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Published: October 13, 2008
“Gay persons are good and part of God’s creation”
Another priest defies bishops on same-sex marriage initiative
Another priest has broken ranks with California’s bishops on the Protect Marriage initiative, telling his parishioners in the church’s weekly bulletin, “I cannot in conscience unequivocally support Proposition 8.”
The remarks came in a “dear parishioners” letter published Oct. 5. by Claretian Fr. Steve Niskanen, pastor of San Gabriel Mission in the Los Angeles archdiocese.
 The same day that Fr. Niskanen expressed his opinion in San Gabriel, Fr. Geoffrey Farrow told parishioners at the St. Paul Newman Center in Fresno following his Sunday morning homily that he opposed the marriage initiative – and admitted during a television interview before the Mass that he was a homosexual.
In his “dear parishioners” letter at San Gabriel Mission, Fr. Niskanen went through each of the ballot measures endorsed by the Catholic bishops of California one by one. He said he supports Proposition 4 – the family notification before a minor’s abortion initiative, and that he opposes Proposition 6 – the “Safe Neighborhoods Act,” which would add new crimes and tougher penalties to state law. Fr. Niskanen’s positions on Props 4 and 6 are in line with the recommendations of the bishops.
But when it came to Proposition 8, which would amend the state constitution to outlaw same-sex marriages, Fr. Niskanen disagreed. After reprinting a portion of the bishops’ arguments in favor of the proposition, he wrote: “I deeply respect and submit to the authority of our bishops and the force of traditional Catholic teaching limiting sexual relations to the love and life-giving commitment of heterosexual marriage. But I cannot in conscience unequivocally support Proposition 8 because I cannot in my heart of hearts say with certainty, at this time, that God would not call His gay and lesbian children into a faithful and life-long covenant with one another.”
Fr. Niskanen’s letter continued, “Some members of our families and of our parish family are gay and lesbian. Studies estimate that between 5-10% of the human race, across cultures, has a predominantly same-sex orientation. I believe that we as a Church need to learn from their stories of rejection and alienation, of faith, hope, and love, so as to better discern with them God’s will for their and our lives.
“My belief is that gay persons, as gay, are good, and part of God’s diverse creation. Their expression of love, though different from the majority, does, I believe, participate in both the weakness and selfishness of sin and the generosity and kindness of God’s love. They, like all of us, are called to chastity; that is, sexual self-control and loving respect of the other in conformity with one’s calling in life. In the pastoral statement, Always our Children, the US Bishops’ Committee on Marriage and Family concludes with a consoling word to our gay brothers and sisters, ‘Though at times you may feel discouraged, hurt, or angry, do not walk away from your families, from the Christian community, from all those who love you. In you God’s love is revealed. You are always our children.’”
Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:07 AM By Central Valley
Lets see if Cardinal Mahoney will be as slow to act as bishop John Steinbock. A bad name for the Cleritians, another dying religous order. Did half the congregation applaud his sermon as the did Fr. Farrow in Fresno? Yet another case of poor catechisis supported by weak bishops like Mahoney and Steinbock.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:12 AM By QuantaCura
Will Mahoney persecute this priest as he persecutes orthodox priests? Bishop Steinbock promoted Fr. Listiri after "treatment", will Farrow and Niskanen be rewarded after "treatment"? This is yet another example of the weak sheperds of california. Another scandel for the faithful in the pews. When will the Holy Father clear out the unworthy bishops in California?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 1:03 AM By Aaron
Thank you Fr. Niskanen. For 2,000 years the church has been punishing gays and lesbians for being born with physical & emotional attraction to their own gender. Eventually the church will apologize for this unspeakable evil which has included burning homosexuals at the stake during the Spanish Inquisition---every UNCHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR similar to the Nazis, who during WWII gassed thousands of gay people--an attempt to rid society of gays... Civil gay marriage has been approved in Canada, South Africa, Spain, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway in order to insure everyone has equal civil rights. What has happened to traditional marriage in these countries? Absolutely NOTHING. Traditional marriages continue, babies are born, traditional families go on as always. The church, in its wisdom, is welcome to its own beliefs and can refuse to conduct gay weddings, refuse adoption to same sex couples... but GOVERNMENTS are responsible for assuring EVERYONE has equal rights under the law...vote NO on Prop 8.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 1:57 AM By Victoria
These priests may seem to have, "broken faith with bishops", but they do not owe their loyalty to bishops. These Brave Priests owe their loyalty to GOD; and if any explanations are needed, they will be made to HIM, and to HIM only. Catholics have turned their hierarchy into false gods. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". We know the bishops can be wrong because, during these past few years, they have made some terrible mistakes. There is only ONE True Authority in all this. Why not just let Almighty GOD have HIS way?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:44 AM By Otto
I totally disagree with Fr. Niskanens embelishment of the gay life style. He has been living too long in his gay green pasture.
But I must say: he has courage, which many of our Catholic regulars don't have. He speaks out for what he believes (even if itbis wrong), but many of our lukewarm brethren don't. That's why we have such a mess.
Otto
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 6:37 AM By JLS
So this confused cleric draws his religion from his "heart of hearts", instead of from God.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 6:57 AM By Sawyer
That statement was parsed thoroughly before its publication. Fr. Steve is probably a heretic deep in his heart, but he expressed himself shrewdly so as to have both doctrinally defensible statements and ambiguous ones that leave him just enough wiggle room to depart from Catholic doctrine. Wanna bet that homosexuals being "called to chastity... in conformity with [their] calling in life" means to Fr. Steve that he hopes the Church will one day recognize a new calling or vocation: the gay state? Notice that he "respect[s] and submit[s] to the authority of our bishops and the FORCE of the traditional Catholic teaching..." but does not submit to the teaching. He's a clever one, alright, but he's putting his cleverness in the service of undermining Catholic faith rather than upholding it, which makes him all the more dangerous because most people will not be able to see through his charade of fidelity to the Church.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:37 AM By CJJ
Promotion of the "gay" myth is the big trap of man today. This lie destroys everything: mind, body, civilization, faith, soul. It is a masterpiece of the evil one. Priests also, as humans themselves, are also at risk. Love is truth. Untruth, ever envious of the truth, is destruction.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:39 AM By Fr. M.P.
