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Published: October 23, 2008
“Vandals and city hall”
Proposition 8 backers in Chino Hills targeted by hoodlums, municipal government
News release from Alliance Defense Fund
Oct. 22, 2008
CHINO HILLS -- Supporters of Proposition 8 in Chino Hills have been facing antagonism from two sources: vandals and city hall.
City officials threatened to fine a church for distributing “Yes on 8” signs and residents who place the signs in their yards. The city backed down after Alliance Defense Fund attorneys sent a letter to the mayor.
 Meanwhile, Chino Hills police are still investigating vandalism to two cars belonging to a family supporting the proposition.
“Supporters of Proposition 8 should not be punished for their position on the marriage amendment,” said ADF senior legal counsel Erik Stanley. “They are Americans, and they not only have a right to vote on and promote Prop. 8; they also have a right to be free of fear, intimidation, and the destruction of their property.”
A city ordinance prohibits placing political signs on private property unless the property owner gets a permit and pays a $250 deposit. Under the ordinance, the city threatened homeowners with fines of $25 a day if they did not remove their pro-Proposition 8 signs. The city also threatened Calvary Chapel Chino Hills with a $250 fine if they did not stop distributing the signs. ADF attorneys sent a letter to Mayor Curt Hagman Oct. 15 regarding the unconstitutionality of the ordinance. The city attorney responded Oct. 17 with assurances that the sign law would not be enforced against the homeowners or the church.
A few days after a “Yes on 8” sign was stolen from the yard of a family attending the church, vandals damaged two of the family’s cars. The vandals keyed messages including “Gay Sex is Love” and “SEX” into the paint of one car and wrote other graphic messages in permanent marker all over both vehicles. They also bent the rear windshield wiper of one car and broke off the antenna of the other.
Despite the concerns of other family members about putting themselves at further risk, the family has replaced the stolen yard sign and has covered up some of the graffiti on one of the cars with “Yes on 8” bumper stickers.
Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:15 AM By Long Memory
Another group of perverted thugs (in Brown Shirts) started in same way -- also with help from municipal "authorities".
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:05 AM By Tom Byrne
If this is what they do when they are losing, how do you expect they would act if they won?
St. Charles Lwanga: pray for us!
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:40 AM By Eileen
Chino Hills "City Hall" = The Real Example Of An Intolerant Fiefdom!
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:05 AM By St. Christopher
The Chino Hills, CA ordinance prohibiting the placing of signage on private property without payment of an exorbitant fee is likely unconstitutional. I hope some challenges this. And welcome to Obama's America is he is elected President, as every source of federal power will go towards eradicating American constitutional rights.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 9:22 AM By Patrick
Wonder why the FBI Civil Rights Division is not investigating this as a hate crime. Guess it only works one way.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 9:22 AM By Ski Ven
How about a sign that reads as follows: "This Nazi like vandalism was brought to you by Proposition 8 opponents.", "An example of homo-mafia vandalism...", or "The lavender mafia at work."? These loving people give me such a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 9:31 AM By Linda
Apparently the officials at the city of Chino Hills haven't read the US Constitution that guarantees freedom of speech! This hateful intolerance is where the Gaystapo will take America! Don't tolerate their Hate! Vote Yes on 8!
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:08 AM By Observer
Two quotes from "famous" marxists: "You have the right to say what you wish. I have the right to shoot you." - Leon Trotsky (he would destroy anyone to advance the "cause") "Destroy the family, you destroy the country." - Vladimir Lenin (he would destroy the family and the country for the "cause.")
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:09 AM By Annie
Break one commandment, break them all. This is a pattern seen in people who live without the grace of God to guide them. Break the 6th, break the 7th, the 8th, the 1st, etc. Consciences are dulled, then killed, and the devil has these people in his clutches. Short of lots of prayers and an awakening, they are headed for hell. Only God can judge, but we must convert these people one soul at a time.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:37 AM By pete salveinini
FASCISM
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:58 AM By Ski Ven
I have another sign idea. Print out signs that are suitable for placement on vandalized cars that read: "The homosexual movement wants to vandalize California. You can stop them. Vote Yes on Proposition 8."
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:10 PM By Elizabeth
I've learned a long time ago......
Their idea of tolerence...............
Is a ONE WAY STREET!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pray for these midguided and sad people.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:12 PM By Mea Culpa
Now we can see just how phony their pleas for "tolerance" really are. They want their perversions enshrined in law, being taught in our schools, and anyone daring to speak the truth - that these are sins against God - must be silenced. They have traded the truth of God for a lie - and now they are insisting that we all do the same. We have to stand up and say NO - we won't bow down to your sinful, perverted agenda, we will speak out, we will VOTE for Proposition 8 !!
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:58 PM By Henry Tabatha
Yes on 8 preserves what most Americans, Californians, premiere sociologists, and the 3 disenting judges, agree marriage should be.
By leaving marriage undefined, calling traditional marriage "optimal" no longer stands up to already-existing equal protection mandates.
Until laws are passed to explicitly protect speech and religion from being able to express and practice a preference for traditional marriage, no other relationship should be called marriage
Yes on 8!
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:08 PM By sheila
WHAT PART OF GOD'S ACCEPTANCE DO YOU ALL DISAGEE WITH????????MY GOD IS TOLERANT AND LOVES ALL.......YOU HATERS INTERPRET THINGS TO YOUR IDEAS AND GO WITH THEM. MY GOD DOES NOT WANT ME TO KEEP HAPPINESS FROM ANYONE..........
