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Published: March 6, 2009
“Cancelled”
San Francisco archbishop calls off parish’s plans to host performance of ‘gay-friendly’ play directed at teens
San Francisco Archbishop George Niederauer has ordered the cancellation of a play based on the controversial book The God Box that had been scheduled this weekend at Most Holy Redeemer parish.
 “The parish has cancelled the play at the request of Archbishop George H. Niederauer,” said archdiocesan spokesman Maurice Healy in an email to California Catholic Daily. “Bishop William Justice, vicar for clergy, communicated this to the parish.”
Student actors from Sacred Heart Preparatory School in Atherton had been scheduled to perform the play, “Be Still and Know,” on Sunday afternoon, March 8, at Most Holy Redeemer, which according to the parish bulletin, “explores the subject of homosexuality within a Christian, adolescent context.”
The play was first performed on Jan. 30 at the Campbell Theatre for Performing arts on the Sacred Heart campus. “The play, adapted by SHP Drama Director John Loschmann from the novel The God Box by Alex Sanchez, explores the Bible’s view on homosexuality and the struggle adolescents have with their sexual identity and their identity as Christians,” said a Sacred Heart news release about the drama.
The God Box, published in 2007, won an award from the Lambda Literary Foundation, “the country's leading organization for LGBT writers and readers,” according to the group’s web site. Among those who have praised the The God Box is Episcopalian Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, who said of the book, "Alex Sanchez evokes the crucifying experience of adolescents wrestling with their sexual identity and their identity as Christians. He does a remarkably faithful job of opening up long-abused biblical passages often used as proof texts to denigrate homosexuality.”
Most Holy Redeemer, located in San Francisco’s Castro District, has repeatedly made news over the years for its homosexual-friendly activities: it is the parish where Archbishop Niederauer gave Communion to two transvestites dressed as nuns in 2007 (the archbishop later apologized), the parish where the same group of transvestite “nuns” – the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence – once held bingo games to raise money until they were kicked out on orders of the chancery in 2006, and the parish that until recently regularly sent a contingent to each year’s San Francisco “gay pride” parade. In fact, the parish is where the so-called “rainbow flag,” the banner of the homosexual-rights movement, was invented, according Jesuit Fr. Donal Godfrey, director of ministry at the University of San Francisco.
To see California Catholic Daily’s original story about the play, Click Here.
Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 1:49 AM By Melissa
Good news that this scandal was addressed. However, it seems that there is a cry out for Truth in our country... how wonderful would it be for there to be a play/book that addresses the Truth about same-sex attraction. People with same-sex attraction need guidance and hope that they can be healed... Holy Spirit, come and inspire your people!
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 5:26 AM By Eileen
Thank-you, California Catholic Daily for bringing this important story to everyones attention. Thank you, Archbishop George H. Niederauer for ordering the cancellation of this play. It is very uplifting to see our Archbishops take decisive action to protect all children and defend the fullness of Truth.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 6:04 AM By MarkF
Wow! This is good news, but is certainly only the start of a long education process. If we can believe that the earlier letters were in fact from students at Sacred Heart, the diocese has to get some better teaching in there to see that the students are not as deceived by the homosexual propaganda as they have been. One of them wrote that he sees nothing wrong with homosexuality. And this underlies a point I keep on making - that if a student thinks if it in the abstract (especially if the question is posed as one of "love") instead of in reality, it's hard to get them to accept the Church's teaching. In the abstract, the question of homosexuality is tough for a person steeped in the secular culture to understand. Especially when the propagandists pose it as a question of "why is love bad?" But that intentionally misses the point. What homosexuality is all about in reality has nothing to do with that we ever see in movies, TV, newspapers or in a play like this. This is where the Church needs to educate. Again I'll ask the question, does the Church teach us that something is a sin to keep something good away from us? Or does the Church warn us that something that looks harmless is in fact very dangerous? And don't all sins look good from the outside? If sin looked bad, would anyone do it? I really hope that some of the Sacred Heart students read this and listen.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 6:22 AM By Richard Perozich
Thank you, Archbishop, for your leadership and care for those with same sex attractions that they be led by the Church and not those who indulge in homosexual acts.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 6:41 AM By ELIZABETH
THANK YOU LORD!!!!!!