Fr. Niskanen needs to correct his conscience so that it is inline with God, and not unnatural perversions. One good thing about the Prop 8 battle is that it is revealing who is with God and who isn't, like when Moses came down from the mountain and the Israelites were worshiping the golden calf, Moses asked who is with Him and God and who isn't. It's only a matter of a short time before God's Justice reminds people of the truth.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:55 AM By Frederick J. Azbell
I am a seventy-six year old U.S.A. citizen man living in Mexico. I have been in a loving relationship with a now forty year old Mexican man since May of 1996.
I would love to return to the U.S.A. but my lover needs to work and help with expenses as I am on a fixed income retirement.
We could leave here and return to the U.S.A. but Ruben would not be able to receive a green card so that he could work.
Don't tell me that civil unions are equal to marriage in the eyes of the federal government. Marriage laws discriminate.
All governments in the U.S.A should get out of the BUSINESS of marriage and only recognize civil unions.
If a couple wants to have a marriage, they should do that in the church that will accept them as a couple.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:11 AM By Salvatore G.
Mr. Niskanen should be fired for not following a direct order from his supervisors.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:11 AM By racjax
I believe that these public outbursts are very good signs that the insidious darkness in our Church is being driven out. These priests and sisters who do not adhere to Church doctrine and tradition need to hit the road and go live "their" lives rather than fake living lives as God'd servant.
Note that the blatant desire for attention in their "acting out" behaviors are indicators of the histrionic and narcissistic behavior that is present in active homesexuals. Both are DISORDERS of the personality.
So I am glad this is driving these misfits from the pulpits. By their words and deeds you shall know them.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:17 AM By george
Stevie's outreach is so welcoming, his tolerance is so warm, and his thinking is so fuzzy that he comes off as, kinda like, a teddy bear with a prerecorded message.
Hopefully, as Stevie matures, he will gain the insight that homosexuals are good but not insofar as they are gay.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:17 AM By Thomas
A priest with common sense, REFRESHING!!!
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:28 AM By JimAroo
The ball is in your court, Cardinal Mahony.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:57 AM By Lauda Sion
"I cannot in my heart of hearts say with certainty, at this time, that God would not call His gay and lesbian children into a faithful and life-long covenant with one another.” Can you, in your heart of hearts, go out and buy a Bible, and then read it?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:04 AM By Kathleen
Homosexual sexual behavior hurts and kills many ,many millions every year. See the UN report for 2007.The greatest number of deaths from HIV come from men with men in sexual activity. MIllions upon millions. Yes ,we must and do love persons afflicted with same - sex attraction just as with other disorders,diabetic, celiac and so many more but we certainly do not love the disorder . Toleration or any approval of such behavior is not charity. Experience proves that much such behavior is spread by contagion. and much by predators as much as by any thing innate. False tolerance destroys and kills. According to the unbiased John Jay report as well as the statistics on the sexual scandals in the Church-surely aided by Satan and his minions , 80% was attributed to sexual relationships with post -pubescent male teens. Parents are justifiably fearful. Any priest that does not accept the authority of the Church while claiming to represent Her founder ,Jesus Christ ,who said of her " He who hears you hears me" should not be receiving the trust, respect--- and their livlihood from often struggling Catholic families. Misplaced tolerance discredits Bishops and priests and is undermining the credibility of the Church. My God have mercy on us all. In the end it's heaven or hell. This priest is representative of so many who have not been so out spoken but who populate our churches and are influencing many with the approval of the hierarchy in California,influencing the thinking of unwary,media influenced. parishoners. Their only error and perhaps to our advantage is their hubris is publicsing what is privately acceptable among many sheeps in wolves clothing among the hierarchy and approved of by the silence of the more orthodox. Remember, in the law ,silence is approval.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:14 AM By john Zakharia
The number one tool the Devil uses is CONFUSION. The Catholic church does not deny gays the right to marry. They can marry the opposite sex. By they should not marry someone from the same sex. Aids is one consquence of same-sex marriage, and that is a fact
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:16 AM By Shawne
Awesome! God's work is being done once again. Baby steps to a greater good for all! Bless this and all priests who stand up for acceptance, not tolerance.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:23 AM By jack
Where to begin? The misrepresentations and lies have been repeated for so long and and with such intensity and pervasiveness that many are misled. I would suggest Fr. Harvey's book on homosexuality as a primer. Every diocese must have a Courage chapter with the Bishop's full support. Every priest should have long heart to heart talks with Courage members. The answer to bearing this cross and all crosses is Our Lord Jesus Christ. One last factual remark--the 10% figure used by Fr. comes from the infamous Dr. Kinsey and is used by those who favor homosexuality. It seems to hover about 2.5% for men and half that for women.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:26 AM By Mike W.
Fr. Niskanen has taken a position which is contrary to natural law, the bible, and the teaching of the Catholic church. Fr. Niskanen should publicly retract his letter of opposition to proposition 8. Fr. Niskanen should also review Article 7 - The Sacrament of Matrimony in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Sacrament of Matrimony is a covenant only between a man and a woman. This covenant between a man and a woman, who are baptized, has been raised by Jesus Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:33 AM By Verkola
If we leave aside for the moment the problematic adjective "gay"; if we skip over the recent "identitarian" use of "gay" as an adjective predicating the word "person," then straightaway we will recognize an important Catholic teaching, namely: "Persons are good and a part of God's creation." Let's take due care not overlook this primary truth in discussing the topic before us.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 10:01 AM By The other Mike
People were created by God, and perversion was created by Satan. Nothing good will come by letting Satan in the door of holy matrimony or secular marriage.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 10:18 AM By betty
Then how come some of the people who have lived as children with two lesbians or two gays tell us that it was a bitter rxperience which they wouldn't want to wish on their worst enemies and please don't tell me that it was because people weren't ready to accept gay marriage at that particular time? I would really like to hear more from those who lived as children with two gay parents or two lesbian parents, so called.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 10:54 AM By Dan
"But I cannot in conscience unequivocally support Proposition 8 because I cannot in my heart of hearts say with certainty, at this time, that God would not call His gay and lesbian children into a faithful and life-long covenant with one another.”