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 5:50 PM By lionel
Sheila, of course God accepts us as we are. You have to keep in mind that God has given us his Word. It is the roadmap to salvation. His Word forbids homosexuality. If we commit this sin, He will forgive us. We are not gauranteed happiness. Even the founders of this country were wise enough to only acknowledge "the pursuit of happiness." True happiness can only be found in Heaven. Many people are denied happiness. Job endured great trials. These trials are tests of faith. The homosexial act, according to God's Word, is a sin. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality and other immoral acts. This is very much on the mind of Christians. That is the real reason for YES ON 8. But Christians can't communicate this because secular progressives are so far removed from any Judeo-Christian understanding Christians might as well be talking Russian. They think we're religious lunatics believing in fairy tales. Christianity is under all out attack by atheists, abortionists and homosexuals. As long as people read the Bible these agendas will be resisted by the faithful. YES ON 8, and YES ON 4, are where we draw the line. We're not taking this anymore... We're going to call protectmarriage.com and sign up for a phone bank and call undecided voters between now and election day.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 5:58 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Sheila,
God through His Church has told you what to expect for your pretence of love for all, and no so called Judge on earth can change that. May God have mercy on your soul!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:49 PM By JLS
It's a hate crime, and requires the FBI to investigate it.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:35 PM By Eileen
Sheila says, "My God does not want me to keep happiness from anyone?" Ohhhh, brother.....that's a new one! Sheila I can hardly wait for you to have a talk with Noah on Judgment Day! Ya know....maybe I shouldn't have said that. Maybe Sheila learned that Noah's Ark was a giant P.E.T.A. rescue boat in her R.C.I.A. class. Sheila, please go purchase a Catholic Catechism and seek out a Catholic priest who properly instructs and informs you. Sheila you have been deceived about the Teachings of the Catholic Church. It is never too late to learn the truth. You deserve it. That will be your choice.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:45 PM By Mea Culpa
Sheila - there is only one God, and he has spoken to us through the prophets and through his inspired word - the Bible. You have set up a false god before you, one of your own making. You need to read the Bible to see what God wants for his people. You might be interested in Romans chapter 1: "And in like manner the men also, leaving the natural use of the woman, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error....they, who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they who do them, but they also who consent to them that do them."
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:28 PM By Mark from PA
God bless you Sheila. God loves us all. I'm afraid of the hate too. Hate is a scary thing.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:32 PM By Jasmine
Romans 1 is a story about people who in everyday life (other than scenes described in Romans 1) are attracted to the opposite sex. They are everyday heterosexuals (not gay people) who are having a fling with same sex partners.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 9:17 PM By The original Frank
Sheila: I have no idea who you are or where you live. If you come back and read this page, be assured that among its readers, at least one accepts you as God accepts you, and loves you as imprefectly as any human. May the merciful One fill your heart with love and leave no room for hate.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:08 PM By Donna
Are the Chino Hills officials also fining people who have "No on 8" signs in their yards, or churches that are handing them out? If not, why not?
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:43 PM By Maria C
Oh come on Sheila, why are you yelling. Where is the love? tee hee. Ski Ven tee hee, I love what you posted. I enjoy your good sense of humor, during these times we need it to keep our sanity with all the hate we are having to deal with from the homosexual agenda. : ) They try to intimidate us and what they are really doing is throwing a big tantrum that yells out "accept me or else!, give up your faith and your God for us". Come on give me a break, I choose God and His teachings over their values.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:49 PM By Maria C
JLS I agree with you, it is a hate crime and the FBI should get involved. I don't understand why it is not all over the secular news? If this was the other way around, we would never hear the end of it. Such double standard if you ask me.
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Posted Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:51 PM By Elizabeth
I don't see hate from the posters.....
I see people trying to get the 'truth' out in the open!
We are to love all, not like all that people who are so misguided do.........
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Posted Friday, October 24, 2008 2:00 PM By Ski Ven
Thanks Maria C. I have not been posting here for a long time, but things have slowed down enough in my part of the world for me to be able to post a few comments here, at least for a while. I appreciate those who take the time to regularly defend the faith at this website. I can't remember them all but I know the Lord does. Again, thanks for the positive feedback. May God bless all of you.
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Posted Friday, October 24, 2008 3:14 PM By Sean
Sadly, there is a lot of misinformation in this news release and these comments. The City of Chino Hills does indeed have a political sign policy that requires the CAMPAIGN to make a $250 deposit and agree not to place signs in/on public right of way. If a sign has to be removed, the CAMPAIGN is charges a $20 removal fee. Homeowners wishing to display signs do not have to pay a deposit or fine. This applies to ALL political signs. Supporters of Prop 8 have not been singled out or treated unfairly. They have, however, not followed the rules that every other campaign in the city has.
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Posted Friday, October 24, 2008 5:02 PM By Fr. M.P.
So Sheila and Mark from PA, is it happiness to vandalize property in the name of homosexual activities?
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Posted Friday, October 24, 2008 6:24 PM By JLS
Sean, the obvious answer is to kick out the Chino Hills government, and put in people who are moral, not moral relativists. The nation and world needs men and women with chutzpah, not mushy minds.