EVERYONE, KEEP UP THE PRAYERS FOR THE AB!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 7:40 AM By Kell Brigan
Rock on Bishop! (I've also become aware recently of how hard Bishop Niederauer has worked to get Proposition 8 passed. My frustrations with the status quo have been misdirected of late. I'm so glad I was wrong!)
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 7:54 AM By Bud
Congratulations, this is the thing to do. However, I do wonder, just how much outreach does the Church provide? Do our parochial schools provide enough information to truthfully answer the current Radical Activism?
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 8:19 AM By LR
The play has not been cancelled. The new location is a Catholic University.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 8:27 AM By Kell Brigan
What I just sent off to the folks at Courage Apostolate: I'm sure some of you have been following the story about a play about homosexuality in California. I'm personally glad this particular play's been cancelled due to its intrinsic conflicts with Catholic teachings, but it's clear that many of the kids and teachers involved have their hearts in the right place. Perhaps Courage could (if you haven't already?) put together a similar play or presentation for high schools that would discourage discrimination and harassment, but also encourage students at a crucial point in their lives to understand the pressures they're under, and that they may be incorrectly assuming they're "gay" in response to personal doubts or insecurities, etc. Just a thought. Seems like there's a need here."
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 8:33 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Thank you, CalCatholic, for publicizing this outrageous event so that people could take action. I hope readers see more than ever that their comments and actions taken to the right places - in public - can result in positive action being taken.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 8:43 AM By Thank you Archbishop
For protecting the children.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 9:33 AM By Almond Milk
Praise God! I'm tired of all these scandals. Glad we can stop them before they cause more harm to souls.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 10:49 AM By Central valley
Thank you California Catholic Daily for your defense of the Faith.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 12:17 PM By Anne T.
Thank you Lord Jesus and Archbishop Niederauer for stopping this play. To encourage students to engage in homosexual activity, which is harmful to the body and disease ridden, not to mention a misuse of the sexual function, would be utterly evil.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 1:28 PM By Peter
Surprise, surprise.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 1:52 PM By Mary Ann
Thank you, Your Excellency. Now please cancel Communion for Speaker Nancy Pelosi who promotes both homosexual sodomy and abortion.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 4:07 PM By Mary J.
What a relief but I don't think this will be the end of the homosexual agenda at Sacred Heart and in our schools.
More needs to be done to uproot this deception and to ensure our youth are being taught the truth of God's word.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 4:40 PM By Carol
Please correct me if I am wrong, but this play has not been cancelled, just moved. It is scheduled at University of San Francisco. Has anyone else heard this?
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 4:40 PM By JPeterman
This is what St Paul described as "shining the light" on sin. It's our job to talk it up, write the Bishops and generally be the thorn in someone's side that Mother Angelica says we must be. Shine the light on this type of garbage for what it truly is. No Homosexual glorifying play, you lose liberals! That's one win for the good guys, one small battle, many to go.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 4:41 PM By Michel
Thank you to Our Lord and His Blessed Mother. I owe a big thank you to Archbishop Niederauer, of whom I have been critical in the past for his having given Holy Communion to the transvestite "nuns" at this same parish. I am pleasantly surprised that Archbishop Niederauer has taken this principled stand against the homosexual agenda and will include him in my daily prayers for courage and fortitude. The homosexual community in San Francisco is a powerful lobby and His Excellency is likely to be given some grief by them for his stand. In any event, my thanks to him.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 5:12 PM By Sam
Does anyone know why the play was moved to University of San Francisco?
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 5:40 PM By Linda Maria
Thank you, Archbishop Niederauer, for cancelling this horrible play, to be presented by Catholic young people after Mass during Lent, of all horrible things!! What in the world are these kids learning in our so-called "Catholic" schools? Can the Archbishop please establish a strict code of ethics and Catholic "rules and regulations," which all Catholic parishes, schools, hospitals, and related organizations must operate by?
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 5:50 PM By Central Valley 2
I'm confused. Apparently the Bishop did not cancel the play. University of San Francisco and MHR and hosting it at USF on Sunday. Anyone know anything?
