in the charge. I was shocked then and am still today by this broadside. Being a convert, I do not understand why those who disagree with Catholic teaching don't leave and become Episcopalians. When I dissented from reformation teaching on justification and eucharist, I crossed over to Rome.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:33 PM By John L. Sillasen
"The Bible Tells Me So" is not a Magisterial document, and thus has no divine authority.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:36 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, since you do not belief in absolute truth, then how do you know you exist? Is it that you believe you exist, or that you can prove it?

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:06 PM By HGP
It seems that some misguided people have confused the digestive tract with the genitourinary tract. they need to go back to biology 101.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:30 PM By Fr. J
Did God make pedophiles that way? So we can't condemn it? How about serial killers? Did God make them that way? We don't need any more homosexual propaganda. Homosexuals want to kick Christians out of schools, but I don't see any of them crying foul over that.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:33 PM By garvan
This story should demonstrate the folly of Catholic parents scrimping, saving and going into debt to send their impressionable offspring off to this formerly Catholic university. The people running this dissentiversity are laughing all the way to the bank. (They won't be laughing very hard on the day they stand before the Lord.) Message to those who think homosexuals are born that way: WRONG! There is not one scintilla of scientific evidence for this nonsense. If your child starts to show signs of buying into the homosexual lifestyle, get him or her off to psychiatric counseling immediately. Contact NARTH for a referral.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:35 PM By Respondent
If homosexuals are born homosexuals, then what happens when a researcher discovers a genetic link to same-sex orientation or perhaps some other pre-natal cause? I suspect that researchers will then look for ways to address this objective disorder. If homosexuality is due to nurture, then we can make changes to the environment (nurturing) to help a child develop the orientation that matches his or her gender. The point is that homosexuality is due to nature, nurture or a combination of the two. Some homosexual advocates now realize to argue that they were born that way will ultimately be the downfall of their cause. They are therefore promoting it as a personal choice. The Catholic Church rightly teaches that choosing to engage in homosexual acts is wrong and the acts are intrinsically evil. There are lots of choices in this world that are wrong and do not come from God. Since homosexual activity is a disorder from the perspectives of scripture, tradition, and natural law, Catholics should not in any way promote the homosexual agenda. Let's not allow the homosexual advocates to destroy the family as God created it by attempting to redefine marriage and by denying children a mother and father. If you take the time to reflect on the reality of procreation, having a mother and father is the right of every child. Catholic universities should sponsor research and conferences on same-sex attraction disorder and the pastoral care of homosexuals rather than giving homosexual activists a pass to promote falsehoods and half-truths on their campuses.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:46 PM By Ronnie
I believe Aaron and Chuck are a little confused on the Church's position on homosexuality. Homosexuals should be treated with love and respect. It is considered a "disorder inclination or orientation". If acted upon it is a "sin". Love the sinner hate the sin is what the Church teaches. And I would argue that suicide is very common among this group precisely because every man/women knows in their heart what is right and wrong and of course, the wages of sin are always death. Not because of any rejection but because of the sin..... If my son or daughter were gay I would love them unconditionally. However, I could never condone or accept an immoral lifestyle. As to whether God made them that way, I'm not so sure after reading about so many former gays... As for this film, it sounds like another attempt to normalize a disordered inclination and that it is in a Catholic school doesn't surprise me. Just look at the recent homosexual sex abuse scandal and how it was covered up by calling it a "pedohilia" scandal.......

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:21 PM By John L. Sillasen
Homosexuality is the consequence of sin St Paul, Romans). Homosexual acts are caused by choice, since they are also sins.

Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:21 PM By John Andersen
Respondent: Thank you for your comments. I hope you are helping to gather signatures for the "marriage ammendment" and that you will help gather signatures for the initiative to withdraw SB777. It is important that we push back against the "homosexual agenda" on all fronts.

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:25 AM By Peter
St. Sillasen, I never wrote that I did not belief in absolute truth. Where did you infer that from?

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:50 AM By The other Mike
Peter, thanks for confirming what I said in my post: Homosexualists reject the Bible, and favor cheap propaganda. Finally we agree on something!

