|
Published: January 27, 2009
“We expected a massive presence of the gay community and their friends”
Supporter of counter-demonstration to Walk for Life scolds homosexuals for not showing up at pro-abortion rally
An unidentified blogger on the web site of the left-leaning San Francisco Bay Area Independent Media Center has rebuked the pro-homosexual movement in the city for failing to show up at a counter-demonstration to the 5th annual Walk for Life West Coast on Sunday, where an estimated 30,000 people peacefully marched in opposition to abortion.
Walk for Life opponents had earlier called participants in the annual event “anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage terrorists,” and sought to organize a counter-demonstration of “hundreds of thousands of pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage people.”
 Instead, said the blogger, “We had perhaps 100 people at our pro-abortion rally and march in San Francisco on January 24, 2009. After all the outcry against Prop 8, we expected a massive presence of the gay community and their friends, by definition also a pro-abortion community, at our pro-abortion rally but now we know, the gay community is not serious about building a movement to win gay marriage.”
The anonymous blogger also complained of “the failure of the San Francisco police to defend and support the pro-abortion march. One cop tried to claim that it is illegal to use foul language in one's chants when speaking to the anti-abortion fascists. Another group of cops blocked one pro-abortion marcher's path who had become separated from the group.”
Same-sex marriage is “strongly supported by the pro-abortion community,” said the blogger, and the homosexual-rights movement needs such support “for gay marriage to win.”
In early December 2008, the Bay Area Coalition for Our Reproductive Rights began organizing efforts to involve government, organized labor and a coalition of homosexual and women’s rights groups in the counter-demonstration.
The blogger who complained of the failure of that effort also took aim at Catholics, writing, “The Catholic Church is building its fascist movement in their schools, mostly among the non-white workingclass, and that is who was present at the anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-science march: Mostly workingclass Latino school children ages 10-17 and their very poor workingclass parents. There were a few old, rich, whites who would fit at any Republican Party rally, but they were the minority. We cannot afford to have any fascist base among the workingclass in these hard economic times.”
Finally, the blogger issued a warning: “The gay community will have to get serious real fast if it is to avoid the catastrophe of Nazi Germany where a gay movement was crushed by fascism.”
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:41 AM By Charles O'Connell
(It certainly wasn't because the weather was harsh.) I had the privilege of personally thanking a number of Police Officers for being there to protect us; many responded affirmatively. BACORR's predecessor, BACAOR, the "Bay Area Coalition Against Operation Rescue", published an early 1990s screed "Clinic Defense, a Model", fully one-third of which was dedicated to defiance of Police authority. "Those officers will often try to tell us not to defend the clinic if OR [Operation Rescue] hits, and tell us we should obey orders to get out of the way if we are told. This is all mostly wordplay. In turn, we tell them we intend to keep the clinic open and ask what plans they have made to assist us in doing so; the conversation becomes less definitive from then on. In the same way that a small number of police before a hit cannot really do anything, wherever the hit does happen, assuming more police arrive on site quickly, (which is rare, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE CALLED AWAY FROM THE SATURDAY MORNING CARTOONS [emphasis mine]), they are not likely to be as coordinated or threatening until the 'commander' arrives on the scene. The clinic defense work can go on in the presence of cops if we think fast, keep our action going, find ways to keep them diverted, or if we outnumber them so completely that they cannot attempt any concerted action." These people are now allied with the top echelons of civil authority in the City and this State: the Radicals have become the Establishment.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:36 AM By Eileen
The blogger warns that he or she does not want the gay movement to be crushed by fascism. The blogger just wanted the gay movement to recruit more death walkers to promote the movement of crushing unborn babies. Maybe the low turn out means that some people are actually sincere about the word tolerance.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:46 AM By BJ
Sad rantings of a demented soul. May the Lord bring him enlightenment and peace.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:55 AM By Grace
Same-sex marriage is “strongly supported by the pro-abortion community” A marriage made in Hell and blessed by Satan himself!
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:43 AM By Observation
The blogger does not understand that the more one promotes abortion and homosexuality, the less people there will be over time.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:59 AM By Joan of El Cajon
Gee, blogger, so sorry about your luck!
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:42 AM By Peter
And the ill conceived, illogical posting of one uninformed anonymous blogger is news why? This person sounds like a complete moron to me. Who cares.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:58 AM By JLS
So the gay community wants to crush families and children ... and all this to protect itself from annihilation by the government they voted for?
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:10 AM By Tom Byrne
"A gay movement CRUSHED by fascism?" Honey, the SA (led by Ernst Rohm) was full of homosexuals, one of whom murdered Rohm because of sexual jealousies. The Nazis had no problems with gays until Hitler feared their networks were compromising party unity. Thereafter opposition was pragmatic, not ideological (as with the Jews) and German gays served in the Army. By the way: it was fascists who (like the anti-life folks) wanted to define and destroy the "unfit".
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:33 AM By DarkKnight
Why people whose relationship by its very definition is barren/sterile should get involved in a reproductive "rights" issue escapes me and apparently the LGBT activists expected the Murder Rights movement expected to attend their blood fest.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:38 AM By John Andersen
While these hate-filled and petulant comments may come from only a few, they are all too symbolic of the pro-homosex contingent in this post-8 world. And, while the mainstream media has refused to carry the negative images and reports of the pro-homosex community, the newly connected Christian ministries (Catholic, protestant) are effectively using the web to put these images in millions of households nationwide in a matter of days. The pro-homosex crowd shows no evidence of wanting to find any common ground, or work toward any mutually agreed upon solutions. I have posted before, "the harder they push, the harder we will push back." And for now, the pedulum is swinging against the normalization of homosexuality.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:46 AM By Grisha
Ho hum ... some anonymous left wing lunatic rants and raves against Catholics, gays, Latinos and the SFPD on an extremist website . Slow news day I guess.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:14 AM By Patrick
That's certainly an irate blogger. The conclusion to be drawn from this is that not only is support from gay marriage entirely distinct from opposition to abortion, but that the pro-abortion movement is foundering. It's up to us then as pro-lifers to make sure that while we peacefully oppose abortion, we don't become fascists.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:23 AM By Life Lady
Wow, Catholics are "facists", what an explosive expression. Where do those people get those ideas? Nazi Germany? What a stretch of the imagination. We must continue to pray for the conversion of the gay and lesbian communities. They are our confused brothers and sisters. When we all join our prayerful presence as happened in San Francisco last weekend, then we will see the true triumph of the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart. They are our example: to Jesus thru Mary.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:34 AM By MarkF
These kind of comments are exactly the kind that I've been pointing to for months on here. Though perhaps a bit more strident than the average, these comments show the real side of the homosexual political community. This is more or less the sort of talk I've heard for years, heard that is when no straight people were around to hear them. The homosexual community puts on a mask when they talk to the public but once in a while that mask will slip and you can see the real face, and it is a face of hatred of the normal, hatred of God, hatred of the family and hatred of the Church. We can see the artificiality of the mask even on here, and can guess pretty well what is beneath that mask too.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:01 AM By OneoftheSheep
Perhaps the message is out that we come in love and in peace. When the gay contingent showed up at a Prop 8 support night at the local Catholic Church, we went out and engaged them in civil and peaceful dialog. Their stories are sad. Their lives are hurting. The Church has the answer in Jesus Christ to the sadness, the hurts they experience and we plan to show the love of Christ to them.
Thank God for the police. When I hear the mild complaints of one demonstrator who lost her way and was refused passage by a policeman, I think of the years when I was battered in Sacramento in full view of the police by these same kinds of arrogant demonstators. Let us forgive each other and work toward peace and happy families in our society.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:51 AM By OurGodisawesome
Just a note from a gay man to let you guys know that not all homosexuals support abortion. It's true that many gays do, and that's very sad, but please don't think all of us support the slaughter of innocents. I may disagree with you guys and gals on marriage, but it is my opinion that there is nothing more vile on this Earth than the killing of babies and I vote accordingly. Take care and God Bless.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:57 AM By Mark from PA
This is only the opinion of one person. Mark F, that poster was speaking out against both the pro-life and the gay communities. The person was not part of the homosexual community he was criticizing them. Many gay people are also pro-life. Being gay and being pro-abortion are two different things. Many gay people have sympathy for the unwanted and the unloved. What happens when they can do pre-natal tests that could show that the child is prone to be gay. Could these children be aborted just like unwanted girls and the disabled?
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:34 AM By Peter
Plus, even though some are wont to link the two together as part of a "culture of death", if you really think about it, abortion is completely at odds with the "gay agenda" given that adoption to same sex couples is very high on the list. For or against gay adoption, you simply cannot adopt what isn't there. Why should it be so surprising, then, that the "gay agenda" is shirking it's "duties" to the pro-choice branch of the militant left? These issues are mutually exclusive. One has nothing to do with the other. Hetero or same sex, I am 100% pro-life/pro-adoption.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:56 AM By John Andersen
Mark from PA: Excellent question! I realize this is not what the article is about (directly), but it is a great topic. Medicine/science is on the precipice of identifying (and curing!) several different "conditions" pre-natally. While I believe that God calls us to reject any abortion, how does God call us when it comes to "changing" the pre-born?" Is changing one condition moral, while changing another is not? I surmise that medical research may reveal to us one day that many behaviors (i.e., sexual) are a combination of nature and nurture. But a "natural" component in a behavior does not make that behavior "right." From a spiritual standpoint, we must ask ourselves: What does God think of this behavior? For the secularists visiting here, you have to ask how a behavior contributes to both the individual and community good.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:57 AM By Elizabeth
When will these poor souls get their history correct? Their signs at the Walk calling us pro-lifers Nazi's is getting old and they should really read a history book... the Nazi's were FOR abortion and contraception! We all need to pray for their conversion and to pray for our newly elected President... Come Holy Spirit!