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 6:19 PM By Talitha Kumi
Praise God! Thank You californiacatholicdaily. Why did the Archbishop cancel this play? interior or exterior motivation?
just a woderin' that's all. The result is the same in this instance; but a change of heart could mean that more shepherding is to follow. Wouldn't that be wonderful
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 6:34 PM By Velani Polumen
"I want to tell you something. At a certain point in your life, probably when too much of it has gone by, you will open your eyes and see yourself for who you are, especially for everything that made you so different, from all the awful normals. You will say to yourself that I AM special, and in that statement there will be a kind of love."
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 10:21 PM By Alfonso
Thank you Archbishop for putting a stop to this attack on vulnerable and confused youth. Sanchez's work is fundamentally dishonest and antithetical to our Catholic faith. The audacity of deceivers to want to use archdiocesan property and resources to spread propaganda that undermines not just Christian belief but goes against the natural law. As Catholics we love and respect everyone but we can never go along with the deception of sin. We love the sinner but hate the sin and call everyone to conversion. Telling people that deadly sin is ok is akin to murdering souls. Who will answer for people chewed up and spit out by the "gay" lifestyle -- for people who died in deadly sin and lost their souls forever.
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Posted Friday, March 06, 2009 11:32 PM By branislav
I must be dreaming
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:35 AM By Mark from PA
This play spoke of tolerance. It also spoke out against bullying kids and making fun of them. Sadly, this is a message that some do not want to hear. Sadly, some think that these kids deserve to be treated like that because they are considered evil due to their sexual orientation.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:15 AM By Liz
The play was not cancelled. It was moved to Presentation Theater at University of San Francisco, Sunday at 2:00
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:17 AM By betty
I'm impressed. I had just about given up hope and decided that all the bishops had gone a little crazy. I'm with Linda Maria (did I get that name right?) Parents (and grandparents like me) would like definite statements, not wishy-washy half-statements that don't really mean anything to anybody.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:38 AM By Pax Christi
Mark from PA, did the play send any message whatsoever that homosexuals are not to act on their disordered inclinations? If not, why not?
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:40 AM By Almond Milk
We can have a play that expresses love to all children not a play that chooses a type of disorder and then uses it to condone that immortal activity/behavior. What homosexuals need is true physiological mental help. They need us to help them and guide their spirituality in Christ towards healing, to help them to embrace abstinence, to understand healthier ways to relationships like a heterosexual needs to understand God's plan in avoiding promiscuous sexual behavior etc, learning to respect self, the temple of Christ, learning that we are created in the image of God and what that means. There are healthier choices, free will to choose them and choosing truth and Christ's salvation plan for humanity that will help all humanity with all types of sins that human's are pronged to fall into temptation. True love for these fallen brothers and sisters is to have programs that will help them choose to embrace another path, not the one they are pronged to embrace out of fleshly or mental desires.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 11:02 AM By Jon
First, I am very conservative, anti-gay marriage. I read the book and did not like it at all. But I did see the play and was very moved. It was extremely well-done. To Pax, the answer to your question is Yes it did send that message. The book and the play were different.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 11:36 AM By LOT
Sunlight is the best disenfectant.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 12:32 PM By Grisha
It's almost impossible to educate about tolerance without talking about the various kinds of people who are the victims of intolerance and why. The FBI reported that in 2007 that while hate crimes against other groups went down, crimes against gays increased. Our religion teaches that homosexual acts are a sin. It also teaches that homophobic acts are sinful, ranging from disrespect (The " bullying kids and making fun of them." Mark fm PA refers to above) to rape (the lesbian woman in Richmond recently) and murder (The straight, Catholic Ecuadorian man in NYC who was walking arm in arm with his brother right after the election) I truly believe that during the Prop 8 campaign many, including Catholics, contributed to an atmosphere of fear mongering and hysteria and which makes this kind of thing more likely to happen.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 12:38 PM By JLS
Velani Polumen, if everyone is special, then being special has no meaning.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:34 PM By Mark from PA