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:17 AM By Fr. M.P.
The usual marketing of evil, which suckers so many because of their lust. (Note a similar process is used for heretosexuals and the lust of fornication). Anyone recall that AIDS was originally called GRID - gay-related immunodeficiency disease? Notice the source of the disease? But the homosexual marketing machine didn't want such a factual association, led by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, who worked to change things. They wrote "After the Ball: How America will conquer it's fear and hatred of gays in the 90's." These guys are into public perception shifting techniques and psycho-analyses. "The separability and manipulability of the verbal label is the basis for ... our campaign." Hence so-called "gay rights." They use "desensitization", "jamming," and "conversion", all for the purpose of "restructuring the consciousness." The video mentioned in the article is for those purposes. Desensitization is a flood of homosexual related stuff in the least offensive manner possible. Jamming "is psychological terrorism meant to silence expression or even support for dissenting opinion." Conversion is "through a planned psychological attack in the form of propaganda fed to the nation via the media" for "conversion of the average American's emotions, mind and will." "We mean subverting the mechanism of prejudice to our own ends ... whether they like it or not." "It makes no difference to us that the ads are lies." "Jam homohatred by linking it to Nazi horror" (Selling Homosexuality to America; Rondeau). We see all that here right on this news site discussions!

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:35 AM By Peter
And why reject the Bible, The other Mike? Because it too is cheap propaganda. And outdated at that! Check out this web-site for a little enlightenment! http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:50 AM By Grisha
Let me comment on something that's ben touched on in this and other threads. There doesn't seem to be a scientific paradigm as to what causes an individual to be attracted to their own or the opposite gender or somewhere in between. Anecdotally, I tend to believe its genetic , based on my family history. If, in the future, a prenatal test can tell if a child is going to be homosexual, will we see many of those children aborted so the parents can then try for a "normal" child? If so, maybe it's better if Catholic universities stayed out of that kind of research.

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:24 PM By Linda Maria
Does no one have any respect for our holy Church and her teachings? Especially a Jesuit university? Do they teach any religion classes there, for the students? Christ was born to teach us and to lead us back to God, after the Fall of Man. Christ suffered and died for our Salvation. He came to give us the opportunity to repent of sin and practice our Faith very diligently, so that we may hope for Eternal Life with God, in Heaven! As we are born in Original Sin and suffer its effects, and also have personal defects to overcome, we are far from God! And the pathway to Him, of the Cross --- is very hard!! Yet, with the help of God, we can make our way slowly, to Heaven! We must lead a very clean, chaste, prayerful, selfless, excellent life, accept our daily crosses humbly, seek to grow closer and closer to Christ in His teaching and Sacraments, and be lovingly obedient to Him, rejecting all else; rejecting the fallen realms of the "world, the flesh, and the devil." Holy Matrimony is a Sacrament of our Church, and we must learn and follow its teachings. Homosexual acts are evil and disordered; they are not natural, and God has condemned such acts, and all sex perversions. All sincere Catholics desiring to follow Christ must carefully and prayerfully study our Catholic religion and make the effort to sincerely follow Jesus Christ, in total faith and trust. The "Fallen World," with all its sin, selfishness, corruption, and empty promises, gives only pain, sickness, suffering, and death. But Christ gives to His sincere followers, Eternal Life in Heaven!! That, indeed, is the message of Easter!!

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:31 PM By Peter
Amen to that, Grisha. It's doens't seem we've ever clashed, per se, but I do find you very insightful.

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:40 PM By Peter
That's all fine, well and good Linda Maria. But consider this: "If the resurrection of Jesus cannot be believed except by assenting to the fantastic descriptions included in the Gospels, then Christianity is doomed. For that view of resurrection is not believable, and if that is all there is, then Christianity, which depends upon the truth and authenticity of Jesus' resurrection, also is not believable." – Bishop John Shelby Spong (Resurrection: Myth or Reality? A Bishop's Search for the Origins of Christianity, p 238).

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:52 PM By John Andersen
This comment leverages off of Grisha's latest post, but is a broader rebuttal to the "science paradigm" of explaining behavior. To lean to a "naturalist" (dare I say Darwinian) paradigm (whether you believe in evolution or not!) is to lean away from a Biblical view. The first question a Christian needs to ask is this: Does this behavior or action glorify God. Those who reject God and/or Biblical authority, still need to ask themselves is this a "behavior" that is good (healthy, natural, etc.) for the individual and for the broader community.

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 4:18 PM By John L. Sillasen
By Peter St. Sillasen, I never wrote that I did not belief in absolute truth. Where did you infer that from? +++++++++ Peter, probably from your posts, as I can't figure out where else I'd surmise it from. Btw, I notice you get frustrated whenever a rebuttal or reply to your posts gets a bit tough for you.

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 4:52 PM By Fr. M.P.
Talk about mythology, Peter!

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:35 PM By Betty
I believe that studies have been made of identical twins where one twin is homosexual and the other is not, Studies show that the two twins have identical genetic makeups. Diesn't that prove that homosexuality is not something that you're born with and can't do anything about?

