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Published: January 20, 2010
Read and Weep
The Gay Answer to Election Losses
The following excerpts are from “A Risky Proposal,” an article that appeared in the New Yorker dated January 18.
The case that became Perry v. Schwarzenegger would probably never have materialized had it not been for a young political strategist in Hollywood named Chad Griffin. On Election Night in November, 2008, Griffin was watching the returns at a San Francisco hotel with Gavin Newsom, the city’s mayor, who, in a short-lived experiment in 2004, had presided over same-sex marriages at City Hall; Newsom’s wife, Jennifer; Bruce Cohen, a filmmaker who produced Milk and American Beauty and is a high-profile gay activist in Hollywood; and Kristina Schake, Griffin’s business partner and best friend. Like many gay Democrats that night, Griffin was exultant about Barack Obama winning the Presidency but despondent that Proposition 8 had passed. Griffin recalls “going into a forty-eight-hour spiral of depression. All I could think about was the message this sent to the kid I used to be, growing up in Arkansas.”
But Griffin is not a guy who stays depressed—or at least merely depressed—for long. A week after the election, he was having lunch at the Polo Lounge, in the Beverly Hills Hotel, with Schake, discussing strategy with the actor and director Rob Reiner, for whom Griffin had formerly run a foundation, and Reiner’s wife, Michele. This was no idle exercise: Griffin had played a big role in the “No on 8” campaign, enlisting donations and support from prominent Californians, including the actor Brad Pitt, the real-estate heir and film producer Steve Bing, and the supermarket mogul Ron Burkle, who hosted a fund-raiser at his Los Angeles mansion. Griffin has orchestrated successful statewide ballot initiatives promoting clean energy and early-childhood education, and his clients include Maria Shriver, the First Lady of California. Still, nobody at the Polo Lounge lunch had alighted on what seemed like a winning plan until an acquaintance of Michele Reiner’s, Kate Moulene, stopped by the table, and heard what they were talking about. Later, Moulene told the Reiners that they should get in touch with her former brother-in-law, Ted Olson. You’d be surprised, Moulene told them—he’s with you on this….
Perry v. Schwarzenegger is not the only federal lawsuit for gay marriage. Another one, Gill v. Office of Personnel Management, is thought by some scholars to stand a better chance of success, though it has been overshadowed by Olson and Boies’s effort. Gill was filed last March, by a public-interest law firm, Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders (GLAD), in Boston. One of the GLAD lawyers on the case is Mary Bonauto—the attorney who successfully argued the case that legalized same-sex marriage in Massachusetts. (That case is heralded by many gay activists but is seen by others as a cautionary tale: the ruling, announced in the run-up to the 2004 Presidential election, served as a rallying cry for evangelical voters, and may have helped Bush win a second term.) Gill is not the damn-the-torpedoes case that Perry is. It challenges a section of the Defense Against Marriage Act which prevents same-sex couples from receiving the many benefits accorded to married couples at the federal level—from joint tax filing to health insurance for federal employees’ families—even though in the state of Massachusetts those couples are lawfully married. Gill insists not on the constitutionality of same-sex marriage but on the unconstitutionality of denying federal benefits to a class of citizens whose marriages are recognized by the state.
As seemingly modest as the Gill case is, it could help create a favorable climate for more ambitious challenges, including the Perry case. Thomas Keck, a political-science professor at Syracuse University who is an expert on the Supreme Court, told me, “I don’t think any of us can predict how it’s all going to turn out. But Gill is a very well-designed case, a well-targeted challenge that has a good chance of winning, and that broader challenges could be built on. If it wins, in a practical sense we would have federally recognized same-sex marriage. At that point, it would be much harder to defend the federal government’s refusal to recognize same-sex marriage in other parts of the country.” Gill could also go to the Supreme Court, and if it makes it there first, and succeeds, it could help Olson and Boies….
To read entire story, Click here.
Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:34 AM By Charles O'Connell
This is but the latest in the long sorry history of subverting the people's will through what are called "litigation campaigns", intrinsically elitist "pressure group activity … 'tailored to fit the format of a lawsuit but specifically designed to produce broad social change rather than to vindicate the private rights of the parties'. Litigation campaigns originate not with grass-roots groups but with elites who control significant economic and social resources [i.e., the nearly unlimited resources of leftist, "non-profit" foundations].. … Litigation campaigns are extremely costly: 'To control, organize, and manage a carefully selected sequence of cases, it is also necessary to have sizable resources in money, legal talent, and experience. Funding is especially important, for litigation is expensive.' In litigation campaigns, the characteristic resource is not grass-roots volunteers but routine access to elite networks. Ordinary people start social movements; elites start litigation campaigns." (James R. Kelly, "Seeking a Sociologically Correct Name For Abortion Opponents", "Abortion politics in the United States and Canada: Studies in public opinion", 1994.)
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:34 AM By Charles O'Connell
Though our movement's most exciting leader, Sarah Palin, doesn't speak well in one-on-one media interviews, she is energizing the people of this country to defy, not only the juridical & informational elites, but those in academia & all other dominant establishment institutions. We must rebel against the new counter-orthodoxy and take back our culture, for our children, families & nation.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:57 AM By Aaron
The Defense of Marriage Act specifically and purposefully takes away rights from a minority. It is very clearly unconstitutional and if not now, eventually will be ruled illegal by the US Supreme Court.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 1:50 AM By WOODY GUIDRY
THE PEOPLE'S STATE ELECTION will probably be a another reminder of how mixed, even "blended", the courts of different levels influence each other. Not much is made of the polarized freeze between two abortion "rights" groups which followed the seemingly unrelated Roe v. Wade decision. Likely enough, Norma McCovey, who was the Jane Roe, attracted more public notice (but far less politically) than the abortion split when she publicly changed her mind after the Court's ruling. Now, the very latest state election spectacle is the "one-vote-less" needed to prevent wrapping a whole political party in a straight jacket. Generational divide is another recognized factor everywhere, but especially in state elections re same-sex "marriage". Lawyers appear to have a need for an oversized periscope on a great number of varied issues which may affect each other down the line in federal court. Politicians are born with their very own periscopes.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:27 AM By Thomas Edward Miles
Sounds like possible good news to me! May the Lord continue to guide the court in matter! God bless America!
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 6:40 AM By Nick
Stop the oligarchy of the liberals and the courts. Let the people vote!!!!
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 7:58 AM By Canisius
Notice how the sodomites know they cannot win by popular vote, so they must use the courts to twist the law to get what they want. May they one day feel the wrath that is waiting for them..
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:56 AM By Maryanne Leonard
Why can't gays just go off and set up households as they always have, make legal commitments to one another as they now have the right to do, giving them every advantage other citizens have who are normal, straight, men and women, and leave the word "marriage" alone? This is all about a word, for heaven's sake! Why can't they invent their own word and leave us in peace? I am more disposed to ignore them than to have them steal yet another word from us. I don't relish the word marriage being transformed to include gays, as I don't want to have to answer the question, "Are you married to a man or a woman?" Talk about a politically correct waste of time! Homosexual relationships want marriage for what reason? So they can also get a divorce? They have all the legal rights they need, and we don't want to normalize that which is not normal. We can accept it, ignore it, pity it, and pray for those who suffer this unfortunate affliction, but let's not give up the word marriage after having had the word gay stolen from us. As citizens we don't want to normalize homosexual marriage, and as Catholics we don't want our priests forced to marry homosexuals in our churches. Marriage between men and women has been a tradition for millenia, and is suffering attacks on every level. Marriage is for men and women; let them find their own word for long-term legal homosexual commitments, and let them share the word "divorce!" Do not let homosexuals steal from us again and defile the very name of our sacrament of matrimony. While I wish homosexuals no harm, I wish for them to do us no harm either.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:13 AM By Boycott Hollywood
Everyone who opposes same sex marriage or any other non-traditional marriage which may be down the road if same sex marriage becomes the law of the land should boycott the movies that are directed, produced or star the people who are putting their names and big money to back homosexual marriage
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:15 AM By Sawyer
Maryanne, the whole campaign is to try and force society to accept objectively deviant and disordered behavior/desires as normal, good, healthy and acceptable.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:36 AM By Observant
...doing to our legal system what is done by some corporally....
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:57 AM By Aaron
Maryanne is ill informed. 1) You must be MARRIED to a foreigner in order to sponsor him/her for immigration. 2) If you are a federal employee, only your SPOUSE is eligible for federal group health insurance 3) You must be MARRIED to get tax forgiveness for the estate of a deceased SPOUSE 4) You must be MARRIED to file a joint tax return. THESE ARE ONLY A FEW of the 1186 rights that come with marriage. I am keenly aware of the problem since my proposal to sponsor my Spanish partner of 7 years for immigration was flatly denied - so at age 67, I gave up my medicare coverage, left my kids, sold my house and moved to Spain. I don't care what it is called-garriage, rather than marriage is fine. I just want the same rights as married couples. THAT is what all this fuss is about.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 11:51 AM By JLS
No, Aaron, Maryanne Leonard, is rather well informed and faithful to her formation in Christ. She is telling you that homosexualism needs to be restrained from affecting society in any way possible. The fruit born by any tree reflects that tree. Jesus always talks about cutting off the rotten branches ... which is a sign that all of us are intrinsically good, and that we must at all costs give up our evil deeds and attitudes, homosexuality being either one or the other or both. Man's job on earth is to repair the damage done by the sin of Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity. You need to get your own life in order, and giving up your homosexual practice is your first big step, Aaron.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:00 PM By MarkF
"The Defense of Marriage Act specifically and purposefully takes away rights from a minority." Wrong. Or maybe not. The situation that no pro-homosexual marriage groups wants to face is the issue of incestuous marriages and group marriages. Unless the judges rely on gross hypocrisy, they will find that the same laws and standards that limit marriage to a man and a woman also limit group marriages and incestuous marriages. I've asked many pro-homosexual people to explain how you can make same-sex marriage legal without also legalizing all other arrangements. I've never, ever got an answer back. At most they storm about how "different" same-sex marriage is from incestuous marriages. When pressed they cannot explain HOW they are different. I pray to Jesus through the Virgin that the judges see the truth and stop this madness before it spreads. In truth, what we need is a constitutional amendment to define marriage as between one man and one woman.
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 1:05 PM By Canisius
Aaaron you just dont get, your deviant lifestyle does not entitle you to any rights under the law.....