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:24 PM By Annika
The deep ecology movement ties together the environmentalists with pro-abotionists. There are some in their ranks who tout homosexuality as a superior form of sexuality because it is infertile, but their ideology is tangental..
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:42 PM By St. Christopher
It will be interesting to see how long it is until the homosexual commandos start violence against the pro life movement and even the Catholic Church. Actually, the Church leadership is understood, generally, in homosexual leadership literature as benign, if not supporting, the "gay movement." The fact of lay and other religious courage is now seen, by the homosexual fringe, as a reason to strike out at some institution. Aside from the Mormons, it is likely that homosexual leaders and sympathizers will target Catholic Churches, although there is little issuing from them to challenge homosexual positions.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:05 PM By MarkF
OneOfTheSheep said, "Their stories are sad. Their lives are hurting." So right, but so hard to their hearts. A few months ago someone wrote a great comment based on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas that said that sarcasm was the result of insufficient grief over sin. It's so easy to get sarcastic towards people in the organized homosexual movement, and it's so easy to use words, that while true, are also made out of imperfect sorrow over their sin. Read this person's comments again, and try to imagine the pain that this person is in. The real pain comes from the estrangement from God that comes from homosexuality. And I will swear on my honor that these sentiments are more or less in keeping with those of the average homosexual person that I knew. Most won't put their thoughts into writing. Most won't be as descriptive with labels like "fascist." But let me reiterate that homosexuals put on a mask for the world to see when they are in public. What is beneath that mask is a hatred of the normal, of God and of the Church. Another example of the mask - those parishioners at Most Holy Redeemer parish who act as lectors and extraordinary ministers, but whose names and faces also appear on web sites with pornographic pictures, judging obscene contests. This blogger, though somewhat more strident, speaks what most organized homosexuals think of the Church. I will say it again - there is a religion of homosexuality, and it exists even within people in the Church. All efforts are just to promote homosexuality, all the faith is organized around that one sin, and all criticism is reserved for people who do not promote homosexuality. It's a lie, and this blogger is a crack that offers a view to the reality.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:16 PM By Maria C
MarkF your comments are noble and kind. I appreciate the message you are conveying.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:25 PM By MarkF
John Anderson... please don't buy for one minute the lie that the homosexual orientation is something genetic. Besides there not being one shred of evidence to say that it is genetic, there are a lot of facts that suggest that it is not. One, homosexuality is increasing in western cultures in a way that genetics don't explain. If it were genetic, what would explain the increase in homosexuality at this time? Why would it not have increased in the 19th century or the 12th century? Why is there about twice as much homosexuality in men as there is in women? Why is homosexuality in women more changeable than it is in men? Why is there so much mental health problems associated with homosexuality if it is a random genetic variation? A recent British study showed that despite the recent societal approval of homosexuality, the mental health problems are worse for the younger homosexuals than for the older ones. The origins of homosexuality lie in the early years of childhood - a lack of identification with the parent of the same sex. Since the little boy must switch from identifying with the mother, who has had the closest bond to him, to the father, this is why more young boys develop a homosexual inclination. Little girls do not have to make this leap in order to identify with the parent of the same sex, hence less female homosexuality. This theory also explains why, in this time of the breakdown of the family, we are experiencing a rise in homosexuality. The genetic model is a political theory pushed by homosexual rights groups. It is the breakdown of the family - the absence of a close father - that is the cause of male homosexuality.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:38 PM By Camille
Perhaps the homosexual community has created it's own shortage of members by its very actions?
And, perhaps, there were a majority of Hispanic and Filippino WALKers because the anglo and African-American communities have also reduced their numbers to a precious few through abortion of those who might have become pro life and through contraception.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:51 PM By OneoftheSheep
Mark F, I have been engaging with the homosexual rights elements on the streets of Sacramento while engaged in prolife activities for over 15 years. I listen to their stories. Yes, I have felt their corporate brunt of their hatred towards me, towards my religion, towards those who dare call sin for what it is. And yet, individually, one on one, we are called to bring each and every one of these embittered souls to the love and light of the Lord. Jesus did not ask me to condemn these folks, He asked me to show them love and mercy and tenderness and compassion. And, I intend to do so. I may be rejected, mocked, spit upon and cursed, but I still love my brothers and sisters and want the best for them in this life and in eternal life as well. Pax Christi.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:30 PM By Melissa
I agree with a few of the other posters here... why in the world would pro-aborts assume that people who are practicing/promoting homosexuality (PPH) be on their side? It may be easy to clump them together since we oppose them both... but my sister, who is PPH, is a strident pro-lifer. OneOfTheSheep noted that those with PPH are hurting... absolutely. People suffering from SSA (same-sex attraction) deserve our love and support in order to heal. Linking them with pro-aborts via broad assumptions does not help the healng process.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:45 PM By OneoftheSheep
I don't pretend to be an expert on homosexuality. I look at two cases of it in my own family tree and see that in both cases, a brutal, dictatorial father who mistreated both of his children is very likely the cause of my niece and nephew having a very distorted view of male sexuality. Nevertheless, they are both bright, loving and kind and my nephew struggles with a bipolar disability which is devastating in its effect. Both of them are blessings. I very much see the role my brother in law played as a hateful and hurting father in their formation as children and now young adults. How many homosexuals has Mark F spent time with? How many has he had a cup of coffee with? How many of their stories has he listened to with compassion. It is so easy to condemn and to judge and to make all sorts of assertions. I don't excuse homosexual behavior but I do feel very sorry for those who are so inclined and I pray for them.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:46 PM By Elizabeth E.
Maybe the gays and lesbians (and union members, etc.) were marching with the other pro-life activists. People like this blogger assume that anyone who has a liberal position on any issue must agree with them on abortion and everything else. I've been involved in political organizing in Los Angeles, and I've heard similar sentiments expressed by many fringe activists. They're usually Communists, Socialists, or anarchists.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:52 PM By Almond Milk
Melissa they may need our love but lots of them reject truth and our eagerness to love them with our help.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:04 PM By Mark from PA
The absence of a close father was what people in the 1950's and earlier thought was the cause of male homosexuality. This has pretty much been debunked by the medical and psychiatric community. Most people don't believe this anymore. Most people don't blame male homosexuality on bad parenting. What you said about homosexuality in women being more changeable than in men is true. A lot more women are bi-sexual.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:09 PM By JLS
Melissa, one of the deeper problems with homosexualism is its innate profound confusion. Bye and large, the "agenda" of homosexualist activism is bent on removing God from His throne, and the Church is what stands in their way. They will come up with any manner of fantasy or tactic to advance the destruction of the Church. In the course of their disordered living, they destroy souls who fall for their evil. There are of course homosexuals who do not subscribe to the "agenda", and try to follow Jesus, as they are saddled with the problem and are trying to resolve it according to the Will of God. The objective then is to try to bring some objectivity to the reasoning and faith of those struggling with ssa.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:20 PM By John Andersen
To OneOfTheSheep and others calling for compassion: I appreciate your reminders that Christ wants us to treat the sinner and the broken with compassion and love. No questions there. But the challenge is this: How are the prophets and teachers supposed to speak -- not just from the pulpit, but in the public square? Christians are partly to blame, having been cowed into silence for decades. Those who promote sin have been winning the "speech war" for a long time. And now that the priests/pastors/prophets are finding their voice, they receive primarily criticism as hatefilled bigots. Caregivers are GIFTED to care, and prophets are GIFTED to proclaim the word/Word. While some speakers may certainly be too strident, the answer is definitely not to silence the teachers. No matter how much compassion one may feel, when you say "sin is sin, and you need to leave your life of sin," someone will criticize you for being uncaring. I am open to any suggestion -- except silence.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:22 PM By MarkF
OneOfTheSheep, I'd like to hear your stories of street preaching in Sacramento. Personally, I am kind of suspect as to how much good it can do, and rather more convinced that it can do harm to people, but I'm not totally sure. I am so new to this that I'm not sure about how to talk to people who are so outside of the Church. My belief at this time is that perhaps the best thing we can do is to make sure that they have a good feeling about us as people, and thereby have a good impression of the Church. That may leave them more open to God's grace in the future. If I met an open homosexual on the street - a total stranger who I will most likely never see again - I am not sure if I would talk about homosexuality. Rather I would tell them that I'm Catholic, and leave it for them to understand that I accept the Church's position on this, and try to show them that I'm avoiding all the usual harsh rhetoric that wins an argument but loses a soul. I have done this with at least one couple I met, and I'm convinced I did more in showing them love, while still making it clear I'm a Christian, than if I had talked to them directly about their homosexuality. For Melissa, yes I too have met some openly homosexual people who support life, but you have to say that these are a small minority. There will always be exceptions and humans are an unpredictable lot, but there is something at the spiritual level that makes active homosexual allies of the pro-abortion people, just like there is a natural alliance between people who accept the sexual revolution (cohabitation, birth control) and homosexuality.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:43 PM By Tom
"The blogger does not understand that the more one promotes abortion and homosexuality, the less people there will be over time."
Someone is seriously worried about too LITTLE population???
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:47 PM By Tom
FYI, gay people were created by God.
|
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:12 PM By Anne T.
MarkF, I agree that many homosexuals and lesbians have a problem with their father image, but sometimes it is the mother. Most, but not all, come from very disfunctional families. At least one of the homosexuals I have known had a weak father and a mother who did a lot of cheating on the father and left the family for awhile two different times, but sad to say, the mother might have gotten the idea for her behavior from her own father whom she knew had cheated on her mother at least once. One lesbian I knew had a father who left the mother for another woman. The young woman probably thought she wanted no part of marriage and men after that. Which proves, to some extent, that all of our sins affect others. Homosexual behavior because of the bad marrriages of the parents is not the right answer and certainly does not help the person or society, but it does help us to understand how the person might have gotten that way. Pope John Paul II understood all this when he wrote the play "The Jewelry Shop".