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:35 PM By Dan
Peter -- your athiest website which you cite above blames christianity for most of the ills which have beset the world. Its strident condescending hyperbole is sensationalistic and propagandistic. It makes me think I am listiening to Hitler fulminating against the Church (which he most certainly did do). One can't dialogue with the writer because of this. He does cite authors, most of whom are themselves of like mind. For example Bishop Spong is cited as an expert in many areas of Christian faith, but this man did not believe in historic Christianity. It takes a very great leap of faith to swallow anything on that website, despite the pretensions of scholarship.

Posted Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:11 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, your claim of the Resurrection fails on all counts. There never was anyone who was able to provide evidence that it did not happen. The few who insisted it did were soon martyred ... and for what? All they had to do was renounce the Resurrection, and they'd be freed from Roman and Jewish persecution. Why didn't they recant? None of them recanted. Where is the body of Jesus? Where is the body of Blessed Mary Ever Virgin? Where have the skeptics all gone, and why don't their rebuttals ever last very long ... none of them have even made it into classical literature. Yet, consider the immeasureably vast body of literature supporting the claims of Resurrection. The proof, Peter, is the precious blood of the martyrs. Be sure to pound your brass drum while you read their many accounts. And have your camera ready, in case you might see such an event in your lifetime.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 6:38 AM By Peter
It's just that I find intereting the notion that the cornerstone, the very foundation of Christianity - that Christ rose from the dead - is based on a mere 500 egregiously contradictory words in the Bible. A mere 5 five paragraphs, in 5 different books, with 5 very different accounts of the same event. Where is the evidence that it did happen?

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 11:02 AM By William
Peter,what will you say when at the moment of death,you are called before God to give an account of all this heresy? He may very well say to you depart into the fire that was preparred for the devil and his angels.You are still alive.You still have a chance. Repent.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 11:43 AM By Peter
William, I look forward to meeting God. I'll say, "Nice joke, that homosexual thing. Good one." And God will say, "Yeah, I thought you'd get a kick out of it." Then he'll say, "Sorry about those Christians." And I'll say, "Yeah, and what was up with those Catholics? " And he'll say, "Boy, do they have me pegged wrong." And then we'll both have a good laugh and go have a latte together before I go to find my loved ones . . .

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 12:09 PM By William
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. God does not condone ANY sex outside of marriage,period! This includes,but is not limited to, homosexuality. Your better seek out a good traditional priest,while there is still time.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 12:09 PM By Respondent
If we could find the prenatal causes for blindness, deafness or any other objective disorder, wouldn't many people be better off for it. I would hope that further research would then lead to cures, therapies, etc. Eyes are meant to see and ears are meant to hear. Every homosexual man and woman in the world should be vigorously working to end abortion. Only God gives life and only God takes it away. Some thoughtless people have used abortion as a means of gender selection for years. A few years ago an English mother went to court to receive permission for an abortion because her child would be born with a cleft palate (a physical problem that doctors can repair). Does this mean that sonograms are evil? Of course not. Technology will never end our capacity for sin because sin comes from our pride. The so-called "gay liberation movement" is causing harm to all sons and daughters of God; it is misguided. In addition, if transsexual people now use surgical techniques to change their physiology, then why shouldn't men and women have the right to change their sexual orientation to match their physiology? In other words, I have no doubt that as our understanding of sexuality progresses, we will someday have the knowledge to reprogram for sexual orientation, whether or not homosexuality is genetically or environmentally caused. If people can—mistakenly—now make "hardware changes," who is to deny them (or their parents) the opportunity to debug the "software"? Even Jesus cured the blind, the deaf, and the lame. Was he an intolerant bigot who hated the disabled? Finally a serious problem at many Catholic universities is a Catholic clergy and faculty that is heavily influenced by the homosexual movement. Catholic schools of higher education should be investing more resources in research on the causes of homosexuality and finding better pastoral ways to support homosexual men and women. God most certainly loves his sons and daughters who have a homosexual orientation. They also have their cross to bear. Scripture, Church tradition, and natural law, however, teach us that homosexual activity is wrong and marriage between a man and woman who are open

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 12:46 PM By Peter
Let me ask you the same question, William. Since you, in your self-righteous wisdom, seem to think that my personal relationship with God is somehow tainted because it is not based on Catholic/Christian doctrine, what will you say when at the moment of death, you are called before God? What makes you think that your relationship with God is so much more "appropriate"?

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 1:22 PM By Respondent
to new life is right.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 3:16 PM By William
There is but one true faith,the Catholic Faith,and you either obey its precepts or you dont. Your choice.Any sex outside of marriage is sinful. This is God's law. You either obey or you dont. Simple. I dont claim wisdom;just a sinner trying to obey the laws of God,as taught by the one true church,the Catholic church.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 4:13 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, it is so simple if you don't attack it: The five accounts are by five different witnesses. The Resurrection is not the cornerstone of Christianity ... Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. See what I mean by your need to update your reading skills?

