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Published: July 9, 2009
San Francisco Democrat tries to undercut Prop. 8
Leno bill goes to committee Friday
 California State Senator Mark Leno (D-San Francisco) is attempting what “Catholics for the Common Good” Chairman Bill May is calling “a legislative slight of hand tactic” to force the state of California to recognize same-sex “marriages” taking place in other states.
From a “Catholics for the Common Good” Action Alert:
“Because of a legislative slight of hand tactic called ‘gut and amend‘, we are called on once again to defend Prop 8 in the California Legislature. A hearing on SB 54, a bill to recognize same-sex ‘marriages’ from other states is scheduled to be heard in the Assembly Judiciary Committee on Thursday, July 9.
The bill is co-authored by Senator Marc Leno (D- San Francisco) and sponsored by Equality California. According to May, SB 54 “…started as healthcare legislation, passed the Senate floor, moved to the Assembly where it passed the Health Committee. On its way to the Assembly Judiciary Committee, something changed – EVERYTHING CHANGED. All the original language was stripped out and an attack in Prop 8 was substituted -- after it had been reviewed by three legislative committees and passed the Senate as a completely different bill.
“The bill seeks to recognize same-sex ‘marriages’ from other states. If the out-of-state same-sex ‘marriages’ took place after the passage of Prop 8, all of the rights and privileges would still be recognized, except for the use of the word ‘marriage‘. This is a clear violation of Article I, section 7.5 of the California Constitution (Prop 8) that reads, ‘Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.’ The California Supreme Court has already upheld Prop 8.”
“The Court specifically stated that their ruling had no effect on same-sex ‘marriages’ from other states or countries (page 135, note 46). If SB 54 passes, it will create a flimsy basis for new legal challenges that will waste more taxpayer money fighting the clearly expressed will of the voters on traditional marriage. This is particularly outrageous at a time when the state is forced to cut deeply into funding for vital human needs because of the current budget crisis.”
Senator Leno’s “Facebook” page describes the bill:??“Senator Leno’s Senate Bill 54, sponsored by Equality California, has been amended to clarify that same-sex couples who married outside of California before Proposition 8 went into effect on November 5, 2008 are recognized as married spouses. The bill also confirms that same-sex couples who married outside California after November 5, 2008, or plan to do so in the future, must receive the same rights, protections, benefits, obligations and responsibilities afforded to opposite-sex spouses, with the sole exception of the designation of “marriage.’…
The Court’s decision states that California must recognize the marriages of couples who married in California before the passage of Prop 8 but does not specify how couples who married outside of the state should be recognized….”
The Leno bill is is co-authored by the members of the LGBT Legislative Caucus, including Senator Christine Kehoe and Assembly members Tom Ammiano and John A. Pérez.
SB 54 will be heard by the Assembly Judiciary Committee on Thursday, July 9, before Friday's legislative deadline for bills to be reported out of policy committees. Catholics for the Common Good asks that Californians concerned about this maneuver contact the Judiciary Committee Members and ask them to stop trying to overturn the will of the voters. Judiciary Committee Members are:
Mike Feuer (D-AD42), Chairman Phone: (916) 319-2042 Fax: (916) 319-2142 Van Tran (R-AD68), Vice-Chairman Phone: (916) 319-2068 Fax: (916) 319-2168 Julia Brownley (D- AD41) Phone: (916) 319-2041 Fax: (916) 319-2141 Noreen Evans (D- AD7) Phone: (916) 319-2007 Fax: (916) 319-2107 Dave Jones (D- AD9) Phone: (916) 319-2009 Fax: 916 319 2109 Steve Knight (R-AD36) Phone: (916) 319-2036 Fax: (916) 319-2136 Paul Krekorian (D-AD43) Phone: (916) 319-2043 Fax: (916) 319-2143 Ted Lieu (D-AD53) Phone: (916) 319-2053 Fax: (916) 319-2153 Bill Monning (D-AD27) Phone: (916) 319-2027 Fax: (916) 319-2127 Jim Nielsen (R-AD2) Phone: (916) 319-2002 Fax: (916) 319-2102
Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 3:21 AM By Thomas Edward Miles
Thank you, for the phone numbers, I will call to support Senator Mark Leno bill today! Keep up the good work!!
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 10:41 AM By Pax Christi
I'd like to return the advice that Leno and his ilk are so fond of telling conservatives: Don't you have better things to do on our dime? For instance, like fixing the state's budget that is in shambles?
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 1:04 PM By Brother Sebastian
The old clique is correct: "The Devil NEVER Sleeps" Pray that the deception, tricks, and evil deeds will be stopped and overcome by the good souls of California and all of the Angels in Heaven. This evil must stop! Pray for Blessed Mother's help! Pray many times daily: August Queen of Heaven, Sovereign Mistress of the Angels, who didst receive from the very beginning the mission and the power to crush the serpents head. We beseech thee to send thy holy Angels that under thy command and by thy power they may pursue the evil spirits, encounter them on every side, resist their bold attacks, and drive them hence into the abyss of woe (hell). Most holy Mother send thy Angels to defend us and to drive the cruel enemy from us. All ye holy Angels help and defend us Amen. Oh good and tender Mother, thou shalt ever be our love and our hope. Holy Angels and Archangels, keep and defend us. Amen.