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:05 AM By BJ
Good to hear prolife sentiments from those of same sex
attractions. Their plight is indeed genuinely sad and their reward for loyalty to Christ's teachings (assuming this is forthcoming) will surely be richly rewarded in Heaven, more than the rest of us could ever imagine or expect. But, remember also that many heterosexuals have to accept constraints on their desires.... those desires which invert the Will of God. The Word of God cannot be legislated away for polygamists,adulterers or minority sexual interest groups of any kind.
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:29 PM By Melissa
To those who responded to my post: Please do not infer that I support homosexual behavior in ANY way. I, too, cry out with the faithful for our shepherds to speak the Truth of God. If anyone would like to investigate the causes of same sex attraction please go to the narth website. FYI: The APA and AMA do not speak truth anymore... for there is no scientific basis for same sex attraction. NARTH, which is headed by doctors and PhD's in numerous fields, including former presidents of both the APA and American Pedicatric Assoc. is leading the way for help with those with SSA. God Bless them!
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:54 PM By Anne T.
BJ, your post of 3:05 AM contained many excellent points.
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:16 PM By Marie
I am a loving Catholic who happens to have a gay son. He came from a wonderful upbringing with both Mom and Dad at home who loved him from day one. We always knew he was different...I know it is not his choice. He is my son and I know the truth. He is a loving, kind person whom God loves very much. He does not believe in abortion at all and is a conservative who also does not believe in gay marriage. Unless you are in our shoes, please do not judge us.
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:40 PM By Almond Milk
Marie my compassion to you. No one is judging you. I'm sorry for the pain you are going through. From my studies on homosexuality, I notice that some parents are in denial of what happened to their child, due to not understanding. Some are not completely honest with themselves as well. To many say that they had a good upbringing, maybe so in some instances. But when I have spoken to their son's, most of them are not totally honest or if so they lack the perseverance within themselves to deny themselves of that dysfunctional type of love, they desire it so much, there are many reasons as to what lead them there. It would require their participation in truth to help them. Homosexuality is so complex, it is truly a sin to live out that lifestyle. They are not born that way. I wish we could have more clinics that specialize in helping these good men who seek help from such a confusing lifestyle. But it wouldn't be politically correct and many homosexual's in bad will, will probably fight to close those help clinics down. I don't even know if there are any of them open, maybe only in Christian atmosphere's. Who knows. May our Lord bless you and may you love him enough to give him all the love he needs now but never condoning, just help guide him towards salvation and good will with God. God bless you.
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:24 PM By Mark from PA
Thank you for your comments, Marie. It has pretty much been disproven that bad parenting has anything to do with being a homosexual. Many people believed this many years ago. Most professionals do not believe this and reputable professionals don't try to lay a guilt trip on parents. It is sad how many people stereotype gay people and their parents. It is sad when people can't practice Christian charity.
|
Posted Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:07 PM By JLS
Marie, nobody is judging homosexuals who live moral lives according the Will of God which is taught by the Church. BTW, the term "gay" is a politically loaded term. It serves to link homosexuals to the movement bent on attacking God and the Church.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:49 AM By Mark from PA
Melissa, the NARTH site is filled with old stereotypes about homosexuality. It pretty much blames the parents for a person's homosexuality. This has pretty much been disproved. Many of a person's characteristics are inborn. A lot of the family dynamics are reactions to a person's characteristics and personality. How many parents treat children different because of different personalities. Kids who have parents who are loving and accepting do a lot better. Kids who are rejected (& in some cases even abused because of their orientation) by their parents have the most problems.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:44 AM By Dai Yoshida
Marie: No one is judging you. But with much of the American public embracing the unscientific and un-Catholic belief that "gays are born gay therefore God made them gay", truth must be declared from the rooftop to counter the lies. Contrary to gay propagandas, there is no scientific evidence of a genetic predisposition to homosexuality. Any study to link homosexuality to chemical imbalance is strongly opposed by the gay establishment who fears homosexuality to be classified as an illness. Homosexuality needs to be studied objectively and clinically without personal feelings, presuppositions or political hysteria. Like it or not, it is not a personal issue.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:45 AM By MarkF
Marie, no one can judge us except Jesus, but I spent thirty years living in the homosexual world and I know what I saw and what I continue to see in it. It is a lie that promises one thing but delivers another. In time I think you and your son will see that too. The Church does not ask anyone to become straight, just to live a chaste life, which is all she asks of anyone. I do have something hard to say to you and that is that the public face that we see of the homosexual world is just that - a public face, a mask and a cover used to hide what really goes on. If you've met your son's gay friends, I'm sure you've met some nice people. But these are nice people who are in the grip of something really destructive. It may not affect their work, or their non-sexual friendships. It may be able to be contained to just the sexual area. But it is always something that is destrucive. This is what I've seen and what I continue to see. This is what our Church teaches, and I'm afraid that you need to think a little more closely about this. The choice is not between a total rejection of your son and a total acceptance of this behavior. And I don't know what the path out of this is. I have at least one close friend who is still in the homosexual world, and I don't think there is any one way to get him out of it. But first you have to know that there is a way out of it, and that the homosexual life leads only to unhappiness. Your son may not see this yet, and only you with the help of the Holy Spirit will know when and what to say to him about this. But please, for the sake of Christ and your son, do not accept the lies that the modern world tells you about this. Maybe you could look up a chapter of Courage in your area. This is a Catholic group that helps people with same-sex attraction. Maybe they could be of some help. No one knows the best way to deal with this. It certainly is not a problem that goes away overnight.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:09 AM By MarkF
But we all as Catholics need to know what behavior is right and what behavior is wrong, and homosexual acts are very clearly wrong. I suspect this will take a lot of time for you to see this; it did me too. But please, talk to a good, solid priest about this, and please avoid the ones who dissent from the Church on this matter. This really is a matter of faith in the unseen and of faith in the Church. Take the time to read Hebrews 11. The whole history of God and man is the story of people having faith even when the world tells them otherwise. In Heb 11:25 is even says that there is are "fleeting pleasures of sin." This is what we're seeing with homosexuality. The world tells us today that its OK and maybe even at first glance things seem OK. But God has been telling us since the beginning that it is not. I don't expect anyone to understand this right away, over over time sadly it will become apparent. Now the real question becomes what is a person in your situation to do? One is that I ask you to think differently about this matter. It is not a harmless choice. It is a profound deception with a bad history to it. Again, the choice is not between total rejection of the person and total acceptance of the behavior. Prayer is certainly needed, as is patience. I don't know and no one knows the way out of this. But first I just ask you to believe that there is a way out and there is a need, a very urgent need, to believe that there is a way out. Accepting something this dangerous and doing nothing is probably the worst option. I pray for you and your son.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:04 PM By Almond Milk
About 12 years ago there was a doctor (for the likes of me I can't remember her name) who exposed the world of psychology, some professionals in that field were afraid to do unbiased and truthful research on this dysfunctional lifestyle for fear of losing their jobs and reputation because the homosexual agenda is truly against any such truth, healing or help. That is factual. Same as in the scientific field, watch Exposed by Ben Stein and you will see that even scientists are blacked balled if they believe in intelligent design. Same goes with the homosexual inclinations, that is why our hands are tied and we cannot help these women and men who are confused, some who truly want the help but can't get it because we live in a society that will not permit it. Their reasons are so immoral and instead they are helping them embrace that homosexual lifestyle and it is now affecting our society, this cancer (matter of speech) is spreading and now the word of God is being twisted just so these men and women can embrace and receive acceptance in the secular agenda's. It is something to pity at because they have earned that pity but one can't help but still feel love and compassion but when we show our Christian charity it is not wanted, it is even slandered and ill fully interpreted in so many ways that are far from truth.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:12 PM By Almond Milk
Another thing what we can do to combat the lies about homosexuality is speak the truth about it, continue to preach what our Lord has taught us in holy scriptures. That is what we can do for now and lets pray, pray that God will set us free from the lies of the evil one. God will send hope through our prayers. He already has hand picked His saints who may have to suffer at the hands of the secular world on a temporary basis, to help keep spreading the truth. They are out there, we just don't know it. It could be one of us, it could be you, you will know them by their humility and suffering, ability to endure. We are all called out to be His saints. Some greater than other, but all in the same. We are all unique in His eye's but still in the same way we came to be. God usually unites His people, He is perfect in every way. Trust in the Lord.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:56 PM By MarkF
Almond Milk, thank you so much for what you wrote. You are so right about the secular and atheistic media and scientific community. But even they once in a while stumble upon the truth. There was recent British study where they saw a much higher rate of mental problems in active homosexuals. Google the words BJPsych and "mental illness in gay men." What's really telling is that it is the younger people who have the most mental problems. These are the same people who grew up with the least amount of discrimination and have had the most freedom to practice their homosexuality. But I'd rather talk about the Church because the Church is in need of faithful laity, and not of unfaithful and dissenting Catholics right now. I assume that Marie is a good person but a person, like most of us, who grew up in the wake of the disastrous way that Vatican II was implemented. What we see around us are people who have no love and certainly no respect for the Church, and who have zero faith. Yes, it may be hard to hear, but we really are going to have to talk to these people and if they do not change their views, they must be asked to leave the Church, or at least to refrain from communion. We are not doing anyone good to allow people with hardened hearts, who harbor all sorts of frankly spiritually dangerous views, to continue to give scandal and harm to the Church. This is matter for prayer and then action.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:27 PM By Mark from PA
Excuse me, Mark F, who are you to to tell someone that her son's friends are in the grip of something really destructive? You are really making assumptions here. Perhaps you have made poor choices in making friends but you have no call to project that on someone that you don't even know. You really need to give other people credit. Marie said that her son is a loving, kind person. She didn't say that he needed any help. Perhaps he has reached a level of maturity where he accepts himself and is proud of who he is. She just said, "Please do not judge us."