Father's belief is that since two homosexuals can live together for life, that therefore marriage should be redefined to include them. Implicit in their living together for life is the idea that God has called them to live together for life, and that His blessing is upon them. They are living in a de facto married state, with God's approval. Father Niskanen, it is quite a jump from a gay couple's living together to God's benediction of that union as a marriage. But fear not, you are not alone in the priesthood with this conviction. Though I disagree with you, I am glad for your honesty, and wish that all priests who believe as you do would be more forthright and say so. I like to know where people stand in the culture wars, especially people of influence such as yourself.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 11:34 AM By Greta
In the Bible, Jonathan and David also had a "faithful and life-long covenant" with one another, more precious than love for women. As king, David supported their faithful and lifelong covenant with civil law. I don't know what he called it, but whatever he called it is but a name. The name "marriage" is no more sacred than a cow.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 11:38 AM By Jay1
To people who agree with Fr. Niskanen, what is the basis for believing God created homosexuality in Man?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 11:46 AM By Fr. J
Gay is not good. It is intrinsically disordered. Someone afflicted with same sex desires can become holy. But not by affirming sin.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:00 PM By Matt
Let me start out by saying YES! on Prop #8. There is much more at stake than just the acknowledgement of a homo sexual union. It will force our schools to teach our children and grandchildren that a homo sexual relationship is "normal". That is God made man and woman for procreation. Not Adam and Steve, but Adam and Eve.
With that said, I think Fr.Niskanen statement of being chase is a worthy comment. For whatever reason a person finds themselves to be a homo sexual person, living a chase life is acceptable to the Church.
We must all love one another and hate the sins we each commit.
God Bless
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:08 PM By Ronnie
The confusion and talking points that Aaron displays is typical of a person either exhibiting confused gender identity or having a friend as such. First, there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is innate. Quite the contrary. Environmental factors and/or abuse as a child seem to be the main factors. As for past unspeakable evilsl against gays (like religious,, gypsies, etc., also?) no one is suggesting burning anyone at the stake! We understand that it is a disordered inclination that can with help be overcome or at least turned towards a trial which can be used for good. And int all those countries mentioned which have legalized some sort of gay arrangement, traditional marriage rates are plummeting.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:13 PM By Life Lady
I take exception to the note about punishment, as if the Church is dedicated to that purpose, to punish the sinful. Punishment is not given to us, God punishes. If there are people with same-sex attraction struggling with that kind of burden on their souls, and they stubbornly hold to that attraction, it is a sin. Obstinance is a sin. Not being open to the Creator, and His purpose for us, when we are stubborn and obstinant, He punishes. If their conscience is giving them grief, and if we who are not of the same-sex orientation value our committment to live as God has created us, we are not punishing anyone. God may love all His creatures, and have infinite compassion, but it is our duty to heed His call, and stop living in sin, no matter which side of the attraction issue we are living on. Unmarried persons do not have the right to sin, to go against God's having created them man and woman, male and female. Same sex attraction is a disorder, do not forget that. It was a disorder early in their young lives, and has gone untreated, ignored, and largly thru fear and embarassment, same-sex attraction has become a scourge on our society. It is up to us all to take personal responsibility for our children, and raise them in a loving home, free from confusion. God will bless us all when we do that, and punish those who refuse to take personal responsibility for their children.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:23 PM By B. Knot Aphrayed
Dear Mr. Azbell,
Your "beef" is not with the Roman Catholic Church. That would be with the civil government, and specifically the Department of Immigration. But your contention that Ruben could not emigrate here is patently fallacious; I know of many Mexican nationals who are gay, received "green cards" legally and are gainfully employed. Some of those are also in what is commonly called a "committed" relationship.
Please be intellectually honest with your contentions.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 12:30 PM By Miguel
How disgusting! These priest have no common sense and discretion. Understand this: It's not about YOU! It's about God. It will never be accepted. Only God has the power and logic to sort out the gay dilemma. Our job is to follow orthodoxy not to create it. Satan has infected you with pride. We all live with sins, conditions, vices and addictions. What makes you so special. Please disappear, we are sick of your pathetic vanity.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 1:04 PM By Dai Yoshida
I love San Gabriel Mission. The last time I was there the late night Spanish Mass was conducted by a very orthodox priest who insisted on using the bells. What Fr. Niskanen has done saddens me to no end. Let's hope he leaves the priesthood quickly and make room for a more deserving pastor. We need to pray for our priests.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 1:04 PM By Elizabeth
Yes, God loves us all............
But, DOES NOT love what we do all the time.
And Homosexuality is one of those times that God does not love.
I think Father should be placed in a ministry perhaps in remote area for thought, reflection and counseling!
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 1:19 PM By Verkola
In reply to the (other) Mike: You write that persons are created by God, which is true, but you also write that "perversion was created by Satan." This latter claim is false. (1) Satan has no creative powers and besides, evil is a lack of due good, and qua lack cannot be created. (2) Homosexual acts--also ipsationist acts--are disordered acts, that is, not properly ordained to the opposite sex and consequently not ordained to the "statistical ordination" of conjugal relations to procreation. This disorder/disordination is an evil because, like all evils, it is a lack of due good. But again, evil is not an *ens creatum*; it is not something that is created or can be created. Satan, then, is not the creator of perversions. At the same time, the weakening of mankind as the result of the Fall plays a consequential part in the etiology of voluntary perversions, inasmuch as these perversions constitute unreasonable conduct.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 1:23 PM By St. Christopher
Well, another of the likely many "gay" or "gay sympathizing" priests in the CA church. First, Niskanen must be dismissed from the priesthood due to his overt and continuous scandal. Second, the Cardinal must explicity state that what the priest said is wrong and that homosexual sex is -- in every instance -- a mortal sin. Third, he invite all those that have other views to simply leave the Church. Giving any quarter to these views pollutes the faith, which is in danger of being diluted from many such disbelievers (which must be their plan). Leave, leave, leave. Christ died for "many" not for "all". See the Gospel of St. Mathew and the centuries of true Catholic teaching and ritual, the same faith that produced the great saints and religous orders that are now in such danger of complete elimination (to the likely joy of the protestors). Leave, leave, leave.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 2:27 PM By Deutero-Diogenes
They are coming "out of the woodwork" or rather "out of the closet."