I read about that Grisha. A man was actually killed for walking arm in arm with his brother. When will the hatred and homophobia end? But then the guys that killed that guy probably don't think they are homophobes. Most don't. They just think they are sending a message.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:06 PM By Maria
I'm seeing a lot of thanks being given for canceling the play. But maybe this is premature and everyone will need to call the bishops again. The play is still scheduled. A larger venue has been chosen: USF, apparently in the Presentation Theater. It received rave reviews down here on the Peninsula, so it's not surprising that more shows will be held.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:50 PM By Maria
JLS, I strongly disagree. Each human being is special in his own way.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:42 PM By Mark from PA
Thanks for the answer Jon. I have read about this, Pax Christi. but have not seen the play. In truth, Pax Christi, I do not think that teens (gay or straight) should be sexually active. I think it is important that kids this age learn to love and respect themselves. The love of family and friends is what is also most important at this age. I think teaching tolerance and respect for others is also very important.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:10 PM By Velani Polumen
JLS: Everyone is special. God makes it so. Are his ways “meaningless” to you? God created the visible world in all its richness, diversity and order; and the order and harmony of the created world results from the diversity of beings and from the relationships which exist among them. Indeed, Jesus Christ has a special relationship with each person who comes into the world. Each and every person is uniquely created in the image of God. Indeed, the “eachness” of each creature is special, for each is “distinct among others of a kind” in keeping with the diversity and distinction within God’s creation. True distinction. Genuinely special.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:15 PM By simone_dubois
What is it we are supposed to tolerate? Sin??? We are supposed to love one an other as God has loved us. Even unto death. I believe we should treat others as we wish to be treated. I sure hope people will correct me and call me to repentence. If they love me they will be concerned for my eternal salvation. Please do not tolerate sin from me, Love me enough to admonish me to repent of my sins, call me to conversion, I beg you.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:27 PM By JLS
Grisha, the proportion of so called hate crimes against homosexuals is minimal compared to the other categories. I saw no atmosphere of fear among the many pro prop 8 families around here ... but the one anti-prop 8 group displayed the typical liberal emo stuff like fear, anger, hate, disrespect, etc.
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Posted Saturday, March 07, 2009 9:42 PM By JLS
Grisha, what about teaching tolerance for God? How do you get this across to the secular school systems or governments, which suppress any talk about God?
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:33 AM By Lisa T.
This is definitely a step in the right direction. Thank you archbishop Niederauer. There is so much more that needs to be done to make Most Holy Redeemer a real Catholic Church again although I recommend closing the parish even if only temporarily. The current parish administration has to go as well as the mostly homosexual ministry heads.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:37 AM By JPeterman
Grisha, once again you've proven yourself to be a tool of the left. The anti prop 8 forces were radical, and intimidating people right outside their church, NOT the other way around. Remember the older lady who was pushed and shoved by radical homosexual demonstrators, nice people that would do something like that.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:57 AM By Jon
Mark from PA, I agree with your comments and my observations are this is exactly what is being taught by Catholic schools and fostered by Catholic parents.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 12:23 PM By Jon
JPeterman, And nice people also wouldn't push, shove, harm and call homosexuals derogatory names, something that is all too common. We really need to start with ourselves. The Prop 8 issues has brought out the worst in both sides.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 12:36 PM By Grisha
JPeterman: May I ask t you to refrain from the ad holmium attacks. Vandalism and the shoving of the lady in Palm Springs were hate crimes that need to be investigated and prosecuted. Please recall however, that no Prop 8 supporter was raped or murdered.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:01 PM By Maria C
Velani Polumen I don't know if you are new but to ask JLS "Are his ways “meaningless” to you?" as you asked in your post is actually not a good question because JLS loves the Lord and His church, so your question to him is disrespectful. Perhaps you could of asked it in a different way that would not accuse him of that. From JLS's previous posts you can tell that the Catholic faith and His relationship with Christ has meaning. Perhaps you are taking his comment out of context. I don't know what he meant with it. I also believe that God has made each one of us special in His own way but to label sinful behavior special that is wrong and truly not from God.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:02 PM By Lisa T.
