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Published: November 26, 2008
“We have watched with great distress”
U.S. bishops express support, solidarity with Mormons over attacks by foes of Prop. 8
News from U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
Nov. 25, 2008
For immediate release
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- U.S. bishops have offered "prayerful support and steadfast solidarity" to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the face of attacks on the church and its members for working to pass California's Proposition 8, which bans same-sex marriage.
The support was offered in a Nov. 21 letter from Archbishop Joseph E. Kurtz, chairman of the bishops' Ad Hoc Committee for the Defense of Marriage, to Thomas S. Monson, president of the Mormon Church.
The letter follows:
Dear President Monson,
 On behalf of the members of the Ad Hoc Committee for the Defense of Marriage of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, I am writing to express prayerful support and steadfast solidarity with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members in view of recent events.
We have watched with great distress in recent weeks as some members of society have reacted intemperately, and sometimes even violently, to the decision of the voters in support of Proposition 8 in California. We have been especially troubled by the reports of explicit and direct targeting of your church personnel and facilities as the objects of hostility and abuse. We pray that prudence and healing may prevail.
The members of the Committee offer you our profound gratitude for your role in the broad alliance of faith communities and other people of good will who joined together to protect marriage, while at the same time, witnessing to the honor and respect due to every human person created in the image and likeness of God.
Fraternally yours in Christ,
Joseph E. Kurtz, Archbishop of Louisville
Chairman, Ad Hoc Committee for the Defense of Marriage
Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:10 AM By Charles O'Connell
A strong strain in American Catholicism, the Irish, has a commonality with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in that persecution was the foundational experience of both groups. Murderous oppression against the LDS in the American mid-west gave them the impetus to emigrate. In the 17th century, the Irish were given the choice to convert to the established religion of the English conquerors, or take their families and get out on the roads. The experience of oppression that the democratic electors of California have recently undergone, turns on its head the homosexualist movement's fundamental self-identity: Anyone who opposes them portrayed as ' an oppressor'. When (not if) they try to overturn Proposition 8, the managers of our side's campaign ought to make very good use of the video imagery that is now being generated, of homosexualist intolerance and persecution of Catholics and Mormons.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:28 AM By HiveRadical
Marriage and Family are, perchance, the most fitting common ground on which to stand together with all the many great faiths of the world.
As a Latter-day Saint (Mormon) the support of Catholics, indeed of all who defend marriage, is one of the sweetest beams of hope.
With all the chaos of these times I pray we always remain united in protecting the foundation of humanity, one of the greatest of God's gifts, the family.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:17 AM By Fr. M.P.
Tying into what truth exists in other religions is a good way to build bridges - with proper ecumenism - so that eventually the Mormons can find their way into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which possesses the fullness of Truth.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:27 AM By St. Christopher
This is nice, but the Catholic bishops simply must be more front and center about abortion, and about the Catholic faith, in general. We are not Mormons. While a sense of solidarity and support are beneficial when seeking a common goal, the bishops have completely failed to take on the pro-gay media and other messengers of evil about homosexual marriage and adoption, and other sinful activities.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:01 AM By UVA Fan
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I am grateful for your willingness to stand up in unity in defense of our religious freedoms and for your tremendous support of traditional marriage.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:03 AM By Ron
Bravo!
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:15 AM By Al Woods
As a practicing LDS, I thank you and am grateful for your support in this very important cause. We respect everyones difference in beliefs but when it comes to violence, that crosses the line.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:33 AM By Richard C Bybee
Thank you, Bishop Kurtz, for your kind expression of solidarity and gratitude to Pres. Monson, whom we Latter-day Saints revere as a Prophet, and who directs the affairs of our Church. It is indeed heart-warming to know that other members of the faith community supported the "Yes on 8" and that we Mormons were not alone in this effort. I am aware that Catholics also supported this effort with their time, efforts and money, and I am confident the Lord of us all will bless you for your valiant defense of marriage.
Sincerely, Richard Bybee, South Jordan, Utah
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:35 AM By Fulminator Ski Ven
The victims of homosexual fascists do deserve our support.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:48 AM By Edwin Slack
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) I want to thank you for you support and kind words. No, I'm not any high official in the Church, just an average member, but your words of support and comfort bring gratitude in this holiday season. Sometimes it seems our country is on a roller coaster intent on seeing just what heights of folly we can achieve and what lows of immorality we can sink to. The family seems to be under constant attack. It is good to know that there are other people of faith with whom we can join to withstand the assault of sin.