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 4:16 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, you're going to look for your loved ones following latte' with "god"? Have you been busy reading Dante's Inferno?

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 7:35 PM By Ted
Peter -- After you've finished your latte and had a chance to settle in, come on over to our place (assuming we get there before you do). Call ahead and we'll make dinner for you.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 8:50 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter and Ted, you folks are going to be bummed out when you find out there is no marriage in Heaven.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 9:35 PM By george
Peter: In the USA why do you drive on the right side of the road? Why do you stop at red lights? Why do soccer players only use their feet? Why do you file a tax return on or before April 15th? --- Hey, you’re right, you don’t have to do these things, you don’t have to believe that whoever made these rules has any authority over you. You can do absolutely anything you choose to do – as long as you are also willing to pay the consequences. God’s laws have been around for quite a while. You don’t have to believe in God to follow his rules – but the consequences are the same whether you believe or not. Frankly, I don’t care what you believe or what you do – with yourself. I do care though, when you attempt to influence my children, because, despite what Grisha “feels,” homosexuality is not genetic, but it is contagious. It is a learned and nurtured behavior. As such, it is not appropriate for you or anyone else to teach (tolerance, acceptance, normalization, how to, etc.) and nurture such behavior to our children. Such teaching will negatively impact their lives – yes, you can choose to drive on the wrong side of the road, but your actions may have a severe negative effect on the people in the car you hit head on. You don’t break the rules of the road in a vacuum – neither are God’s laws broken as such. So, do anything you want, but stand-bye my friend, because “it’s not nice to fool Mother Nature” I wouldn’t be pouring that latte just yet.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 11:33 PM By Ted
JLS - What?? No marriage in Heaven..??? Dang, that's no fun. I'm going to go to Muslim Heaven then. At least I'll have 72 virgins there.

Posted Friday, February 29, 2008 11:55 PM By Ted
But george, if you go to the UK, you don't drive on the right side of the road. You don't say "But I'm from the US, and there we drive on the right side. And that's how I'm going to drive here." The point is, you may say there are "rules". But when you look at it, your rules might not be absolute. They have been developed for a certain time and place, and in a certain language and culture, but there can be rules that are just as valid but contradictory. That is the point of the movie that is the subject of this thread. You might be restricted to using your feet in soccer, but that doesn't mean that's what you do in football or basketball.

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 11:40 AM By John L. Sillasen
Ted, out of charity, and I know this will not be fun to hear, those 72 virgins are not quite what you might hope for ... they are virgin cobras. What's worse, you can't tell if they're male, female, or intersexed. As for the more mundane thing such as rules for driving on one side of the road ... not a problem on a certain section of highway near here ... head on collisions regularly.

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 11:40 AM By Grisha
Ted ~ Sorry to disapoint you, but Irshad Manji, the Muslim reform writer says that the correct translation is 72 ~raisins~.

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 1:02 PM By William
Re: those 72 virgins,I heard it was A 72 year old virgin----1 72 year old virgin,NOT 72 virgin(s)

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 1:41 PM By John Andersen
By George: I hope you are helping to gather signatures for the marriage ammendment here in CA, and that you will help gather signatures to repeal SB777 in about a month.

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 3:22 PM By george
Ted: Interesting that you want to take your earthly lust to heaven - those 72 virgins - the real deal is that they are going to stay virgins for eternity. Enjoy you lust.

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 6:22 PM By William
John Anderson,do you think we in Ca can get this repealed(SB777) ?

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 6:48 PM By george
William: It's a must! And we need to impeach the girlie gov Gray Schwarzenegger in the process.

Posted Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:47 PM By William
Whats the plan? I dont think you can impeach Ahnold,after all,this is a democrat state,and Ahnold is at heart a democrat. Notice how they snuck that 777 right in,without any fanfare? sneaky *******s. Also the 2 supporting measures.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:12 AM By Grisha
OPINION POLL: in my February 27, 2008 9:03 AM post in the Feb. 19 "Tolerance can't be tolerated.." thread, I wrote about my friends Mary and Claudia who are raising two children in SF,. Last week, Mary mused that though they're Presbyterians, as the kids get into high school or even middle school years, the may want to send them to Catholic schools. Question: Should a Catholic school reject them because they have "two moms?"