By allowing Most Holy Redeemer parish to exist in its present state the Archbishop is allowing scandal to flourish and is risking the souls of thousands. There are really only three things that Archbishop Niederauer, can do to hopefully convert MHR back into a true Catholic parish****** 1) THE ARCHBISHOP can issue an INTERDICT against Most Holy Redeemer Parish until the pastor, priests and almost the entire congregation bring themselves back in line with the Church (very unlikely prospect) This action will without doubt draw international attention and plenty of protests inside and outside the church from the Gay community***** 2) THE ARCHBISHOP can and must permanently remove Father Meriwether from Most Holy Redeemer Parish along with any other priests who have enabled the current pro-homosexual environment at MHR and Install good holy priests who are faithful to the magisterium and who are willing to sacrifice their lives to defend and uphold the teaching of the Catholic Church. The “sacrifice their lives” part is to be taken seriously because if any Catholic priest or priests were to actually start preaching what the Catholic Church teaching is on homosexuality at MHR there more than likely will be acts of violence from residents in the Castro neighborhood. Volunteer ministry positions should be discontinued for a few years since the majority of the ministry volunteers are held my homosexuals who are in same sex relationships. The chances of filling these volunteer position vacancies with non-practicing homosexuals who aren’t in some way endorsing the homosexual lifestyle by word or deed are almost zero. A friend of mine pointed out to me that if good loyal priest s were to be installed at MHR the majority of parishioners would leave. This second action would also draw international attention and protests by the Gay community. 3) THE ARCHBISHOP can close Most Holy Redeemer Parish and raze the church buildings which in my opinion have probably been desecrated beyond redemption judging by photos and video footage I’ve seen of pro-homosexual events that have taken place there. This action would also cause international attention and protest
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:27 PM By Linda
Unfortunately, there was and continues to be misbehavior on the various sides of the Prop 8 political campaign, including lies, which are a real form of violence against others. Members of both sides have sought to push and shove. That's politics as usual.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:51 PM By JLS
"Special" according to Merriam-Webster: "1: distinguished by some unusual quality ; especially : being in some way superior". So, unless we use some sort of marketing industry definition, or political definition, then we're back to square one, in that since all people are special, then there is no meaning to the word.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 2:29 PM By Mark from PA
Lisa T, if you don't like Most Holy Redeemer Parish, don't go there. We are a diverse church and hopefully have room for all. Who are you to say that they should close a parish and deprive the parishioners of the Sacraments?
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 3:15 PM By JLS
Linda, you forgot to include rumors against others. But then the "Hate 8" crowd revels unsubstantiated rumors; just read their posts, which seldom include facts. Since when did lying become violence?
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 3:59 PM By Velani Polumen
JLS: Although you listed just one of many definitions for "special" from Merriam-Webster, even the one definition you listed exemplifies exactly what I said. Everyone is "distinguished by some unusual quality," namely each and every person is uniquely created in the image of God, who distinguishes each person from every other. "Being in some way superior" is a particularly common sense of the word, although perhaps not a necessary sense. But here again, everyone is "in some way superior", just as different people have different functions and different gifts, and every man has dominion over the animals and objects. Merriam-Webster's other definitions for "special" also apply, such as "readily distinguishable from others of the same category : unique" and "designed for a particular purpose or occasion", etc. "Square one" is God's creative plan of distinction for each and every person. God makes everyone "special", in keeping with his plan, whether you appreciate the meaning in that or not.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 5:12 PM By Linda
JLS, you asked "when did lying become violence?" Answer: "Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships." (CCC#2486) And I didn't forget to include mention of rumors against others, so don't forget that it's not just the "Hate 8 crowd" who promotes unsubstantianted rumors and lacks facts. That can be found on all sides.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 5:13 PM By JLS
There you go, Velani Polumen, assuming I didn't read the whole bit in the dictionary. I'd recommend adding a context to your argument, as it has some good possibilities. But now that you're getting down to it, yes, it is not only important for us to know that we each are created unique, but that it is critical for survival to know, recognize and respect each personality. It is the common temptation to depersonalize human beings that presently is providing fuel for abortion. "A person is a person, no matter how small" is critical, and also it is critical that society understands that the person is meant to be inviolate.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:21 PM By jane
Hate the sin. Love the sinner.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:38 PM By Lot
Holy Redeemer was built when working class catholic families lived and worked in the cities. With gentrification many inner cities have been taken over by wealthy single professionals. In places like San Francisco and Manhattan (NYC) there is no family life there; a foreigner visiting once said "Where are the children?" The thinking and attitude of these urban sophisticates can be quite hostile to Christianity. This creates a huge problem when the Diocese has everything clustered in the inner city (chancery, catholic organizations and offices, cathedral, hospitals and parishes) because the great majority of working families who support church teachings are miles away and the urban gentry are hostile or indifferent. It creates difficulties when hiring people to work at places like Catholic charities because it is essential that staff understand and uphold catholic morality. The other weird thing that has happened is parishes where the "liberals" have tried to take over and create a strange new catholic church which is not authentically catholic at all. For the good of the faith, and the salvation of souls these places will have to be shut down; the sacrileges perpetrated there can not continue.