Thank you again
Edwin Slack
LDS member
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:06 AM By Paul
These words are greatly appreciated by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are greatful for the unity we feel with our fellow Christians in defending traditional marriage.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:07 AM By Jon
I think it is wonderful that people from various religions worked together to pass this. Churches should continue to work together.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:46 AM By Anne T.
Praises for these good bishops and others who support the Mormons' position for Proposition 8. As someone once said, "If one does not stand for something, one falls for anything."
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:47 AM By ann
I live in Arizona where there are many Mormons. Our old Irish pastor kept asking for volunteers for CCD and was not getting a response. One Sunday Mass he said "if youse guy don't voluteer, I'm going to the Mormons. They know how to do things".
They have put us to shame again on a national issue this time.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:09 AM By Brad
This is possibly just one of many future attacks against people's beliefs. It has proven even a democratic election is not democratic enough. As a Mormon who stood on the sidelines, I will stand with you all on the next one.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:55 AM By john Zakharia
What is God thinking when he sees Catholics at my Santa Monica church against Prop 8 and Mormons for Prop 8 ?
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:48 AM By Chris C
How sad for the Catholic Church that their bishops can only sympathize with those that they already agree with on a single, legal issue. Where have the bishops' prayers and press releases been over the years for the gays, lesbians, and the children of gays and lesbians who are daily denied basic human legal protections, such as the right to visit their loved ones in the hospital, or who lose their homes whenn their loved ones die? Clearly, the bishops have not gotten their priorities in order. I suspect that Jesus would not have behaved as indifferently to actual human suffering. Perhapse this is why their Churches have been emptying for years.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:53 AM By Duane
Good men and women of virtue, integrity and civic responsibility will always stand together in times of stress caused by a minority group, while at the same time maintaining a respect for the individuals of the minority group. This is the case with Bishop Kurtz, his committee and the LDS Church members.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:55 AM By thrive
It is a sad irony that the bishops have found their voice on an issue that strips parishoners of their human and civil rights while, for decades, they turned a blind eye to the moral failings of so many priests. On both of these issues I think they have missed the point of Jesus' teachings.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:59 AM By Bud
Blaming the Mormons was indeed a very stupid and ignorant ploy by the rabid gay elements who are the bigots that they profess to hate and want to eliminate. Why they, like all cowards, targeted the Latter Day Saints is a mystery to me. They above all are one of the most charitable and worthwhile groups in this country while the Gay agenda caters only to their egotistic, self centered, Hollywood-Broadway mentality which supports them.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:21 AM By John M
I hope that this beautiful letter gets the maximum exposure. The letter expresses the love of Christ and genuine outreach to homosexual children of God by the Catholic Church. God bless you dear Bishpo Kurtz
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:33 AM By Eileen
This kind letter of support would not have been necessary if the majority of Bishops would have also been "just as distressed" about error that is being taught within their own Diocese for many years. Still, we are very grateful for defense of marriage from the LDS members. While alliances for goodness are important and necessary, something does not feel right. Shouldn't this situation be reversed? Why was the LDS church not writing the Catholic Church in gratitude and a sigh of relief for the greater strength of defense? I guess we know the answer to that one too. It looks like this might be another case of God writing straight with a crooked line.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:35 PM By Fulminator Ski Ven
Thrive, are you talking about the homosexual moral failings of priests?
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 PM By marc j belllm
In response to "chris C," trying to gain false sympathy for gays and lesbians is deceitful. You are not a catholic, but a gay activist. I wholly recommend you repent to our Lord. As far as "rights" go, your example of losing homes etc. it utterly ridiculous. NOBODY is denied the right to visit others in hospitals based on being gay. We are Christians, and you, like other homosexuals are living in sin. As Jesus, told the women caught in adultery, (another sexual sin comdemned in the Bible), "go and sin NO MORE."