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Posted Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:04 PM By Lisa
Aaron,
You wanting the same rights as the "rest of us" might be your only objective, however it's the objective some other people will use those so called rights to impose those lifestyles as acceptable in order to destroy the Catholic Church and other religious institutions, which have from the very beginning believed a marriage is a covenant shared by a man and a woman with God. I dont oppose to you being allowed to have the same tax rights as any other person, you are to me another child of God and therefore you are a brother or a sister to me, though I do not believe in homosexual relationships, and for those who say to leave God out of it, well, personally, I can't, but still, homosexual relationships are not natural, it doesn't mean that there is not love there, it's just not how you were created to be. If you want to call me an ignorant bigot, fine, just show me another species that live this way on this planet...There aren't any because they cannot procreate.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 5:22 AM By Aaron
Nobody is trying to destroy traditional marriage, force Catholic priests to join gays in garriage or destroy the Catholic church. Gay marriage is legal in Spain. Priests are NOT forced to preside over gay marriage ceremonies; traditional marriage/ families still exist; the Catholic church has not been destroyed. The ONLY difference is that gay couples have equal rights, which is WHY the Spanish legislature proposed & approved gay marriage. The USA, "one Nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all" is the apex of hypocrisy. There is "liberty & justice for all" ONLY for heterosexuals. To Cassius: If you have your way, will I be granted the right to have a job? Make a living? Own a car or house? Drive on city streets? Ride the subway? Go to school? Why don't you just kill all of us, like the Catholic church did during the Spanish Inquisition or like the Muslims do even today? But guess what? God, in his wisdom, will just keep creating little babies who will grow up and discover they are attracted to their own gender-so you will just have to kill more. Homosexuals have always existed, and they always will - so just get over it. You might even have a child or grandchild that is one of us HORRIBLE gay people.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:11 AM By Maryanne Leonard
Aaron, the sad thing is that by selecting a homosexual partner for your life's companion, you are effectively killing your own genetic heritage, not to mention subjecting yourself to lots of personal rejection from society at large, which is basically appalled by the things homosexuals do to one another. But what about that question you raise of some societies killing homosexuals? Most do not, as you know, but virtually everyone is completely disgusted by homosexuals, whether they openly admit it or not, due to politeness, political correctness, or compassion for what you suffer as a homosexual. You yourself are "killing" your own children and grandchildren. Don't you see that homosexuals are the end of the genetic line that is their personal heritage? The gift of life is a gift from God, and He has given you a gift that you have chosen to defile, thus making your own life so much harder than it needs to be. If you renounce your sorrowfully misdirected lifestyle and come back into the church, I will be the first to welcome you with open arms. Spain is a beautiful place to live, but remember, long term, heaven is better.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:27 PM By Greg
Maryanne, not everyone is called to have children. As Jesus said, "Some are eunuchs because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced... Whoever can accept this ought to accept it." For example, celibacy also, to use your words, "effectively kills your own genetic heritage, not to mention subjects yourself to lots of personal rejection from society at large." But so what? The Bible says, "rejoice and be glad" when society at large rejects you. Jesus said it himself, "Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also." That's how hard it needs to be. As Jesus said, "Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 5:59 PM By JLS
"Nobody is trying to destroy traditional marriage": Aaron, this kind of idea is extremely self centered and absent of all understanding of the problem with disordered nature. As in all disorders, the solution is to minimize them, and restore the subject to order. It is social suicide to encourage or promote disorder.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:10 PM By JLS
Just to be clear, Greg, the issue you bring up and the issue of Aaron's promotion of homosexual behavior are two different things. Evidently what you are comparing is the "eunach" issue with what Maryanne said about procreation. What also has to be entered into this "formula" is the fact that the Church consists of fathers, mothers and sisters and brothers all of whom help provide the familyness that reflects God. Some eunachs have spiritual children, etc. Aaron is being told that his sexual behavior is misplaced and if he is going to do it then he should do it to procreate children. She is not saying what you bring up; however, what you have brought up is a good point to further develop.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:30 PM By Mark from PA
Maryanne, did you read Aaron's post of 9:57 AM? He moved to Spain when he was 67. His children are grown so he is not killing his children and grandchildren. He was married and a faithful husband and his wife died. He is a widower and is living with another man in a committed relationship.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:15 PM By gravey
"He (Aaron) was married and a faithful husband and his wife died...and is living with another man in a committed relationship." Clearly, Aaron has no idea what it means to be in a faithful or committed relationship.
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Posted Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:31 PM By JLS
Where do these people come up with this stuff? Married for decades, kids, wife ... then they take up with a sodomite ? What the heck are we that we are supposed to believe this crock? I suspect there are some who are playing our efforts towards charity with a trick.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 1:49 AM By Aaron
My oh my what fun CA Catholic discussions are. I speak ONLY about equal civil rights while JLS repeatedly accuses me of "promotion of homosexual behavior," and how I am completely disordered and trying to destroy society. I don't think so. Just for the record, I am NOT promoting anyone to be like Tomas or me. MY ONLY reason for participating in these discussions is that I believe gay couples must have equal rights, as guaranteed by the Constitution - that's all - that's it. Please, please, please, no more accusations - comments about being disordered or Martian comments like "Aaron has no idea what it means to be in a faithful/committed relationship." Whew-no idea where that came from. I just want ALL Americans to have equal civil rights, just as EVERYONE has in Spain.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 6:08 AM By RR
Aaron: If you are on this website to "ONLY" promote that gay couples "must have equal rights, as guaranteed by the Constitution," then you are definitely on the wrong site. This is a CATHOLIC website and in the Catholic Church your situation is MORTALLY sinful. You are not on here for that reason. You really are on here to try to deceive lukewarm Catholics and get Catholics and the Church to accept your filthy, sinful, and disgusting lifestyle. It ain't gonna happen, pal; at least not for strong, faithful Catholics. Yes, you have managed to get a couple supporters here, two in particular, to accept and promote your filthy agenda. But, my friend, your agenda will not work here, ever. There are too many faithful Catholics on here who won't allow your gay, sick agenda to filtrate here. So, Aaron, I think it's a waste of time here for you. You should be going on other websites that promote your sick agenda and will openly accept your views. It's proof positive that your true agenda here is to try to deceive the faithful, but your up a creek without a paddle here.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 6:16 AM By RR
Aaron: Also, Aaron, I might add that the tone in your very, first sentence of your post @ 1:49 A.M. set the whole picture of the meaning of your agenda. "My oh my what fun CA Catholic discussions are." Your sarcastic tone here tells everyone that you are mocking good and faithful Catholics who won't accept and condone your agenda, thus, blows your cover that you are on here "ONLY about equal civil rights."
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 7:27 AM By Ski Ven
Sure, Aaron. It's not disordered to get what is supposed to take place in the bathroom confused with what is supposed to take place in the bedroom. Yeah, we all believe you.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 8:10 AM By The Truth Hurts
Aaron, Pull that Spanish wool off of your eyes! All of that sheepish nonsense and fuzziness is clouding your vision. You are not admitting the most important truth when you say, "I just want ALL Americans to have equal civil rights, just as EVERYONE has in Spain." Thats not what you really want Aaron because you have already misused the valuable equal right that God gave to you. That right was and is, your important gift of free will. Sadly, you have chosen a path to use this God given equal right to offend God. Aaron, look how God is allowing you the free will to choose to be for Him or against Him. God has not stopped you. He is allowing your choice of the equal right of usage of your free will. Tragically, you have taken that equal right gift and you have foolishly and arrogantly announced to God.."I am against you God, I completely reject Your Perfect Wisdom design for salvation, and oh by the way, right after I reject you God, I just want All Americans to have equal rights, just as EVERYONE has in Spain." Who do you think you are fooling Aaron? Do you think that you are fooling God? You are not just interested in civil rights, you really want acceptance of your sinful choice. God already gave you the equal rights gift of free will for you to use right up until the last "mile" of your life. You are not content with your own personal freedom and right to choose sin. You really just want everyone in America to join your sinful perception and then "inch" into full acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle which already includes the equal right to choose sin or to reject sin.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 10:36 AM By Aaron
Whoa. Guess I hit a nerve. Truth Hurts acts as if he IS God himself. The comments always get back to how immoral you believe 2 men or women loving and caring for each is. So why do I continue posting equal rights issues on CA Catholic? Is it only a discussion site for Catholics who all agree with one another! I think not!!! I participate in these discussions because the Catholic Council of Bishops and the Mormon Church are doing their best to make the USA a Theocracy - where the Church would make the rules. Sorry, folks. It isn't gonna happen as well it shouldn't. No matter what your belief system, dogmatic religious beliefs should not become law that governs everyone. For example,creation of the Defense of Marriage Act was led by Jerry Falwell and supported by CCB. It specifically allows immigration sponsorship ONLY to heterosexual Americans who have foreign spouses. If someone has a mail order bride from Russia, he can get her a green card. Repeated again, the law PROHIBITED me from sponsoring Tomas - it is UTTERLY ridiculous, unfair and does NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to defend traditional marriage. DOMA is unconstitutional and will eventually be overturned by the Supreme Court.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 11:16 AM By The Truth Hurts
For the benefit of any new visitors to California Catholic Daily News....Read this but don't weep! Just be informed! God is in charge! In the latest push for gay marriage there are several people who regularly post comments on this website and they pretend to be in full union with the Catholic Church, but in reality they are not. They actually hate the teachings but they would not get far by publicly admitting it. So what do they do? They use a false mask of charity coupled with benign and serially confusing messages that rule out God's Laws and rule in a perpetual victimization of their choice of not being able to sin freely. Lets look at the gay slang term 'beard" originated in the mid-60's and is used to describe a straight woman married to or involved with a homosexual. The homosexual may be in the public eye, and may have a beard to hide the fact that he is a homosexual. In other words a beard is really a phony representation of something that does not really exist. The objective of the beard is to fool people Mark from PA is another type of a beard who does not want to hide the fact that he is bi-sexual, he wants to *misrepresent* what the Catholic Church teaches. California Catholic Daily charitably allows Mark to post for two reasons. First, they care about all souls that are lost and misguided. Secondly,Mark demonstrates the bearded strategy he uses to appear to be in full union with the Catholic Church. Just as the female beard pretends to fool society by appearing publicly with a homosexual, Mark religiously beards a pretend front in appearing united with the Catholic Faith. Well ,so much for appearances because appearances are deceiving. Mark from PA is on a single self-serving mission to subvert the fullness of Truth of the Catholic Church. California Catholic Daily is on the Catholic Church's much broader mission that includes the informing of Mark's disobedience as well as educating others in the tactics that are employed by the homosexual agenda.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 3:57 PM By JLS
The Truth Hurts, you make clarity of expression look easy.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 4:03 PM By JLS
Aaron, you are twisting "equal rights". Maybe you and your sin mate can twist each other's minds, but you have no right to twist marriage. Marriage is God's mandate for sex, and marriage between man and woman reflects the image and likeness of God. God does not tolerate people who adulterate His image and likeness. You are being told this because it is one of the things that the Catholic Church is obligated to God to do, which is to admonish sinners in the hope that they turn from their sins and embrace God and not perversion. Wherever you contrary ideas are coming from, it is not from God; God is a jealous God, and the only God, and will not tolerate idol worshipers. You are being advised of this so that hopefully you will turn from your false worship.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 4:39 PM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, a lot of people here don't always follow Church teachings. The Catechism says that gay people "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity." Also they should not be discriminated against. I don't see Aaron being treated like this. I have also read from some here about how they will only go to Mass if it is in Latin and some have even not gone to Mass for periods of time when no Latin Mass was available. So others have their "missions" also. Nevertheless, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 6:21 PM By Walt