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 2:52 PM By Grisha
St. Christopher ~ Gee you're giving a lot of orders. Hup-Two-Three-Four! Did I miss the news report your election to the Papacy?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 3:00 PM By Mea Culpa
Interesting that this and "Fr." Farrow's hissy fit both happened on the same day - almost like they were planned. The Church's support of Proposition 8 is like turning on a light in the kitchen - all the roaches start running away.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 3:09 PM By Tobias2012
Of course the Church recognizes the dignity of all people including gays and lesbians however, to the acts of homosexuality are clearly a disorder as taught by the Word of God. And to undermine the sanctity of marriage is also an act of rebellion that does not help people but confuses them to the point that they are living a life of sin. The sexual revolution and those who have been lead astray by its' sexual lies should not be promoted by priests and religious. The sin of ego and pride are made evident by those who trust in the world, this priest took vows of obedience and should be removed for failing to keep his vows.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 3:11 PM By June Butler
I offer my prayers and support to Fr. Steve Niskanen. He shows great courage in taking this brave stand to follow his conscience. Speaking out will cost him dearly, but he did the right thing. May God bless him and keep him.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 3:34 PM By El Rose
The wheat and the chaff.
The line is drawn.
This is a good thing. No more hiding. Priests who have been hiding behind their collar but embrace the gay agenda will be exposed. Have heart. Goodness will triumph.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 3:48 PM By Victoria
CJJ, who are you to say if this man has GOD in his heart or not? Do you think that after all the years of study, sacrifice and dedication these men have invested that GOD would not be their first and most important priority? I am certain it was with GOD's help that they decided to make these giant steps forward in honesty and truth. Too many, "Secrets & Lies" in this church and among it's hierarchy. Anyway the hierarchy have lost their right to speak on matters of morality.....And Still Expect To Be Believed, That Is.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 4:20 PM By Ronnie
June: How can God bless error?....I'm reminded here that Satan is very good at quoting Scripture ...A time will come when people will call good evil and evil good...Pray for this Priest. His sould is in jeopardy.....
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 4:33 PM By Kay Riggle
I am grateful for the courageous stand that Fr. Steve Niskanen has taken. It is balm to the many LGBT's wounded by the church. You are in our prayers.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 4:53 PM By Mark from PA
God bless Father Steve. Some people don't like to hear the truth. Aaron, thank you for giving those who do not know a little bit of history, hopefully they have read and understood. St. Christopher, who are you to tell people that you dislike to leave the Church? Why should all gay people leave the Church just to satisfy homophobes? We have as much right to be here as you do. The hatred and prejudice in some of these posts is quite disheartening.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:00 PM By Jeff Miller
"Fr. Geoffrey Farrow told parishioners at the St. Paul Newman Center in Fresno"
St. Paul Newman Center? Wow did he get canonized fast.
(Editor's Note: We tried to clear this up in an earlier editor's note on this thread: It is the Newman Center in Fresno named after St. Paul, thus "St. Paul Newman Center.")
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:18 PM By Papamac
Father has been watching to much Joel Osteen on T.V. gay is a-ok, how about adultery, why not, they are still Gods children, just like the sodomites. Abortion, why not, it is a womans right to defy God, the US Supreme court said its a-ok, so who is God to challenge such a high body on judgement day. Will C.Mahoney act? The suspense is killing us..MAY GOD BLESS AND PROTECT US FROM PRIESTS WHO DEFY HIS GOSPELS.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:31 PM By Fran
God bless this priest for speaking out. Ultimately, while we are subordinate, we must at times speak the truth as we know it in our hearts.
Jesus mentions poverty and taking care of the poor, taking care of each other quite frequently. I do not read any words of Jesus about sex.
And I never hear Jesus condemn anyone, all are welcome at His table.
Pax et bonum
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:45 PM By Ruth
I am heartened to read of priests like that who heed their conscience and the prompting of the Holy Spirit and actually question hurtful church dogma. Our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve the chance to live in a loving, committed relationship.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:46 PM By JLS
Greta, only a depraved soul would believe that David and Jonathon were homosexuals. Your anti-logic would also say that the Persons of the Holy Trinity are "gay" ... you might want to check out the "unforgiveable sin".
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:49 PM By cany
Thank you, Father, for speaking your conscience and for supporting the lessors among us that struggle in life and sin, like we that are not intrinsically gay but nonetheless struggle likewise.
I will never understand why, among so many others, the human condition and judgment always seems to rest upon those who are in the minority among us as opposed to those in the majority.
Is it because we are able to point in better numbers outward?