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:49 PM By CJ
I would like to say I am sorry right now, to all Catholics for the persecution of my church against yours. Never has your church spoken ill of ours, yet many is the time I have barred anyone but a Mormon from employment, as is the custom of my church. The most loathed and feared being Catholics. I AM SO SORRY! I thank your bishops for their solidarity. No other church has come forward. Thank you! "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:18 PM By Fulminator Ski Ven
I just want to wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving. I won't be blogging here for a while. Enjoy the holiday.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 2:38 PM By Joan
I do not understand the statements made by Chris C, and often voiced by other gays and lesbians, that they are denied "the right to visit their loved ones in the hospital". I volunteered for years in the waiting room of a hospital ICU ward. Visitors were always allowed in to the patient's bedside if the patient so desired and there was no medical restriction at the time. (And, yes, some visitors identified themselves as "partners".)
There is no reason anyone cannot inherit a home if it has been legally willed to them. These are both contrived arguments on the part of homosexuals in order to claim victimhood. In California they already have all the civil rights granted to other citizens. Now they are demanding special rights.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 2:50 PM By Mark from PA
Chris C - in regard to your 10:48 post. Many bishops do not care about the GLBT community. They have sympathy for the Mormons but disdain for many in their own Church. I realize that the Mormons believe that homosexuality is a sin and gay people don't deserve equal rights but most Catholics don't believe this way in my opinion.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:47 PM By JLS
Chris C, your post typifies the style that assumes that the bishops are fairly represented by the media. The media, however, is hostile to the Church and Her clergy.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:57 PM By Mark from PA
John M, did you mean to say a genuine outreach to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? There is no outreach to homosexual children of God in this letter. This is a letter of support and solidarity with the Latter-Day Saints in their opposition to same sex marriage and homosexuals.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 4:56 PM By Gary
Thanks to all those who stood up for righteousness regardless of what the outcome has been. You have my deepest gratitude and respect. You're courage is admirable! We all need to stay united and fight against the powers of darkness. Keep up the good fight. May God be with us in this noble cause.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:23 PM By Dan Knudsen
Hurrah to the Catholic Church for standing up for what is right once again!
As an active “Mormon” I would like to correct some of what CJ said above: The “Mormon” church has never persecuted the Catholic Church; nor has it barred “Mormons” from hiring anyone except “Mormons”--that has never been the “custom” of the “Mormon” church; nor are Catholics the “most loathed and feared” by “Mormons” of all other churches. If CJ has “barred anyone but a Mormon from employment” he’s been going against what the “Mormon” church teaches and that’s been his own philosophy and walking orders.
Mark from PA: “...Mormons believe...gay people don't deserve equal rights...in my opinion” Your opinion is wrong on this point as the “Mormon” church has never stated that gay people don’t deserve equal rights. Your statement about “their opposition to...homosexuals” is equally wrong.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:43 PM By Mea Culpa
This letter is great, we should be speaking out about the homo-fascists and how they are targeting the Mormons. (I don't see them demonstrating at any Black churches.) We need to recall the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller about the Holocaust: ""In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." In our case, it could be "First they came for the Mormons, and I didn't speak up."
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:45 PM By Grisha
Joan: When the 1st, very modest, domestic partners legislation was on the table in the late '80's early '90s involving these basic humanterian issues, tnhe AD of SF fought it tooth and nail. I''m glad to see conservative Catholics now support domestic partnerships! Please forgive our LGBTbrothers and sisters if they conclude it's too little too late.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:55 PM By Tom P
If anyone has heard of a single politician who condemned the violent actions of the sodomite mobs, please post his name.
(I'm not holding my breath.)