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:00 PM By Ted
Well this is a surprise. I had heard interpretations and translations of various Koran verses. And now some of you are telling me that what I heard, well, may not be what was originally intended. Oh, OK. Hmmm.... I wonder.... by the same token... these Bible verse interpretations and translations that keep getting thrown around.... maybe those weren't the original intent. (And before you just re-quote these verses once again, please see the movie that is the subject of this thread.) After all, the Bible was used to prove the Earth is the center of the universe.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:09 PM By John L. Sillasen
Further question, Grisha: If accepted, then what to tell the kids ... the q&a will come up naturally among all the kids there. The school will have no option but to address it publically. My recommendation is for the school to bring in a consulting saint to manage the situation.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 2:21 PM By John L. Sillasen
Ted, do you mean to say that you don't see the Earth as the center of the universe? Then where exactly is the center, prithee tell us?

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:05 PM By Arthur
I recently reviewed the film. And all I can say is that it was a nice pro-homosexual propaganda film, but not much else. It had no real balance and went into detail about how homosexuality supposedly is not truly condemned in the Bible. Even worse was the sad attempt to prove that homosexuality was "natural" by appealing to what animals do. Since some animals exhibit what may be "called" homosexual behavior, this is supposed to be proof that it is "natural" in humans. Logically, that is fatally flawed reasoning.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 7:09 PM By John Andersen
Grisha: I think the Catholic school should accept the kids, and have the mums sign a promise not to sue when the school starts to teach the girl's that their mothers' relationship is sinful in the eyes of the Lord. Currently, a private school is free to teach its prescribed value system. Unfortunately, extremists are working even now to take that liberty away from all religious organizations.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 7:21 PM By John L. Sillasen
Animal behavior is good; homosexual behavior is bad. People used to sacrifice animals, and some homosexuals seem to want to resume this practice ... guess they imagine it takes away their sin.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 7:26 PM By John Andersen
William: Absolutely I think we can get it repealed! The challenge is getting people to get out of their easy chairs to do something about it. Several national groups have quoted surveys that say only 50% of Christians are registered to vote, and of that only half have voted in recent general elections. Issues of morality aside, it is pathetic that only 25% bother to vote. Lay leaders need to pressure their respective churches to get the information out, get people to register to vote, and get petitions signed. If you are interested in some more direct info on how to get mobilized, I can post it here, or you can write to me at activist001@verizon.net

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 7:48 PM By Grisha
John Anderson: It's a boy and a girl. Should the 96% of the straight parents who use birth control to sign a statement that they won't sue the school for teaching the kids that their parents relationship sinful in the eyes of the Lord. Does your denomination teach that artificial birth control is sinful?

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:42 PM By John L. Sillasen
The clergy ought to give back its tax exemption, and free up its preaching skills. I just wonder if the tax exemption is really its primary motive. Maybe that's just a cover, so that they can claim they are not allowed to preach or teach politics.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:00 PM By george
Grisha: Why do they want to send children that belong to at least one of them to a Catholic school. Are they afraid they might be indoctrinated in public school? Or are they just using these poor children as pawns to advance their unholy agenda? Obviously, they do not believe in the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Posted Sunday, March 02, 2008 11:14 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Grisha, Do you think most parents tell their children that they use birth control? (Maybe in your neck of the woods they do.) And how many couples flaunt it? Birth control users, too, are not forming political action groups to push for societal acceptance of birth control.

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 6:02 AM By Grisha
.George: Indoctrination isn't the issue. They are looking for alternatives because SF Public schools have many problems common to all urban public schools. Gangs, poor discipline under funding etc. Catholic schools are an affordable alternative which attract many non-Catholic families (our parish school is 60% non-Catholic and the one my daughter taught at was 40% non Catholic.) Their "agenda" is getting their kids a good education. As I mentioned, they aren’t Catholics and don't feel they need to follow the all the teachings of our Church, though I'm aware they've both volunteered and contributed to the St. Anthony foundation. The “poor” children” are no more “pawns” for any “Unholy Agenda” then Christopher’s are for his holy agenda. They get good grades, seem to get along well with other kids and the boy is a particularly good competitive swimmer. So... George … as an old boss of mine would say “Let’s role play this..” You are the principal. Knowing what you know now, will you take the kids?

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 6:29 AM By Grisha
Christopher: No, most parents don't tell their children if they use birth control, though once they learn the facts of life, they'll undoubtedly figure that most parents with the standard 2.3 children do. Similarly I doubt most parents, hetro or homo, tell their kids what they do in their bedroom, and I'll assure you Mary and Claudia don't "flaunt" anything. While I would argue that the activities of political action groups are irrelevant to wether or not to take these kids, let me point out that there is one which is "pushing for societal acceptance of birth control." It's Planned Parenthood. So ..... your 'e the principal. Will you accept the two children in your school or not?