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:28 PM By Observant
So much for the "great victory" alleged in the May 2009 CA Supeme Court opinion "upholding Proposition 8"!!! The court did no such thing, instead opening wide the door to this exact kind of chicanery, which will continue.
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:46 PM By Robin
This is great! It will get rid of the legal limbo that these couples are in!
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 7:03 PM By James Dutra
It's so funny as a Catholic I'm embarrassed by many of the followers of this church. Talk about a bunch of bigots and child molesters. The public has caught on - moving your priests around after they violate children is nothing you can hide from - not even behind trying to divert the attention away from you and placing it onto the gay community. If I were an old stubborn Catholic I would look to the youth who obviously are getting it - and I would accept all people as children of God and treat them equally. Amen
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 8:31 PM By Diane
The Sodomites are at it again! Instead of walking away from Catholicism, they work constantly to force the Catholic Church not only to acknowledge their existence but also to be a part of the Church(such as a few Protestant churches have provided). This makes them feel less immoral and degenerate. Then, they infiltrate as many seminaries as possible with the intention of selecting those who can be swayed and those who can't, such as was done at St. John's Seminary in Camarillo, Ca., Cdl. Mahony's alma mater. Next, use lawsuits to win recognition and acceptance. And spend their lives trying to create legislation to trick acceptance... this can go on for forever. But the most coveted desire is the word, marriage! Think how legal and moral that word sounds. They are now husbands and wives now, just like everybody else. Now they can adopt children. Does anyone know what goes on in such a home? Gay Pride Parades will tell us much about their lifestyle. If they wish to pursue another type of existence on this earth, then do so, but don't try to foist yourselves on the rest of us in order to feel that you are normal, religious, etc. It won't happen!
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Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:10 PM By JLS
Behind the depraved behavior of the gay agenda lie souls whose consciences have been annealed by sin and flap madly like three sheets to the wind. These uncorked power genies want to rule us. Are we going to allow them to do so? They intend to pervert children, conforming their character to the hodgepodge found in demonland. They mangle them before birth and distort them afterwards. They propose with or without our wills to rule us. Will we allow them to do so?
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Posted Friday, July 10, 2009 11:27 AM By Tyler
Bigotry like this is why I'm no longer a practicing Catholic.
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Posted Friday, July 10, 2009 12:41 PM By Brother Sean
God bless Mark Leno!
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Posted Friday, July 10, 2009 2:44 PM By Gregorian
Yes, Sean, may God bless Mark Leno with the understanding that he is furthering Satan's agenda in the world.
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Posted Friday, July 10, 2009 3:36 PM By Mark from PA
What can we do to get you back, Tyler?
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Posted Friday, July 10, 2009 5:46 PM By Richard Flores
Prop 8 is NOT about bashing gays, t is about the sanctity of marriage! Gay unions are a separate issue! MOST reasonable gays agree with this position once it is explained properly! Originally, there were two, separate ceremonies, one religious and one civil! (In many countries there still are two ceremonies!) Prop 8 was NOT intended to keep gays from CIVIL rights. It was purely to protect the religious aspect! Too many gay extremists are using it to beat drums of conflict as opposed to actually obtain legal rights for gay unions! That hurts everyone and accomplishes nothing but problems for gays!
God does NOT accept man's negotiation for His values. If someone rejects God's laws, then he will meet His fate in the end. It's that simple! There is plenty of space for gays in heaven, as long as they comply with God's laws. God is NO respecter of persons! We ALL follow the SAME laws/behavior restraints.
The real problem is that the church has been too nice and accepting of people who claim to be Catholic, but, in fact, are NOT in God's eyes! The church needs to be definitive about what it means to be Catholic, followers of Christ, and give everyone the opportunity to decide if they are willing to commit to God's laws and pick up their cross! If NOT, the church must excommunicate anyone that violates God's laws while claiming to be Catholic! ALL of the politicians that publicly support abortion...change or leave God's church. We NEED God! It's NOT the other way around! If a person rejects God, who loses? For the church leadership to water down God's laws and imply that heretics and blasphemer are "practicing Catholics" is a disservice to everyone as they will get the "bad news" when they die! "I know you NOT!"...
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Posted Friday, July 10, 2009 6:17 PM By JLS
Brother Sean, God did bless Mark Leno, but Mark rejected the blessing.
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Posted Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:52 AM By RR
Mark from PA: Tyler left because he didn't want to obey God's laws. The only thing that will truly bring him back is God's grace, and he is going to have to choose to give up his sins in order for that to happen.
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Posted Saturday, July 11, 2009 3:04 PM By Catholic fan
The voters passed the Amendment and a few in our legislature fail to recognize the results of the last election. As for so-called Catholics who oppose Prop 8, let's close the cafeteria now. A smaller, more devout church is better than a watered down version of Jesus's teachings. You'll no doubt be welcomed in many places that won't mind changing its beliefs according to the current political winds. May the Church remain strong as it has for 2,000 years!