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:01 PM By Evan
Joan, look more closely. With respect to hospitals, if a man is unconscious or unable to make decisions, there's no legal guarantee that any "loved one" will be allowed to visit or make decisions on behalf of the patient without special documentation acceptable in the sole discretion of the hospital and its attorneys. With respect to inheritance, anyone can inherit by way of a will (prepared at added expense) but the IRS and many states will still tax the inheritance/estate of unmarried partners differently than spouses. It doesn't matter to the IRS if the surviving partner has lived in that house for the last 50 years when he can't pay the taxes on his inheritance that a surviving spouse wouldn't have to pay - that house may be seized and sold as needed to pay. Similarly, with transfers of money and property between unmarried partners while they are alive. For example, when someone puts his or her same-sex partner on the title to a home, it can constitute a transfer of 50% of the value of the home -- as if the two were strangers -- and taxed accordingly. Different-sex married couples do not pay this tax. In addition, while employer-provided health insurance for a spouse is not taxed, health insurance for a partner may be taxed if it's even available at all. The Federal Family and Medical Leave Act provides up to twelve weeks of unpaid leave to care for a spouse or child, but same-sex couples are excluded. In addition, married people qualify for some Social Security benefits if their spouses become disabled, especially if their children are young. But same-sex partners do not qualify. While a few states offer domestic partnerships and the above concerns may not exist at the state level within the state(s) where the domestic partnership is recognized, they are not recognized with respect to other states where the partner may have property and none are recognized at the federal level. On the federal level alone, the differences can be quite substantial.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:16 PM By JLS
Mea Culpa, did they ever come for the NRA members?
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:36 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA. In your response to Chris C."They have sympathy for the Mormons but disdain for many in their own Church." Catholic Bishops only have disdain for sinful acts that separate the soul from sanctifying grace, not the sinners, Mark.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:30 PM By jfair
As a proponent of Proposition 8 and member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I am profoundly grateful for letter for the letter of support from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. I particularly wish to thank Bishop William Weigand, head of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Sacramento, and San Francisco Archbishop George Niederauer for their unwavering support on Proposition 8, despite criticism from media, politicians, and from other groups or individuals. The words, Christian Courage come to mind for all those who, despite being ridiculed or belittled, continue to believe in protecting the sanctity of marriage.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:41 PM By Eileen
This is not the first time that I have seen the Mormon Church defend the right thing. The Mormon Church was very kind to my family when I lived in Utah. My entire neighborhood was LDS except for one other Catholic family. When my young son in the third grade went to ride the school bus on the first day the children asked my son what religion he was. He answered, "I am Catholic". The children said that he would have to stand and not sit. My son said, "Hey, I thought that you came here to escape the same treatment that your are doing to me". Well, that made them want to pummel my son all the more. Some of Mormon children on the bus went home and told their parents. That night we received a phone call from the local bishop apologizing for what had taken place. I was so impressed that they were willing to speak up and admit the injustice. Imagine if we all admitted our transgressions to one another, defended morality and honestly worked to instill decent moral values. We lived in Utah for two years and the night before we moved away the LDS church sent a neighbor to ask us if we wanted to join the church before we left for a transfer in the bay area. The man that they sent was the father on nine children and his wife had also been very kind to me. I told him. "No thank you because I love my Catholic faith. I believe that I have the fullness of the truth." This man then asked me if I was upset with him for inviting my family to join their church. I told him that I understood that he thought that he had the truth and that I was like a hungry beggar who he wanted to help and that he would feel remiss if he didn't offer what he thought was good and true. I never saw anyone look so relieved in my life. He thought I was going to be angry with him for asking me to join. That was many years ago but I am once again heartened to see the LDS Church stand up and defend marriage in the same way that they honorably spoke up against the injustice towards my son on that bus.
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:51 PM By Lot
Two men cohabitating is not marriage; it creates nothing, it is unnatural and is responsible for the spread of a disease that has killed millions. Marriage is rooted in human nature itself and the complementarity of the genders; one man and one woman procreating children and raising a family--the future society. This has nothing to do with religion. The "gay" lobby wants to get sodomy called "marriage" so they can punish anyone who won't go along with made up discrimination and/or hate speech legal statutes. Don't be fooled! Since visitors from the "gay" lobby are posting propaganda on this blog I ask the following: What happened to the rights of the elderly woman carrying a cross in Palm Springs 3 weeks ago who was physically assaulted by the gaystapo? Is that free speech? What happened to her rights?
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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:09 PM By Joan
Evan, your response was typical--just change the subject! The false statement made by Chris C. concerned hospital visits. But since you bring up another matter pertaining to medical decisions, let's talk about that. We should all be prepared in advance with special documentation for health care decisions to be made for us when or if we no longer are able. You assign someone you trust, (your "loved one" as you put it), with the Power of Attorney for Health Care. The problems that may arise without this legal document are not unique to homosexuals. (Another false claim of victimhood.)