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 6:30 AM By John Andersen
Grisha: Great question! Yes -- I think every parent/guardian should have to acknowledge that they understand what the private school is going to teach their kids. If you don't know what the school is teaching, you shouldn't be sending them there. I am intrigued: Why would these "two moms" be choosing a Catholic School? Religious teaching? Abysmal failure of the government run schools? (Reminds me of the Jewish father that recently asked our church preschool and Sunday school to look after his daughter's soul! I told him "sure" -- and now I will be working on yours.)

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 8:46 AM By Peter
Let me ask you again William: "Since you seem to think that my personal relationship with God is somehow tainted because it is not based on Catholic/Christian doctrine - which you confirm in your subsequent post (Read "God for Dummies", have you?) - what will you say when at the moment of death, you are called before God? What makes you think that your relationship with God is so much more "appropriate"?

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 9:36 AM By Fr. M.P.
Being raised by "two moms?" Real Catholics, please pray for this group of people, especially the kids who are brought up to think that homosexual sin is "normal." This is part of the apostasy today - where evil is considered good, and the good of living God's ways are considered evil - hate crimes and homophobic in this case. Of course the modernists look for all sorts of "reasons" to use as excuses to justify said sinful behavior. On the totally different topic of the earth centered universe, have a look at "Galileo was Wrong."

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 10:47 AM By Grisha
John Anderson: I think my 6:02 AM and your 6:30 AM crossed in cyberspace. They are looking a Catholic schools because as you put it "Abysmal failure of the government run schools" at least on the high school level. When you combine the cost of most private schools with the fantastically high cost of living here, Catholic schools are an attractive option. The other factor for them is that the Catholic community has a great reputation for its ministry to homeless people and this commitment to social justice impresses them. BTW ~ while we don't proselytize in catholic schools, everyone has to take religion. My dentist is an evangelical who went from kindergarten through college and says that learning the Catholic faith made her stronger in her own faith.

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 4:36 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, ever hear of a roadmap ... God has given us a complete set of instructions for following the narrow path described by His Only Begotten Son, Jesus. Better than being addressed to dummies (are you thinking of the ones we see in TV scenes of crash test dummies, or blow up dummies?) ... Catholicism is addressed to people who are tired of being dummies. When that exact moment comes, they cease to be dummies, and advance to faithful.

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 10:58 PM By Ted
JLS - If you generate the bisectors of the length, width, and height of the universe, then the center is at the point where those intersect. That misses the Earth by at least a few kilometers.

Posted Monday, March 03, 2008 11:10 PM By William
Its real simple peter,I dont openly flaunt an obviously sinful lifestyle,as you apparantely do. I obey the commandments,and have been married for over 20 years. I dont pick and choose. I try to obey The Lord.If you are in a active homosexual relationship,its mortally sinfull. If you die in this state,you will be condemned to hell,forever. Its in the bible,and you have been warned.You cant rationalize it away. The 10 commandments are not multiple choice,you must obey all. As I said before,all sex outside of marriage is mortally sinful,and if you die with this on your soul,unrepented,there is a strong chance you will be condemned.Read a book on what hell is like,and then try to rationalize away a lifestyle of sin,and say that somehow it does not apply to you. Have you ever read the bible,or talked to a priest,honestly? Your eternity is at stake.

Posted Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:06 AM By John L. Sillasen
Ted, you're assuming the universe is measureable and Newtonian. Let's take an easier example, such as time. What is the midpoint of time? Even if you knew when the beginning and when the end of time were, how do you know that time has a constant rate? I would put forth more difficult stuff here, but the point is that science is no match for absolute truth, which is not a creature. Man always has the means to demonstrate that God is immeasureably greater than science. But science never has the means to demonstrate that it is superior to God.

Posted Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:53 PM By george
Grisha: Public schools are as they are due to people like your lesbian friends. In conjunction with groups like the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, GSA, and many others who are hell bent on turning our public schools into socially engineered liberal indoctrination centers instead of institutes of learning, people like your friends have ensured that prayer is outlawed in school, the “Christian” religion is outlawed in school, the teachers and administrators stand in loco-parents in responsibility for the students, but are prevented by law from disciplining students (positive interventions only – nice concept, but kids know they can do whatever they want without consequence), nurses and administrators must whisk young pregnant students off to abortionists without parental knowledge or consent – nor prosecution of abusers or rapists, the gay agenda MUST be taught to all students… and now a lesbian couple wants to send children to a Catholic School? Because they screwed up the public school? Excuse me? I think they should go to the SF public schools and demand a decent education for the children there! The public schools are what your friends have demanded they become – so other people’s children will be indoctrinated – why then not send their children? How long do you think it will be before they demand liberal social changes in the Catholic schools – and thus there becomes no difference between the Catholic and public school systems? Would I accept these kids? Sure, with the stipulation that the full faith of the Catholic church will be taught to them. There are no illegitimate children…

Posted Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:58 PM By Grisha
George ~ Mary and Claudia screwed up public schools. Isn't that a bit pre-judging. Actually, I suspecthave voted for the more conservative school board members over the years. FYI ~ the full faith of the Catholic Church is taught in all Catholic schools, to all students, wether they are Catholic or not. My daughter once had a Jewish student who was preparing for his bar mitzvah who tutored the younger students on the responses to the mass.