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:22 AM By Mark from PA
"Does anyone know what goes on in such a home?" Diane, they probably do laundry, make dinner, do dishes, sweep, dust, clean the bathroom, make the beds, etc., just like everyone else does. You refer to people as S******** but many heterosexual people do such things also. Do you think that these straight Catholics should walk away from Catholicism also? Why should people walk away from the Church just because they are not chaste and pure and perfect? How can the Church expect the laity to be perfect when its leaders aren't all that perfect? We are all dependent on God's mercy.
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:50 PM By Mark from PA
RR, you said, "he is going to have to choose to give up his sins." What do you know of Tyler's sins? It is not a sin to be upset by prejudice and discrimination.
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:58 PM By JLS
PA, many heterosexual people also rob banks and murder people, but that does not excuse homosexual behavior, does it. The logic you contine to push forward is the same, in that you always say that because heterosexual people commit sexual sins, the homosexual behavior is ok. Once again, are you not the one who was educated in twelve years of Catholic school? If so, please tell us something Catholic that you know.
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 2:06 PM By Grisha
RR: Your making a MASSIVE judgement about Tyler based on 11 words he wrote. A bit premature don't you think?
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 3:24 PM By Carla
Prop 8 was not about the "sanctity of marriage". That's just the sales pitch used to sell Prop 8. The reality is that Prop 8 was about a civil arrangement which is spelled "marriage" which has no more "sanctity" or "religious aspect" than a mortgage or a corporate filing. Both before and after Prop 8, two people can sign that piece of paper that doesn't require any religion, sex act, sexual attraction or interest in children whatsoever. The two people can be raving atheists who utterly hate God and children, live separately, be sterilized to the max and each have wild sex parties with hundreds of people every weekend. By law, they can even get married and unmarried every 24 hours if they want. But by golly, because of that piece of paper and specifically because of the word "marriage", they receive tax deductions, health insurance options and other benefits and protections that even the most devout celibate same sex couples can't receive under federal law. Where's the "sanctity" of that?
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:01 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Yes, SOME heterosexuals commit the same sexual sins as homosexuals. This sins are MORTAL SINS no matter who commits them( gay, staight, ....). I don't think they should leave the Church, but these straight, gay, ... Catholics should walk away from the Sacraments until they repent of their sins and "GO AND SIN NO MORE" by going to Confession and making a firm purpose of ammendment. Not everybody is chaste, pure, or perfect, but that isn't an excuse to choose to sin and continue in your sins. That is what the Sacrament of Confession is for. It is for us to tell God were sorry and we will try to do better because we do not want to offend Him anymore. The Church does not expect the laity to be perfect. The Church does expect you to examine your conscience, admit your sins to God, confess your sins to God, and tell God you will try to do better to not offend Him no more and not make the excuse that you can commit these sins because you are not perfect. God will not show His mercy on sinners who know what they are doing is wrong, choose to live in sin, know it is against the Catholic Church, defy Church laws, and try and change Church laws to accept their mortal sins and lifestyle. He will show His wrath!
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Posted Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:04 PM By Mark from PA
Catholic fan, what is it with people that want a smaller Church? I am somewhat annoyed by those that want people that they dislike out of the Church. It seems that some people just want people that look like them and think like them and act like them in the Church. What kind of Catholicism is that?
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 10:34 AM By RR
Mark from PA: One sin of Tylers I know for sure he is committing is that of condemning Catholic Church and teachings, which is apostacy. Church teaching is homosexual sexual acts are mortal sins. He is accusing the Catholic Church of prejudice and discrimination, yet another sin. It is not a sin to be upset about prejudice and discrimination, but mortal sins of homosexual sexual acts have nothing to do with prejudice or discrimination. They are plain out sins. Supporting homosexual sexual sins is also a sin. If you were against Prop 8 then you support homosexual acts, which is a sin. Tyler minimumly has separated himself from the Church by his own statement here. Only God's grace can help him.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 10:35 AM By RR
Mark from PA: One sin of Tylers I know for sure he is committing is that of condemning Catholic Church and teachings, which is apostacy. Church teaching is homosexual sexual acts are mortal sins. He is accusing the Catholic Church of prejudice and discrimination, yet another sin. It is not a sin to be upset about prejudice and discrimination, but mortal sins of homosexual sexual acts have nothing to do with prejudice or discrimination. They are plain out sins. Supporting homosexual sexual sins is also a sin. If you were against Prop 8 then you support homosexual acts, which is a sin. Tyler minimumly has separated himself from the Church by his own statement here. Only God's grace can help him.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 10:42 AM By RR
Grisha: A MASSIVE Judgement? I don't think so. A bit premature? I don't think so. Come on, Grisha! What do you think he meant by that statement? He disowned the Church because the Church won't accept homosexual acts either committed by him or any ACTIVE homosexual. Either way, it is a sin to accept or condone homosexual sex acts. That is a sin. Only God's grace will help him.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 12:23 PM By JLS
Carla, Prop 8 was a move to keep gays from further destroying civilization.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 12:31 PM By JLS
PA, Jesus did not come to include everyone in some grandiose church, but to include and exclude. Your knowledge of Church history and purpose is approximately zero. All you utter is the gay agenda, and a little pitch now and then against abortion and child abuse. Both abortion and child abuse can be understood by the natural mind and do not need divine revelation to comprehend. But the gay agenda moves into the spiritual realm where divine revelation operates. This reveals, PA, that your main objective riles against divine revelation. And you say you are Catholic because you receive Holy Communion? The devil it was who assumed in his conversation with Jesus, who had just emerged from 40 days in the desert, that he was the lord over Jesus. Do you see the similarity? One who preaches against divine revelation yet claims to be Catholic? All your supposed Catholicism is what you feel; it is the same with the devil, who feels through his embodiment among humans. It is his perverse way of "becoming man" out of his envy of God, who actually has become man.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 1:40 PM By Canisius
TO RR dont waste your breath on Grisha and Mark PA, they are habitual progressives. Neither of them can recognize truth or tell sin from virtue. They want sodomy to sanctified so they feel better about themselves and they demand that the rest of us accept it. However it is good that you challenge them progressives have to be confronted, I dont like them or what they represent
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 3:36 PM By Anne T.