God Bless You and Keep You.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:50 PM By JLS
Victoria, you are passing along a false idea which claims that we cannot tell if God is in someone's heart: Jesus teaches the parable about not hiding one's talent under a bushel basket. Thus, God would not hide Himself in people's hearts, for it is His will to proclaim His glory through the Church. Those in a state of grace who receive Holy Communion have God in their hearts. Liars such as practicing homosexual clerics do not, for they are not in a state of grace, but have blasphemed God by their hypocricy.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 5:57 PM By JLS
Verkola, I also note that it is an error to attribute creativity to the devil. But I would like to point out that the etiology of creativity began anew with Jesus Christ, and that the weakness from the Fall has been turned around.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 6:03 PM By shreveport
Victoria, do you not remember what our Lord said in Matthew: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (7:21). They can still turn against the "study, sacrifice and dedication these men have invested (in) GOD," just as you and I can. They have put their hand to plow and must not look back. This is not to judge his soul, but this is what the Lord Himself said. If his heart is different, then he is a living contradiction, untrue to self and God. No one can claim to walk toward truth when their path is not toward God's Truth. Words may be ambiguous and open to all kinds of interpretation, but believe the behavior, as psychologists say. He needs to leave the priesthood before he leads others away from the Truth, especially the little ones through scandal, which will only gain him the proverbial millstone and the depths of the sea.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 6:14 PM By shreveport
Ruth, a malformed conscience is no worthy roadmap. A conscience that is not formed according to the Word of God and the orthodox teaching of the church is only selfish license. There will be no "prompting of the Holy Spirit" that contradicts the Word of God and the teaching of the Church; that is a metaphysical impossibility. You are not free to do what is wrong, even if a misguided conscience says it is right. The conscience is not infallible. Someone who follows an improperly formed conscience has only been tricked into believing The Lie taught by Satan.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 6:58 PM By Dan
"Anyway the hierarchy have lost their right to speak on matters of morality.....And Still Expect To Be Believed, That Is. " I agree with you in part, Victoria. It seems many in the hierarchy have spent their moral capital in the way they have handled matters involving sex. Nevertheless the hierarchy must speak on matters of morality as that is their duty. The risk is that no one may believe them any longer, and part of that may be their fault for their hypocrisy, their lack of good example. And reading the posts, I see many agree with Father that the Church is just plain wrong on the issue of homosexuality. They argue that Father is following the Holy Spirit and that church dogma is "hateful," and by inference we who defend church dogma are hateful. The forces which would deconstruct and reconstruct church dogma to be a balm to the LGBT community are so strong it is something of a miracle the hierarchy stands firm on a traditional understanding of marriage. We should be grateful they still do speak on matters of morality, even if no one listens. That is their job.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:10 PM By Dan
"These priests may seem to have, "broken faith with bishops", but they do not owe their loyalty to bishops. " Victoria, a dioscean priest makes a promise of obedience to the local bishop, whoever he may be. The Claretian priest in question has an implicit promise of obedience. True, his most direct vow of obedience is to his superior in the order. Should that superior ask him to recant his statement, and Father not be able to comply, he would have to rethink his commitment to the Claretians. From what I know of the order, this is not likely to happen. I would guess the superior will thank Father for his candor and request him to say no more, at least for now. I think Father can live with that. Your notion that priests owe their explanations to God and not to a legitimate superior is a very protestant notion. But the idea that the hierarchy is wrong on something as basic as human sexuality is also a very protestant notion.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:24 PM By ann
Homosexuals as persons are indeed valuable and loved by God. However, the homosexual attraction is a disorder. God created the homosexual person, but he did not create the disorder. He allows it, as He allows all the results of original sin in His creation. But disorders are not to be embraced and called good. It is an insult to God and the human person to call disorders good. Good can come of them as when we heal them or overcome them and defeat them in every way humanly possible.
Homosexual attractions are temptations to be overcome by prayer, chastity and psychological treatments if possible. Friendships between same sex people are to be cultivated, but chastity is their calling.
In days gone by, it was assumed that people with homosexual leanings could control them and if they indulged them punishment was the norm. Punishment is not the way we should approach the issue, but what we should note is that the ability to control was just accepted.
Most of us have temptations to overcome. We need to help each other to do so.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:28 PM By Greta
JLS, I didn't say David and Jonathan were homosexual. Likewise, neither does California civil law say that David and Jonathan are homosexual if they have a civil marriage. California supports a "faithful and life-long covenant" between two persons without regard to sex, sex act or sexual orientation.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:44 PM By Michel
Shawne, there is an old saying "First we tolerate, they we accept, then we embrace." We do not want to accept and embrace a deviant lifestyle that is absolutely contrary to the word of God as given to us in the Holy Bible and through the teaching Magisterium of His Church.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:47 PM By Dave N.
General disarray in the Church. Why is this news?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 7:49 PM By Laurette Elsberry
Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do not err; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites...will possess the kingdom of God".
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:00 PM By Mark from PA
Ann, the homosexual attraction is NOT a disorder. It is an orientation. It is not a disease that one needs to be healed of. Some of you are trying to make gay people into modern day lepers. You should be glad that so many gay men are priests as you see chastity as their calling. You see gay men as called to celibacy and chastity.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:14 PM By Bob
To be a homosexual is not to be in a state of sin. To be heterosexual is not to be in a state of sin. Homosexual sex, and heterosexual sex outside of marriage is the sin.
When the Bishops go after the heterosexuals who commit adultry or have sex outside of marriage with the zeal in which they go after homosexual sin, then I will listen.
Even a Catholic marriage is a civil union. The priest must have a licence to marry a couple. The marriage is a civil union that is blessed by the Church, performed by an agent of the state.
If Homosexuals want to have a civil union ceremoney, so that they have all the rights of a civil ceremony performed between heterosexuals, fine. If they can find a church that will marry them, so much the better for them.
For some reason, it seems that the most vocal catholics get the most vocal over sexual issues.
Not getting enough?
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:37 PM By Verkola
In reply to JLS: Grace has been augmented superabundantly ever since the Incarnation, yes, but
the effects of the Fall--for example, the lack of integration of the sexual drive by reason (contrast this situation with human sexuality in its preternatural state)--remains. It is a delicate question, JLS. I would not use the formula "turned around" with respect to the effects of the Fall becuase the phrase seems to me to have two meanings: (1) that Christ has triumphed over those effects (including death) even now, which is true; and (2) the agonon consequent upon the Fall is *not* something everyone must contend with, which is false. (I am, I should add, not suggesting that you buy into (2)).
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:48 PM By Anne T.
Greta, King David's love for Jonathan was a fraternal love and had nothing to do with a sexual relationship. David had many wives who satisfied that need. Jonathan had saved David's life when Jonathan's father, King Saul, tried to kill David. Jonathan knew David was innocent of trying to kill King Saul and that Saul had lost his senses. When the Bible says that Jonathan's love for David surpassed that of women, it only meant that Jonathan was willing to risk his father's ire and his own life to save David. There were no sexual connotations in that statement. As the Lord Jesus Christ said, "Greater love has no man than this than that a man lay down his life for a friend." That kind of love does surpasses the love of women if it is between two men. It is called male bonding during time of war.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 8:55 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
When they were alive, I was very close to two very Saintly Claretians, Fr. Aloysius Ellacuria and Fr. Tomas Matin, and others as well. They would all roll over in their graves about what is happening in their Order and so would their Founder, St. Anthony Mary Claret.
But even then the rot had begun to show. I once took two young teenage boys, not Catholics, to the Claretian Center where Fr. Aloysius has his Guild Masses. Both of these boys were hit on by a priest, I think he was a Claretian. Before that happened they were very impressed with Fr. Aloysius and were considering entering the Church. After that, they never came back or even asked me to take them back.