Posted Tuesday, March 04, 2008 10:33 PM By george
Grisha: How wonderful for you daughter. All Christianity comes from Judaism. Perhaps her Jewish student will one day come to Christ. Perhaps Mary or Claudia's children will come to Christ, I hope so. It is just interesting to me that lesbians demand public schools deny parents the right to exclude their children from the immoralities that must now be taught in public schools (Sen. Sheila Kruel SB 1441 & SB 777) and then they don’t want their children to go there. Could it be that working class Catholic families will no longer be able to afford, nor find a seat for their children, in their local parish schools? So the Catholic children are forced into the public schools while the children of more well-to-do homosexuals are first in line to take those seats. I’m open to permitting all children into Catholic Schools - who have a desire to learn and practice the faith. However, I would also submit that the children of Catholic parents, regardless of their ability to pay, be given priority for their children to attend Catholic Schools – particularly in areas like San Francisco that is rampant with moral disease and decay. I know there are lots of homosexual teachers and administrators. It seems to me that if they don’t want to send their children to public schools they could start their own private schools and teach any darn thing they want. Or they could campaign to overturn SB1441 and SB777, restore discipline authority to public school administrators and clean up the public schools so that all children can attend without fear of intimidation or indoctrination and again be permitted to be exposed to the same moral values that your friends are seeking for their in the Catholic school system.

Posted Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:03 PM By John Andersen
George is correct. Our "government-run" schools are in deep doodoo. In SoCal, surveys show that from 25-30% of public school teachers send their own kids to private school. Yet, it is these same teachers whose union (CTA) gives millions every election cycle to the Democrat Party in Sac, and zero to anyone else. It is the Dems who write the budget. It is the Dems who write the abhorrent bills like SB777. It is the CTA and Dems who continue to fight charter schools. While we all may want to defend our liberal friends, the sorry fact remains -- if you voted Dem, you helped create this problem.

Posted Tuesday, March 04, 2008 11:34 PM By Ted
John - My placement of the center of the universe was facetious, as with your question. I am glad you have an inside on the "absolute truth" though. For me however, in spite of what Sister Mary said, one interpretation of one translation of a subset of a group of writings produced thousands of years ago for different cultures and knowledge base, and chosen by a few men -- well, that just doesn't cut it. Yes, there are some truths, but "absolute" truths are limited.

Posted Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:49 AM By Peter
William, that is all fine well and good. You feel being self-righteous and following directions will get you into heaven. But I ask you again - any of you posting to this web-site - what will you say when at the moment of death, you are called before God? I bet none of you have any idea, do you, because no one has ever told you what you ought to say, right? That isn't in the textbook is it? So your personal relationship with God is no different, no deeper, no more personal than any other practicing "Catholic". You listen and obey; no rational thought involved. You know of God, but you really don't know him personally, do you?

Posted Sunday, March 09, 2008 6:46 PM By John L. Sillasen
Ted, you posted, " but "absolute" truths are limited": You gotta be kiddin', right? A limited absolute?! I think you mean an absolute limit, which is rational. But a limited absolute is meaningless. What you are porposing is that there is no truth. Have fun with your sanity.

Posted Sunday, March 09, 2008 8:26 PM By RR
Dear Peter, I thought you said there was no such thing as God?? Why would you have that made- up conversation with God, that you spoke of, if there is no God or no proof of God?? Love, RR(Rant & Rave)

Posted Monday, March 10, 2008 10:41 PM By Ted
OK John, please tell me what the "absolute truth" is. And while you are at it, point me to the proof of such.

Posted Monday, March 10, 2008 11:58 PM By Dave N.
People tend to confuse absolute truth with absolute morality, in my view. The expression "absolute truth" is non-sensical on its face—assertions of fact are either true or untrue. (If this weren't the case, we wouldn't be able to take a true/false exam and agree on the correct answers.) There's no expressible difference between "truth" and "absolute truth." Moral absolutes, in contrast, are moral imperatives that apply absolutely--in each and every case--regardless of the relative circumstances. People argue about these all the time.

Posted Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:56 PM By John L. Sillasen
Easy, Ted. God. Reason knows there is one "prime mover" as it is called in philosophy. There is no argument against this. +++ Dave N., you switched the topic from truth to fact.