TTH, the objective of many a beard is NOT to fool people, but rather because many in society are evil or non-understanding toward homsoexual persons. Thus, it's an act of grace toward such people, so they might not sin and go to hell. Many non-practicing homosexual persons also have beards. It's an act of social compliance. For some, even becoming a member of the priesthood is a type of beard. The beard is their cross which they carry at great burden to themselves.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 10:01 PM By JLS
PA, your obstinate gay caricature never follows Church teaching, and thus never seeks to turn from its sin.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 10:02 PM By The Truth Hurts
Dear Walt, Thank-you for your honesty. I realize that there are people who cannot see Christ in anyone, including those who struggle with SSA. You are to be greatly commended for your expressed desire about the importance of avoiding sin and not losing your immortal soul. Having a beard may in theory seem like an act of social compliance but I would agree that in practice it must take a tremendous toll. This great burden that is carried must feel like a self-betrayal when another person who is also made in the image and likeness of God is used to superficially cover a deep wound. A greater act of grace would be the freedom to be loved and accepted in society completely as a child of God who would do nothing to offend Him. That powerful grace would include the acceptance of important teachings of the Catholic Church, that when followed are the great igniting infusers of the sanctifying grace that helps us face great trials while on earth. Whenever any one of us seeks outside human solutions instead of interior supernatural help, we suffer interiorly even more. Walt there are many people who do see Christ present in others. including homosexuals. There has been one lone voice of truth regarding the difficulties of SSA from Mark F, who admits that it was an interior work of the Holy Spirit . Walt, it truly boils down to drawing upon our faith,as taught by Christ's True Church. There are very few Saints who escaped the suffering crosses and disappointments of life. There are very many Saints who are spending an eternity in heaven because they truly embraced the cross that was handed to them while they had their very brief time on this earth. Our crosses are our bridge over the dark valleys and lonely trials of this life. No one escapes suffering on this earth. When we truly understand it's value we will understand its purpose. To be loved by God is the fullest joy we can attain on this earth. To Love God fully is the greatest joy that we will experience in heaven.
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Posted Friday, January 22, 2010 10:03 PM By JLS
What in tarnation is this deal about "beard"? Are we launching into some sort of cryptic lingo parlor now? If so, I will have to go over to the Lair of the Catholic Cavemen for a refresher course on how to royally kick heathen booty with Catholic language.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:36 AM By Walt
TTH, do you expect gay people "to be loved and accepted in society completely as a child of God"? Jesus himself was persecuted and told us "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also". And he wore beards. For example, speaking in parables is a type of beard. Beards do not simply "cover" a wound but help to protect the wounded, and that includes society in general which is in general quite wounded and often not willing to accept the truth. Wearing a beard, i.e. conditional withholding of the truth to others, can be a great gift of charity/love to others and to oneself. The Church teaches that the right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. The good and safety of oneself and others, respect for privacy, the common good and duty to avoid scandal are sufficient reasons for many to wear a beard. You speak of love, but for many gay (and straight) people, wearing a beard is carrying out the Commandment to love. As such, it not only "seems like an act of social compliance" but can in fact be compliance with the will of the Lord.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:11 AM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts and Walt, I understand what you are saying here. When I was a teen, I was so innocent, that I didn't "wear a beard" so to speak. I was very unpretentious. But as I became older, I suppose that I did. In a way it is self-protection. JLS, if I met you in person, I would probably "wear a beard." Knowing the way that you feel about some things, I would surely be guarded in my comments. The Truth Hurts, much of what you said in your post of 10:02 PM is very profound.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:13 AM By JLS
Beards are natural; painted faces are whorish. Blessed are those persecuted for the sake of righteousness ... ahem, this does not include homosexuals, whose condition nor sinful behavior are righteous.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:19 AM By JLS
Jesus cured sick people, raised the dead to life, healed crippled people, made the blind to see, and exorcised demons for people. What did He do to the homosexual activists? Incinerated them. He did not heal, or cure homosexuals; rather He provided them with instructions to turn from their disorder ... yes, homosexual disorder is a temptation, and we are to avoid temptations like the plague. Putting oneself in danger of mortal sin is to flirt with the devil; God wants no one to marry the devil, and this means to stop flirting with it. If a man's object of lust is other men, then he has to deny himself especially in this way, pick up his Cross and follow Jesus. Do same sex attracted men believe that Jesus is following them? What vanity!
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:39 AM By Mark from PA
Walt. you speak of conditional withholding of the truth to others. I suppose everyone does this in their lives. I am a living example of "don't ask, don't tell" but after talking to people on this site for a little over a year, perhaps I have reached the point where I would tell, if asked. I have actually found supportive friends by sharing but in one or two cases I have been put down and dehumanized.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 11:26 AM By The Truth Hurts
Walt, Do you expect that *any sinner* who supports sin or openly proclaims that they consistently act out on their sinful inclinations will be accepted without challenge on a faithful Catholic website? I am truly sad for you. Your courage is being stunted by a perceived enemy. Walt, it seems that you are much more interested in deflecting the truth away from the heart of the matter. Instead of *clarifying the teachings* that Mark from PA or others distort , why are you more compelled or concerned with making excuses for those who detract from the fullness of faith? I also know a young Christian woman who was absolutely devastated to learn that her husband fooled her and married her to deflect attention away from his active homosexual life. This woman would heartily disagree with you that her experience in being deceived was a charitable social compliance or God's Will. I also know a woman who knowingly married a homosexual to share her life and have children with him. She has told me of her great loneliness. Her husband a non Catholic avoids her and asked her to stop attending Mass and she did on the advice of a priest who told her to respect her husband. Does this sound like the common good? One of the saddest facts that you, Walt yourself, have brought to light is the length and depth of driven energy that you will expend to avoid helping any homosexual to completely trust in the fullness of hope in Christ's Teachings that are clearly contained in the Catholic Church. Why do you do this Walt? Spiritual maturity can be witnessed in the lives of many of the very young Saints. Why at your age do you still run from the cross instead of embracing the Church's Teachings that give full meaning and purpose to your suffering? Where is your real faith Walt? If God is for you, who can be against you?
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:21 PM By Mark from PA
Walt, I will give you an example. A couple of years ago I called and talked to a priest who was listed as a contact for the Courage ministry in our diocese. A little while later I called back several times but only got an answering machine. After this happened for a couple of months, I got brave and left a message. Later that evening, I received a phone call. When I asked who it was, the priest answered in a surly voice, "Well who are you?" He would not give me his name. The man was so rude and insulting that I wondered why he even bothered to call me back. Since I had called this number I suppose the man made certain assumptions about me. But it did give me a little bit of insight about what gay people go through and how they are treated by some. Later I called and talked to a priest involved with Encourage. This priest told me that being gay was like having cancer. "You hate the disease but you love the person." I don't know if the guy realized what a horrible thing this was to say. I hope that he didn't say anything so dehumanizing to the parents in his Encourage group.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:25 PM By Mark from PA
"Jesus incinerated homosexual activitists." JLS, I have read all 4 gospels many times over. Please tell me where in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, you got that from? I think you must have gotten a copy of a Bible from Rev. Phelps. That certainly is not in any Catholic Bible.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:40 PM By Walt
TTH, I would not expect anyone, whether he's a sinner or Jesus himself, to be accepted on this website. Nowhere did I say every beard for all gay (or straight) people is always charitable social compliance to God's Will. I said "for MANY gay (and straight) people, wearing a beard is carrying out the Commandment to love." I said "for the good and safety of oneself and others, respect for privacy, the common good and duty to avoid scandal... AS SUCH.. [it] CAN in fact be compliance with the will of the Lord." As to your hearsay story about a "young Christian woman", suffice it to say, you've demonstrated such poor listening (and posting) skills that I'm obliged not to trust your version of things. But I will pray for you.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:46 PM By The Truth Hurts
Mark from PA, Last week I was asked by the family of a woman who died to help them find a Catholic Church that would have a funeral Mass for their daughter. The woman who died was in a semi-coma state for 17 years. She was the passenger in a car driven by her girlfriend when a stolen car being chased by the police at 90mph slammed head on into her car. Her head went through the windshield. Her parents heroically cared for her at their own home for 17 years. She was on a feeding tube and she was trach tubed and in diapers. She was 23 at the time of the accident. Her parents had not been practicing the faith at the time of the accident or during the 17 years. I visited the family during this time and asked several priests to come and anoint her over the years. The family was encouraged to trust in God. After she died a relative brought the mother of the deceased girl to her local parish to ask the priest if the funeral Mass could be held at this particular Church. The priest who is good in many ways also has a great reputation for being very rude and scary. He asked them many questions in an unkind manner and then told them that he had to go say Mass and that he would call them back to let them know. The mother and father were absolutely crushed at the insensitivity shown. They said that they would never go back. The next Sunday I heard this very same priest challenge his flock to recognize Christ in the face of a stranger and to reach out to the hurting. Your experience of calling the priest who was rude when you were stepping out in courage to do the right thing is also very hurtful. So as Catholics what do we do Mark? We cannot throw the baby out with the bath water of hurtful experiences. We can learn from each other. These priests who are sometimes very rude could learn much from you about patience and charity. You, on the other hand , could learn to love the authentic truths that are taught in the Catholic Faith. cont.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:35 PM By The Truth Hurts
Mark from PA, When the family called me to explain that they needed a Catholic Church to have a funeral Mass I listened for a while while the grieving relative angrily and hurtfully complained about their treatment. They told me how many relatives of theirs left the Church because of this type of unkindness. Mark, Should I have directed them to start a new religion by distorting the teachings like you have, based on their hurtful experience? Should you or I both call a spade a spade when someone is cruel? Absolutely! Well, the same goes for steering away from the authentic teachings Mark. Take your desire to be charitable and supernaturally infuse it with loyalty and obedience to Christ's Church. Find a faithful priest who does not just tickle your ears with empty promises. Being friendly does not always insure loyalty to the Magisterium, Yes Mark, and sometimes the gruff priests are the most faithful. There is a *great need for courageous men* to defend the hope that comes with fidelity to Church Teaching. In defense of the priest who was annoyed because he was unfamiliar with the family, it *is important* to belong to a parish. This would have been less painful. Much in the same way Mark, the obstinate sinner who gambles with his eternity and cavalierly thinks that he does not need to repent until later, might not be given the opportunity. Seek and you shall find. God provided a beautiful Catholic funeral Mass for this family. An eighty-nine year old Catholic priest encouraged the family to always be prepared to meet God. He encouraged them to pray for the souls of the dead. He said that the greatest tragedy for the family was not the car accident but to ignore the lessons of life about being ready. He said that all sin stems from selfishness. I will not serve you God..... Mark., Will you put aside your hurt and serve God unselfishly by committing to follow the authentic teachings? I sure hope so. Many souls could be influenced for the good. The choice is yours.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:35 PM By JLS
PA, another gap in your true Catholic education? You never knew that Jesus exists with no beginning? Incredibel, PA. I thought all Catholic knew that. Do you imagine that He stood by in dissent when Sodom and Gomorrah were incinerated? PA, please enroll in an authentic Scripture and Doctrine course.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:39 PM By JLS
PA, the proper word for the disguise you describe is "persona". You talk up this deception as if it were a virtue of courage, and trash talk bullying for the sake of righteousness. Will the real PA please stand up?