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Posted Friday, October 24, 2008 8:37 PM By Eileen
The Original Frank says, "Sheila I have no idea of who you are and where you live. Be assured that among the readers of this page at least one accepts you as you are?" Frank, that is a unoriginally hollow attempt at supporting and promoting the acceptance of mortal sin with a perfect stranger. That's not very charitable Frank! What if you discovered that serial killing brings Sheila happiness? I know....you'd accept her as she was. Frank, please try to lead strangers to God with truth and holiness, not emptiness.
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Posted Friday, October 24, 2008 10:59 PM By Remind Me...
I'm in the Bay Area and I have seen only hatred and intolerance for silent free speech from the Yes on 8.
Thankfully there are many people who are still brave enough to call what is right right and wrong wrong. Gay Marriage is wrong on so many levels.
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:34 PM By JLS
Remind Me, you need to understand that morality is not open to sin. Morality does not include advocating sin. Free speech means only that which is moral. You perverts are the problem, and your only moral or free option is to stop your perversion. Anyone voting no on prop 8 is attempting to stop free speech, which is a crime against the first amendment to the Constitution, a federal crime, which requires no on 8 voters to be arrested, tried and convicted of hate speech, treason, and sabotage against children.
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 4:02 PM By Sean
JLS, That is either the single greatest piece of satire ever posted on a message board or one of the most asinine, incoherent series of words recently strung together.
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 6:33 PM By Jenson
There was a very disturbing incident outside a market here in San Pedro today. Yes On Prop. 8 Demonstrators were harrassing passersby in an effort to get them to vote their way. As a Catholic, I found their loud and uncivilized actions to be shameful and disgraceful. Such goings on will not win converts to our cause. I chill at how many decided voters were driven away and turned 'round at this ugly, embarrassing scene.
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 6:43 PM By JLS
Sean, if you'd consider what the Great Commission is, then you'd realize I'm not being satirical. You relativists believe that the best that God wants is your brand of freedom for all, especially for sins. Christianity is not going to bow to you or to any other anti-God group. Never did, never will. Catholicism will outlast you, your errant philosophy, your bogus religion, and your hostility towards God. How that comes about is not mine to know. But if you believe that God has handed down his Commandments and instituted His Church in vain, then you are lost in incoherency. Morality, Sean, does not derive from sin, nor from vagrant philosophies that pop up from time to time, nor from the errors of natural religions. Morality derives from God, Who has given us His Commandments ... read them and weep. Then consider whether you have any reasonable alternative than to follow them. The Catholic west was not built on a foundation of tolerating a society of sin, but of reforming pagan society into the Will of God. This has lapsed. If you don't think my suggestions would work to redeem society, then why don't you propose a better way in accordance with God's Commandments?
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:23 PM By Grisha
Eileen: And Sheila's mortal sin ToF is promoting, based upon the single post she wrote is.........................?
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:12 PM By JLS
Grisha, try bearing false witness against her neighbors, namely those who support Chuch teaching to admonish sinners. Sheila is claiming something to be Catholic which is not, but is her own religion ... the religion of tolerance, which Jesus did not teach, nor did Moses.
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:20 PM By Eileen
Grisha, You know about the "anything goes" as long as it makes you happy defense? You used it when you told the woman in San Diego to go and enjoy a same sex pretend wedding when she questioned if it was wrong to do so. Grisha, I'm surprised that you haven't been arrested for loitering here. Is your purpose to defend anything that resembles the acceptance of the gay lifstyle because it makes them and you happy? Well, then there is the answer to your question. Why didn't Sheila call the man who beat the living daylights out of the man with the Yes on 8 signs a HATER? Was it because of the happiness it brought to the beater?
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Posted Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:53 PM By Sean
JLS, I have no desire to see Catholicism abolished or destroyed. I also don't want to Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other "ism" disappear. I live in a secular state in a secular nation that has a constitution that allows individuals to subscribe to any religious tradition that they wish. No one is asking the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, to accept or recognize same-sex marriage. The state, that secular body that is not bound by any religious doctrine, recognizes these marriages, no one else has to. Until California becomes an extension of the Holy See, I would like to keep it this way.
On a side note, free speech has nothing to do with "that which is moral." Read your constitution a little more carefully. Your arguments are illogical and based on several flawed and invalid assumptions.
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 9:32 AM By Mark from PA
To Father Fr. M.P. Vandalism is a crime and a sin no matter who does it. I am not in California so I'm not really in this fight but if someone vandalizes a Yes sign they are wrong and if someone vandalizes a No sign they are wrong. Violence is wrong no matter who it is directed at. I'm a shy peaceful person and I deplore all violence. I never was in a fight in all of my school years. As Jesus said in today's gosepl, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 1:10 PM By Dai Yoshida
Sean: you have a flawed and invalid assumption about living in a secular state in a secular nation. America is as secular as the citizens of this country wish it to be. Unfortunately, you are in the minority in your assumption that America stands on a foundational principal of secularism free of religion based morality. You need to study your constitution. (or better yet the dollar bill.)
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 1:29 PM By JLS
Sean, that's nice to know that you don't know what Catholicism is or Who God is. Hopefully you will some day desire to find out. You can do it two ways, one of which is by the power of natural reason, which leads the intellect to realize that there can be only one God. Also, you can do it by faith, which will lead you into the nature of God, His divine will, and His one institution for salvation. Sean, I know what the various government docs say; what you need to read is the Great Commission, ie Jesus' mandate that His Church go into all the world preaching the Gospel, teaching same, and discipling the nations. Discipling the nations is the one that the faithless do not like at all.