Posted Thursday, March 13, 2008 6:11 AM By Ted
This thread might be dead already, but in case not --- John John John --- my goodness!!! The image you must have of me! You must think my face is red, neck veins bulging, foaming at the mouth... Well let me assure you, that is most definitely not the case. All I was doing was asking some questions: if you have an inside to the "absolute truth", what is it, and how do you know? That's all it was. Anyway, I know the logic path you are following. Believe me, I've seen it before. It goes like this: (1) This is all so complex that there must be a higher entity in charge, therefore (2) God exists (and he's usually the Judeo-Christian God), therefore (3) "my" interpretation of "my" holy book is literally correct, therefore (4) [insert "conclusion" here - creation was done in 144 hours, or Galileo was wrong, or "we" are the only true church, or whatever]. For me, I don't make the jumps like that, I am not that dogmatic. Thus I ask questions.

Posted Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:38 PM By John L. Sillasen
Ted, I just told you: God. Reason proves that there is a "prime mover", ie one creator. Plenty of people have written this in all sorts of ways for your reading pleasure. Knowing Who God is requires belief. Knowledge and belief are two different things. If you want to reason it out, you might try reading the greatest thinkers. St Paul makes some pretty good arguments based on reason. Then you might read St Augustine; following which my recommendation is St Thomas Aquinas. If you do not want to study these, and it doesn't require much in terms of volume, then you'll waste a lot of time trying to see it with lesser authors. As to your practical questions: I don't know when the earth was made, since I wasn't there. As to the center of creation ... I'd guess the Garden of Eden. For the true church, study them all, and then decide which one has never been proven wrong ... but you'll want to know the difference between the meanings of words such as "doctrines", "dogmas", small "t" traditions, capital "T" Traditions. Even if you learn all this stuff perfectly, you can only go so far with reason ... beyond that is the realm of faith; yet there is even more, and if you get there, then you will have arrived at the proof.

Posted Friday, March 14, 2008 7:25 AM By Ted
John, It isn't the existence of God that I have an issue with. My issue is when someone says "My religion is the only one" or "My interpretation of My holy book is the only right way". The Bible has truth, no doubt. But, in my belief at least, it is not "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", nor is it "the only truth". It has been misused throughout history. If there had been California Catholic Daily 400 years ago, I'm sure there would have been a discussion about Galileo Galilei and the "heretical" ideas he was promoting. The "truth" kind of let us down there, looks like. And that is just one example. Thanks for the list of scholars, but I'll check out some from other faiths too, just to balance things out. So bottom line: I believe in God, I believe the Bible has truth, and other people can help guide my spiritual path but cannot dictate it to me. And I am calm.

Posted Friday, March 14, 2008 11:00 AM By RR
Ted: I know this discussion is between you and John, but I would like to add something. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church who can trace it's roots to the Last Supper. All other Christian denominations come from the Catholic Church. They are all Protestant and were started by men. The Catholic Church was started by Christ. The Protestant religions protested against what the True Church taught, thus they went their own ways and started their own churches based on their own beliefs. So, technically, the only True Christians are Catholics.

Posted Friday, March 14, 2008 11:02 AM By RR
Ted: I know this discussion is between you and John, but I would like to add something. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church who can trace it's roots to the Last Supper. All other Christian denominations come from the Catholic Church. They are all Protestant and were started by men. The Catholic Church was started by Christ. The Protestant religions protested against what the True Church taught, thus they went their own ways and started their own churches based on their own beliefs. So, technically, the only True Christians are Catholics.

Posted Friday, March 14, 2008 4:08 PM By John L. Sillasen
A modest correction: Christianity resides within the Catholic Church. For example, Baptists are Christians because they have the Sacraments of baptism and marriage, which are the same Sacraments as one receives from a Catholic priest. Ted, I've studied all the arguments: The bottom line is this, it depends on how far you want to go spiritually. The Church has all the resources provided by God. But you can also find Godly resources elsewhere, such as I've mentioned above. The questions you present are thoroughly dealt with by reading St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinas. There are abridged works, so you don't have to wade through endless subtleties to get to what you are looking for. Think about this: If someone didn't claim his own faith to be the right one, then he wouldn't stay with it, would he; but he'd go look for the right one. OK, so go and look. You can spend centuries working out the reasoning behind various religions, or you can let one of the great authors of all time explain it more quickly. Another super resource I have found is International Catholic University; google it up., and then read to your heart's content. Another source of Catholicism is EWTN archives; just go there and click on what looks interesting. None of it however will help you without your earnest prayer. Gideon bargained with God, and God worked with him.

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