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Posted Sunday, March 08, 2009 7:08 PM By JPeterman
Grisha I'm not sure what "ad holmium" is but I know that you're constantly restating the liberal, pro homosexual tag lines verbatim. This is a fact, and if you're doing this you are indeed their tool.
Jon, you too have presented the classic "persecution complex" which the homosexual movement has been pushing for years. It's all bunk and nobody here is buying it. Homosexuals are the last to persecuted and don't bother to tell us about some hate crime perpetrated by a demon. There was also Baptist preacher shot in his church today, it's a random act of evil These anti homosexual acts are rare yet are perpetually hyped by the media as if the whole gay community were being attacked day and night. It's all a load of bs. The Bishop has spoken, no gay glamorizing play in the Church.
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Posted Monday, March 09, 2009 1:01 PM By Grisha
Lot: I basically agree with your sociological analysis. Keep in mind however that Manhattan is an island and SF is a peninsula. The result is a natural pressure on housing. The same dynamics apply in other cities, but not to the extent they do here and in NYC. That having been said, I live in SF and am not wealthy nor are most of my friends and NO ONE would consider me "urban gentry." Actually if I think about it most of my very affluent friends live in the Peninsula area. Most of us in my parish are empty nesters. There are some young families but for the most part , as soon as they can afford to buy a home it's likely to be in the "burbs" We raised our daughter in SF. She turned out fine. There is some advantage in life to getting to 18 and knowing on an experiential level that everyone isn't white, middle class and Catholic and having seen homeless people dying of AIDS rather than reading about it. As for Catholic charities, their work tends to be focused in the urban environment,. I'm not sure staffing that kind of an agency with mostly "burb" raised young people is a good idea. I'm curious. Where do you live? What's your parish like??
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Posted Monday, March 09, 2009 3:23 PM By Anne T.
Most families left San Francisco, Lot, when the homosexual community took over. They did not want to raise their children around that kind of decadence. It is the same in a lot of big cities. New Orleans had it Southern Decadence "Celebration", and from what I heard it lived up to its name. That was before the flooding. And Mark from PA, there have been more homosexuals killed by homosexual serial killers than by heterosexuals I believe. Murders is always wrong, but the behavior has killed many with disease too.
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Posted Monday, March 09, 2009 5:32 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, my husband and I are native Californians and have always lived in interracial areas, but the ones we have lived/live in did/do not put up with some of the stuff that goes on in San Francisco. If it happens it is soon stopped, or it is done in private so no one knows about it.
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Posted Monday, March 09, 2009 6:51 PM By Mark from PA
Anne T, to the best of my knowledge, most serial killers are men who kill women. I was never aware that most homosexuals who are murdered are killed by homosexual serial killers. I never heard this.
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Posted Monday, March 09, 2009 9:39 PM By Lot
Grisha compared to alot of others you might be considered well off. Did your daughter go to private school? Also the areas outside SF are probably more economically/racially diverse than SF itself. I am not talking here about the stockbroker/country club suburbs your friends might live in. And by the way homelessness is a problem everywhere. Vallejo is not a "white middle class catholic suburb".
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Posted Monday, March 09, 2009 11:39 PM By Anne T.