Well, if you all remember correctly, the Lord Jesus Christ whipped a few people out of the Temple area. That sounds as if he did not want everyone there. In fact, it sounds to me as if he might have wanted a "smaller" Church--at least til some truly repented.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 3:38 PM By Mark from PA
RR, why is complaining about bigotry considered apostacy? I agree with Grisha here. Tyler wrote 11 words and some here are accusing him of committing sins. This is amazing. Sad, sad, sad.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 3:52 PM By Anne T.
And we all know, they did not all repent. Those were the ones who conspired to get him crucified.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 4:16 PM By Ed Garber
RR, contrary to your post, the Church does not teach that homosexual acts are mortal sins. The Church teaches that "tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." Instrinsically disordered and mortal sin are not the same. Intrinsically disordered acts are only mortal sins if the person engages in them with full knowledge and full consent, and it is not Church teaching that persons always engage in homosexual acts with full knowledge and full consent, no matter how much you might insist that they do. The Church does not grant you the authority to claim otherwise. Some homosexual acts might be mortal sins and some might not be.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 4:21 PM By Grisha
RR: I think Tyler was objecting to the sin against charity he thinks he sometimes sees in postings here. There is nothing wrong with that.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 6:08 PM By Canisius
Ah more homo-speak from Ed Garber. What Catechism are you reading. Sex is for procreation, sodomites cannot procreate period anything outside of that including sodomy is a Mortal Sin. It is people like you who confuse the ill-informed, you are, just by posting your nonsense causing scandal. Homosexual Acts Are a Mortal Sin... Period deal with it.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 6:56 PM By Ed Garber
Canisius, you might try reading CCC#1859 which teaches that "Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent." The Church does not teach that all homosexual acts are committed with "full knowledge and complete consent". To the contrary, the CDF declared, "in sins of the sexual order, in view of their kind and their causes, it more easily happens that free consent is not fully given; this is a fact which calls for caution in all judgment as to the subject's responsibility." In addition, the Church teaches in CCC#1735, "Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors." Again, the Church does not teach that all homosexual acts are mortal sins. Instead, some homosexual acts may be mortal sins, some may be venial sins, and some may not even be sins at all. This is Church teaching.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 7:02 PM By Anne T.
Every Catholic prayerbook, missal and cathechism I have in the explanation, or the examination of conscience, tells or asks under the Sixth Commandment, whether one has sinned sexual by oneself, with a married person, with an unmarried person or with someone of the same sex. I take that to mean that, unless someone has put a gun to my head and threatened to kill me, all such things are mortal sin. Now a teenager might not have the maturity to know the difference and therefore have lesser guilt, but we are supposedly all adults here. We have all sinned, myself included, during our lifetimes, but some of us do not sit here and pretend that it was just "hunky dory" to do so, and that it never hurt anyone, including ourselves, nor do we advise others to do the same. The rest do encourage mortally sinful behavior and make excuses for it.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 7:30 PM By Mark from PA
Canisius, Ed Garber is correct. You may not agree but these are the teachings of the Church. I never said here that I wanted sodomy sanctified. As Ed Garber stated some of these acts might be mortal sins and some might not be. Some acts are criminal. I totally condemn sexual abuse whether it be same sex or opposite sex. In some instances I am more conservative in this than some of the leaders of the Church.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 7:39 PM By RR
Ed Garber: Tell that to Sodom & Gomorrah! Also, the Church doesn't grant you the authority to claim that homosexual sexual acts aren't mortal sins either. Let me clarify something to you that you acuse me of. I NEVER said all homosexual sexual acts are mortal sins. What I have said (and it IS Church teaching) is that homosexual sexual acts ARE MORTAL sins if the three following critereia are met: 1. You have to know it is a sin, 2. it has to be serious, 3. you have to have full consent of the will. Let's face it, Ed. The vast majority of ACTIVE homosexuals know it is a serious offense, have knowledge that it is a sin, and give full consent of the will, thus making their homosexual sex acts mortal sins. The vast majority thumb thier noses at the Church and try and get others to accept their mortal sins. So stop making excuses for ACTIVE homosexuals to commit their lustful, deviant, disgusting sins. Sorry, Ed. The Church teaching is that homosexual acts are a grave matter and if the three criteria are met the sin IS MORTAL. Every homosexual act is a mortal sin unless someone is a victim, insane, doesn't know any better, or cannot mentally make a decision.