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:15 PM By Meg
Almond Milk, anyone who researches homosexuality believing it's a "dysfunctional lifestyle" is not doing "unbiased" research. The world of psychology is like the world of doctors: there's a nutty opinion on every corner. Opinions are common. Everyone has one. But high-quality, replicated, peer-reviewed research on the subject is rare, if not non-existent. You can't pick people at random from the public and experiment on their sexuality like mice.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:53 PM By marie
I simply wanted to ask of all of you not to make judgements of people.... I'm not here to change your minds and ask for your advice. I have a deep faith and I am OK. God is taking care of me. Please be careful not to hurt people. Young people need to know we love them no matter what and I will not throw my son into the street for my one job is to love my son and put him in God's hands. God bless all of you
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:08 PM By Meg
Dai Yoshida, you said "there is no scientific evidence of a genetic predisposition to homosexuality." But actually, there is scientific evidence of that, and even groups like NARTH admit as much. Understand, "a genetic predisposition to homosexuality" and "homosexuality is simply genetic" and "born homosexual" are actually three different things. There is scientific evidence that genetics do contribute toward homosexuality, but the extent and significance of that contribution remains unclear, particularly on an individual person by individual person basis. In some people, genetics may play a greater role and in others, a lesser role with respect to homosexuality. At present, genetics is seen as one of a number of factors generally accepted in science as contributing toward homosexuality. As NARTH phrases it, "There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply 'genetic.'" The key word in that sentence is "simply". Likewise, "born homosexual" is not "simply" a matter of genetics, as the pre-natal period combines genetics with the pre-natal environment. "Born homosexual" is a possibility which scientists can neither confirm nor deny at present because scientists are at present unable to test whether anyone is "born homosexual". In summary, there is scientific evidence that genetics do contribute toward homosexuality though homosexuality isn't "simply" genetic, and scientists can't exclude the possibility that some people may in fact be "born homosexual".
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:02 PM By Mark from PA
Thank you again for your comments, Marie. God bless you, your son and all your family. I wish to reiterate what you said, "Young people need to know we love them no matter what." It is very important that we are very careful not to hurt our precious young people.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:54 PM By JLS
Meg, whether or not, it is the behavior that is the issue. Homosexual behavior is grave sin, regardless of the potency of the temptation.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:26 PM By MarkF
Marie, being the only one here who knows a lot about what homosexuality is about, I think I understand something of what you're going through. I do take issue with the word "judge" though. We have opinions. They are opinions of the Church and of all the great saints. But to have an opinion is not to judge. And please, no one - especially me - said anything about throwing your son in the street. You're assuming a very false choice when you posit that the only choice is total acceptance of the behavior and total rejection of the person. Most people have to learn life lessons the hard way through experience. I know I did. The only real thing I can do is to ask you to listen to a guy who's been there and seen it all. What your son knows of homosexuality and what he tells you of it is not the way the story ends. Sin has its day and has its season of pleasure. What I say and what you believe will not change the fact that even in this life, let alone the next, there will be a hard day of reckoning for living in the homosexual world. It is a lie and it deceives good people into believing something that ultimately proves to be their undoing. Some people will persist in believing this out of pride. Some will persist in believing it out continued deception. But the truth will come out, either in this life or next. You're seeing something right now that you think doesn't look so bad. No sin looks bad at first, doesn't it? This is why I think it all comes back to faith. Read Hebrews 11 and think about how these people, who did not know how the story would end, depended on God in spite of what the world told them and even what their own eyes saw. And please don't say that you only have two choices - total acceptance of the behavior or total rejection of the person. The big lie is that the inclination is the person. It's not and I'm living proof of it. Love does not let someone do something that is so bad for them.
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:36 PM By MarkF
Meg, if homosexuality is genetic and not the result of the lack of identification with the parent of the same sex, then why is homosexuality increasing - only in western cultures - precisely as these same cultures are seeing a breakdown of the family? Genetic conditions don't increase in accordance with social problems. Why did Greek homosexuality wax and then wane? Can genetics explain that? If this is genetic, then how did it spread from Greece to Rome? Did the Greeks breed with the Romans to spread homosexuality?
|
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:42 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, It is very important for people to understand that you do "not" agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church. That is your choice because you do have a free will. This point should be made clear. Not one person who defends the Magisterial Teachings gave the advice to not love people. Not one person judged anyone's soul Mark. Mark you have disagreed with important teachings of the Catholic Church. You support same sex marriage. These are contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church. You are making your own rules. You, do not have the market cornered on love for fellow Catholics struggling with SSA. God does. God also knows better than you Mark what is necessary to gain salvation. Our salvation is not gained by marshmallow and fluffy feelings. It takes more love to tell someone that homosexual acts and same sex marriage are offensive to God. That is not judging souls that is reminding those who defend sin that there are painful consequences. It takes more courage and love to teach what the Church teaches than to tell everyone that they can feel great no matter who they are hurting or offending. Mark, it is very strange to read your post about telling "others" to be careful about not hurting our precious young people when you just voted for the most politically aggressive unborn baby killer for President of the United States. The first thing Obama did was rush in to increase funding the murder of precious young people. How "careful" was your vote for those babies?
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 11:07 AM By Almond Milk
I agree with everything Eileen, MarkF, Dai Yoshida, JLS and other's who are faithful in which posts are in agreement with those mentioned here in my post. They are truly in obedient to Christ and His church. Their posts are noble and filled with true charity. True with being key because anyone that posts different/opposite from what the church teaches and with holy scriptures is truly in error and promoting their own agenda just so they can receive acceptance of their own sinfulness. It is also a sin to deceive, to condone and to lead others into sin.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 1:12 PM By MarkF
All, so what are we to do now? Have we really reached anyone? Sure we've helped each other by giving each other some support and maybe some new ways of expressing our ideas, but have we helped anyone else really? What about Marie and the others? I went to a talk last night at my parish called Spiritual Warfare: The Battle for Life in a Culture of Death. The speaker did not tell us to be politically active or even to pray for a political solution to the culture of death, part of which for sure is homosexuality. What he told us to do is to pray for an inner transformation of ourselves and then to reach out to others near us to bring them into the culture of life. He recommended prayer, mortification and silence. These web postings have their place but they are no substitute for one on one evangelization. And for Marie, I hope you can find it in your heart and soul to see past the false choice of total acceptance of the behavior and total rejection of your son. Your son is his own person, so he will have to make up his own mind. But he needs you out there to be praying for him to move past homosexuality into a life that is in the light. This probably means you saying a rosary for him and going to daily Mass for him for twenty years before you see anything happen. During whatever time it takes, you don't have to be preaching to him or avoiding his friends. My God I wish I had had some strong family member in the Church all those years I was away who could have been a point of contact for me back to the Church. The worst thing you can do for him is not to pray for him to get out of this, and to help him to think it's fine for him to still receive communion in the Church while he's still practicing homosexuality or still supporing homosexuality.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 1:22 PM By Meg
MarkF, you began your post with the premise "if homosexuality is genetic," but my post clearly explained that "is genetic" is not the same as "is simply genetic." Nowhere in my post did I say or even imply that behavior is simply a matter of genetics. "Predisposition" speaks to a tendency or inclination, and not necessarily to an actuality. Therefore, various genetic predispositions can exist at a relatively fixed rate across time and across societies, and yet different societies at different times may see increases and decreases in some genetically predisposed behaviors. The research simply does not support simplistic theories such as "lack of identification with the parent of the same sex" as being adequate explanations.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 2:48 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, the priest that I go to for confession and have known since I was 16 has never told me that I do not agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church. He has expressed admiration for my faithfulness. Most of my classmates go to Mass every once in a while as this is the custom with many people today. I would think that my confessor who has an MS, MSW, PHD and Master of Divinity is surely a better judge than you are . And for your information I did discuss voting with him before election day and also after. Hopefully increased funding for health care under Obama will lead to a decrease in the number of abortions. I personally think that ALL children and pregnant women should be covered by health care.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 4:07 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, being homosexual is NOT being part of the Culture of Death. If someone has the homosexual orientation it is not something they need to move past. It is part of who they are. You talk about him practicing homosexuality. Do you tell straight people that they are practicing heterosexuality. You talk about praying for him to get out of it. It is not some kind of club. And who are you to tell someone not to receive communion? I find your last statement to be offensive.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 4:25 PM By Grisha
Mark from PA: Also - I understand that Congress has the power to prohibit insurance companies from defining pregnancy as a pre-existing, non-covered, condition. I wonder how many abortions that would prevent.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 5:19 PM By MarkF
And Eileen, can you please find some way to write to me? It's outnaway@hotmail.com. Even create a temporary new e-mail address?
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 5:19 PM By JLS
PA, evidently you're not telling him what you tell us on these posts.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 5:25 PM By JLS
Meg, the research is an attempt to discover facts, not truth. The truth is what Catholicism is about, and it is what MarkF is trying to convey to you. It makes no difference in terms of sin and salvation whether homosexual inclincation is genetic. What matters is the behavior. God gave man free will; however, if you're of an ideology such as Calvinism or others, then you might try to ignore this Doctrine, as it would not make any sense to you. But the truth is that no matter what the particular accident of nature a human is endowed with, all human beings have free wil, and are charged by God to choose good and not evil, to resist temptation. We all are tempted by various sinful things ... much of human life is divinely ordered to resist these temptations. Through Jesus Christ we have the power and authority to do so.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 5:46 PM By Almond Milk
Thanks MarkF great posts. I hope Marie listens to your advice.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 6:46 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Your priest may have all those degrees, but he is not God. God is truth; not your educated priest. God says ACTIVE homosexuality is a mortal sin and so is approving of it according to Church teaching. As far as voting for the Obamanation, the increased spending for women's healthcare will double the amount of abortions. It will promote birth contol which causes abortion. The birth control pill causes abortions. That is a fact!
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 8:54 PM By Anne T.