Mark from PA, I listed on another blog here at least seven homosexual men, just in the United States, who were rapists and serial killers of young boys and men. There are more, I am sure. John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer are just two of them. If you put in homosexual serial killers or just serial killers, you will find many there. The point I was making is that ANYONE, homosexual or heterosexual, who allows themselves to go with strangers for sex are leading very dangerous lives -- not only because of diseases they might catch and harm done to their bodies by the acts, but because of the murderous intentions of some people. Jeffrey Dahmer tortured to death young boys, then had sex with them AFTER they were dead and even ate their flesh. he killed at least seventeen boys and young men. He was a real monster. When Dr. James Dobson, the Christian psychologist, interviewed him, Dahmer told him it all started when he started reading pornography and got jaded and needed more and more excitement.
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:57 AM By Almond Milk
Anne T your comments were interesting. Enjoyed reading them.
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 4:47 PM By Ben
Anne T, far more than all the victims of serial killers combined, people get diseases from and are killed by their married spouse. In fact, the standard initial murder suspect is the victim's spouse. It's not surprising thus that Paul said, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:37 PM By Anne T.
Ben, I am not disputing that, although I do not know if is true. One website said 97% of serial killers were homosexual in one survey. Of course, if what you say is true, there are more people in heterosexual relationships, so it would be logical to have more heterosexuals killing heterosexuals. Also, I think more women are killed by boyfriends or live-in lovers than husbands. Men who marry women usually have more traditional moral values.The point is though, people who have sex with people they do not know take more chances and are more likely to end up dead, and often in a most horrible manner, whether by homosexual or heterosexuals. According to one website there have been at least 47 homosexual or bisexual serial killers in my lifetime. Many killed way more than two or three people. Also, most spouses who kill their spouses are in some sordid things too -- such as pornography, drugs, excessive alcohol use, adultery, etc. Often they are experimenting with both heterosexual and homosexual sex. When people use pornography it often opens the door more and more to more decadent behavior. That is common sense.
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:41 PM By Mark from PA
Anne T, most people have heard of Jefferey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy but they are just two people, and you mentioned five others. But most serial killers are not gay. I strongly agree that ANYONE who allows themselves to go with strangers for sex are leading very dangerous lives but when did I ever say anything to approve such dangerous and damaging behavior? I have stated many times here that I do not believe that teens should be sexually active and that I do not approve of casual sex.
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:07 PM By Lot
Ben - the scripture verse you quote has nothing to do with spouse abuse; it regards the teaching on the permance of the marriage bond - that divorce is not an option and it is the response of the apostles in the gospels not Paul.
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:37 PM By Ben
I don't speculate on why Paul or the apostles said what they said on marriage. I just said it's not a surprise that they cautioned about marriage. Spousal abuse is common and as the marriage bond is permanent, it can be better not to marry. Not to mention the harmful effects on children.
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Posted Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:00 PM By Ben
Anne T, the internet is not a reliable source. "One website" might say 97% are homosexual, and another might say the Catholic Church is evil. There is little reliable evidence about the sexuality of serial killers, and for most of them, their sexuality is so terribly distorted that it's not fair to label them homosexual or heterosexual any more than it would be fair to call Gacy Catholic. And when it comes to "sordid things like pornography, drugs, excessive alcohol use, adultery", I'd say if you look close enough, it's possible that most people, whether they're killers or not, are "into" such things to some degree. But it's only a minority who kill and have their private lives made public and sensationalized. So what appears to be "common sense" is often little more than an unrecognized bias.
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Posted Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:40 AM By grisha
Anne T: Really - The flight of families with young children from SF (or for that matter Manhattan) has nothing to do with gays and everything to do with economics. Our LGBT population is large but mainly invisible. Come visit. Drive through the Castro and you won't be able to tell it's a gay neighborhood. Just regular looking people gong about their business. ----LOT: All of us in America are likely to be better off than most people in the world. FYI - My daughter went SF public schools including Wallenberg which is a magnet school sort of modeled on Catholic schools at least as far as discipline is concerned. We don't own a house here because the money went into a private college for her. One makes choices and, for us it was the right one. She still got loans, and worked. She's getting her masters at USF (Go Dons!) and is paying for it herself.
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Posted Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:50 PM By JLS
Ben, you need to reread the passage by St Paul. The reason for not marrying is to serve the Church in a way that married people cannot do.