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 7:48 PM By RR
Mark from PA: "why is complaining about bigotry considered apostacy?" Because there is NO bigotry here. It IS Catholic Church teaching. In the statement I just quoted you on you are accusing the Catholic Church of bigotry. You are saying that the Catholic Church is bigotted because It will not accept or condone homosexual sexaul acts. SAD, SAD, SAD
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 7:59 PM By RR
Grisha: Tyler apparently didn't have much faith to begin with then. People will use any reason to leave the Church just because their poor, little feelings get hurt because they can't have, do, or feel what they want to. There are few sins against charity here in these postings. Most here are true Catholics who are being charitable in letting people know the truth and to keep dissenters from TRYING to destoy God's Church. THE TRUTH HURTS! As Canisius says, "Deal with it." As I say, "God's will be done. NOT my will be done."
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 9:00 PM By Ed Garber
Canisius, to add in regard to procreation, homosexuality is very similar to masturbation, and Church teaching on the morality of homosexual acts is very similar to the teaching on masturbation. In CCC#2357, she teaches that "tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” and calls them “acts of grave depravity.” To compare, in CCC#2352, she teaches “in the course of a constant tradition… masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." The Catechism goes on to say “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” In short, though homosexuality and masturbation are described as intrinsically disordered and importantly, as grave acts, and though as grave acts that may satisfy one of three criteria for mortal sin (i.e. that its object is grave matter), that does not establish that the person has met the other two criteria for mortal sin, namely, “full knowledge” and “complete consent” (CCC#1859). Rather, “full knowledge” and “complete consent” are subjective factors that can vary according to the person and circumstances, and the Church thus teaches in CCC#1861, “although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.” Finally, on your claim that I’m giving scandal, I remind you that the Church teaches that “Jesus gave scandal above all when he identified his merciful conduct toward sinners with God's own attitude toward them.” (CCC#589)
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Posted Monday, July 13, 2009 9:08 PM By JLS
The Church has always taught that homosexual acts are sins. The one committing the act might be less than culpable or less than consenting ... but the act is a sin, always. Ed, if you are wondering, then you know. If you are discussing it, then you realize it. Some sins are more subtle than others, but homosexual acts are not subtle. They attack nature itself, which can be felt by all in attendance.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 12:36 AM By Ron
I met Mark Leno in the basement of the Most Holy Redeemer church last year at a gay event I was documenting. The same church I photographed the Bishop giving Holy Communion to members of a group who’s very motto is “Go and sin some more”. It’s no surprise to me the Bishop is deafly silent on this issue.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 1:08 AM By Benedict III
All homosexual acts are mortal sins to the degree the persons have the use of reason. And yes, they are disordered.
As to seminaries being a hot bed for homo men. There are , I am told, many homos who do enter the seminary, but mostly for fun, and dating purposes. The large majority never get ordained, as they often drop out. It is almost impossible to rid the priesthood of homosexual men. Rome had a huge problem with this very issue in 1100 A.D ! At best, it can be confined to small numbers.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 7:23 AM By Grisha
Canusis - Thank you for rethinking and revising your post of Monday @ 1:40.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:28 AM By MarkF
Ed Garber, what you're saying about some homosexual acts being a mortal sin and some not being a mortal sin does not just pertain to homosexual acts but to all sin. So, one could just as easily say that not all murders are mortal sins, and not all abortions are mortal sins, and not all child molestations are mortal sins. And in fact this is true. But what have we gained by saying that? Does any of this make murder or child abuse acceptable? What I'm afraid you're arguing for is for the acceptance of homosexual acts based on a certain agnosticism about the state of a person's conscience. What you want to do is to move from saying that since we don't have certainty of knowing if a certain homosexual act is a mortal sin or not, then we can say that homosexual acts are to be allowed. This is not what the Church teaches. You want to avoid the necessary conclusion that since none of know the state of another person's conscience, that we cannot tell if murder, rape or theft is a sin either. But you don't seem to apply that same agnosticism to these acts, just to homosexual acts. Why is that? By your reasoning, if we are to teach that since not all homosexual acts are mortal sins, or even venial sins, and based on this that they should be allowed or even encouraged, we should also teach that same thing about all other actions - murder, rape, child abuse, lying, etc. Read what the catechism says about homosexual acts, that "under no circumstances can they be approved."