Marie, I was not judging all parents of those with same-sex attraction. I know that some have been good parents. I read a book years ago by one such parent called "Put a Geranium in Your Hat and Be Happy". She was an Evangelical Christian. Although, she did not approve of her son's conduct, she still loved and prayed for the prodigal son's return. I was just expressing what I have seen in many cases of those who are very active or angry homosexuals or lesbians. It sounds as if you have a good son who has been greatly helped by your and your husband's good influence. That is not the situation in many cases.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 9:03 PM By Anne T.
Marie, I was assuming in my last post that your son is living a chaste life. The woman who wrote the book was assuming or knew her son was not.
|
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 9:59 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, Does this priest know that you regularly post dissenting opinions on a Catholic blog regarding same sex marriage? Perhaps the priest is unaware of your contrary posts that defend sin. Why don't you ask him if it is alright to support same sex marriage?
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 11:57 AM By Mark from PA
RR, are you kidding me here? "The increased spending for women's healthcare will double the amount of abortions." Where did you get that from? I will have to ask me priest friend what he thinks of that. This priest has known me all of my adult life so he knows me a lot better than any of you here. Eileen, I have actually told me priest friend of many of the discussions here. I discussed the election comments with him and actually asked him for advice on who to vote for. I have never discussed same sex marriage with him. I know that the Church does not believe in same sex marriage and I assume that my friend does not support it.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 12:10 PM By Meg
JLS, you said, "It makes no difference in terms of sin and salvation whether homosexual inclincation is genetic," but that is not in agreement with Church teaching. Church teaching says, "To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability." And, "Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors." Even though homosexual acts may be grave matter, they can be venial rather than mortal sins "when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent." Though God originally gave man "free will", that freedom is impinged upon by any of the many factors listed above, of which many (if not all) have genetic components to them. Thus, contrary to your claim, genetics may make a significant difference. So, yes, behavior matters, but per Church teaching, it must be considered in light of all the factors, including genetics. It's thus not surprising that the Church teaches that "we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God."
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:36 PM By MarkF
On the reception of communion, from the Catechism, paragraph 1457, “Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.” How do homosexual acts fit into this? Paragraph 2357, “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.’” What is it called when one treats the Eucharist unworthily? Paragraph 2120, “Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.” St. Paul, 1 Cor 11:27-30, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.” I might add that in many places the Bibles uses the term “death” to mean either a physical and spiritual death.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:42 PM By MarkF
Eileen, the list of dissent that we have seen on site alone it pretty long - believing that homosexual acts are not always sinful, disbelief in the inspired nature of all scripture, denial in the existence of the devil and forces of spiritual darkness, accusing the current pope of having "bigoted" views, advocating the reception of the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin, encouraging others to sin, refusal to repent, refusal to learn what the Church believes, intentionally spreading misinformation about Church doctrine and practice, etc.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:49 PM By MarkF
Mark from PA, I really don’t know what to do or to say. I don’t think the exchange of messages is helping anyone, but in all charity I have to say that I’ve struggled to be able to respond to you. God’s grace works in His own way, and the greatest commandment of all is to love each other. But that’s not so simple to put into action. St. Paul describes a nasty fight between the Christians in Corinth and himself, and he alludes to a letter he wrote in anger. Some think there may have even been a physical attack on St. Paul and St. Paul at first seems to have responded with anger towards certain of the Corinthians. The larger issue is whether it is love to let someone remain in sin, or is it better to have peace at the cost of not correcting a fellow Christian. I don’t know your conscience. I can only go on what I see, and I see a man who rejects a great deal of what the Church teaches.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:50 PM By MarkF
At heart this is not about your life experiences or mine. It is about faith in God. Faith in God and in the mission of his Son and Spirit, and faith in his pilgrim Church puts us at odds with much of the world, but “…what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36) Faith means believing in things that our eyes don’t see, “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” (Heb 11:1). The world right now tells us that homosexual acts are a fine, even laudable practice. The Church tells us otherwise. It really is that simple. No one expects anyone to change overnight, but we have to let go of our own wishes and accept what the Church teaches wholly – not in part – in order to be set free from our sinful nature. I struggle every day to live a Christian life. I don’t always make it, but I swear on my honor that I accept what the Church teaches on all subjects – on personal holiness, on serving God and my fellow man, and on showing love to all men.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:54 PM By Grisha
Meg: What is the source of your quote which begins ""To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action...?" The CCC? If so, which section? Thanks.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:57 PM By Mark from PA
I don't consider accusing people of things they have never done to be showing love to anyone.
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:28 PM By MarkF
Meg, what you say is very true, but I ask, what's the next step after that's said? We all are weak and all have temptations. Are we to say that since we have a fallen human nature that we're not responsible for our actions? But how many of us are so seriously mentally ill or so mired in sin that we don't even know how ill we are or how mired in sin we are? If we have even a shred of self-awareness, we are still bound to confess our sins and ask for God's grace to help us stop from sinning. God will have mercy on us if we are at least trying. But you left out the part of the Catechism that says that to have a hardened heart - to willfully not try to avoid sin, to not ask for God's grace, or to pretend not to hear what we're doing is a sin - is an even worse sin. Yes, no one can know the state of another's conscience. But what you're arguing for could be an excuse for laxity, or the sin of sloth - "I can't help it, so why try?" Why the pro-homosexual ideology is so damaging is that it tells people not to ask for God's grace to avoid sin. Sure, depending on their formation, who knows the exact state of a person's conscience? But there is no way that grave actions can be good for anyone, and all are called to repent and to heed God's call. So what you've said is partially true, but it is not good pastoral care to tell people to be lax with their salvation, or worse, not to even try. The apostles told many people that they were sinning: St. Paul and the Corinthian man living in incest with his step-mother, St. Peter and Ananias and Sapphira, St. Peter and Simon the magician. No one told the apostles that they can't tell another person what they're doing is a sin. St. Peter didn't ask Simon if he had a bad childhood or if he was genetically predisposed to be greedy. Rather he said, "Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you."
|
Posted Saturday, January 31, 2009 11:20 PM By Anne T.
Mark F, your posts are just great. Don't let anyone drag you down into gutter. Keep the Faith Mark F. Remember St. Paul had a "thorn" in his side too, which he fought to the end. We do not know what it was, but we all have one or more "thorns" in our sides to overcome. Keep me in your prayers, please, and I will keep you in mine.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 5:02 AM By RR
Mark from PA: I don't know if it will double or not. That's my oppinion. What I was trying to get you to see is that the stimulus package the Obamanation is seeking, will be giving much of the money to places like Planned Parenthood and the like, which in turn will have more women seeking & using birth control. It will be readily available. So, if the reason you voted for the Obamanation was so more women could have health care, just know the birth control pill causes an abortion and that IS A FACT. So, if more women are using birth control, obviously more abortions will be occuring. Also, I didn't say women's health care was a bad thing. What I tried to convey to you was the fact that the Obamanation was going to give a majority of the money to Planned Parenthood. So if you voted for him because of women's health care, just know that there WILL BE more abortions due to the pill. By the way, why did you vote for the Obamanation? What was your reason? I'm curious.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 5:22 AM By RR
Isn't it amazing how dissenters of Church teaching can always find a dissenting priest to agree with them!!
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:02 AM By Mark from PA
Mark F, I have different priorities in my faith than others, it seems. Mass and the Eucharist are central to my faith. I was brought up to attend Mass every Sunday and always have. Was this your custom throughout your life? Here is a quote from the Religion text that I use, (one of the rules of the Church) "To lead a sacramental life, to receive Holy Communion frequently and the sacrament of Penance regularly." At the least one is to confess their sins in the Sacrament of Penance at least once a year and also to receive Holy Communion at least once a year, between the First Sunday of Lent and Trinity Sunday (Easter Duty).