Interesting, after your long list of complaints about taxes, benefits etc. you admit that those concerns may not exist in states where domestic partnership is recognized. (Another try at changing the subject! )The subject for discussion here is California!
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Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:14 AM By momma
We need more churches to take a stand on this and join our fight to protect families. I wonder if the way many of the gays have acted has changed some minds. It sure has made me sure I was on the right side......The Lord's side. It may be hard to stand up for what is right, but it is sure worth it in the end.
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Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:23 AM By Jettboy
I think that real progress between the conservative religious community will be made ONLY when theological disrespect ends. Otherwise, as greatful as I am as a Mormon to this letter; it rings hallow. This doesn't mean a lack of theological disagreements, but an end to nasty and official condemnations of what others believe. Solidarity is what makes Liberalism so powerful. Theological bitterness is what makes conservative Catholics, Mormons, Evangelicals, Jews, and Mulsims weak and semi-successful. It is hard enough fighting our political enemies when we strive so hard to fight among ourselves.
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Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:50 AM By Tom
I have seen a video of a little old lady hold a cruxifix in her hands surrounded by a protesting group of homosexuals. They were shouting and screaming at her. They tore the cruxifix away from her hands and stomp on it. I will never the community of homosexuals if they do this. I support the LDS, the AfroAmerican, as well as my church in their efforts to keep marriage between and man and a woman.
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Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:37 AM By J H
On this hanksgiving morning, I thank God for America. I attended Mass this mnorning in Watsonville, I was inspired by the fact that so many people attended to thank God for sustaining us. I am overwhelmed by so many of above lertters were written in response to the Catholic backing of the Mormons to the ugly consequences the Mormon church has suffered by the foes of the union at marriage of a Man and a Woman...period! GOD BLESS AMERICA WE ARE PROUD THAT SO MANY MORMONS RESPONED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFENSE OF THE MORMAN VIEW ON PROP 8
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Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:54 PM By almond milk
Bravo...we need to give them our full support where we stand on common ground! I am thankful that they are fighting the good fight as well!
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Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 1:06 PM By marc j belllm
Thank God (literally) that prop 8 passed, and I thank the Church for standing up for Biblical principles and looking for our Lord's approval instead of man's approval. Bravo and blessings to the Church and all of you faithful members of the Catholic faith.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 5:57 AM By Fr. M.P.
This is also an example whereby an ecclesial community without the fullness of Truth is doing better than many of those people in the Church with the fullness of Truth, e.g. those modernist cafeteria Catholics.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 6:16 AM By JLS
Jettboy, it is difficult for people to overlook truth, which is why there is so much argument as to what truth is. You seem to be suggesting that we all forget what we believe in and just go with our commonly believed morals. This is what Puritanism, Deism and Unitarianism consists of. As a Catholic, this is not good enough.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 9:39 AM By rick
Let's fight the death penalty!
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 2:28 PM By Todd Robbins
As a LDS member, I thank you for your support. God help us all to speak for truth in the face of opposition.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 10:42 PM By Almond Milk
Todd Robbins
you're welcome. : ) God bless you.
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:14 AM By seamus
It is beyond embarassing so self evident the lie in the attempt by Bishop Blaire and Archbishop Mahoney to characterize this undermining of the equal protection clause of the Constitution as not directed at same sex couples and the presently 13000 children of those unions. It is equally fatuous of them to insist that the opposition play nice and accept the tyranny of the majority and its injustice. And it is in utter contempt of the truth for the bishop of Sacramento to label as bigots those protesting the churches that acted as political agents of reaction, when far from being the aggrieved party he and they are the oppressor.
Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Los Angeles Archdiocese stated clearly the bishops agenda in a manner that in previous times struck fear in Jews and Hugenots, in the following statement.
"I am grateful to the Catholic Community of Los Angeles for your commitment to the institution of marriage as fashioned by God and to work with such energy to enshrine this divine plan into our state's Constitution,"
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:21 AM By brian
In giving so much material support for the passage of Prop 8 without giving pause to reflect on the astonishing elevation of the right to marry as a basic human right amd subject to the close scrunity level of the equal protection clause, the Catholic leadership has participatied in a divisive undermining of the authority of the Court and in imposing as a tyranny of the majority that eviserates the equal protection clause for all Californians. Pope Benedict said “The union of love, based on matrimony between a man and a woman, which makes up the family, represents a good for all society that can not be substituted by,...other types of unions,”
The pope also spoke of the inalienable rights of the traditional family, “founded on matrimony between a man and a woman, to be the natural cradle of human life”.