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:38 AM By MarkF
Grisha, but isn't there more going on than just a certain course tone of the conversation? Don't you think that beneath the cries for toleration is a deep seated desire to change what the Church has always taught for two thousand years? And frankly, while I will say that some people go over the top, I also see that just a simple statement that homosexuality is wrong will get you labeled as "bigoted" and a "hater." And isn't it also true that homosexual acts as a lifestyle is so destructive that it is understandable that some people get upset? It is far to easy just to stifle debate and to silence all opposition to homosexuality by invoking those words. If one side is called upon to speak more calmly, then isn't the other side also called to be honest and to state openly and clearly their agenda, which has nothing to do with just being nice but rather is to change the Church from within and to promote homosexuality and homosexual acts? This very sneakiness, on here and in the Church as a whole is what contributes to making people mad.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:04 PM By Ed Garber
RR, it is not Church teaching that "the vast majority of active homosexuals know it is a serious offense, have knowledge that it is a sin, and give full consent of the will." If that is your opinion, that is your opinion, but it is NOT Church teaching. I neither know nor presume such a thing, nor do I have good reason to. No one (but God) has met or even identified the "vast majority" of homosexual persons, much less have reliable access to even one other person's private conscience. As the CDF declared, "in sins of the sexual order, in view of their kind and their causes, it more easily happens that free consent is not fully given; this is a fact which calls for caution in all judgment as to the subject's responsibility." The Church teaches that a wide range of conditions can limit a person's knowledge and/or his consent. That is not "making excuses for active homosexuals." It is Church teaching, which I offered in direct response to the falsehood you posted. Had you not posted your falsehood, I would not have posted the correction to it. I've rendered no judgment on any active homosexual person one way or the other. I neither claim he's not guilty nor do I condemn him. To the contrary, I abide by Church teaching that "although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God." That is Church teaching. And, I note, your attempts to change your tune have not escaped my attention. Your original unconditioned claim that homosexual acts are mortal sin was a falsehood. That you've subsequently amended it by your admission that there are three conditions for mortal sin is an improvement but does not eliminate the fact that without the conditions being met, the claim is a falsehood. The Church teaches that the three conditions are not always met, and thus homosexual acts are not always mortal sin.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:08 PM By Ed Garber
MarkF, what you call "agnosticism" is either Church teaching or your own misunderstanding. You say I "don't seem to apply" Church teaching to murder, rape or theft, and you ask "Why is that?", but if you hadn't noticed, the subject article is not about murder, rape or theft. Rather, I was responding to RR's claim which he made specific to homosexual acts. RR didn't post that grave acts in general are mortal sins. Why aren't you questioning him about that? Had he made that mistake, I would have addressed grave acts in general. In addition, the Church distinguishes between "sins of the sexual order" and other sins in regard to culpability, as I've shown you with the CDF's statement of fact, so it's not inappropriate to do so. Further, there is nothing in my posts which even suggests that "we should encourage" sinning. If that's what you think I said somewhere, that's your own misunderstanding. And as to whether any sin should be "allowed", the Church teaches that God permts people to sin because he respects their freedom. Likewise, I respect your freedom, and God permits you to post falsehoods and to persist in self-deception. Your behavior might not be good for your soul, but the Church teaches that God can derive good from it nonetheless. Of course, I'm happy to help you with your misunderstandings, but I will "allow" you to persist if that is your choice. Just as God won't force you against your will, neither will I.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 6:57 PM By RR
Ed Garber: I did NOT attempt to change my tune. I clarified FURTHER a statement that I made. When I originally said that all homosexual sins are mortal, I was talking about the ACTIVE homosexuals who know darn well what they are doing is wrong and that all three criteria are met and they still thumb their noses at the Church. In future posts if I ever make the statement again about all homosexual acts being mortal sins, know that I am talking about ACTIVE homosexuals who meet the 3 criteria for a sin to be mortal. Sometimes statements need to be clarified, not changing tune or amended, because there are new posters to this site every day. I've only seen you post a couple of times, so I assume you are new here. People on here have seen me write that statement hundreds of times and I'm sure they know what I mean. Once again, Ed, stop making excuses for ACTIVE homosexuals to commit their lustful, deviant, disgusting sins.
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Posted Tuesday, July 14, 2009 7:01 PM By RR
Ed Garber: I forgot to ask you: What is the CDF?
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:10 AM By MarkF
Ed Garber, so what's your real point? Everything you said is true about not knowing the state of another person's conscience is true, but it is also just as true with regard to every other sin that people do. But yet you only focus on homosexual acts. Why? What is your point? My point here is that I'm afraid that what you're close to doing is being very hypocritical. I don't know you and I don't want to make this personal, so I will leave you out of this and instead talk about the pro-homosexual movement as a whole, which seeks to redefine sin, and seeks to call those of us who oppose homosexual behavior as the real sinners. Look at Luke 18, the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The parable contrasts those who proudly maintain that they are so pure, the Pharisee, with the tax collector who begs for God's mercy because he knows that he is a sinner. Now any and all of us could be that Pharisee, and certainly some of us could be that Pharisee if we demonize people who are trapped in homosexuality, or in the actual case of the tax collector, people who are trapped in a life of greed. The parable applies to any and all sins really. But what makes those of us with traditional beliefs so upset is that what the homosexual movement is doing is to try to turn all of the "tax collectors" out there who are tempted to homosexual acts from repentant sinners to proud Pharisees. This is the real point. The state of a person's conscience, as you are trying to argue about, is a side issue at best. What the homosexual movement wants to do - and I hope that you're not trying to do this as well - is not to just ask for mercy for people with same-sex attraction, but to make them into proud Pharisees who don't recognize their own sin, but who instead want to cast stones at us. All of us can become that proud Pharisee. But what the homosexual movement wants to do is to make people with same-sex attraction proud of their behavior, instead of asking for mercy.