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:47 PM By Canisius
The stories of "brave" homosexuals (sodomites) really make me sick, they deceive women, marry them and then cause them to suffer so much heart ache. And they wonder why they are hated so much.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:38 PM By Marita
There are many women who marry gay men even though they suspect or well know the man is gay. They often bring the heartache on themselves and then, as convenient to themselves later on, may blame the gay man, as if he was less confused than she was. Some women hit on gay men because they find it a sporting test of their femininity or because they feel "safe" to do so. Some will take their test all the way to marriage and beyond. Meanwhile society pressures gay men to "be straight" and marry. Women, men, society reaps what it sows and what it doesn't. Nevertheless, society will by and large blame the gays. It's just so convenient.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:39 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, Sodom and Gomorrah were not towns filled with homosexual activists. They were filled with nasty, inhospitable people. Jesus wasn't in this story. Jesus is true God and true man and he was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary. You have your own take on Sodom and Gomorrah but this is not what I was taught in 12 years of Catholic school. I never heard all this hatred of homosexual people either in all my years in Catholic school. We read many of the gospel stories in grade school and we heard Jesus message of love. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. These are the two great commandments, not hate people who are different from you.
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Posted Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:56 PM By Mark from PA
Thanks for sharing that story The Truth Hurts. Those priests did not really hurt me. They just gave me the brush off so I didn't bother them any more. The lesson I get is "Don't be like that." I am lucky that I do know several very fine priests. In fact, a priest that I am close to just told me about having the recently deceased Archbishop of Haiti as a guest in his parish several years ago. My friend has met many of the leaders of the Church.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 12:00 AM By The Truth Hurts
Dear Walt, Thank-you for saying that you will pray for me. I won't be mean-spirited and pre-suppose that your offer to pray for me is hearsay. I will believe what you posted about praying for me and I will appreciate it. How long have you been carrying such a deep hurt and bitterness? The reason that you don't think Jesus or any sinner would be accepted on this website is because you are the one who refuses to see Christ in anyone who even mildly disappoints you. Everyone is lumped into another one of those betrayer categories. Are you the one who has lost sight of the many beautiful trees in the forest because one tree was removed from your life? Was that one tree more important than the Creator of all forests? If the answer is yes, this is why you no longer see the forest for the trees. I will pray for you too Walt!
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:35 AM By Aaron
Marita: Thank you for your insightful 8:38 PM contribution to this one sided discussion. Mark from PA: I also have read ALL the gospels. Jesus NEVER EVEN MENTIONED homosexuals; he taught that people should "love your neighbor as yourself!" I am certain Jesus looks down from heaven, astonished at the hate expressed on this website.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 5:18 AM By Mark from PA
"And they wonder why they are hated so much!" Isn't it sad. If a gay person marries someone of the same sex, they are hated. If they marry someone of the opposite sex, they are hated. If they don't tell people they are gay, they are hated. If they are openly gay, they are hated. If they are priests, they are hated. The only ones that aren't hated are those that kill themselves to escape the hate. (I realize that most people don't hate gay people and society as a whole is becoming more tolerant and accepting. I am just making a point here because sadly there are some people that do hate gay people.) Marita made a good point. When discussing same sex marriage, the Catholic Church and many Catholics pretty much have the philosophy that gay people can marry, they just can't marry people of the same sex.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 6:34 AM By Canisius
PA you post so many irrelevant comments, who cares how many leaders of the Church your friend is met.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 12:22 PM By The Truth Hurts
Aaron, Why didn't you just thank Walt for Marita's insightful comments? Walt also curiously seems to use the same words, [suffice it to say] and posting brackets as John Maguire, but the same truth will forever apply to each or any personality that is employed to try to confuse others and rationalize sin because of a particular cross. There is *One* clear Authentic Truth that applies to every kind of sinner, newly divised moniker maker or circumstance of life. This truth is ccontained in the Teachings of the Catholic Church. No matter how *many* embarrassingly transparent new monikers are thought up, new names who passionately and instantaneously just happen to drop in from outer space to bolster up the same arguement, it all still boils down to selfishness. "I WILL NOT SERVE" Yes, Aaron, even you have rejected the narrow path. "Enter by the narrow gate, For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there are who enter that way. How narrow the gate and close the way that leads to life! And few there are who find it. Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Matthew 7: 13-15
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:41 PM By The Truth Hurts
Cansius, When I read Mark from PA's response, I thought the very same thing as your post. I think that Mark's response can be instructive to demonstrate his great disconnect in recognizing the suffering of an authentic victim. Mark never misses an opportunity to bring up and elaborate on the people's 'feelings' who were hurt by Rev. Phelps because it all reverts back to protecting the right to sin. Mark is not the least bit interested in protecting, upholding or supporting God's Divine Right and Master Plan for men and women. Mark could not take the focus off of his own homosexuality for more than a second. I know that Mark F would refer to this as the quicksand of conversation and time for sandal dusting. Don't worry Mark F, It is not our job to convince anyone but it is our job to tell them the truth. God knows Mark from PA's true intentions for consistently distorting the Teachings of the Catholic Faith on this Catholic website. A faithful priest once told me that it is very difficult for homosexuals to break away from the grips of their own thoughts. Mark F and others have shown that with God it is still challenging but very possible. Mark from PA quickly ran away from the subject of the 17 year horrific suffering of an innocent girl, her family, and the priest's homily to be prepared to face God. Thanks for sharing that story! You'd think that I just told him about a new Tupperware product that a big seller. Thanks for Sharing! This response by sad design is all that Mark from PA can muster up because the message of real horrific suffering takes the focus away from his suffering being the *only* kind of suffering on the planet. Mark is so habitually single focused that he thought that bringing up his priest meeting church leaders would somehow make things sound fine and dandy. My first thoughts were...."Well, since Mark from PA is so misguided by his own priest, I wonder if those church leaders included Archbishop Weakland and Bishop Daniel Ryan.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:57 PM By Walt
TTH, do you even know what hearsay is? That I tell you "I will pray for you" is not hearsay because I have told it to you directly. But if I were to tell you, "A friend of mine says she will pray for you," then that would be hearsay. Likewise, your telling me that a woman told you that her husband said X and her priest said Y is hearsay, not only as to what she said but also as to what her husband and priest said. Even if the woman herself were to tell me that her husband said X and her priest said Y, that too would be hearsay as to what she heard. But if her husband and priest were to tell me directly themselves, that would not be hearsay. It's no more "mean spirited" to say hearsay is hearsay than to say blue is blue. And as to whether a sinner or Jesus would be accepted on this website, if you reject me in any way on this website, then you have not accepted a sinner or Jesus on this website. Your claim that "you are the one who refuses to see Christ in anyone who even mildly disappoints you" is your self-description. I have not said I'm disappointed in anyone, for disappointment requires an expectation but as I have clearly said, I would not expect anyone to be accepted on this forum. You do not disappoint me in that. You can only prove what I say.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 2:16 PM By Canisius
Aaron, you know what Christ is more astonished at when people like you and your ilk have tried to turn sodomy into a sacrament. You accuse faithful Catholics of bigotry because we don't accept your kinds war on the natural moral law, and how your generation "sexual revolution" destroyed more families than can be counted. I accuse you, and people like PA and Grisha with your liberal ideology of turning the social order upside down in the name of tolerance.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 6:06 PM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, it is very sad that the family you mentioned did not practice their faith during the 17 years that their daughter was gravely disabled. You didn't say but I hope that they were able to be welcomed back into the arms of the Church and become active members of a parish. Again, I don't feel that I was badly hurt by any priests. In regard to Archbishop Weakland and Bishop Daniel Ryan. I don't think these two bishops are comparable. From what I have read, Bishop Ryan was a deeply disturbed man, he was an alcoholic and possibly a sex addict. This man should never have been named a bishop in my opinion. Archbishop Weakland was a highly respected Archbishop. He publicly apologized and asked for forgiveness for his sins. Yes, the man is a sinner but I feel that he is also a person of integrity. He was accused of date rape but I believe that this was a lie. The accusation came 17 years after the fact and the accuser had used his friendship with the Archbishop to get money out of him. I think the Archbishop was stupid but not evil. The big mistake was that Church lawyers made a settlement with his accuser. The Archbishop has stated that he broke off his friendship with the man because it was a danger to his commitment to celibacy.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 7:30 PM By The Truth Hurts
Walt, Since you post very similar to John Maguire and several other monikers, how do I know that anything comes directly from a Walt? Which one are you really, if any? It certainly might be moniker hearsay. Would a serial moniker changer's words hold up in a court of law? I chose to accept an offer of prayer even though I know you are not just Walt. Since you care to expound on the definition of hearsay, how about the definition of fraud or identity crisis or identity theft due to hidden agenda guilt? Also, you don't need to say you are disappointed in anyone or that you have no expectations of anyone on this website. Your extreme bitterness and false arrogance say it all for you. If disappointment requires expectations then you're in deep trouble Walt. I wonder what the real expectations were for someone who calls them self by many different names, but he was given the gift of a good intellect by God, to serve God, yet he disappointingly only served himself. Unless active hallucinations are in play here, you are disappointingly culpable.