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:38 AM By Mark from PA
Mark F, it seems that we have different faith backgrounds. I have never heard homosexuality condemned in 12 years of Catholic schools or from the pulpit. I was raised in an atmosphere of respect for others. I have never actually heard a woman verbally express hatred for the homosexual orientation. So when I hear some of the women here express hatred for homosexuality it is something very foreign to me and upsetting. I am sorry if I annoy many here but hearing people express hatred for the homosexual orientation is hurtful. To me being gay or bi-sexual is not a sin.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:50 AM By Grisha
Mark F: While I expect there have been a few true dissents from the teaching magestrum of the Church here over the past few months, I suspect a lot of what you refer to is dissent from conservative, sometimes very conservative, interpretations of those teachings. Our rich Catholic intellectual tradition allows for a wide range of theological differences and debate. Dismissing someone as a a "CINO" calling people heretics, playing a game of sanctimonious
"Gotcha" etc. doesn't help us help each other in a mutual quest for the true understanding of Christ's message.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:43 AM By MarkF
Griaha, I hope that you have seen in me someone who is struggling to understand how to live the teachings of the Church. I have apologized and thought long and hard on many things raised here. But to be blunt, we have one person, Mark from PA, who plainly refuses to do the same. This is why I do not direct any comments to him directly, while I will talk directly to Aaron, Peter or any of the others who more or less take the same position as Mark from PA. He does not debate fairly. Yet again, we get the same line about how I am against the orientation and not the sin. How many times do I have to state the obvious, and yet the man continues to provoke all of us with this rot? We are dealing here with something very different than a divergence of opinions. Aaron and Peter both disagree with the Church on these matters, but both of them will answer a question fairly and directly. Both know they are opposed to Church teaching. Mark from PA pretends that he isn't, while at the same time hiding his opposition behind a massive smokescreen. I suspect that his life experiences have created this situation, and Lord knows I have tried more than anyone else to get past the smokescreens but have failed. There's a word that's missing here, and that word is repentance. It's something I know all too well about, having had to confess for over thirty years of un-Godlike actions. I continue to purge the lingering affects of that time out of me. I know about humility and repentance. I take this very seriously. But when I try to help someone and only get back smokescreens, pride and confusion, I have to say that I am finished. I do not mind talking to Aaron, Jimbo, Peter, etc. because they are essentially honest and fair. Mark from PA is not. I can't say what his conscience is, but last year when I was not still practicing homosexuality, but was still accepting the homosexual ideology, my priest told me that I was not ready for communion.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 1:15 PM By Eileen
Grisha, It is not surprising but it is disappointing that you and Mark from PA do not understand or accept the wise and loving posts of Mark F. There is not one bit of "gotcha" in Mark F's courageous posts. The "gotcha reaction" just might hopefully be your inner goodness recognizing truth while your outer rebellion rejects it. There is no such thing as very conservative, ultra-conservative or liberal or ultra liberal. There is Catholicism. You either accept it or you reject it. You either defend sin or you promote the Teachings of the Catholic Church. You and Mark from PA defend homosexual marriages and attending them. That is just one aspect of the many truthful examples of dissent that Mark F. posted. Grisha, instead of resenting Mark F's explanation you should be admiring the incredible amount of obvious grace that he has struggled to achieve.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:03 PM By Mark from PA
RR, I changed my registration to Democratic in the Primary to vote for Obama because I did not want Hillary Clinton to be the Democratic nominee. I did not want 4 more years of the Clintons in the White House. I liked John McCain and surely would have voted for him 8 years ago but I thought we needed a younger person as President. I have great respect for John McCain but I think it would have been too great a stress for him. Also I felt that the country needed a major change as we were moving in the wrong direction. The monied interests had taken control of our country and we are all paying the price now. The middle class has suffered as the median income has gone down since 2000 while the incomes of the rich continued to rapidly rise. I truly believe that Obama's health policies will lead to a DECREASE in the number of abortions. If I felt that electing Obama would lead to an increase in the number of abortions I most certainly would not have voted for him. I actually discussed the election with my priest and he said that one cannot be a one issue voter but one must look at the big picture.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:13 PM By Mark from PA
RR, I answered you question but I want to tell you that I consider Obamanation to be an offensive and racist term. I protest such prejudicial language. It is not clever or funny.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:32 PM By JLS
PA, you sound like you are slyly confusing homosexual orientation with homosexual behavior. The posts on this topic always condemn the behavior and those who perpetrate, perpetuate, and advocate homosexual behavior. The condition of homosexuality is not being condemned. Now, when someone attempts to exalt the disorder of homosexuality, then that deserves condemnation.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:14 PM By RR
Mark from PA: I already explained to you in a prior post (Article Archives:Transmitting the Faith-Posted Monday, January 26, 2009 3:38 PM By RR to you and Fr.M.P.)
why I call Obama, The Obamanation. As I said in my prior post to you & Fr.M.P. as to why I call him that; IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS RACE!! It is what he stands for and believes in. It's an abomination what he believes and stands for. I am not trying to be funny, nor clever, nor racist. It's how I see his BELIEFS. I really don't care if you see it as an offensive and racist term. The posters on here know I am NOT a racist and that it is your motis operandi to label people a racist when they condemn the Obamanation. You just want me to look bad to others. Also, I protest you calling me a racist. I find it offensive.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:18 PM By MarkF
Grisha, I myself don't know if you support same-sex marriage or not, or what exactly your position is about same-sex activity. So I'll stay out of that one. I thought about the whole liberal - conservative label, and about the related issue of what does it mean that there is a range of opinion in our tradition. As far as what is revealed dogma goes, the words liberal and conservative are meaningless. There is only faithful or not. The next question is, what exactly are the dogmas and how do we now that another belief may be part of the tradition, but not necessary to salvation? Since this whole topic is overheated, let me give an example from something I read the other day. I was reading on a website by the Russian Orthodox Church where the bishop was unfavorably comparing what he said was the Catholic belief on Christ's descent into hell with the Orthodox view. He said that the Orthodox Church believes that Christ in some sense is still and will always still be in hell to preach to all people - Christian or not - so that all people are offered a chance at salvation. I had never heard this idea of Jesus in some sense perpetually in being in hell to preach. He contrasted this erroneously by saying that Catholics think that the descent of Jesus to hell was a one-time event, and was only to save the Jewish patriarchs. So I looked at the Catechism. It said that Jesus's descent to hell was to offer salvation to "all men of all times and all places." Hmm. So while it was not affirming the Orthodox belief in a Jesus who preaches to all people after death, it clearly linked the descent to hell with salvation being offered to all people of all times. So what's this got to do with us here? The dogma is that is that salvation is made available to all men in all places at all times. The specifics as to how that happens, whether by meeting Jesus after death, or through God's grace in this life are not defined.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:43 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Thanks for answering my question. I both agree and disagree with your post. I agree in that I would not want the Clintons in the White House. I disagree that The Obamanation is better. I think you were discriminating against McCain because of his age. We all have stress in our lives and we just deal with it. Just because he is older & under stress doesn't mean he couldn't run our country. It's a little judemental on your part to assume he was even under stress. I assume McCain never confided to you that he was under stress. I saw no stress whatsoever. There also was more than just the Democrat & Republican parties to have voted for. I agree this country was moving in the wrong direction, but it's going to go even worse with the Obamanation in there. You are right that the monied interests have taken control of our country and we are paying the price. We will be paying a bigger price though in the near future now with the Obamanation because God is going to be punishing us in our pocketbooks and many other ways because he is offended with the beliefs & actions of the Obamanation. This country is going to pay a big price for electing this man to office. How could you have voted for the Obamanation when he was promising (BEFORE THE ELECTION) that the first thing he was going to do when he got in office was to sign the FOCA? Shouldn't that have been a clue to not vote for him? As far as a one issue vote, nothing else nor any other issue means anything when the most innocent citizens are being denied the right to life and brutally killed in what should be the safest place in the world; the mothers womb!
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:46 PM By MarkF
For us here, the dogma which is essential to salvation is that homosexual acts are always a grave matter. There really isn't any room on that score. What's not dogma is how to pastor to a whole culture of active homosexuals. Though that part is open to debate, what can't happen is that the Church's pastoral care end up supporting the behavior or the ideology that supports the behavior. Now what about this whole suggestion of Meg's that since we can't say for sure when someone's mental problems, habits, duress, etc., makes their grave behavior not to a mortal sin, so that no one can advise another Christian about their lives? One, that is not scriptural. St. Paul took on the Corinthian man who was having sex with his own step-mother. St. Paul didn't ask whether the man had such a strong Oedipus complex that he could not help himself. St. Peter disciplined Ananias and Sapphira for cheating the Church of money. He didn't stop from doing this out of concern that maybe they had a sick child to feed, or were suffering from compulsive greed due to childhood trauma. Besides that, are we to assume that people with SSA are so psychologically damaged that they cannot help themselves, and more to the point, are so damaged that they cannot be asked to repent, because they will always fail? Or are we to assume a special status for people with SSA that is not given to all people? All unmarried people are called to chastity. Yes, the sex drive is so strong that it weakens the will, and perhaps with some even lessens the guilt, but can we have a policy that asks chastity of the unmarried but not for people with SSA? Some people have said that people with SSA are so caught in their own passions as to have what is called invincible ignorance, i.e., they truly cannot stop or cannot know that it's wrong. (paragraph 1793) This reduces people with SSA to the level of someone who is severely mentally retarded, has a brain tumor or is hallucinating.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:48 PM By Meg
MarkF, you say “what you're arguing for could be an excuse for laxity, or the sin of sloth,” and I say, anything under the sun can be an excuse for that. Indeed, the hardline message that many CCD posters repeatedly post has long served and continues to serve as the premier excuse for many to stop listening and turn away. You talk of the “pro-homosexual ideology” as damaging, but many say the anti-homosexual ideology is just as damaging if not more. No surprise then that the Church makes a special effort to say, “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.” You claim to have “seen it all” and “being the only one here who knows a lot about what homosexuality is about,” but for all that you’ve seen, you haven’t seen it all, and for all that you know, you don’t know a lot. You’re not the “only one here” who knows so little. You ask, “What’s the next step?” But did you not hear, the first is the last. “Be still and know that I am God!” says the LORD.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:05 PM By MarkF
We've heard all kinds of people say that their conscience is clear. We've heard that on this site even. Since the Church makes a person's conscience the centerpiece of their guilt over sin, it's often said that if you don't think it's a sin, then it's not. Well, look at paragraph 1791. This section tells us what to think and to do when our own conscience tells us that something the is right when the Church tells us it is wrong. The Catechism refers to this as an ignorant conscience. "This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin." In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits." This my friends is what we're seeing today, people - like myself for thirty some years - who take little trouble to find out the truth and whose sin bit by bit blinded the conscience so that we thought that what we were doing was fine. So yes, no one can tell another for sure that they are in a state of mortal sin. But for a person to be committing a whole series of actions that are grave and not to be in a state of mortal sin, we'd have to assume that they either have a brain tumor, are totally psychotic through no fault of their own, are severely retarded, hallucinating all the time, or have some sort of severe mental problem that renders their free will powerless. It is very interesting that some want to use the out of psychological problems, strength of the passions, habit, etc. only for people (men mostly) with SSA but no one wants to cut those poor single straight guys the same break.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:57 PM By Mark from PA
RR, I also thought that Joe Biden was better qualified to be President plus he is a Catholic. I thought that Palin was OK for Vice President but not qualified to be President. It was interesting. I got on a discussion about this and the women were really bashing Palin. I protested a little. I said that they were really getting out the long knives for another woman and said that Palin was neither the second coming not the spawn of Satan. Wow did these ladies go after me. They went on that Palin was ignorant and an idiot. One lady told me, "Look a long knife and you're not female." Another told me to kiss a certain body part. They were not happy with me and told me where I could go.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 5:31 PM By Grisha
Mark F: Contrary to Eileen's understanding I was NOT suggesting that you were "playing a game of sanctimonious "Gotcha" etc." but rather, that the phenomena generally occurs in the forum frequently and retards rational discussion. The position that seems to be sometimes taken here that it a person has committed a mortal sin and be denied communion SOLELY on the basis of either A) voting against Prop 8 and / or B) Voting for President Obama, is in error.