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:03 AM By Canisius
Ah yes Mr. Garber I can always count a liberal to compare himself to Christ. You are doing your best to confuse and undermine but its not working. We know the sodomite community fully consents to their immorality, take a look at any of their depraved parades and celebrations, tell me they are not willing going along with such trash. And unlike you and rest of the weak progressives on this page, I will judge them and take my chances. They mock my Church and my Faith, they have desecrated my Church's (ACTUP Group in 1980's desecrated St Pat's Cathedral during Mass). You can sit their and say "dont judge" but I will and I will respond with violence if necessary, to defend my Church to the death. I thank God people like you did not exist during the battle of Tours. I can only pray the future of the Church does not include people like you Grisha or Mark from PA
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:51 AM By Canisius
Mr. Garber it is people like you, Grisha and Mark PA that make me hope for a long and bloody civil war in which the entire progressive structure (media, universities etc) in this country is completely eradicated and eliminated.
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:56 PM By Ed Garber
RR, the CDF is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the oldest of the nine congregations of the Roman Curia. Its duty is to promote and safeguard the doctrine on the faith and morals throughout the Catholic world.
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 6:47 PM By Ed Garber
MarkF, you speak of people who "don’t recognize their own sin" and say it’s important for people to recognize their sin, but you contradict yourself by claiming "the state of a person's conscience… is a side issue at best." To the contrary, the state of a person’s conscience is central to a person recognizing his sins. As the Church teaches, "Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed… It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law." You can spend your life obsessing over your "homosexual movement", or you can "hand them over to their undiscerning minds to do what is improper" as God did with the people in Romans 1. That allowed St. Paul in Romans 2 to immediately return attention back to "you, the judge." The story about the tax collector and the Pharisee that you've mentioned makes the same point, directly back to oneself. But the Pharisee claimed he was not like other men. He said, "God, I thank you that I am not like other men". You too claimed to be not like the other men when you said, "what makes those of us with traditional beliefs so upset...". I'm sure the Pharisees were upset too.
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:24 PM By Ed Garber
Canisius, no one can mock your faith more than yourself. You say, “We know the sodomite community fully consents to their immorality,” but who is that? St, Clement of Alexandria (The Instructor, ca. A.D. 193) wrote that the Sodomites "through much luxury, [had] fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly." Thus they were a luxury community of married, overtly heterosexual people who practiced adultery shamelessly. Of course, we know these married people did other things too. Do you know of communities of married people like that?
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:46 PM By Mark from PA
A long and bloody civil war? So if all the gays and progressives are eradicated and eliminated then you will be satisfied, Canisius? You will respond with violence? You can pray that the future of the Church does not include people like Ed Garber or Grisha or me? It is our Church too. I know that some would like all gays out of the Church but they are in the minority. Many are accepting.
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:11 PM By JLS
Canisius, if you were a pointer, I'd say "whoa", if a flusher, I'd say "stay". Although you see it, check out what Garber says about "people who are trapped in homosexuality": What they are doing is setting a snare, a pitfall so as to lure those who fight God's fight into a trap. Have you ever dealt close up with a homosexualist? Notice how Garber is using "demonize" as if it is simply some sort of a label put on wicked people ... beware those of you who have not seen it close up. The Letters to two of the Seven churches of the Apocalypse warn of the grave danger of delving into things of Satan. But here one with eyes to see can see the deception that has riled up Canisius. The devil does not follow rules, it is not a two sided contest of chivalry, but a far more consequent event. St Paul instructs us carefully and thoroughly in the nature of spiritual warfare and how to gain the victory in it. Remember that not all homosexuals run from what they fear, but encourage their own defeat. We must always and at any moment declare our loyalty to Christ, for the devil never rests even though we do. As all the angels in Heaven rejoice over each victory in Christ, so they come to the aid of any who call. To God be the glory, and vengeance is the Lord's: There is a time and place for when plowshares shall be turned into swords and when swords into plowshares. Any jock knows the tactic of throwing your opponent off balance and out of sync. Is there anything in Garber's pitch that I haven't addressed?
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Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:22 PM By JLS
St Paul teaches us that sex with multiple partners is like knowing intimately many people. It is God's will that only one man and one woman know each other in such an intimate manner, and that they are "one". But adultry makes many into one. So guess what homosexuality does in this regard, but it provides many men with the knowledge of and unity with countless other men in a way that is not meant to be. This is how they gain power over populations ... The perversions allow them to find all kinds of marketing strategies to promote concupiscence and thus transform a population into an easily manipulateable mess of guilt ridden immoral souls, networked together in a global village of adultry and idolatry. Isn't this what is happening to western society? What a prize, then, for the power driven homosexual cadres who give up the essense of human dignity for what? For Wales? No, for the devil's domain, which is a much bigger proposition than Wales (this is a take off on something St Thomas More said to his betrayer).
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Posted Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:10 AM By Ed Garber
JLS, can "one with eyes to see" not distinguish between MarkF and Garber? You say "check out what Garber says about 'people who are trapped in homosexuality'" and "notice how Garber is using 'demonize'". But those quotes come from MarkF's post, not mine. It is MarkF who wrote "if we demonize people who are trapped in homosexuality." Thus, please give proper credit to your alleged "homosexualist" who is "setting a snare, a pitfall so as to lure those who fight God's fight into a trap." Also, in English, the term "demonize" generally refers to any characterization of individuals, groups, or political bodies as evil. That is how I read MarkF's use of the word "demonize", not as some act of "grave danger of delving into things of Satan." Remember, to be "one with eyes to see" is of little use if one's eyes are not open to seeing.