What was so interesting in the California Supreme Court’s reasoning is its defense of the familial aspect of same sex marriages. If the Pope and the US Conference of Bishops want to conflate Catholic theology and secular law, they would be wise to read the Court’s concern for the families of same sex unions. The cradle for adopted, neglected or abandonned children,is found in all unions, including same sex and is more in keeping with sacramental theology where all, through Christ, become the adopted children of God.
Ironic that a secular Court has so much to teach the Church in this regard , which is increasingly identifying itself as the last refuge of bigotry.
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:54 PM By JLS
brian, you've got it backwards. It is the secular government that is subject to God and His Church, no matter how hard it pretends otherwise. One day, whether here or in the hereafter, you may come to understand what Jesus meant when He said to Pilate, that He could ask and His Father in Heaven would send twelve legions of angels to defend Him. The secular world exists at the pleasure of God; it is God's Church who is here to save people like you from yourselves.
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Posted Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:53 PM By Lot
The equal protection clause has nothing to do with the "gay" lobby's push to have sodomy redefined as "marriage" Reality check people! Two men creates nothing; two men is not a family. It is grossly unfair to place orphans with two men. Recently a child asked the two wealthy men who had "adopted" him if they would buy him a mommy.
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Posted Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:07 PM By Mea Culpa
There is no such thing as sodomite "marriage." Never has been, never will be. The sodomites' public tantrums, largely directed at the Mormon Church, have made more people see them for what they are - whining sinners, insisting we not only accept them in their sinfulness but enshrine their perversion by calling it "marriage" - which it is not and never will be. If the election were held today, Prop. 8 would pass by an even larger majority - because of the actions of the sodomites.
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Posted Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:08 PM By Grisha
Lot - In the vast majority of cases where gay men adopt, the other option for rthe child isn't having a loving mommy and a daddy, but rather a cold, sterile institution or an abusive situation.
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Posted Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:19 PM By Ben
The "gay" lobby isn't trying to redefine sodomy as "marriage", for in fact the law already allows sodomites to marry and indeed millions of married sodomites engage in sodomy daily. What the "gay" lobby is wondering is why the law only allows sodomites to marry if they're opposite sex sodomites.
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 5:13 AM By Fr. M.P.
Grisha, the ends don't justify the means. Putting a child in a sinful joinage (or perhaps lustful single) and polluting their soul is not a solution to adoption. One can never use sin to justify a good action, right?
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 11:08 AM By Eileen
Grisha, Having to watch two daddies kissing is child abuse in the eyes of God and most worthy of that millstone around the neck. Slavery was once well thought of too!
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 12:50 PM By Peter
So in your eyes, Eileen, it is worse that a child should witness two men kissing than to remain in the world cold and alone in a loveless state institution or in an abusive, dysfunctional opposite sex family. Are you suggesting that it is better for a child to have no family at all than to be part of a loving same-sex family; or that it is better for a child to be outright abused as long as that abuse occurs within a "traditional" family? And what of slavery? The bible was was once used to justify slavery; surely it's use in justifying any type of prejudice is misguided as well.
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 12:54 PM By Grisha
Eileen - For some kids in State orhanages in provincial China or Russia, the alternative to watching two daddies kissing may be to grow up in an enviornemt where NO ONE kisses or hugs ever.
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 1:00 PM By Grisha
Fr. MP: You write "One can never use sin to justify a good action, right?" Actually it has been my understanding that somewhere in the d tradition, there is a teaching of "proportionality." A recent example was the Bishop quoted as saying he'd die to stop abortion. Suicide is sin, yet the Bishop seems to think it might be all right in furtherance of a much greater good.
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 2:07 PM By Grace
Are Over A Third of Foster Parent Molestations Homosexual?