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Posted Sunday, January 24, 2010 8:14 PM By The Truth Hurts
MarkfromPA, Mark its still a sign of pretty bad times when your Archbishops are having to deny date rape. I'm glad to hear that you were not badly hurt by any priests. Does this now mean that the grammar school priest who you have consistently brought up, didn't really ever do anything to make you bring him up as often as you have as an example of a cruel priest? You know, the one who only talked to and hung out with the popular guys and he also ignored you because you were not popular or a drinker? So now are you saying this never bothered or concerned you a bit and he was really not so bad after all?
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 12:37 AM By Aaron
Is there something wrong with a law (Defense of Marriage Act) that allows a guy who meets a prostitute in Moscow, marries her and subsequently is allowed to sponsor her for immigration, whereas I was refused the right to sponsor Tomas for a green card only because we are QUEER, even though (at that time) we had been together in a 100% monogamous relationship for 7 years, he had a university degree (I have MBA), I am financially comfortable and both of us have untarnished character? I completely understand St. Paul wrote that using your private parts with a same sex partner is unforgivable, but what does that have to do with immigration policy? How does my private behavior with Tomas threaten the institution of marriage or the Catholic church? I know some of you might want to reinstate 15th century Catholic church policy of burning us at the stake (aka murder) in order to protect the sanctity of the institution of marriage, but it seems a bit disordered for so called "good Catholics" to condone murder or force us into celibacy. Religious beliefs that become LAWS (Defense of Marriage Act) imposed on EVERYONE are immoral by definition. You should all move to Iran where they still kill homosexuals- but be careful, they KILL CHRISTIANS too! Such is the situation when religious beliefs become public policy. You may hate us, believe us to be immoral and going to hell, but your hate must never be become public policy. The Defense of Marriage Act is absurd. You can defend marriage ONLY by outlawing divorce!
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 4:52 AM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, in my opinion, Archbishop Weakland should have fessed up instead of having lawyers settle it. I can understand why he didn't want to be open about his oriention because gay people are considered inferior by the Catholic Church. If people found out he was gay, some people would automatically dislike him for this. It was a very humbling experience for him but he stated that he was overwhelmed by the love and compassion shown to him by others. He became even more aware of God's love and care for him through the care and concern of others.
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 5:34 AM By Canisius
I find it not suprising that PA defends the so called ArchBishop Weakland... what a joke
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 7:21 AM By The Truth Hurts
Mark from PA, I reflected on your first sentence comment above about how sad it was that the family of the young woman who was in a semi-coma for 17 years, who did not practice their faith during that time. Yes, it is sad Mark. There is a great parallel here to the sadness and circumstance of your life. You, on the other hand attend Mass faithfully and you teach children at your parish. You are there physically inside the church yet you do not truly believe, support or uphold the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church. You have the strong desire to be inside the building but not a strong desire to follow the authentic teachings of Christ's Catholic Church. You even distort the teachings of the Catholic Church on a Catholic website. I sure hope that you teach the children from the Catechism so they won't be confused also. The family of the girl who was in a semi-coma for 17 years did not physically enter a Catholic Church during this time but they would never ever try to distort the true teachings of the Catholic Faith to others because of their suffering or cross. They would never think to visit a Catholic website to encourage others who were also suffering to offend God by misrepresenting what the Catholic Church really teaches. This family also has a homosexual relative who they love very much. The homosexual relative is not practicing the faith either but he would never attempt to distort the teachings of the Catholic Church to rationalize offending God. Meanwhile he feels unworthy to enter a Catholic Church because he understands that his lifestyle choices are incompatible with God's Laws. Now as Catholics we understand that we are all sinners and that not one of us is really deserving of the awesome gifts that God has bestowed on us. Every homosexual and every heterosexual is welcome inside the Catholic Church. What is not welcome is the distortion of lies regarding Church Teaching that rationalize or support actions that are offensive to God.
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 9:06 AM By The Truth Hurts
Aaron, Excuses, Excuses, and more Excuses in your futile quest of searching out foolish ways and political methods to offend God. Aaron are you so far gone that you have forgotten that all governments or political institutions are only given power specifically because Almighty God allows it? Has your lust blinded you to such a degree that you have forgotten that at the snap of a finger that God could annihilate everything that stands? Yes, I guess you have forgotten that because you obstinately grumble and whine as if God is not the Divine Authority in charge over *EVERYTHING*. Maybe the word "QUEER" that you used in your last post should tell you to "Q"uit "U"tilizing "E"very "E"nticing "R"ebellion, because you will never find true peace when you are grievously offending God. You are no spring chicken Aaron, stop your tirade to embrace mortal sin before it is too late! It's time to clean out the filth in the chicken coup and get your spiritual roost in order, for this night your very soul may be called to give an account.
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 9:27 AM By Canisius
Aaron I noticed that you could not respond to my posting, I guess when faced with Truth your progressive mind shuts down
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 3:50 PM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, in response to 1/24, 8:14 PM. You ask me if the priest that taught me in high school was not that bad after all. I need to repeat that I only found out that the man was a predator a little over a year ago, shortly before I started commenting on CCD. I was very upset to find out what the man had done to innocent teens. This is what upsets me so, not how he treated me in high school. I didn't really think a lot about this man until I found out about the things that he did. When he taught me in high school I respected him because he was a priest. He passed himself off as a paragon of virtue and perfection and I didn't quite buy it. When I was a teen I never knew that such a thing as sexual abuse of children existed. I was innocent and sheltered in that way. The idea that a priest would do such things to a young person was completely beyond my comprehension. I respected this priest also for the good that he did. A friend and classmate of mine was terminally ill and this priest did much to help this boy and also his family. He loved this boy very much and was devastated when he died, as we all were. It was hard for me as I pretty much kept my feelings bottled up about this, even though it was painful. I felt bad for the priest and had sympathy for him because this boy was his favorite. When he wasn't nice to me I felt bad because I thought that he resented me because I was alive and his favorite kid was gone. After I found out about (last year) what the priest had done, I was horrified because I realized that before my friend was sick, this guy probably had a physical relationship with him. I think it is important for people to talk about things like this because it is extremely important that our young people be protected.
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Posted Monday, January 25, 2010 6:07 PM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, you say to Aaron, "has your lust blinded you?" I have been reading the posts here and early on from what I have read I understood that Aaron's relationship with Tomas is NOT about lust. Relationships based on lust alone do not last because they are not really relationships.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:40 AM By The Truth Hurts
Mark from PA, I thought that you said that you were not badly hurt by any priests on January 24, 6:06??? Then on January 25, 3:50 you spent the entire post talking about the same priest and how he hurt someone else and how much that affected you? Mark this is not consistent .This is the quicksand method that never works. Your story is sinking now Mark because you flip flopped. Do you realize it? Probably not, but it is important to point out for the sake of clarifying your inconsistent reports on really being a victim. Don't you at least want to appear consistent if you are going to try and sway people to accept you as a poorly treated victim who deserves the right to tell other homosexuals that it is OK to offfend God? This is a way to paint a favorable dialogue of you being the victim which is false. So you thought that the priest wished you were dead instead of the other KID who died, but he never hurt you that bad. Wow Mark! Do you always refer to a young high school student who lost his life as the KID who was gone? That is not very sensitive and feeling language for someone who complains about people being unfeeling and cruel to them. That is horribly hurtful to be wished dead by a priest, even a predator. So my point is, were you hurt or not? Which story suits the victimization platform of selling or supporting homosexual sin? Secondly, you do not follow or believe in the Teachings of the Catholic Church so this is your reason or purpose for promoting Aaron's and other sinful relationships. I have not once heard you promote a chaste relationship to Aaron? If you have the courage to tell everyone on a Catholic website that you are a bi-sexual married man, father, and CCD teacher then you should have no problem reminding Aaron to remain chaste. That is real love. Otherwise the jig is up Mark. Also Mark if your story about the dying boy and the heartbroken priest demonstrate just one of the many reasons that homosexuals should not become priests.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:34 AM By Aaron
Canisius: Sorry, I didn't mean to overlook your comment. Turning society upside down? I hardly think so. Gays have 100% equal rights in Spain, UK, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, South Africa, Canada. I can't speak of the other countries, but having lived in Spain for 2 years, I can tell you that Spanish society did NOT turn upside down. Every day, traditional marriages go on; babies are born; people go to church/synagogue. Sodomy into a sacrament? Whoa. I have been accused of many things-that's a new one. For the record, I believe in strong families; strong traditional marriages. Tomas and I care for each other; support each other; we have had a 100% monogamous relationship for 9 years! We laugh & cry together-it isn't all about sex! We are just like an old married couple!!! What do I criticize? The 50% divorce rate;half of USA kids 18 & under live in single parent homes; I criticize the Council of Bishops supporting laws that discriminate against people like me-the consequence being that I had to move to Spain because DOMA provided that any gay, no matter how talented, no matter how much they have contributed to society, no matter anything-if you are gay you cannot, under any circumstances, sponsor your partner for a green card. I also criticize the Catholic church history for burning at the stake-murdering homosexuals-in the 15th century-just as I criticize Muslims for the same practice today. Responsible governments must be secular: Jerry Falwell/CCB /Mormons/ evangelical churches have no business trying to get lawmakers to create phony laws that take rights away from a minority. That's all=nothing more. I only want gays to have equal rights as they do in CANADA (which, by the way, did NOT fall apart when they recognized gay marriage). Call me anything-damn me to hell-but give us equal rights and I will shut up!