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 4:28 PM By Sean McDuffee
JLS, My familiarity with the Matthew 28 doesn't enter into it. I do not want you or your church o stop believing or practicing your faith. We don't, whether or not you choose to accept it, live in a Catholic society. I don't see where it says in the Great Commission that your are to subjugate non-believers. A "disciple", according to three different dictionaries, is a person who "embraces and assists in the spreading the teachings of another." Where does that mean that yo can compel people to subscribe to your particular philosophy? And can we please remember that my first post here was explaining how the article that everyone is all worked up about is NOT TRUE. Just like the ads that say public schools will teach homosexual marriage and churches will lose tax exempt status. The argument for Proposition 8 is based on false information and religious extremism.
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 4:34 PM By Sean
Yoshida, Interesting that the first amendment contains what is commonly referred to as the "establishment clause." Our government is expressly prohibited from establishing a state religion. There isn't much debate there. While not expressly written in the Constitution, the supreme court along with many of the Constitutional authors have interpreted this as being a separation of church and state. Thus, a secular nation by definition. Please, show me my flawed assumption. The word "God" is not an endorsement of any particular religion. There are a number of religions that use the term "God" that have widely differing views on what that entity is. The term appearing on our currency does not endorse any of them.
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 5:29 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, I just wanted to let you know that I was at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York on Friday. They have a small chapel to Our Lady of Guadalupe and I said a prayer for you there.
Pax Christi - Mark
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 7:00 PM By JLS
Sean McDuffeee, God rules the world and all that is in it. If you choose to defy God, that does not prove anything other than His mercy. Those of you who worship the Constitution will see such man made systems come and go; this one is already on the outs after only a few centuries. It is a fine document, but it depends on a Christian voting block, which does not exist any longer. God is perfectly extreme, and the Church follows Him ... "His train fills the temple", which is all of creation. Any and all of us do well to just fill the better part of a century, let alone eternity.
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 8:13 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, Thank you, so very much Mark! I have never been to New York. I love Our Lady of Guadalupe! Pax Christi-Eileen
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:01 PM By JLS
Sean, many states had state religions, as it was not forbidden in the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution forbid only a federal religion, not individual state religions. But as the voting public grows ever more atheistic, it finds ways to influence government, especially activist courts, to conjure up all sorts of discoveries in the Constitution: One is the right to privacy, a mockery of the Sacrament of Confession of the Catholic Church; another is the right to an abortion. This sort of thing constitutes a federal state religion. So, by throwing God out with the bathwater, the U.S. government has gradually created a state religion, and you are one of its subscribers, a worshiper of the state.
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Posted Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:04 PM By JLS
Sean McDuffee, you claim familiarity with Matthew 28 and then reject it. That is not familiarity. If you reject something, you cannot claim it as family. Familiar means you are united in a good way, like a family. Since you reject Scripture, then you are no family to it, and therefore are not at all familiar with it. You might perceive this as a word game, but it is quite the opposite of a game. God has a family; if you defy God, then how can you claim to be a member of His family?
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 5:39 AM By Fr. M.P.
So Mark from PA, you mentioned that it is wrong to vandalize signs, but do you say that it is hate to refuse to accept the unnatural and sinful homosexual behavior, particularly in refusing to accept so-called "gay marriage"?
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 5:43 AM By Dai Yoshida
The founding fathers prohibited establishment of a state church but did not envision a Godless society. I suppose the founding fathers were, in your view, all religious extremists. Separation of church and state does not mean eradication of religious morality from public policy. For example, definition of murder and concept of justification is based on Christian moral principal. Without the foundation of Christianity American legal system will not exist. Your attempt to re-write American history purely from an atheist stand point is disingenuous at best.
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 4:28 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, I usually attend Mass in Spanish at our church every Tuesday. It is very beautiful. Last year they brought a replica of the portrait of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It was very beautiful and inspiring to me. Our Lady of Guadalupe is the patroness of our precious unborn.
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 6:26 PM By Mark from PA
Fr. M.P. It appears that you hate homosexuality so what can I say? I have talked to several gay dads on the internet and have been impressed with their courage. I know a lot of these guys are not respected and even hated by some but I think all families should be treated with respect. They have adopted kids and their kids are looked down on by some. Prejudice is a sad thing. We are all God's children.
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 7:53 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, Yes, Our Lady of Guadalupe is the patroness of the unborn. Mark were you aware that Our Lady appeared to St. Juan Diego at the same time that many Catholics in Europe were abandoning the truths of their faith? Our Lady of Guadalupe brought her Son's truth to the pagans. Mark you have stated many times that hatred is wrong. Killing the unborn is a form of hatred towards God. Homosexual acts are also a form of hatred towards God. Everyone should be treated with respect Mark. The crucial part of that respect and dignity for everyone is loving God first. How do we love others properly when we are not concerned with what offends God? It is impossible Mark. The reason I care about your soul Mark is because I love and try to obey God first. I often fail but the truth always remains. The truth of the gospel never changes with the times. You are being challenged more during these times. Mark have you ever asked yourself even once, "What if I am wrong?" God does not lie to us Mark. He loves everyone who struggles with same sex attraction. The actions are offensive to God, not the individual. The same applies to everyone's trials. Yes, Mark it is a tremendous Cross but many people carry many different kinds of crosses while they spend this short time on earth. I am showing you no love if I don't ask you to love God's Law's before any man or woman. No one here hates homosexuals, especially the priests. Every priest I have ever met has the greatest sensitivity and compassion for people who struggle with same sex attraction. They are priests first and their compassion will never include the coddling of sinful actions. This takes heroic love to reach out to sinners even though you know that they might hate you for not telling you what you want to hear. When you face Almighty God you will then know the real love it takes to remind everyone to choose God over temptation. Mark you are loved here but you are not lied to here.