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Posted Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:03 PM By Ben
JLS, it's actually you who'd do well to reread my post, as well as you who'd do well to better understand what Paul and the apostles were saying. I said it wasn't surprising that Paul and others spoke against marrying, and I cited the trouble of spousal abuse as one reason why I (not Paul) am not surprised. Because Paul did not explain his reasons in detail, we can only speculate whether spousal abuse was among the reasons Paul had in mind when he said, "those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this." However, there is no speculation that spousal abuse is a trouble that one is spared from by not marrying.
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Posted Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:46 PM By Grace56
A study of 518 sexually-tinged mass murders in the U.S. from 1966 to 1983 determined that 350 (68%) of the victims were killed by those who practiced homosexuality and that 19 (44%) of the 43 murderers were bisexuals or homosexuals.
Though probably less than a majority of mass murderers are homosexual, given that no more than 3% of the populace is gay, homosexual murderers show up much more frequently than one would expect (even Richard Speck engaged in homosexuality). Along with serial murder, there appears to be a connection between homosexuality and murder. Evidence from before the gay rights movement is limited. Of 444 homicides in one jurisdiction from 1955-1973, investigators noted 5 clear "sexual motivation" murders. Three of the 5 involved homosexuality and 2 involved heterosexuality.
Impact of Violence On The Homosexual Lifespan
A study of 6,714 obituaries (22) in gay newspapers across the U.S. revealed that 3% of 6,574 gays and 20% of 140 lesbians had died violently:
• 1.4% of gays and 7% of lesbians were murdered (rates over a hundred times those of non-gays);
• 0.6% of gays and 5.7% of lesbians committed suicide (rates dozens of times those of non-gays); and
• 0.6% of gays and 4.3% of lesbians died in motor vehicle accidents (over 17 times the rate of non-gays)
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Posted Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:29 PM By JLS
Ben, what you're doing is sliding your own agenda into the mouth of St Paul. There is no cause for speculating on what St Paul teaches ... it is very clear. If you need to explore the remedy for spousal abuse, then the chief Scripture is the Greatest and Eleventh Commandment: Worship God and love your neighbor. Then you can go to some of the teaching of St Paul such as the relationship between man and wife. The term "man and wife" is a better term than "spouses", because it denotes the fact that it is men and women who marry, and not any couple.
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Posted Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:22 PM By Ben
JLS, it's "very clear" that St. Paul was talking about troubles faced by married persons vs single persons, and it's very clear that spousal abuse is in fact one of the many troubles faced by married persons. It is by the "Eleventh Commandment" of "worship God and love your neighbor" that I speak with the voice of the Church against spousal abuse, which is sin. "Spouse" is an entirely acceptable and appropriate word. You can find it used throughout Church teaching. It means "a marriage partner; a husband or wife". I don't know anyone that uses the term to refer to "any couple".
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Posted Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:02 PM By Ben
Grace68, any researcher who says "homosexual murderers show up much more frequently than one would expect" is probably not a very good researcher. Most serial killing is by persons who struggle with sex issues, and many people -- including heterosexual persons -- struggle with homosexual issues for a variety of reasons, including for reasons beyond merely having such inclinations. People who cannot resolve such issues without murdering are the typical serial killer. This does not say anything negative about the 99.99999% of homosexual persons who are not serial killers, just like though millions of women have abortions that does not mean there's something wrong with being a woman. You also cited research based on obituary evidence of a higher likelihood to die violently. The problem with such studies it's actually comparing obituaries found in gay activist publications with those found in a general newspaper. This is like comparing apples and oranges. Gay activist publications do not tend to publish obituaries of everyday gay people, but typically only younger people and those whose deaths would rally people to "the cause". Of course, even if gay people are more likely to die violently, so are Christian martyrs. What of it? Likewise, you have a serious problem with your 1955-1973 study, which should be obvious given the small numbers cited (3 out of 5) which lack statistical reliability and its reliance on notations by investigators who would culturally be more likely to note homosexuality when that was an issue than to note heterosexuality when that was an issue. It would seem that you have an agenda in posting these sorts of discredited studies, and out of charity, I will hope that you think you're being helpful, even though such posts tend to contribute to the very problem that you may be seeking to end. May God have mercy.
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