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:58 AM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, that priest never touched me. This is what I mean by not being hurt. I did not know that he was a predator. I was upset to find out (in 2008) what he had done to others. So I wasn't victimized by the man. He may have treated me poorly on occasion but he didn't abuse me. Mostly he just ignored me. I see my experience as just part of growing up. I said that I thought maybe the priest would have preferred if I had died instead of my friend. He never said this. This was how I felt and how I rationalized the way he treated me. The thing I was upset about was my friend dying. I probably could have benefited from counseling to deal with this. However, the priest that I was talking about was in charge of boy's guidance at my school so looking back and considering his relationship with my friend who died, this would not have been a good idea. How does my horror at a priest abusing kids and speaking out against such abuse consist of selling or supporting sin? I have no idea what that priest's sexual orientation was or if he ever had any contact with adults. I thought that he was celibate. He may have been fixated on a certain age group. Yes, I would encourage Aaron to promote chastity in his relationship with Tomas but for all I know they are chaste.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:28 PM By The Truth Hurts
Jim, Prayer for Priests. O My Jesus, I beg You on behalf of the whole Church: Grant it love and the light of Your Spirit, and give power to the words of priests so that hardened hearts might be brought to repentance and return to You, O Lord. Lord give us holy priests. You Yourself maintain them in holiness. O Divine and Great High Priest, may the power of Your mercy accompany them everywhere and protect them from the devil's traps and snares which are continually being set for the souls of priests. May the power of Your mercy, O Lord, shatter and bring to naught all that might tarnish the sanctity of priests, for You can do all things. AMEN.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:20 PM By The Truth Hurts
Mark from PA, Praise God! Thank you for encouraging Aaron and Tomas to be chaste. I am sure that if you post those words to Aaron that you will be helping him immensely. Aaron's rejection of the Catholic Church's teachings gives you a little window of his thinking when it comes to following the teachings on sexual morality. When it comes to truly loving a friend it is better to be safe with loving guidance than sorry later for your silence. There is nothing more precious to God than your soul, Aaron's soul and every soul on earth. Better to have loved with truthful instruction than to lose that immortal soul for eternity.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:43 PM By Mark from PA
From the Catechism some thoughts on Chastity for The Truth Hurts and Aaron. "Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spirtual being." "The virtue of chastity involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift." "The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship." "Friendship represents a great good for all, it leads to spiritual communion." This is surely something for us all to strive for. Peace and blessings to you.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:08 PM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, it has crossed my mind that perhaps the priest disliked me because he thought that I was gay and he disliked gay people. That thought would not have occurred to me when I was a teen. I hope that you understand this now.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:01 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Tomas and his "partner" are not celebate. He has said so on this on CalCath a couple of times. Are you really that naive to believe they are not having sex?
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:36 PM By Mark from PA
RR, in truth other people's private sex lives are really none of my business. The Catechism urges people to strive for Christian perfection but how many of us are actually perfect? I'm not. We are all works in progress.
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Posted Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:53 PM By JLS
PA, it is gays who dislike gays; they hate themselves and thus those like themselves. He may have been hitting on you by means of trying to emote with you. As you know, PA, the homosexual community plays subtley crafty games. Your own rhetoric along with a few others would jump on a blogger who expressed even the slightest agreement with your errant little queries. This blogging here is like a practice course for spiritual warfare.
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:44 AM By Aaron
JLS: Your 8:53 comment is unworthy of a response. Seems you may need professional counseling..
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 AM By Mark from PA
JLS, I said that I did not know this man's orientation. He didn't hate himself, he was somewhat self-absorbed. He called himself "the perfect one." No, he definitely was not hitting on me or trying to emote with me, I stated that he pretty much ignored me. He emoted with some of the girls in my class that he was friendly with but he had disdain for me.
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:08 AM By RR
Their sex life becomes everyone's business when they come on a public, Catholic site and try to get Catholics to agree, condone, and accept their filthy, evil, immoral, deviant, disgusting, perverted... sex life.
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:13 AM By Mark from PA
JLS, I have come to the conclusion though, that the man was no danger to me. Even if he had tried something, I would have run in the other direction and stayed the heck away from him. Still, it is painful to me to think of those he harmed and drove from the Church. RR, someone tells about caring for someone, supporting someone and laughing and crying with someone and look at what you reduce it to in your comment of 5:08 AM. Yes, it is sad when people do evil things but I think it is wrong when someone has to tar a whole group of people with the same brush. Not all people are called to celibacy but we are called to strive to lead a chaste life according to our station in life.
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:28 PM By John F. Maguire
I am not Walt -- have I ever used the "I'll pray for you" gambit to (unduly) sweeten my posts? Do I even think like him? (No.) More: I assure one and all, I am against all sock-puppeting in the blogosphere. I am against the use of monikers, a cowardly practice unless it is done with just cause. Have I not called upon the CCD editor to break away from the hegemony of anonymity, which is so strongly correlated with blogging irresponsible posts.
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Posted Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:13 PM By RR
Mark from PA: What the heck are you talking about in your post to me @ 11:13 A.M.? What does what I have to say about an active homosexual lifestyle have to do with as I quote you, "caring for someone, supporting someone and laughing and crying with someone and look at what you reduce it to in your comment of 5:08 AM?" You lost me here on this one. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:48 AM By Mark from PA
RR, I am referring to Aaron's comment of 8:34 AM. Aaron also said that he believed in strong marriages and traditonal families.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:00 AM By The Truth Hurts
John Maguire, Oh I get it! If Catholics clarify and defend all of the Church's Teachings on a blogosphere it's sock-puppeting. But if the very well known name of John Maguire socks the heck out of pro-life by supporting a dissenting and confused professor that makes everything OK. Wow! What an interesting form of self promotion. John, how long have you been playing by John Maguire's peculiar rules instead of totally supporting God's Laws? Are you embarrassed to challenge Mark from PA when he dissents? Please don't repeat the sad response of "It's not my job" "I am not my brother's keeper" "I am John Maguire and that fact enough, supersedes the Laws of God" The last time I visited the Catholic Catechism it stated clear instruction to love and serve God with our whole heart, mind and soul above all things....including Professor Doug Kmiec's half baked ideas. We are also instructed to love our neighbor as ourself. Now you may feel comfortable with loving Professor Kmiec as you do yourself, but truly loving one's neighbor means charitably instructing them when they dissent on a Catholic website.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:59 AM By RR
Mark from PA: Come on, Mark. He blasts Catholic teaching and condemns the Church so many times in that post and the ONLY thing you pick out from that is that he supossedly believes in "strong marriages and traditonal families." Yeah, right! Please, give me a break!
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:02 AM By Ski Ven
I think Maguire's anonymity is strongly correlated with his tendency to threaten people that can't touch him.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:45 PM By Mark from PA
RR, you and Aaron may have differences with certain Church teachings but the comments I find upsetting are the personal attacks on him as a fellow Christian and human being. I find him to be a person of integrity and your comments of 5:08 AM are degrading and dehumanizing. Please note that Aaron said, "It isn't all about sex."
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:54 PM By John F. Maguire
TTH: Sock-puppeting, in its primary journalist sense, refers to an editor (whether print or electronic) who (1) refuses to disclose his or her identity in violation of readers' rights and (2) uses a moniker or a pseudonym to post in the very newspaper or website he or she's editing. ~ My call to the CCD is not a threat but an invitation to conform to the ethics of the profession of journalism and to the requirements of canon law. Even as I reiterate this call, I don't do so anonymously -- I do so in my own name.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 5:38 PM By John F. Maguire
For the record, I've disagreed several times on this website with Douglas Kmiec's two-track speculation on the question on the civil-definition-of-marriage question. Those marriage-posts are relatively recent posts of mine on Doug Kmiec. The bulk of my posts on Professor Kmiec you'll find published more than a year ago. I applauded then, and I applaud now, Doug Kmiec's recognition that the Scalian approach to abortion jurisprudence is mistaken in its failure to recognize a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of preborn infants to live out their lives. If I am not mistaken, Kmiec's approach to abortion jurisprudence -- I mean, within our fundamental agreement that the right to life is to be found in the Organic Law of the United States -- is a shade of a shadow different from mine. (1) As a matter of Constitutional law, I locate the right to life of the preborn infant in the material logic of the legal term *person* on the understanding that the term *person* in the Fourteenth Amendment intends all living human bodies, preborn infants included. To my knowledge however, Professor Kmiec has not written EXPRESSLY on the question of material-legal logic. (2) As a number of my posts suggest, I am indebted to Joseph W. Dellapenna's disclosure of the common law basis of the right of preborn infants to live out their lives. (I take it that Doug Kmiec has taken Dellapenna's work into account.) Withal, so incomprehending and so vicious have been the attacks on Doug Kmiec on this website (probably, in fine, on account of his Obama endorsement) that sheer intellectual justice to this fine University of Pepperdine law professor required me throughout -- and requires me now -- to defend him on those points (but no more than those points) upon which I find myself in agreement with him.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 7:09 PM By Mark from PA
That is interesting Mr. Maguire. I never heard of sock-puppeting. So you have taught me something (yet again) here. Thanks.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 7:53 PM By RR
Mark from PA: My words are not what is dehumanizing or degrading. What is dehumanizing and degrading are the sex acts that Tomas and his gay lover engage in. That is what is disgusting. I never said he or his lover were not human. I said their sexual acts were evil, perverse, disgusting, sinful, deviant... and I stand by my words. Also, he may or may not be a man of integrity, but their sex acts are definately all of the above.
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:18 PM By The Truth Hurts
John Maguire, Don't you find it the least bit troubling that you are inviting the CCD editors to conform to journalistic ethics when on a daily basis they apply broad ranged good sensory actions and desire to teach the True Faith? CCD has us reading, instructing and they are exposing the many false concepts of our faith. How about your ignored invitation to give some sensory memory work regarding the Spiritual Works of Mercy? You appear embarrassed or for some lame excuse, unwilling to give any misguided soul important ethical or spiritual instruction! Yet you want to instruct CCD. St. Thomas Aquinas believed that human beings can acquire concepts only by abstracting forms from sense and appearance. He insisted that without some sensory input on which the mind's abstractive power could get to work, no concepts would ever be constructed, nor would any rational activity take place: there are no "innate ideas". Any actual use of concepts in thinking and willing must,-- at least in this life, in which the soul is embroiled--be **constantly** referred to sense content, either of perception or **memory** or imagination. This necessary human orientation to sensory data is what Aquinas called 'conversion to sense experience' (conversio ad phantasmata). Hey Mr. Silently Unethical Pot...Stop calling the Good Concept Kettle Black!