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 7:54 PM By JLS
Whoa, Dai!!! The founding fathers prohibited a national church, but not state churches.
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 8:09 PM By JLS
Dai, I'd have to consult my references, but some of the original states of this nation had state religions. There were several different ones, but all were at least derived from Christianity, which as everyone should know has come from the Catholic Church. Maryland was a Catholic haven, hence the state name; however, I don't think it had a state religion. but others did. If any interest in this trivia, let me know and I'll dig up the particular states and their official religions.
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Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 8:19 PM By Barlow
Dai Yoshida, the "definition of murder and concept of justification" predates Christianity. And when Jesus said, "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer," that is not the definition of murder used by the American legal system.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 6:45 AM By JLS
Dai, I hope readers do not take my comment on national churches which contradict to some extent your comment as any sort of attack or challenge to you. I stand with you on your main point, and on all your other posts. What I am trying to bring out is that there is nothing in the Constitution originally which precludes an official state religion, only a national religion.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 6:55 AM By Dai Yoshida
JLS: I wasn't aware that some American states adopted official religion. Yes I would be interested in knowing about that. I knew Catholics were not welcome in many of the original colonies but were there actual official denominations?
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:03 AM By Dai Yoshida
Barlow: The American concept of guilt, justifiability and distinction of murder, manslaughter, etc. is based on the Old English system which in turn is founded on Christian ethics.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:35 AM By Fr. M.P.
Mark from PA, so you hate God since God doesn't approve of the mortal sin of homosexual behavior, which is abominable to quote His infallible Word, and no one practicing or promoting that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In fact, the Gospel in today's TLM deals with this topic of hate (John 15): "If the world hate you, know ye that it hath hated me before you. If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Stop following the world which loves evil, Mark from PA, and turn to God.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:45 AM By Larry K
Mark's your thinking is symptomatic of many modernists that think being nice is the new virtue, rather than following God's laws. There was an excellent article on this topic at the New Oxford Review entitled - The Fault of Being Nice. (Google -- nice new oxford Kalpakgian)… " …Anyone can be nice -- that is, easygoing, non-threatening, non-judgmental, and tolerant. A nice person never criticizes or judges; a nice person avoids confrontations and arguments; a nice person does anything and everything to keep peace and make life comfortable for everyone. … … Thus, being nice often means pretending civility, tolerating lies, and allowing injustice. Those who do speak the truth are criticized for poor manners and for a lack of sensitivity…." … Mark says he is a "shy peaceful" person who deplores all violence. So he doesn't want to say or do anything that someone else (a liberal) may find offensive -- i.e. criticizing someone's bad behavior, as it is seen as violence towards them. Of course, people can claim they are offended by just about anything to justify their behavior. Being "nice" becomes an attempt at acting with civility, because one doesn't want to rock the boat. So one tolerates lies, sins, and injustice because they want to be seen as easygoing and tolerant. Nice is confused with true charity and upholding justice and is based on sentimentality rather than any of the true Cardinal or Theological virtues. And as far as the practice of Catholicism goes, it's wet-noodle Catholicism with no teeth to it and that can allow evil to flourish unabated. Your comments attempting to condone homosexuality here illustrate this.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:45 AM By Larry K
Mark makes statements implying that all violence is wrong "no matter who it is directed at" -- with no context. Was the violence the US armies used to bring an end to Hitler's regime wrong? Is the violence we use to apprehend criminals and forcibly put them behind bars wrong? Of course not -- it depends on the context of how that violence is used. Violence can be used to do good. In another thread he states that he's careful never to touch rifles or alcohol, as if rifles or alcohol are somehow evil. Jesus performed his first public miracle at the wedding feast of Cana by providing wine (yes an alcoholic beverage) for the celebrants. And yet Mark seems to think that avoiding alcohol will make him virtuous. And rifles can be used for good or evil purposes -- they are not evil in themselves. Mark, this type of thinking represents a facile notion of true virtue, and is based on warm and fuzzy feelings of sentimentality rather than true faith, reason, courage, and the discipline and fortitude required to practice the true faith. True charity means explaining to people the error of their ways even if it make you and them uncomfortable sometimes. Life and true religion isn't about preaching love, flowers, peace, and driving around in a 1968 VW van with flowers painted on it, and a bumper sticker that says "Jesus Loves", and not criticizing anything. It requires discipline of the mind and body and criticizing what is wrong and in error based on reason and true exercise of the faith. It's about strength of character. Too many men these days are "feminized" and think being nice is a virtue -- when it in reality shows lack of character. Hate isn't evil in itself either -- it should be directed towards evil and sin.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:56 PM By Mark from PA
OK Larry, hate me for being nice I really don't care. I feel that World War II was a just war but feel that the saturation bombing that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians was evil. The dropping of the atomic bomb on Nagasaki, the center of Japanese Catholicism, was also an act of evil. Nazi Germany's murder of 6 million Jews and millions of Catholic plus its murder of thousands of homosexuals and Polish Catholic priests was also evil. In regard to alcohol did you hear me criticize anyone for drinking? Moderate drinking is fine. I come from a drinking family. When I was a kid my dad used to take me to bars almost every weekend. I have an occasional drink but I have never been drunk. I don't believe in drinking to excess. I go to Mass 2 or 3 times a week and usually take wine (the blood of Christ) with communion. I never drank when I was a teen. I was a chaste virgin. I was left out of trips and outings that our priest had because he gave kids alcohol and since I didn't drink I was something of an outsider. I come from a military family. My mom had 5 brothers who fought in WWII. My dad and his brother fought in WWII. His father was a General in the US Army who helped to liberate Italy. I am a shy, peaceful person. This is who I am. I thank God for the way he made me.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:56 PM By Mea Culpa