I can't speak for Mark fm PA, but let me say for myself A) I reluctantly accept the need for same sex marriages IF, as appears is the case, we can't compromise on a system of State civil unions recognized at the Federal level and B) I voted for Obama because i) I didn't believe the outcome of the election would necessary significantly impact the number of abortions over a 4 or 8 year term and ii) I believed that as President, Sarah Palin could, by miscalculation, get us into a war - even a nuclear war - with Russia, one of the few things worse that abortion. I may have been wrong, but after reading "Faithful Citizenship" and listening to a discussion of it by Bishop Justice, I believe the reasons for my choices were in line with the teachings of the Church. Oh and Eileen - I've never attended a same - sex wedding.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 8:13 PM By Meg
"You either accept it or you reject it." Dr. Nicolosi says one can accept and yet not agree: "We accept their choices even if we don't agree with them, because we accept the person," he says. Meanwhile, Fr. Hardon says, “The either/or fallacy is ALWAYS just that — a meretricious assignment of validity to one point of view with the attendant obliteration of any counter system. This blindness lends itself to a bigotry quite often found in social and political systems, but no such taint should ever be allowed to mar our religious and ethical behaviors.”
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 8:16 PM By Mark from PA
Grisha, I have never attended a same sex wedding either but they don't have it in my state. I have talked with some people with same sex partners on the internet but have never actually met or socialized with any same sex couples. I don't get out much outside of work, except for going to church. I realize that the Church does not approve of same sex marriage as matrimony is considered a Sacrament. I read that polls show that most Catholics do not approve of same sex marriage but do approve of civil unions.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 8:45 PM By MarkF
Meg, that last post of yours was one of the best I’ve seen recently, especially the first past where you ask if the hard line approach has served as an excuse for many to stop listening and turn away. This is where the Church really has no dogmatic solution – how to get people to convert. You are so right that yelling at people won’t get them in. But it also has to be said that the other approach has not worked either – the approach where you just let anyone into the communion, never ask them to repent, always tell them they are fine as they are, and just hope that the Holy Spirit changes them. Now the Spirit can do wonders, and many times even miracles. But when the Church doesn’t also have some discipline in its message, people will develop a wall to block the action of this Spirit. Take this Most Holy Redeemer parish In SF. Instead of the Church changing these people, they want to change the Church. In this country we’ve had a pastoral approach that tries at all cost not to offend people. It has to be said that this has lead to a disaster. We have a situation where most Catholics are in dissent – most are contracepting, cohabiting, or having premarital sex. Many are having abortions or are practicing homosexuality. These are the big issues where there is dissent, but there’s also the problem of people not living up to the standards where they agree with the Church – issues like greed, lack of care for the poor, not working for peace, etc.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 8:45 PM By MarkF
As far as homosexuality goes, I really don’t know how to get more people to stop acting out on what is a really destructive lifestyle. I’m trying to get one good friend into the Church, and he has some interest in it. Right now I’m praying for him, giving him the time for the Spirit to work on him and trying to be a good example for him. I have not said one word about homosexuality to him and I won’t unless he asks. But this is my own work. As far as the Church goes, I do think that priests should tell all people who have SSA that they cannot receive communion unless they are in agreement with the Church that this is a grave matter, and that they have to repent and work to get themselves out of it. The same should go for straight cohabitation, people who are remarried after divorce, using birth control, etc.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 8:53 PM By Eileen
Grisha, You "did" tell a woman, (who asked if she could, as a Catholic, attend a same sex wedding in San Diego) "Go ahead and have fun." Did you forget that? Why would you advise a sister in Christ to offend God? Grisha if you love your neighbor as yourself this must mean that you think it is alright. It makes absolutely no sense that you don't agree with it but that you would tell someone else to "go and have a good time offending God!" Grisha, do you still believe it was right for you to tell this woman seeking counsel on a Catholic blog to go ahead and attend the same sex wedding? This is what I do not understand about you. Grisha, You have many kind attributes and you do know what the Church teaches. It is one thing to privately struggle to do the right and try to be pleasing to God. It is quite a different story when you use your internal dissent to influence another soul to go astray. I do appreciate the fact that your responses are at least lucid. Please help Mark from PA to not offend God. You are validating his dissent Grisha. That is no different than telling that woman to attend the wedding. Not one of these people who you are risking your Eternal Life for by giving them bad counsel will be standing next to you at your particular judgment day. Why are you doing it then? Don't you want to go to heaven?
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:32 PM By MarkF
Grisha, I’m with you that how a person votes and how that relates to their conscience is a tricky business. Like you said, a lot of it goes to what you believe to be true. If you believed that Sarah Palin could start a nuclear war, well that’s certainly a grave moral concern. You may be wrong, but we’re told that it’s not immoral to be wrong if we’ve tried our best. Read paragraphs 1790-1794 of the Catechism, great stuff about when it’s moral to be wrong and when it’s not. I would say one thing about the idea that abortion is a “single issue.” Suppose we had a candidate who was clearly working for the poor, for peace, justice, the environment… but who was also a blatant racist. Would anyone say that this was just a “single issue” and still vote for him? I met a woman last week at the Right to Life March who said she voted for Obama because abortion was a single issue. I wondered if somehow deep down at some level if she thought that abortion was not the same as murder. Would anyone say that infanticide of the newborn was a single issue? The vote of a citizen is a dicey moral area. However, the votes our politicians cast in Congress are not. There is no way people like Pelosi, Biden, the Kennedy’s, Guliani, etc. should be receiving communion. Educate the voters. Ban the politicians.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:50 PM By Meg
MarkF, you speak of "sin bit by bit blinded the conscience so that we thought that what we were doing was fine," but what of the many innocent children who thought it was fine before they ever engaged in homosexuality? You say, "for a person to be committing a whole series of actions that are grave and not to be in a state of mortal sin". But I don't believe that applies any more to homosexual persons than to heterosexual persons (male or female, single or married), or to you since your epiphany. So don't say "no one wants to cut those poor single straight guys the same break" Even if I'm told someone has engaged in grave acts for 30 years, even if they admit it to me themselves, no matter how reasonable it might seem to me to believe they're in mortal sin, the Church teaching still says "we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God." Why should I judge anyone guilty of mortal sin? As Jesus said, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." You say, "we'd have to assume they either..." Maybe they are. Maybe we all are. It's not for me to say.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 10:15 PM By Eileen
RR, That's amazing. Joe Biden is a Catholic who promotes pro-choice, practices plagiarism and deep belief in hair plugs. I guess that makes him more qualified to some people.
|
Posted Sunday, February 01, 2009 10:25 PM By Anne T.
But you did tell someone else to attend a same-sex wedding, Grisha, because I remember as I am sure JLS and others whom come to this website do too.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 3:22 AM By BJ
Voting for any party which increases abortion by even one more innocent death, involves the voter directly in that death. Doesn't matter what any multi qualified priest tells you. It's a simple fact. You helped to fill that syringe. Better not to vote than have that death on your conscience. Human sexuality will stabilise when abortion is stopped. What really can be worse than slicing up babies in the womb and throwing the parts in a bin? What price your vote?
When the natural order is horrifically and brutally rejected from conception, later deviations are surely related. But the 'deviants' are not personally culpable, in the same way that cancer or suchlike victims aren't, .... but society is surely culpable... for allowing the initial horror to exist and insisting in many cases that it isn't 'wrong', but indeed a 'right' and the benefits a particular politician brings outweigh such horrific realities.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 6:53 AM By JLS
PA, Biden is not Catholic, but votes solid pro-abortion.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 6:59 AM By JLS
Grisha, "faithful citizenship" has been taken to task by the Vatican, for its misleading character. Now you claim to be Catholic ... what about obedience to the Pope and a hundred American bishops including cardinals who said not to vote for abortionist Obama? It was Luther who taught to form your own interpretation, not the Church. There is something called the "Mind of Christ", and it is neither divisive nor a crock of personal opinions. Who told you that nuclear war with Russia would be worse than abortion? War is not intrinsically evil, but abortion is.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 1:47 PM By Grisha
JLS: Read the "Cold and the Dark" by Carl Sagan published about 1984.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 1:51 PM By Rick DeLano
Well, as one of the 30,000 who actually marched in San Francisco, I can state:
1. The blogger has excellent reason to be disturbed. I almost didn't bring my sons with me, what with all the blustery big-talking about how the pro-death forces were going to "surround us" and "send us back home in our busses". My sons being true Catholics, and of the age where such decisions ought to be made in consultation with them, THEY CAME.
2. When the overwhelming tide of pro-life, beautiful, light-filled souls came upon the chokepoint at which the agents of the demonic powers chose to make their engagement, it was momentarily disorienting, as these harpy-like soldiers of the Evil One descended upon our lines-several shouting directly into my ears with bullhorns (I will not repeat the blasphemies here)!
3. My sons and I began to recite the rosary, holding up pictures of Our Lord's Sacred Heart. We marched, they shrieked, we prayed, they cursed.
I wish I could tell you how remarkable it was, it won't get conveyed adequately in words.
At a certain point (I cannot say how long) I became aware that our demonic contingent was no longer to be seen or heard. I guess I just focussed so intensely on the prayer that I wasn't really perceiving them after a while.
I looked back, and saw how pitifully small the "counterprotester" contingent really was.
How very like the demons, to shriek and cackle and raise a hullabaloo, all in the hopes of distracting us from the simple and sure truth that they are apt to vanish like the fog on San Francisco Bay when the Sun of righteousness rises with healing in His wings.
After the march, the waterfront was full of light, joy, families, young people in prayer and song....