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:23 PM By Tom
Mr. Maguire, do you have a blog or website of your own?
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Posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:19 PM By Abeca Christian
RR not only the homosexual acts are evil but so are the thoughts that people dwell in day in and day out, only the Lord knows them very well too, also know that sometimes even undressing someone with their own eyes can be considered a sin when people don't have the temperance to stop those thoughts but they let them linger on and on. Those sins found hidden in ones own heart are just as sinful because sooner or later when one does not try to be temperate, then they may fall into the very act of what they were doing in their own thoughts. There you see lust evolving.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 8:39 AM By Ski Ven
Oh please Maguire, you could be anyone. No one here knows who you are, where you work, where you live, or where you shop except for any of your friends, relatives, or co workers who visit this site. Who do you think you are kidding? If you were standing in front of me I don't think you would be man enough to threaten me like you have done in the past through this website. Tell me Maguire, if I don't back down from you in regards to the Kennedy Funeral, would you willing to personally stop me from receiving communion? What do you have say, tough guy?
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 9:25 AM By John F. Maguire
Tom, thank you for asking -- and thank you for the thought. But the idea of a website would be for me not even a velleity (to use an old-fashioned scholastic term), that is, not even a weekly-formed wish!
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 10:11 AM By John F. Maguire
GOD is GOD. ~ The self-assertion of one-third of the host of angels in heaven in promoting themselves above God is necessarily an abject revolt, a futilitarian revolt. A stupendous PRIDE, according to Thomas Aquinas, motivated the revolt of the angels. A tremendous ENVY, according to John Duns Scotus, motivated the rebel angels --envy of HUMANITY, which envy was immediately sealed by these angels' NO to God's plan that His only-begotten Son become MAN -- by-passing, as it were, the aeveternal domain of the angels. By-passed! We, some angels said to themselves, are not to be by-passed. Whence Lucifer's and his angels' revolt against God and their war against Michael and his angels, all of whom had, in humility, accepted the divine condescension that is God's Eternal Word -- the Second Person of the Trinity -- BECOME MAN. ~ The Dominican Aquinas and the Franciscan Scotus are both Doctors of the Church -- and both are right: The PRIDE/ENVY that motivated the angelic revolt is radically futile because it is radically impossible for a creature to succeed at placing himself above his Creator. The Christian faithful know why: Created being (angels, men and women, the cosmos) is finite being; uncreated Being (God himself) is infinite Being.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 10:32 AM By The Truth Hurts
Dear CCD Editors, I truly believe that John F. Maguire's and other occasional complaints about your fine work stem from one single goal. As you well know there are true enemies of our Catholic faith in many varying degrees. Some inculpable, some not so subtle and some very obvious. The terrible sex abuse scandals that caused the brave victims to come forward have done a great service to the Church. Evil was hidden and protected and no one dared to say a negative thing about this reality until the brave victims. Also hidden and protected was the liberal and homosexual agenda that has undermined Church Teaching. They did not rely on God's Teachings they relied on using their own unfertile soil to plant bad trees that produced the rotten fruit of the sex abuse scandals. All of this pain and suffering due to SILENCE brought forth the good fruit of victims EXPOSING the horrific truth. Thank you for exposing the unfertile soil that has made our Catholic Church appear and feel at times like barren land. It is very important to understand that the scandals did not grow out of Holy Truth and goodness. The reason this evil havoc reached such a vile and putrid pinnacle state is that everyone who was authentically Catholic was either banished, fired, removed, punished, but most of all SILENCED. Then Chanceries,Seminaries, Parishes and Schools were taken over with like-minded dissenters or they brought in unsuspecting new Catholics who were misguided and taught error and therefore they also unknowingly taught error. Well, we all know how much the darkness hates the CCD LIGHT OF DAY. Only recently this truth has been able to be exposed and the old powers are very angry and resentful at anyone who dares to expose the great loss of True Faith. I am so appreciative of your daily sacrifice to charitably help all souls, including the souls of the dissenters who have had so much free reign to bully behind the scenes SILENTLY attempting to destroy Authentic Catholic Teachings.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 11:09 AM By Mark from PA
RR, they haven't told you what sex acts they engage in. You don't know what they do. I think it is rude to speculate on this. Why in the world would people inquire into other people's intimate practices? I would NEVER ask you what intimate things you do as a) this would be offensive and b) it is none of my business. Do you understand what I mean here? I think it is important that people respect one another.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 11:42 AM By Ski Ven
Quote from Peter from the Mentally disturbed or something thread: "LOL ! Editor - Has it ever occurred to you that CalCath is providing a venue for ten posters who could easily be voted the creepiest people on the planet? The top 5 are regularly represented here for sure! Aren't you concerned that these people are the face of your web-site - let alone Catholicism in general? Ick. Talk about undermining something otherwise well intended. And the church is orchestrating a "come home" campaign. Blame the bishops, but who in their right mind would want to come home to Canisius or his hero JLS. Run away silly rabbits. Run as fast as you can." Response from PA: "Oh my gosh, Peter, you have me laughing here. LOL I have to admit that some of the things that some people say here are scary." Quote from PA in this thread: "I think it is important that people respect one another." Hmmmmn, something does not add up here.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 12:41 PM By John F. Maguire
TTH: Why do you associate me with the parade of horribles you line up? As regards to both pedophiliac and ephebophiliac predatory-behavior on the part of clerics, that I denounced on this website as "execrable" and I (speculatively) identified this clerical epidemic as the upshot of an episcopal refusal to strictly conform to a directive issued by Pope John XXIII. Moreover, I underscored this refusal as the beginning of the problems to which you allude. ~ On your second point, I am happy to speak of *the Catholic light of day* but the CCD is too much of a mixed bag -- too many posts are informed by faulty catechesis, too many posts depart from the ethos of Catholic Christianity -- that identifying the light of day with the CCD is analogous to identifying the Truth with oneself. But TTH -- or rather The Truth Hurts -- isn't that what you've done?
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 1:38 PM By Canisius
TO Ski, you have understand something about the "progressive" mind, it does not understand or accept reality or morality, they are all morally bankrupt. They are hypocrites to tenth degree and when you confront them they change the subject or scream"hate crime". PA wil never admit to being wrong.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 2:59 PM By Mark from PA
Well, Ski Ven, it is a good thing that I am an observant Catholic because if I was a lapsed Catholic and I was thinking of "coming home" I think being called what you called me on "She never gets one fact right" would be enough to send me running for the exit. I guess you didn't get the point of Peter's comment. Saying that some of the things that people say are scary is not the same as expressing hatred towards a person or group of people.
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Posted Friday, January 29, 2010 9:45 PM By The Truth Hurts
John F. Maguire, CCD is analogous to identifying the Truth with oneself? Too many posts are informed by faulty catechesis that depart from the ethos of Catholic Christianity? Not one word on the faulty catechisis of Mark from PA, just corrections for CCD and victoriag, a sex abuse victim. Stop your departing when it come to showing the ethos of Catholic Christianity and lovingly instruct. Be a role model on this Catholic website. All employees in a Catholic School (whether they are Catholic or not), sign a morals clause in their employment agreement that they maintain by *word* and *actions* a position of a *role model* and witness to the Gospel of Christ that is in *conformity* with the teachings standards, doctrines, laws and norms of the Church. Parents of students in the school scrimp and save to be able to pay tuition every month. How would you like to be paying hundreds of dollars a month so that your child can get a good education and a good moral base on which to build their lives in this ever increasing immoral world and then discover that his or her teacher is living a life completely against the Catholic ethos. CCD has demonstrated incredible Christianity to Mark from PA by letting him post words that are not in conformity with the teachings standards, doctrine and laws. They allow this so that Mark will be instructed.Mark may still reject it, but he'll read it. You are the one who departs from the true meaning. Since Catholic ethos is the fundamental values exclusive to Catholic Christianity, start helping Mark when he errors like you were able to correct victoriag. Catholic ethos teaches us that Mark from PA is just as worthy in the eyes of God to receive instruction.when defining Church Teaching. Since everyone else is faulty but you, then lets see how well you can role model and help to teach him. That is the ethos of Catholic Christianity. Otherwise, your selective silence informs us John Maguire, that you are the very mixed bag of confusion.
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:28 AM By Mark from PA
The Truth Hurts, I have actually learned from Mr. Maguire by reading his posts. I have learned much from reading what a lot of people here have to say. I have also been informed by reading the articles. Since I live 3000 miles away I have learned things about the California bishops for example. Some of the lessons, unfortunately, have been sad ones.
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 12:33 PM By John F. Maguire
Victoria G.: I am saddened to learn that -- execrably --you've been subjected to sex-abuse. ~ If -- but I do not think too often -- I disagree on occasion with a post of yours, it is not because that post is not clearly stated and sincerely presented. You wouldn't want me, I don't think, to remain selectively silent regarding any blogger a priori, though I would want to reserve the blogger's right to be selective in practice. At the same time, I surely do not like the present regime, which is closer to a Calvinist "pew-inquisition" than it is to a Catholic discussion forum.
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 5:26 PM By Mark from PA
Mr Maguire, isn't it too bad that some people feel so threatened by your intelligence that they feel they have to take cheap potshots against you?
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 7:16 PM By Abeca Christian
PA you talk about respect towards each other, well I consider it disrespectful when I keep reading your posts that contradict church teachings, when are you gonna stop that. Since you believe in respect, maybe you can start your respect with the faith and Mother church!
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:37 PM By Tibor
Mark from PA - all sex acts between men are, perverse, disgusting, sinful, and deviant.
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Posted Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:53 PM By Tom
Tibor, in numbers, more sex acts between men and women are "perverse, disgusting, sinful, and deviant" than sex acts between men. Of course, we needn't limit it to sex acts, as just about everything someone might do, even acts between a husband and wife, can be made "perverse, disgusting, sinful, and deviant".