There is no such thing as "gay marriage." Marriage is between a man and a woman. The only reason homosexuals can get married in California now is because 4 activist judges struck down the will of the people expressed in Proposition 22. Just like the vandals in this story - they don't care about anybody or anything except their "gay agenda." What about our right to not have our children taught that homosexual marriage is equivalent to real marriage, or that homosexuality is perfectly normal (of course, it's not - it's a gravely disordered condition and a mortal sin if acted upon). They don't care about our rights - they want to have these fake "marriages" to legitimize their perversions and force everyone else to accept them. Homosexuals don't really want to be married - their "lifestyle" is based on promiscuity, multiple partners - that's why they get AIDS.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 3:06 PM By Mark from PA
Father M.P., you are free to hate me but don't you dare tell me that I hate God. I had a priest for Religion for 3 years in high school. His nickname for himself was "The Perfect One." During our senior year he rarely taught class, he just sat and visited with his special friends. He would make fun of me and put me down on occasion. I never once said anything back to him. A few years ago I asked a friend why he thought this priest was so mean to me, my friend replied, "Perhaps he feared your integrity." I never knew what happened to this priest. He just disappeared. I thought he fell off the wagon. Last month I found out that he has been 1000 miles away at a center for troubled priests. He was a sexual predator. This man had sex with friends of mine. I never knew. It makes me sick. So you see Father, if this sexual predator couldn't drive me away from the Church your vicious comments won't either.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:20 PM By JLS
PA, why is it the same with all homosexuals, that they accuse others who criticize them of hating them. Is this routine accusation of hate genetic? Or could it be coming from the "Accuser"? Now, you can accuse me of anger, but hate is another thing, and it does not fit me. I know what hate is, and it ain't me. So, shape up your accusations to something real or prepare for your further descent into the fantasies of perverse thinking, such as is the lot of homosexual apologists.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:08 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, In charity I wanted to remind you that you are the one who first chose to state above that Father MP hated homosexuality. Mark, that is innacurate and unfair. You were actually the one soliciting the honest and logical response from Father. You don't even realize that yet do you? You never clarified the fact that Father MP has never once said he hated homosexuals. Father MP and others here are always referring to the sinful actions. Are you now able to see that if you inaccurately accuse Father of hating homosexuals, by not clarifying your usage of the word homosexuality, that Father has no choice but to charitably and accurately inform you that when you express that sinful actions are acceptable, it is a complete rejection of God's Infinite Wisdom for mankind. What is the opposite of love and acceptance for God's Laws Mark, which you do not agree with? How about the words hatred and rejection of God. This is what Father is talking about. Mark in order to have Catholic Integrity (soundness and honesty) you cannot be a Cafeteria Catholic that selects what you like but rejects other truths. The only vicious messages that you are encountering are your own very painful distractions from the past that have locked you into an unwillingness to obey and trust completely in all of God's Laws. Our Lady of Guadalupe will help you if you specifically request it.
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Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:25 PM By Mark from PA
I inferred that he hated homosexuality from what he said. If he does not hate homosexuality and does not consider homosexuality to be a sin then he can correct me. I fully realize that some of you here do not accept me and have disdain for me. Actually I am OK with that. I can accept that someone honestly dislikes me. Maybe some of you don't think I am so nice, as Larry would put it. The message, "I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." is something to ponder.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:23 AM By Sonja
Mark from PA ,these people hate out of ignorance and fear. They don't even know you. To hate someone you don't even know? That really shows how ignorant they are.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:11 AM By Dai Yoshida
Mark from PA: I can't speak for others but I for one do not hate you. I have always had friends who are "gay". They know I am Catholic and where I stand personally. It does not make them less of a friend. As with any of my friends, I will gladly die for them. If you are courageously carrying the cross of same-sex attraction and following the Church teaching with humility and obedience, you have my utmost respect. I say this all honesty. I think it's ironic that you believe the world hates you. I work in a very PC company and my Catholic faith gets me in trouble often. I'm never going to get that promotion, that's for sure.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:18 AM By Mark from PA
Hi Dai. I don't think anyone here hates me. Nobody here really knows me, so no one here hates me or loves me. Some people here may like me, some may have disdain for me based on my opinions and my story. I don't feel that I am carrying any cross, I am OK with who I am. I don't believe the world hates me. I am a shy unimportant person. At work I am a known Catholic. I got a new supervisor and she called me in for "counseling" and told me that I was a religious fanatic and should stop going to church. She lived in California for a while and she told me this right after Cardinal Mahoney's settlement came out so I think she associated me with Cardinal Mahoney and his priests. This woman doesn't dislike me, she just dislikes the Catholic church. It appears that some of the people here hate homosexuality but I don't think they hate me. Thanks for your input, friend. God bless you.