Summary: 50% of foster parent abuse in a general population survey and 34% of abuse as determined by the Illinois DCFS was homosexual. In news stories in the 50 largest newspapers and wire services 1980-2003, 175 foster parents sexually abused 351+ charges. For the 169 whose sex of victim could be determined: 149 (88%) were men; 76 (53%) victimized homosexually; and 85 (50%) were unmarried. Men assaulted 319 (91%) victims, homosexual practitioners 222 (63%), and the unmarried 164 (47%). From 1980-1994, 57% of the victims were girls, after 1994 56% were boys. In 21 group homes, the molestation was homosexual in 15 (71%) and 31 of the 32+ perpetrators were male and at least 334 of 349+ victims were boys.
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 2:58 PM By JLS
Grisha, the bishop was not talking about suicide but about martyrdom ... please notice the color of his hat, and recall the words of the late John Paul II that it is the job of bishops to honor this color of blood, both in the way they live and the way they die. If you have not yet heard, the Pope and other popes have called abortion an intrinsic evil and it is thus the bishops' job to stop abortion. Why? Because the Great Commission says so: "disciple the nations".
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 4:54 PM By Edward
Grace, if you read the actual study rather than the summary, it says in regard to the alleged 50% of foster parent abuse that "it was not determined how many respondents had been in a foster home." What's more, the alleged 50% figure was a total of 3 women out of 3714 people, but it was not substantiated by any police report. And none of your statistics establish the adult sexual interests of the abusers, so they do not establish anything with respect to people who are attracted to adults of the same sex, and is thus not a proper use of the word "homosexual" as defined in Church teaching.
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 9:31 PM By Anne T.
The answer to helping children whether they were born to the parents who have them or are adopted or foster children, is not to hand them over to every single person one can find, especially those engaging in homosexual activity. The answer is to strengthen heterosexual marriage, make divorce harder, take away the heterosexual marriages taxes that are immoral in the first place and put stress on marriages, and get rid of all the other awful laws that have discouraged heterosexual couples from doing the right thing--getting married and staying married. Those far to the left on social issues of whatever party have done everything they can do to destroy and make stressful heterosexual marriages, then given homosexual adoptions as the answer. It is the wrong answer. Every child deserves to have a mother and a father in the home if at all possible. Even the well-fare system discouraged the fathers from staying around the woman who had his child, and the child himself/herself. I know a middle-age woman who adopted three teens from Romania, she told me it was harder than she had expected. Of course, one was a teen age boy who needed the love and discipline of a father. A return to traditional morality is necessary also. That is the crux of the problem.
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:00 AM By Eileen
Grisha and Peter, Stop playing the cold institutions card to rationalize sin and defend children being exposed to evil. You sound just like the advocates of abortion who always bring up the question, "What about cases of rape" when statistically rape cases are less than 1% of the total amount. Then the worldly can say, "Let's kill all of them so we can get our abortion on demand under the guise of asking the, "what about the rape victims" questions." So by your lustfully slave driven logic, lets expose innocent children to perversion because they were going to be put in an institution anyway. Read about the miserably unstable lives of children who were raised by two daddies and two mommies who are adults now. They saw the perversion and it wasn't the rosy picture that you are trying to sell to justify evil. Institutions are terrible and exposing children to perversion is not the solution. Peter there are different types of slavery. Some people with homosexual disorders are so slavishly ruled by their lust, they will even exploit children so they can fantasize that their behavior is gaining acceptance. The worldly may even fantasize right along with them. Grisha, my father a faithful convert was raised in one of those cold institutions. He would be the first to tell you that as cold as the institution was...damaging innocent children to further evil agendas takes an even colder heart. That cold heart is really not interested in the lives of children, it is interested in promoting the acceptance of their own sinful life at the expense of harming children. The gay agenda has exploited innocent children by entering through the back door of cleverly disguised concern for children. Their main concern is gaining the acceptance of their sinful lifestyle by using children as shills to appear loving. There is no love in exposing children to perversion that the Gospel has recognized as such. Remember what Our Lord said about scandalizing His little ones? No one will fool God!
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:54 AM By Fr. M.P.
Grisha, you have a very incorrect understanding. The Bishop who said he would die didn't say that he would commit suicide. He would offer his life as Jesus did. There are many who offer their lives - they are called martyrs. Secondly, there is never - repeat never - a justification of using sin to commit a good. The proportionality we talk about for voting is when the choices of candidates for office are both un-Catholic in their beliefs. For example, if there were two Obama's running for office, then you could compare issues other than abortion. Where do you get your knowledge from?