O how beautiful San Francisco was that day.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 1:58 PM By RR
Eileen: Add me to the list of people who remember Grisha telling that woman to go to the gay wedding and he said, "Have fun at the wedding". It was a short but sweet post.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 2:46 PM By Roseleaf
In reply to JLS: You can't bear the idea of a self-contradictory Catholic, can you? You write: "Biden is not Catholic, but [?] votes solid pro-abortion." To the contrary, by right of his baptism, Vice-president Joseph Biden IS a Catholic -- a Catholic, however, who got turned around on the abortion issue, having early on in his political career been pro-life.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 2:51 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, you said, "No one wants to cut those poor single straight guys the same break." I have never said anything here that encourages promiscuity. I don't think gay people should be promiscuous and I don't think straight people should be promiscuous either. I don't think encouraging anyone to be promiscuous is "cutting them a break." I think promiscuity only leads to more inner loneliness, emptiness, pain and alienation. It wounds the spirit. This is just my opinion though as I have never actually been promiscuous. What I have spoken of is respecting the dignity of all human beings.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 3:00 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, re 11:43 AM. You stated, "I do not direct any comments to him directly," (Is this bad high school or what?) And then you mentioned my name 4 times. I can read. However, I am somewhat annoyed that you saw fit to say that I was not honest. I fully realize that you see me as your inferior but you are more than free to address any comments to me, my friend. Peace - Mark from PA
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 4:10 PM By Rick
BJ, not voting is like not steering a car that is already traveling down the highway. Even if the car has a million other hands on the wheel, a choice to not help steer is a choice to leave the steering in the hands of the others. You might believe the others are baby killers and that you're outnumbered, but if you choose to leave a baby in the hands of a crowd you believe to be baby killers, do you think you're not directly involved in the outcome?
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 4:29 PM By JLS
Rick, BJ did not say not to vote. He said to vote for a party that stands against abortion. There is one, and it is called by a couple of names, depending on which state. In California it is called the American Independent Party, or Constitution Party in other states. Alan Keyes was the ticket in Calif, and he is utterly pro-life in deed as well as word. He is also Black and Catholic in that he lives a Catholic life both politically as well as in privately. If the bishops had said to vote for a pro-life candidate, then Keyes would have won ... The Republicans and Democrats do not have a strangle hold on your steering wheel ... you do.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 4:34 PM By JLS
Roseleaf, by rite of Baptism both Billy Graham and Barak Obama are Catholic. So was Hitler. And likely Lenin and Stalin were as well. Catholic is not like Jewish, which is a birthright. Catholic is those who do not defy God. Biden does not hold "contrary opinions", rather he promotes the mass torture and murder of babies. That is intrinsic opposition to God, and removes any Catholicness he might have enjoyed in his life.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 5:44 PM By Rick
JLS, BJ said "Better not to vote than..." and I was asking him some questions about that. As to political parties, I've never voted for any political party. Do parties run for office in your country? I do not believe that Alan Keyes would have won the American presidency as you claim "if the bishops had said to vote for a pro-life candidate." Even if the bishops had said that, how many voters listen, understand and do what bishops say? For example, why did your Prop 4 fail? As to Alan Keyes, I read he received just over 41 thousand votes in the 2008 U.S. election. Not very impressive. Something tells me he'd need more than the support of the bishops to win. It's not like it's his first time at bat. Few people seem to take him seriously. Maybe it's his politics, or maybe it's his facial expressions. Hard to say. Even if he were elected president, it would be hard to say what would happen. Much like prediciting what would happen if pigs could fly.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 5:55 PM By Grisha
RR and Eileen: If you are saying that attendance at a "gay Marriage" or commitment ceremony is sinful, I respectfully believe you are in error.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 6:41 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, you say, "please help Mark from PA to not offend God." My orientation may offend you, Eileen but I don't think it offends God.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 8:14 PM By RR
Grisha: I respectfully believe you are the one in error. When you attend a "gay marriage" or commitment ceremony, it IS sinful. You are condoning & approving of sin and the sins of these homosexuals. It is scandalous! No Catholic in good standing can attend this type of ridiculous ceremony or whatever they want to pretend it is. In the eyes of God this marriage or ceremony means nothing and is null and void. God does not approve of ACTIVE homosexuality.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 9:00 PM By Mark from PA
That is funny Grisha. I was sharing some of these posts with my brother and I mentioned where you said CINO. Can you believe that I didn't know what that meant? My brother said it meant, Catholic in name only. I have heard that expression but luckily no one has over directed that towards me. People are more likely to ask me questions about the Church as everyone knows that I am a Catholic as I tend to wear my religion on my sleeve at times.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 10:11 PM By JLS
Grisha, it would depend upon one's intention, right? *** PA, your orientation is a disorder, and how many times do we read of or hear of Jesus healing people of their disorders? God does not will that you suffer a disorder. It is an effect of sin, and as far as I understand will not accompany you into Heaven, if you should perhaps receive that blessing. So, why not begin the process of purging the homosexuality from your being? If Jesus can cure a man of a genetic lameness or any other malady, then certainly He can cure one of same sex attraction. How can you not agree?
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 10:20 PM By Anne T.
My! My! Eileen, RR and JLS, the Church, the Bible, the cathecism and the Lord Jesus Christ teaches that marriage is only between a man and a woman, and Grisha tells us to give our approval to so-called same-sex marriage by going to one. Whom should we obey? "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord." We aren't going to any same-sex marriage, nor a polygamous one, nor a polyandrous one, nor one between two brothers, nor one between Jezebel and a monkey. Get the picture??? Grisha's not God. Nor does he represent God. His answer was like the "you know what" in the Garden of Eden. In other words, the Lord says don't do it, but he and some others tell us to do it, but the way would be spiritual death. Sorry, Grisha, I am not falling for that one no matter how respectful you are.
|
Posted Monday, February 02, 2009 11:18 PM By Eileen
Grisha, "A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth." Pope Benedict XVI
|
Posted Tuesday, February 03, 2009 9:49 AM By Grisha
Let me throw in my monthly plug that their is way to much focus on the sins (real and imagined) of others on this forum.
|
Posted Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:17 AM By Grisha
Anne T: While we disagree on attending same-gender marriage or commitment ceremonies, we do agree that I am not God.
|
Posted Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:48 PM By RR
Grisha: Is that what we as Catholics are supposed to do; Pretend sin doesn't exist, ignore it, and bury our heads in the sand? No, we are to practice the Spriritual works of Mercy and Admonish the sinner and Instruct the Ignorant.
|
Posted Tuesday, February 03, 2009 1:46 PM By Margaret
Everyone is a sinner and everyone is ignorant. Attendance at an invalid wedding is a matter of prudential judgment. God is there even if you don't attend.
|
Posted Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:37 PM By Mark from PA
Grisha, many thanks for attempting to instruct the ignorant. JLS, I have never actually asked for God to cure me of who I am. There are a lot more important things to pray for. I would actually rather be who I am than a promiscuous straight guy. The things some straight men do bring shame to our gender. When I went to confession a few weeks ago the priest told be that God loves me just the way I am.
|
Posted Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:22 AM By Grisha
RR: We are not to ignore sin nor be obesssed about it. "look at the beam in your own eye" etc.
|
Posted Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:04 PM By RR
Grisha: No, there is no beam. There is a Dogwwod tree in my eye. The difference is that I know when I sin and I confess my sins, amend my life, do penance, and try not to do them again. Also, I am not on a Catholic website promoting & condoning mortal sins and trying to lead others into sin like some people on here. There are dissenters posting on here and they do need to be admonished & instructed in their sins. God said so. That's why the Church has the Spiritual Works of Mercy. There are posters on here that are trying to make excuses for their sins and try to get other people to accept their sins. They need to be admonished and instructed for their soul's sake and for the sake of all other souls that are being mislead.
|
Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:28 AM By RR
Grisha: In my prior post I meant to write REDWOOD tree, not dogwood. See, I am human and I do sin and make mistakes. :)
|
Posted Monday, February 16, 2009 8:23 AM By Mark from PA
A redwood tree? RR, you like to call our President Obamanation but I wonder what they would say to you if you went to his daughters' school and told them that their dad was an Obamanation. I wonder how many people would buy your line about admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant. I don't think your attitude would save many souls.
|
Posted Monday, February 16, 2009 11:35 AM By Grisha
In my experience, the most effective way to witness the Catholic faith to others is to mostly speak in terms of "we", perhaps sometines "I", but almost always never "you"
|
Posted Monday, February 16, 2009 7:23 PM By RR
Mark from PA: First of all, I would not say these things in front of The Obamanation's kids or any kids for that matter. They would not understand why I call him that. I call him that on this ADULT blogsite. Secondly, I had the opportunity to see the Obamanation in my town last week here in Illinois, but I wouldn't go across the street to see him because I have no respect for an evil man who has no respect for human life. If I ever ran into him in a public place or around a corner somewhere, I would personally tell him what I think of his beliefs and I would tell him that his beliefs are an abomination. I would tell him that I call him the Obamanation because I see his beliefs as an abomination. I would admonish him and instruct him by telling him that his beliefs and support of abortion is an abomination and deserving of hell if he does not repent. Also, I don't think your promotion, support & condoning of the gay agenda & lifestyle is going to save many souls either.
|
Posted Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:45 AM By Dominic
If the wedding is invalid [which it is] God is NOT there.
And most certainly not to give His blessing to an abomination.
|
Posted Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:46 AM By Peter
RR, I suspect Obama's response to you would be: "And you are who?"
|
Posted Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:38 AM By RR
Peter: And my response would be, "Somebody who cares about all souls(including yours President Obama) and especially the unborn."
|
Posted Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:33 PM By Almond Milk
One response would be "and Mr. Obama who are you to decide the fate of many children. Who are you to impose your agenda on others. You are definitely not God. Therefore you are nobody and neither am I"
|
Posted Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:51 PM By RR
Almond Milk: I like your response much better!
|
© California Catholic Daily 2009. All Rights Reserved.
|