God have mercy on these sick priests, they will have to answer for much.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:30 PM By Sawyer
Homosexuality IS a disorder. Get that fact right, and the truth naturally follows that homosexual unions are disordered unions and homosexual acts are deviant sexual acts. A right-thinking society would not sanction deviancy. The large number of people who cannot understand the objective truth about sexual complementarity between male and female is a sign of the degradation of common sense and truth in society. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as the absurdity coming out of California plainly reveals.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:33 PM By Lot
Two men cohabitating is not and could never be a marriage. Marriage is rooted in human nature itself and the complementarity of the two genders; one man and one woman procreating and raising a family. Two men creates nothing, is unnatural and spreads aids. Rev. Father love the sinner but HATE THE SIN. Yes reach out to everyone with uncondional love but CALL EVERYONE TO CONVERSION. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF GOD'S GRACE TO RESURRECT HARDENED SINNERS. Woe to those to who give public encouragement to continue on in sins against nature. If people consumed by this terrible vice (sodomy) die unrepentant they will be damned forever. Think about eternity in hell fire, the screams of despair and the hatred of the devil for human beings now fallen completely under his power. When St Faustina was shown hell she said it seemed to her that most of the people there were people who did not believe that it existed. She started to pass out when she saw that the demons could actually torment and torture certain souls. At Fatima the 3 children were shown a vision of hell-an immense sea of fire in which people were plunged in flames, schrieks and cries of anger and despair and demons that resembled horrible unknown animals. HELL IS FOREVER. No sin is worth going there for. REPENT. Go to confession and go right to communion afterward without leaving the church. Say the rosary everyday it will work a moral miracle in your life. Wear the brown scapular and miraculous medal (great graces are promised by Mary to those who wear it around the neck). DO NOT LOSE YOUR SOUL FOR ALL ETERNITY. If you died suddenly in a massive California eathquake would you be ready to face judgement. If you turn to Jesus now His infinite mercy in the sacrament of confession will wash away your sins.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 9:50 PM By Greta
Anne T, California civil marriage has no requirement that anyone ever be involved in, interested in or open to a sexual relationship. The two parties don't even have to be sexually attracted to one another. They could be Jonathan and David or two nuns.sworn to celibacy for all California cares.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 10:50 PM By JLS
Verkola, I was implying (1) and not (2), for everyone must contend with the effects of the Fall. *** On the topic is "preternatural state", I have made very little study of it, and am only now plodding through a well done book on origins. I have, however, done an observational study of the absense of and effects of sin on dogs and puppies. One animal species would serve as well as another, I'd guess. Those who have not done this would not know from reading what the nature of it is, or how it applies to learning more of human nature. With humans it might be more difficult by far to see the effects of sin than with animals, due to the difference in complexity of nature. What other ways might be useful for getting insight into the "preternatural state" of the human being? Seems like an interesting theological anthropological adventure. I once saw a movie ... Italian made with voice over ... of Jesus growing up. This movie made some attempt to show such a preternatural state ... but I don't know of any great work of art that has succeeded at this. Reveal human purity, and people gang up and try to destroy it.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 10:52 PM By JLS
Bob, homosexuality is not the same order as heterosexual sin. Heterosexual adultry is a sin. Homosexual acts are not only sin, but the consequence of sin.
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Posted Monday, October 13, 2008 11:58 PM By ann
Mark from PA. The Church teaches that the orientation is a disorder. And sober reflection can verify that. It is in keeping with human nature to have the male and female complement each other in many ways. The most obvious one is that their sexual organs are made to celebrate their differences and to in some instances to produce children. Homosexual acts are not so ordered. They are by definition incapable of producing children and as same sex partners not capable of celebrating the gender differences as are heterosexuals.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:37 AM By Aaron
TO:::Jay 1...Thank you so much for the assertion that civil law gives me the same rights as you:: I can marry a woman...that would be to create hell on earth for both of us, since I have NO attraction to women...even though I clearly understand I have that right, it is the ultimate act of dishonesty...I know, because I have been there and done that, but it was not satisfying to either of us. Some say (in their wisdom) that homosexuality comes from being abused as a child...absent father... over protective mother,,,etc, ad naseum;;sorry to disappoint you, but I had NO abuse as a child, had a strong family with Mother, Father and 3 brothers::: but guess what?? My brothers are straight, but I'm not..I have been attracted to my own gender for AS LONG AS I can remember...hence my conclusion GOD made me this way. My experience is little different from millions just like me...we are not disordered, we are just attracted to our own gender, and we believe GOD wants us to live full and complete lives with a same sex partner FOR LIFE... Tomas & I have been together for 8 years in a 100% monogamous, committed relationship til death do us part. So tell me, what is wrong with that ... other than the fact that it drives you insane??? By the way, AIDS and other diseases are spread by promiscuity which happens universally whether gay or straight. We have no worry about it because we are not promiscuous;;neither are we disordered. We are just normal people living our lives day to day, not at all unlike a heterosexual couple.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:20 AM By Sister Act
In reply to St. Christopher: I reject Fr. Niskanen's propagandizing stunt, but I do not think your response is appropriate to it. You write at high pitch: "Leave, leave, leave. Christ died for 'many' not for 'all." I am sorry but it is indeed very much the teaching of the Catholic Church that Christ died for all men, and that includes Fr. Niskanen. We Catholics have fought hard to return the correct translation of *pro multis* to the (admittedly deficient) New Order of the Mass because we deemed it a grave error of America's Catholic bishops to have accepted a translation of *pro multis* as *for all*. But Christopher, it is also a grave error not to realize that *pro multis* (for the many) refers to the *fruits* of Christ's passion and death on the Cross, not to Christ's universal intention that all be saved. These fruits are many, but we cannot say straightaway that all men are saved. The liturgy here refers, you see, to the *results* of Christ's redemptive sacrifice, and on this point (again) we cannot say that all men are saved. At the same time, however, it is heterodox to deny that Christ died--as He did--for all men.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 12:45 PM By Sawyer
Aaron, your same-sex attraction is indeed disordered. God did not make you that way because God would never "gift" someone with a disorder. Instead, God permits evils and errors in nature, otherwise nature would not have an autonomous state of being from the divine being. I hope to God that one day we discover a cure for same-sex attraction disorder so we can be rid of people who don't understand what every fifth grader knows about how males and females naturally complement each other sexually. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:01 PM By Kristen
Why do so many of you assume Fr. Niskanen is gay? That his is doing this for publicity? I especially find offensive that he did this in cohorts with the priest from Fresno. You haters out there should examine your own hearts and conscience. People that blindly follow authority have done a lot more damage than kind, thoughtful, Godly people who seek his will, even if it goes against the grain.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:18 PM By Jay1
Aaron, you say "TO:::Jay 1...Thank you so much for the assertion that civil law gives me the same rights as you:......