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:41 AM By RR
Tibor: I tried to reply to Mark from PA with the same comment, but for some reason the editor didn't post it. Maybe Mark from PA could tell us which sex acts performed by gays are not mortally sinful.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:14 AM By Mark from PA
I think the same sex act can be a mortal sin, a venial sin or not a sin at all depending on the circumstances. For example if a man got drunk and forced his wife to have sex this would be a mortal sin. It is not so much the act itself but the circumstances of the act that make it so sinful. Also it would be a mortal sin for a man to go to a prositute (male or female). I think it was a mortal sin for priests to have sex with minors, male or female. If they did anything in a church, I consider this to be a sacrilege. I do not think it would be a mortal sin for a gay couple who were members of the United Church of Christ and lived in Massachusetts and were legally married as well as married in their church, to have relations. I fully realize that even though these people would be married in the eyes of their Church, their marriage would not be considered a Sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Those who are married in a catholic church or are given dispensation to be married in another church are considered to be Sacramentally married. At any rate, I think some people spend too much time thinking about what sex acts other people do. If you think certain things are perverse and disgusting perhaps it is better not to spend time thinking about them.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:02 PM By Canisius
PA your quote 'I do not think it would be a mortal sin for a gay couple who were members of the United Church of Christ and lived in Massachusetts and were legally married as well as married in their church, to have relations" Is proof positive that you have zero business teaching religion to anyone who claims to be a Catholic.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:50 PM By RR
Mark from PA: We are talking here about gays that are supposedly Catholic. Do you consider homosexual sex done by men or women who claim to be Catholic are mortal sins? If they are Catholic and they know that the Church says it is mortally sinful, do you believe it is a mortal sin? You said, " I think it was a mortal sin for priests to have sex with minors, male or female." So does this mean it is not mortally sinful for a priest to have homosexual sex with adults, male or female? At any rate, I think you spend too much time coming on here and condoning and promoting approval of homosexual sex and making excuses for it. It's pretty hard not to think about these disgusting and perverse acts because there are people coming on here(a Catholic website) who claim to be Catholic claiming that it is totally normal to commit these acts and that these acts are not mortally sinful. And then there are people, such as yourself , making excuses for them and promoting and condoning their mortal sins. If you think homosexual acts are not perverse or disgusting then maybe you shouldn't refer to yourself as a Catholic because the Catholic Church says homosexual acts are mortal sins and it is against Catholic teaching. What are we to do then Mark from PA? Let you and others condone and promote homosexual acts here while we sit by and say and do nothing? I think, N-O-T! As long as there are people, such as yourself, coming on a Catholic website trying to get the Church and others to accept and condone the homosexual's disgusting and perverse lifestyle, we will think about it, talk about it, and condemn it. It's being shoved in our faces every day and we're not going to stand for it or accept it. If you want us to stop thinking about it maybe you and the gay community shouldn't come on here anymore and promote it.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:59 PM By Mark from PA
Canisius, if they were married in their Church they would not be considered to be committing adultery. Plus for a sin to be mortal the person would have to know that they were doing something seriously wrong. If either spouse had sex with a third party they would then be committing adultery. If two Muslim people are married, they are not married in a Sacramental sense, but are married in a legal sense and in the eyes of their faith.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:18 PM By Mark from PA
Yes, RR, it is mortally sinful for a priest to have sex with a man, it is mortally sinful for a priest to have sex with a woman. Priests take a vow of celibacy and must be faithful to this vow. If a priest converts from the Episcopal faith or Lutheran faith and is reconsecrated as a Catholic priest and is married and is given dispensation then it would not be a mortal sin for this priest to have sex with his wife. It would not be a sin for a married Eastern Rite priest to have sex with his wife. I have also stated before that I do not believe that teenagers should be sexually active. I don't think straight teenagers should be and I don't think gay teenagers should be either. If older teens are married then it is not a sin for them to have sex. I do not believe that all gay people live disgusting and perverse lifestyles.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:53 PM By Abeca Christian
We need to show these disgusting comments to PA's pastor, he needs to be removed from teaching religious education. Goes to show you that we need to monitor who also is teaching our children. A man or women with these anti-Catholic views, have no business teachings religious education. How can someone teach the faith when their views contradict the real faith of Jesus Christ! We need to change this about our church. It is no wonder our church is having many of these scandals and heresies happening. Our church needs to church it's people again and teach them the real teachings of the Church, only people who live holy and reverent and loyal, lives should be the ones teaching. Those who whole heartily embrace the church's teachings. Those who love Jesus more with not just words but with actions and one will know by their words and obedience.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:27 PM By Mark from PA
Abeca Christian, how is my response of 1:18 PM an anti-Catholic view? Do you consider me discussing priests in this way to be anti-Catholic? I probably should have just stuck with my ending comments of 10:14 AM and let it go at that. Sorry.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:12 PM By Mark from PA
I apologize to any who have been offended or upset by me giving examples of things that I consider to be mortal sins.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:52 PM By Abeca Christian
PA I am offended by your views on homosexuality, you have contradicted the teachings of the church over and over, you have twisted what is not holy and made it seem acceptable. You defy what the church teaches and evangelize it here on these posts. They are offensive to the faithful who wish and keep trying to submit to church teachings in Christ. You have shamed the faithful here, mocking all our strong convictions in truth. I wish I can accept your apology but you have caused much harm by your misleading posts here on this website. I hope that no one was mislead and I hope that people will choose to not stand by your views but will stand by Christ and His church on all moral teachings.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:16 PM By JLS
PA, when you make the gravity of sin the same in comparing same sex with natural sex, what you are doing is the old Protestant deception that all sins are equal in weight and seriousness. But this is not true. Homosexual activity is the consequence of sin. Normal adultry is not the consequence of sin, but is sin. Adultry is bad enough and so is idolatry, but these two will lead to a social condition of homosexuality, where the society no longer produces new people whom God can save for Himself. Rather homosexuality as the consequence of sin repudiates God's first command that man go and make babies. Adam and Eve said, "we will not serve", but they did go and have babies. Later on groups began saying not only that they would not serve God, but that they would prevent others from doing so ... that was the "inhospitality" aspect of Sodom and Gomorrah, which refused God His reason for creating man.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:49 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, priests and nuns do not have babies, but they serve. If a man rapes a woman I do not consider this to be "natural sex" but a grave evil.
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Posted Sunday, January 31, 2010 8:41 PM By JLS
Yes, PA, I figured I'd wait for you or someone else to bring this up, and then lend some perspective to it. Priests and nuns and some lay people serve God and neighbor as spiritual fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters always moving society towards the siring, bearing and raising of children. Certainly rape is an evil act. Is rape natural sex? Intriguing question: Nature in the animal kingdom has no rape as far as I know. But man rebelled against God, and the Fall dinged nature. So, when did man know that one man one woman was the order? Also, note that St Paul teaches that man and wife should not withhold the marriage act -- What is he telling us here? Where does nature give place to supernature? This, I think, really is the question here at the foundation where the answer would be found. Does sex have anything to do with consent? The homosexual lobby always talks about it in the foregone conclusion that if consent is present then it is natural. I knew a coed when I was in college who told me that she wanted to know what it was like being raped, and so she went out hitchhiking one day and got forcibly raped ... she told me this after the fact. It still does not make any sense to me. Was there any nature involved? Yet both parties consented to the deed. Was it really a rape, or was that simply what she called it? You should know that literature is filled with all manner of man/woman sex liaisons out of wedlock ... When did marriage find its institution? Did sexual events become more and more distant to what God wills until they somehow became socialized by civilizations prior to the advent of Abraham and then Jesus? Ie, when and how did pagan societies organize sex and was it natural always or sometimes or never? Does it matter now that we have Jesus to teach us? How did God's command to go and populate the earth define marriage, or did it? Was it trial and error that some societies thrived and others died according to how they arranged it?
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Posted Monday, February 01, 2010 8:10 PM By The Truth Hurts
John Maguire, In response to your false and very uncharitable accusations.......A guilty conscience is often it's own accuser! You, are the Calvinistic pew-sitter who is policing this website. Surely, you must realize that Calvin would have been so very proud of your silence when it comes to clarifying Catholic Church teaching. Be very weary of a pew-sitter who ignores error but attacks the people who are simply asking him to clarify the full truth of Church Teaching in the same manner he clarifies a partially correct professor. And John since you 'did' ooouch, squeeze some blood out of a turnip comment to victoriag, for your insensitive decision to get bold with the wrong person,..... I will be slightly compelled to be a little less harsh on you, than you're false accusations are to the CCD editor. Now, back to your focus on Calvin... Are you a modern day selective silence reformer?. Are you supporting an even broader movement of similar selective silence across all Catholic websites? You know what movement John Maguire? The same kind of selective silence movement that has wreaked havoc within many of our Catholic seminaries, universities, churches and schools.
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Posted Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:01 PM By John F. Maguire
Am I supporting a broader movement for the reform of Internet websites in the direction of the norm of civility as articulated by Pope Benedict XVI? Yes. Is such a reform analogous to old-Genevan style pew-inquisitions? No.
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Posted Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:36 PM By The Truth Hurts
John Maguire, Pope Benedict XVI would not consider avoiding the truth, normal or civil. The physician who deliberately hides the truthful diagnosis to his patient, unethically prolongs the suffering. Deliberately withholding the prescriptive remedy to a patient is also cruel. The Divine Physician's Truths should never be hidden. They should be clarified. Especially on a Catholic website.
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Posted Tuesday, February 02, 2010 3:24 PM By JLS
Maguire, you lip sync "civility" but you advocate politicians who increase abortion. What is your definition of "civility"?
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:49 PM By dave
Orthodox Jews are under no obligation to marry between ethnic jews and gentiles, even if gentiles convert to the jewish faith.
In fact, all religions are under no obligation to marry anyone for any reason if that's against their teachings even simply because of their history or personality.
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:13 PM By JLS
What do you mean by "personality", dave?
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Posted Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:15 PM By JLS
The norm of civility, Maguire, is governed by the truth; yet, you put it the other way around. I know what your rebuttal will be, but it won't work. You cannot govern the search for truth by civility. Why? Because civility is relative and truth is absolute.
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Posted Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:59 AM By JLS
dave, all people are obligated to God, to seek God, to follow God's will. The fullness of all that man can find in God is found in the Catholic Church.
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