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 7:04 AM By JLS
The more turmoil that politicians can induce into society means the more bureaucrats needed to manage society and the more taxes needed to support government wealth and power. So, it is to the great advantage of politicians to play brinkmanship with chaos in governing society. They will not of their own accord reverse this chaos.
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:44 AM By Almond Milk
Great post Anne T. . You are definitely right. This culture tends to forget what is important and that is helping out this society in giving our children one father and one mother, one they can count on to help raise them well. All children need a mother and a father. It is very important.
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:34 AM By betty
Father M.P. Your comment of "proper ecumenism " suggests that there is such a thing as "improper ecumenism" and I'd like to know what "improper ecumenism" is. For what it's worth, we had a Mormon couple who enrolled their little daughter in the same Catholic school that my children went to. My daughter became good friends with their little daughter. When they moved away they told us that we were the only family who made friendly gestures toward their little daughter.
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:05 PM By Grisha
Fr. MP: "there is never - repeat never - a justification of using sin to commit a good." What about a woman who turns to prostitution as a last resport to keep her children from starving? This is a hypotetical. It actually happens frequently in the Third World.
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:35 PM By Alan
In Matthew 12, Jesus said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat? Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned these innocent men."
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:13 PM By Eileen
Grisha, Now you are playing the Third World card to justify some more hypothetical sin! I notice that even the woman in your hypothetical example also fell victim to your slavishly consistent thoughts. Did she have to be a prostitute to feed her children? Why didn't you say she stole food to feed her children? It is still wrong but look where your mind feels most comfortable. Why is it always defending sexual sin? You are consumed with defending certain particular sins that seem to be your master. I don't even think that you realize it. Grisha, God loves you completely. You cannot serve two masters. Which master will you choose?
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:44 PM By Fr. M.P.
betty, improper ecumenism is where the lousy Catholics suppress the truth or discard the truth to find a least common denominator. We must not compromise with error in order to "get along." That's what I mean.
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Posted Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:35 AM By Dai Yoshida
Grisha: I think you'd have to be a pretty twisted person to turn to prostitution without a compelling reason. I think Jesus' answer will always be the same, "Sin no more." Why are you always looking for a wiggle room out of Church teachings?
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Posted Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:53 AM By Almond Milk
Fr. M.P thank you for telling Grisha how it is. I just can't stand these so called Catholics who justify sin, so they can keep on condoning and bring down society. Our morals in this country are not looking good lately. It is a pity because I would love to see everyone saved!
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Posted Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:48 AM By GRISHA
Eileen: My point is that in some parts of the world, the poorest of the poor have no alternative to sinful behavior to feed their children. Prostitution is common. Pick pocketing is another. My question remains. Do these kind of extreme situations, to use the language in Section 2352 of the CCC, "..lessen or even extenuate moral culpability."?
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Posted Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:21 AM By Dai Yoshida
Grisha: Your so-called "third world country" is truly hypothetical. I grew up in poverty and lived side by side with people from third world countries. They brought up their children in third world countries without resorting to prostitution or pick-pocketing. As a person of color, I resent stereotypes, particularly stereotypes spewed by white people to advance their particular agenda. Your agenda seems to be "looking for excuse to sin" Please don't hoist the poor and the "third world" as your poster child. We don't appreciate it.
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Posted Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:02 PM By Grisha
Dai Yoshida - This started as me asking the question "What about a woman who turns to prostitution as a last resort to keep her children from starving?" This was in relation to the suggestion that a sin can never be justified if it brings about a greater good. Actually I checked the Catechism and found the answer. Section 235 states "While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, ther immutability of the offence can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure." How about the person who resorts to pickpocketing for the same rerson. Let's all look at the CCC Section onthe 7th Commandment and discuss it.
Also - What's this Third World "We" business. I understand you live in LA. I realize it's a smoggy hellhole compared to San Francisco, but it's a notch up from even the the 2nd world (Most of the Former FSU and the Balkans) I know you live in South Central and I've got to tell you that I've been there and the conditions in much of provincial Russia are much worse.
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