I am not sure why you address this to me.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 2:45 PM By JLS
Christ died for men who go to paradise and men who go to damnation ... to wit, the two men crucified next to Him, one in each category. It is not God Who damns men, but men who choose Hell by defying God.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 2:46 PM By JLS
Aaron, what makes you believe that you need to live a sex life? If you do not want a woman, then live celibate and stop indulging yourself in sex.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 3:08 PM By Aaron
JLS: It isn't just sex that attracts Tomas and me. It is a caring, loving giving, communicating relationship. Of the 168 hours in a week, maybe two hours are making love; the remainder of the week is spent doing the routines of life. Making love is a binder that provides a release of tensions, just as it does with traditional married couples. Our lives are not at all different from them...So I might ask you if you would be able to be married and yet never make physical love with your spouse? Unlikely the marriage would survive...so it is with us.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 3:55 PM By Mark from PA
Sawyer, your reply to Aaron is truly frighting. Who are you to call someone evil and an error? Aaron doesn't need a cure. You need a cure for the hatred in your heart. Aaron, God bless you for sharing your story with us. Ann, many gay young people have come to believe what you are saying. And they have taken their lives because they felt they were hated by God and by man. They need to hear from people like Aaron that they are loved by God for who they are and don't need to be cured.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 4:05 PM By Dennis M.
My partner and I have been a couple for a long time. We're good people. I believe God made us exactly as we are, including being gay. (My priest has told me he agrees.) We are active in our church and community, get along with our (and each others') families, abide by the law and pay our taxes. We understand the Church will not marry us and that is fine. But we want to get married legally. Please, please, please, I am begging you, vote No on Proposition 8. This is not about religion, it is about a license that any two atheists can get. We just want to get married. Please don't vote away our marriage.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 4:10 PM By Harry
It's interesting that so me people here seem utterly certain with themselves that homosexuality is not part of God's plan. How can we know? I don't think a thing like that can be known. I wish more people here showed compassion and humility instead of judgment and haughtiness.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 4:17 PM By jake
"A faithful and life long covenant" - isn't that what the priest commits to the Church? Isn't that what God calls all of us to live as His children? Yet the homosexual apologists want to read sex into everything.
Two people of the same sex can love each other without wanting to stimulate themselves sexually.
But not according to the gay agenda.
Sad - for all the souls lost. Because they are looking for love in all the wrong places.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 4:47 PM By Anne T.
Greta, all this radical feminism, etc. has forced women who want to stay home with their children into the workforce. It has put an incredible strain on the two parent, heterosexual family, which I think has led to many divorces. Some men have to work three jobs just to support their families. To say the opposite is a lie. One of the favorite song for this generation, ironicly, is "I Did It My Way", instead of "I Did It God's Way".
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:16 PM By Anne T.
Of course, Greta, I know you don't give a darn about what I put in my last post. My question to you is: why would anyone get "married" if it were not for sexual relations or to have a family. The reason some people coming on this blog want so-called same-sex "marriage" is just to make homosexual acts respectable and acceptable, and they never will be to any decent religion.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:51 PM By Maria C
Sawyer I applaud you! You spoke truth!
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:53 PM By JLS
Kristen, sounds to me as though you yourself are blindly following the tyrannical and unthinking authority of idols.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 6:03 PM By JLS
Aaron, from your description, I'd say the virtues you describe are rather minimal. You'd do better with God. I do better even with my three dogs, although of course there is no sex involved: We care, give love (man, you should have experienced the love she put forth with all her puppies), communicate in amazing and marvelous ways unknown to most people who view dogs as unarticulating entities, and the relationship we have is first class. Not that my married friends with kids are jealous, though, and they do pity me, I suspect. And the tension release: Man, when my little hunting wonder does his find and fetch just right, you wouldn't believe how much it relieves tension; moreover, there is an even greater feeling, one of success, of bonding with nature (nature, not unnature), and the occasional delicious little roast quails and so forth. There are some who would see eating animals as cannibalism, but not me ... it seems kind of normal ... if you can get over not having it packaged in cellophane when you get it from nature's store. OK, Aaron, so how'm I doing so far as being loving to gay people?
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:06 PM By JLS
Same sex "marriage", among other things, is an attempt to gain entry into family circles, such as parish organizations. Now that many of us can see that the laws are following this gay movement to destroy civilization, we can see that no matter what gain in legal status the gay agenda achieves, it continues to demand more ... the nature of which is repression of traditional society's various social mechanisms used for survival.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:09 PM By JLS
Harry, we know for certain, because the Church teaches us this; and it is taught because God has both revealed it in His Law, and we find it in natural law. The Church, Harry, is not confused, nor is it wondering about this stuff. It is known through faith. If you turn down the faith you have available to you, then you will never know.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:13 PM By Kristen
To JLS--what exactly are you referring to? Why would you assume I am blindly following anything? It is my opinion, and that of most people who study human behavior, that some people are born gay. This is not tyrannical thought, nor is it the authority of idols. (?) If God made such people, and I believe he did, to deny them basic civil rights is terribly unjust. That is what Fr. Steve is saying.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 8:43 PM By JLS
Kristen, Fr. Steve is demented due to his support of homosexualism, and you've turned him into your idol. All the other confused nonsense you're uttering flows from that grievous error. If you desire to learn Catholicism, then go to honest and true sources, not to shams such as this absurd priest.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:36 AM By Aaron
JLS: The demented one is you - doing your best to keep people from loving one another and enjoying a physical relationship for a couple of hours per week. BTW, NOBODY disagrees that male/female reproductive organs fit together-part of God's plan for procreation/maintenance of the species. BUT, if you think for ONE MOMENT that when men & women make love they ONLY perform coitus, you are 100% wrong. There are countless ways people make love together in which the male and female organs never even touch. More often than not, gay love making is the same as male/female love making. Of course, since you are not married, I would not expect you to understand what I am saying...So please go throw the ball to your dogs and stop trying to invade people's bedrooms of which you obviously know little... Speak only about what you have first hand knowledge of HUMAN relationships - which is apparently very little. Your mindless assertion that gay acceptance is an attempt to destroy civilization sounds like the thought of an eighth grade middle schooler.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:26 AM By Jay1
Harry, we know heterosexuality is part of God's plan because He has revealed it. Why no such revealing for activ e homosexuality? Also, in both the Old and New Testaments all homosexual activity is sinful. If it is descriebed as sinful it is not from God.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:31 AM By Dai Yoshida
Yes Kristen. I have also studied human behavior and it is my opinion that some people are born with sexual attraction to goats. If God made such people, and I believe he did, to deny people the basic civil right to have legally recognized their sexual union with goats is terribly unjust. (wink wink)
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:58 AM By Fr. M.P.