Peace - Mark
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:03 PM By Fr. M.P.
Mark from PA, your accusation of hate is the common claim for evil-doers (those who obstinately persist in mortal sin) when someone tells them they are wrong and tells them to stop. You do hate God because you persist in supporting the unnatural, evil and sinful homosexual behavior. The infallible Bible says so: Psalm 68 (67): let them that hate Him flee from before His Face. Let me get more detailed. Really you hate the homosexuals because you are helping them to eternal fire by promoting their behavior. You also hate your own soul because you are merrily skipping down the wide road to destruction along with those practicing homosexual behavior. That is a sin, a mortal sin. That is what God says, and therefore that is what the Church teaches. I have not only a right but a *duty* to warn you that you are on the path to hell, because I must preach "the Gospel in season or out of season," meaning whether or not you like hearing it. I don't hate your soul Mark from PA, I have pity on it. Because I follow God's Commandments, I will never support or condone your mortal sins or those of active homosexuals. I speak no differently to fornicators or adulterers either, because those behaviors are mortal sins too, so don't say that I am picking on active homosexuals. All real Catholics need to pray for Mark to accept God's Truth for his salvation.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:18 PM By Regina
Fr.MP, what "accusation of hate" are you talking about? Your own? Do you not hate homosexuality? Do you not consider homosexuality to be sinful? Please be clear.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:45 PM By Donald
Jesus said, "The world cannot hate you," but "You will be hated by all because of my name." (John 7 & Luke 21) Blessed be Jesus for taking all the blame. Or, "This is what the LORD says: You must not march out to fight against your brother. Let every man return home, for I have brought this about." It's all God's doing.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:51 PM By RR
Father M.P.: How right you are! Homosexuals continue to use the same OLD excuse that we are hateful. They refuse to grasp the concept that we hate what they do(sins of sodomy) and not them personally. If they continue in or support this sinful and deviant behavior they DO hate God. They can proclaim all they want that they love God, but their actions show otherwise. We all know that our actions speak louder than words.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:58 PM By JLS
Another way of trying to understand and recognize hate is to ask if God hates. The answer is "yes", which we find in Scripture. Another question is, "Does God hate those He condemns to Hell forever"? Since God is love, then He does not hate those He condemns ... or does He? Read Holy Scripture to find out.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:56 PM By Mark from PA
Greetings, Larry. You comments were very interesting. It would be interesting to have a discussion with you in person. We are two very different people but I do like hearing different opinions. I see what you are getting at. I should not have used the word hate in my response. That was too strong a word, I should have said dislike. I suppose I was being somewhat sarcastic, which wasn't very nice!!! So I suppose I am not always nice either. What can I say, I'm only human. I always loved the story of Jesus changing water into wine at the wedding at Cana. I have read the gospels several times over and have a special love for the gospels. Your comment about alcohol reminded me that I had some wine left over from last month when we had a friend to dinner. I had shrimp for dinner (sorry, I broke one of the laws of Leviticus) and since it is white wine I thought that I would have a drink. So I just held up my glass of wine and drank to your good health Larry. Peace to you my friend. Mark
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:34 PM By MarkF
You know, it is sort of a waste of time talking to Mark from PA.
He will change whatever you say into what he wants to hear. I changes the subject when he knows he's wrong. And he's filled with the sense of victimization that you see in a lot of homosexuals.
Like the Fr. says, he talks about peace but what he teaches is violence to the Church.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:31 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F. I teach no violence. Jesus is the Prince of Peace. Jesus will judge Fred Phelps and his hatred community and all those who believe like him. Father M.P., who are you to call me an evil doer? Who are you to accuse me of mortal sin? If I came to your church would you throw me out because I am not a "real Catholic"? You are a scary, hateful, judgmental man. When you people see gay people in heaven what are you going to do? Tell Jesus that he has to throw them out or you will leave?
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:02 PM By Anne T.
Mark from PA, you already know that the Kosher Laws are not binding on Christians. Christians can eat pork and shrimp, etc. I gave you the verse in Acts (Acts, chapter 11) where Peter, the first Pope, changed the Kosher Law at Christ's command. I and others explained it to you. Why do you like to twist scripture to serve your purpose and make yourself and others of like mind appear victimized. Even if you were a Jewish person and kept Kosher, the laws against sodomy and incest, etc. still apply. Sodomy is unhealthy, physically hurtful and unnatural. If you do not engaged in such activity, as you have said you do not, why do you defend it so vehemently. No one on this blog is saying that someone with the temptation is cursed (in mortal sin), just someone who performs the acts without repentance and you know that. We have explained it to you. Mark F., you are right, but the problem is that Mark from PA keeps deceiving others who are new to this blog. As for me now, I will leave him to others.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:03 PM By Mark from PA
But those are the laws that I break Anne. I know that the laws of Leviticus are not binding on me as a Christian. I broke the law but it is not a sin. (It was just a light hearted comment and I actually did have a glass of wine.) I have never slept with a man as with a woman but according to Father M.P. homosexuality is a sin and because of my orientation I am an evil doer. Because I do not believe that my orientation is a sin he tells me that I hate God. (Which I find very offensive.) He tells me he will never support or condone my mortal sins. (What does this man know of my sins?) I have told people that I am gay-bisexual and to him that is my mortal sin. He tells me that I am on the path to hell because of my orientation. I know that he believes homosexuality is a sin but I don't. OK. Fred Phelps believes homosexuality is a sin. I realize that many people believe this. However, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "They (gay people) must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity." It further says that they should not be discriminated against. I see very little respect, compassion and sensitivity here. I just see a lot of hate.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:33 PM By Sandra
Anne T, why are you talking about sodomy? Sodomy and homosexuality are not the same thing. After all, hundreds of millions of heterosexuals practice sodomy, including married ones.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:49 PM By Mark from PA
OK, Mark F, so you change the subject when you think I know I am wrong. It would be nice if you could just accept me. I am not avoiding you. In another discussion you made 6 comments and I tried to answer you but none of my comments ever made it though and I was told the discussion was closed so can't you just accept me and stop throwing stones? I don't really understand why you have such anger towards me.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:04 PM By JLS
Sandra, duh, what branch of sodomy do think this thread is dealing with?