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Posted Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:50 AM By Canisius
Wrong Mr. Garber I never mock my Faith or Church I am loyal to it, unto Death. You deny the truth of what the sodomites do, and try to reconcile it to your version of what you want the Truth to be. What you dont seem to realize is that adulterers are not parading themselves down avenues demanding "acceptance". When an adulterer falls into that particular sin, it is usually done on the sly, hidden, and quiet. Sodomites on the other hand boast of their depravity and want everyone else to accept it.
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Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 1:55 AM By Catholic fan
Ed Garber, what's your point in quoting the CDF and clarifying the Church's teaching on sin and a person's state of conscience when Mark F., JLS and Canisuis are clearly stating that homosexuality as we know it today through their group political activism, our popular culture's embrace of their agenda via the mass media, and their blatant attacks against our Mother Church that includes receiving communion at Mass dressed in Drag and obviously not in a state of Grace to receive the Eucharist? You quibble over semantics and the details of his posts! Have you lived amongst Gays and been the recipient of their outlandish behavior and beliefs imposed upon heterosexuals? Who are you supporting by your efforts? On the contrary, let's see you apply your argumentative skills to support the Church's stance against the Gay lifestyle. Also, Thomas Edward Miles and Brother Sean obviously miss the Catholic church's teaching on the sacrament of marriage by stating their support of Mark Leno, hence should be altogether ignored on a Catholic Blog.
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Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:30 PM By Ed Garber
"Catholic fan", politics and popular culture do not permit you to judge the state of another's soul. Again, "although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God." (CCC#1781) If you prefer the words of Pope John Paul II, “The judgment of one's state of grace obviously belongs only to the person involved, since it is a question of examining one's conscience.” In the words of then Archbishop Burke, when a minister excludes certain people from receiving Holy Communion at Mass, “The exercise of such discretion is not a judgment on the subjective state of the soul of the person approaching to receive Holy Communion, but a judgment regarding the objective condition of serious sin in a person who, after due admonition from his pastor, persists in cooperating formally with intrinsically evil acts.” It is entirely possible that people who are told "no" when they approach to receive Holy Communion are in reality in a state of grace. I'm well aware of how some persons behave, but I do not know the state of their souls, and I will not engage in unjust discrimination against all people in a class because of the behavior of some. As your own post has missed the Church's teaching, and if it were true as you claim that posters who "miss the Catholic Church's teaching... should be altogether ignored on a Catholic blog", then why should you not be ignored? I respond to your post, with appropriate correction, rather than ignore it because, in turn, I would like appropriate correction to my posts were I to post in error. Your post has failed to correct what I've said, but it has given you an opportunity to examine what you believe in the light of truth. May you as may we all make the most of it.
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 12:53 AM By rosostrov.ru
Thank you very much for that great article
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 4:18 PM By prizebig.ru
Thanks.what a lengthy and in depth article but full of useful information
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:58 PM By JLS
ru: Keep tuned.
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 8:56 AM By tennis betting system
I hope this was a very interesting post thanks for writing it!
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:40 AM By 7ly.ru
What's the speed of dark?
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:25 AM By JLS
ru, when all else fails, read the instructions.
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:10 PM By The Truth Hurts
JLS, The smoke of Satan knows what the speed of dark is. When it is Willed...The Light can stop a bullet train of darkness in an instant!
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 1:12 PM By JLS
This or these "ru" characters have posted on old threads before. I think "dot ru" is Russia". They say stuff that makes little sense. I assumed "speed of dark" was merely some stab at some new fad in thinking about astrophysics or sci fi stuff. So, now we find out that the "speed of dark" is a satanic term? That would explain the confused language of other "ru" posts ... I can usually decipher poor grammar by non native speakers of English, but these "ru" posts are different ... not even really insanity jargon either. Having read a little bit and heard a little bit by the late Malachi Martin and a couple other bonified Catholic authorities on satanic stuff, this "ru" diatribe looks possibly to be in the category of evil jargon ... Is that what you are getting at, The Truth Hurts? Such stuff does not bother me too much, as I emerged through dense concentrations of satanic forces in my journey into the light of Christ. Yes, it is there; it is real, it is dangerous, it is evil, it destroys bodies, minds, hearts and souls ... but for the willing person with even the least faith in God, Jesus will give that soul the power and authority (whether they know it at the time or not) to, as it were, walk on water (symbolically meaning in this case to be lifted up to God on the shoulders of the Church and out of grave spiritual danger). The fools of satan who point a finger at the Church forget that their other three fingers are pointing back at themselves, thus multiplying the curses onto themselves. But even these souls can drop to their knees or on their faces before the Lord God Almighty and pray and be saved from their damnation. If "dot ru" is from Russia, then let them or him or her realize that they are tapping into something related to Our Lady of Fatima who has spoken specifically about the errors of Russia and what to do about it.
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Posted Friday, February 05, 2010 5:27 PM By High School
Money making ideas for girls raising money for our church?
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Posted Friday, February 05, 2010 7:32 PM By JLS
Bake sale. Wash cars. Clean houses.
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