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:00 PM By Mark from PA
That is a valid comment Sandra. I DON'T practice sodomy. When I was a teen I didn't know of such things. But I now know that it is common. I know that the Catholic Church considers it an abomination. But many married people practice it. In truth, this is none of my business. What other people do in private is not my business. I have never ever heard a priest address this from the pulpit. There is so much injustice in our world, racism, prejudice, poverty. I think social justice issues are important.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:34 PM By Anne T.
Sandra, from where do you get your hundreds of millions figure for heterosexual sodomy. Sodomy tears up the anal passage. It also causes other diseases. Why do you think doctors tell us to wash our hands after using a restroom? Urine is mostly sterile, feces is not. If your figures are right, no wonder there is an epedemic of venereal diseases in this and other countries. When I was a teen, there were only four or five venereal diseases--all curable in this country. Now there are many, many more--many uncurable. Some types of cancers, including herpes connected mouth cancers, are a result of deviant behavior.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:49 PM By Anne T.
An addition to my last e-mail, for Mark from PA. I brought up sodomy because you seem to compare it to the Kosher Law (the law against certain foods) whenever you mention the Old Testament. There is no comparison. The Kosher Law was meant only for the Jewish people to separate or set them apart from the pagan nations until Christ came. It was to remind them that they were a holy people, but it is not binding on Christians. The moral laws are alway binding on every people. It is natural law. If one breaks it, one suffers the consequences in disease, societal chaos, etc.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:40 AM By Fr. M.P.
Mark from PA, I am a priest who knows the Law of God and sees your public behavior, so that's how I know about mortal sin. Homosexual behavior is always a mortal sin. Those who condone sin are guilty of the same sin, and you condone the mortal sins of homosexual behavior, using the lie of tolerance. That's how I know. There are others here too with that same fault, who claim (falsely) to be a real Catholic. As I said before, because I tell this to you, you claim that I am hateful and judgmental. So be it. Jesus said the world would hate me and persecute me. You will not see any active homosexuals in Heaven because God, through His infallible Word, God says so. Are you one of those "inhospitality" believers when it comes to those verses? You will see those sinners who have repented - that is stopped committing any homosexual sins they have done - in Heaven. You can get to Heaven *if you repent*, but not on the path you are currently on. Your soul is in danger. Further debate will get us nowhere because of your obstinate attachment to said mortal sin at present. Prayer and sacrifice is the answer, as Jesus said "some devils can only be cast out by prayer and fasting."
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:15 AM By Anne T.
I would like to add a caution to those who eat pork, especially those in other countries. Here in the United States pigs for eating are mostly corn fed. In some parts of the U.S. and other countries they are not. Some pigs are given scraps (garbage) in many countries. Make sure pork is thorougly cooked, otherwise one can get trichinosis which is a horrible and incurable disease at this time. So there were other reasons for the Old Testament Kosher Laws. The lack of refrigeration, too, contributed to diseases back then.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:25 AM By Anne T.
Everyone, it IS a social justice issue to tell our fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord when they are advocating a behavior or engaging in a behavior that is harmful to them or someone else. The good Lord loves us all and calls all of us to repentance when we do such things. Otherwise, we destroy ourselves and sometimes those around us. We are our brothers' keepers as Cain found out.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:35 PM By Mark from PA
You need not worry Father F.P. I have no devils in me. I am a good Christian person. I have Christ in me. Does TLM mean Tridentine Latin Mass? Are you a priest of the Tridentine Rite? You are not a Novo Ordo priest? We don't have Latin Masses in our area. We have a very diverse parish. We are somewhat eccumenical in that we have interfaith services with the other churches in our small town and also share in service projects with them. It appears that some of you may be from another rite so it seems I am somewhat of an outsider here. Plus I am from PA so I am from a different culture than many of you. I may have innocently stepped on someone's tuft and am not particularly welcome. Sorry.
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Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 6:47 PM By Mark from PA
Fr. M.P., you never answered my question. It seems that you are from a different rite of the Church that I am. We don't have Latin Masses in our area. Are you a priest of the Tridentine Rite? I went to 12 years of Catholic school and they didn't teach all this stuff about devils. I didn't even know what homosexuality was when I was in high school. It was never mentioned. In high school we had weekly Mass. In grade school we had daily Mass during Lent and Masses on first Fridays. We also had many Marian devotions. We read Bible stories in grade school and spent 2 years studying the 10 Commandments, 1 year studying the Sacraments, 1 year studying the Creed and 1 year studying Church History. We actually studied Humanae Vitae in high school and discussed abortion. Our bishops and priests do speak out against abortion from the pulpit.
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