Kristen, God doesn't make sin. People CHOOSE sin. Active homosexuals choose to reject God and choose mortal sin, which if unrepented (like any other mortal sin, e.g. fornication) will lead a soul to hell. Likewise, God never sends any soul to hell. Rather the soul chooses to go there of his own free will. Psalm 68 (67): "God will arise for battle; the enemy will be scattered; those who hate God will flee."
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 8:31 AM By Maria C
Way to go JLS!! Tell it how it is!
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 8:58 AM By Harry
Anne T., funny how you profess to know all about the motives, feelings, and viewpoints of gay people when you yourself are not gay. I wonder if a gay person's version of your (or any other straight person's) motives, feelings, and viewpoints would likewise be even more accurate than your own?
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:02 AM By Harry
JLS - in my opinion you just described why you THINK you know for certain, not how you DO know for certain (that homosexuality is not part of God's plan). There's a world of difference, though probably not to a person like you.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:59 AM By Kristen
I've not turned him into my idol, quite the contrary, I'm not sure what I've said that would make you think that. I know him as a friend, and he's a good, decent person. He's one of the kindest people I know. You don't know him at all, You should be careful not to judge someone's character until you have more information. I know he's far from demented. In fact to call him that makes you seem a little off your rocker.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:43 AM By Kristen
To Fr. M.P.,
I never said God made sin. I said God created people with a homosexual tendency. If I believe that, rather than a homosexual is someone who had a brain disorder, it would follow that I believe that person should not be derided for his or her choices. That person should not be discriminated against by the state. I understand the Catholic Church thinks that if a union cannot produce children, it is not sanctioned, but I don't agree with that . What what we have here is both a cvil and a religious issue, and Prop 8 is mixing the two, unfairly in my opinion.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:47 AM By JLS
Aaron, dementation derives from sin. Someone who advocates sin demonstrates this reduction of the capacity to reason and/or distinguish truth from deception. While you are calling names, and supposing that it is a mud slinging contest, this is not true; my purpose to to illustrate what I have learned from Catholicism. The purpose is to "admonish the sinner", which activity is the expression of divine love. "God so loved the world" (including homosexuals), "that He gave His life that we may live" eternally with Him.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:50 AM By george
Aaron, aren't you the guy who was married for many years and had several children? It is sort of difficult to have children if you have zero attraction to women. Are you implying you are not the father of your children? As for your relationship with the other dude, you can do anything you want to do. However, if you want to be Catholic, then you can live with Tomas, but you can't have sex with him. If you insist on having a sexual relationship, then go to the episcopal church. Rest assured though, that you were not born homosexual. Homosexuality comes from exposure to homosexuals. That is why heterosexuals do not want homosexuals around our children - later in life they tend to think "as long as I can remember, I've felt this way." Wrong. So, we appreciate you moving to Spain.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:50 AM By JLS
Goats excell for both milk and meat, and can serve to keep lawns trimmed.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:55 AM By george
Harry, we know for certain that homosexuality is not a part of God's plan for us when read - oh, now what was the name of that book...??? Oh, yeah, the Bible. Right there in black & white. Do you need chapter & verse? (sorry JLS - I didn't mean to take your easy one).
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:57 AM By JLS
Harry, the reason I know for certain is explained above, and not only by me. If you want to waste time with the vanquished philosophy about how does one really know anything at all, then go ahead. But for your own sake, you should study also the various other philosophies that circulate these days and have always done so. If you have the mind and tenacity for it, then read St Augustine's treatment on such things. If all you want is your disordered lust, and social approval for it, then keep doing what you're doing ... but you may not achieve either goal. Lust can never be satisfied.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:04 PM By JLS
Kristen, demented comes from sin. You and your priest friend are proclaiming a falsehood hostile to God and His Church. It does not take character strength to do that, nor courage, but slavery to the devil. And as for you concluding comment about me, yes, and you've got it right ... I'm only a little bit off my rocker ... a vast improvement from when I snubbed the call of Christ and fell into the crowd of the Blessed Mother Mary, Ever Virgin. What I'm trying to say here, Kristen, is that I know what it is to be outside the Church and inside the Church, outside the grace of God and inside the grace of God. I'm trying to persuade you that there is more awaiting you inside the Church than in your deception. The reason I can see this, Kristen, is my faith; God makes faith available to all and each of us, yet only some take possession of that tiny seed of faith in God. I've looked into the terrible jaws of many evils, and homosexuality is one of the most viscious of them all, and today couches itself in the guise of "an angel of light", such as Lucifer.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:18 PM By Jay1
Harry, it is not part of God's plan because it is sinful.Can you demonstrate that active homosexuality is part of God's plan? Are your arguments based on silence?
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:28 PM By Tobias2012
The Church has never said that gay people are not good. However, the Church will not change its' position on the sins of the flesh. The Church loves gay people so much that they don't want them to go to Hell because of the "ACTS" of homosexuality. Sadly people have been duped by the lies of our current Sodom and Gomorra mentality.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:30 PM By Chris
Dai Yoshida, that is just plain silly. No person I've ever heard of is sexually attracted to goats vs. humans, and goats cannot enter into legally binding contracts with humans. Two very simple realities evidently lost on you. It's unfortunate how misguided zealotry so easily obscures both compassion and reason.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:32 PM By Tobias2012
The Church has never said that gay people are not good. However, the Church will not change its' position on the sins of the flesh. The Church loves gay people so much that they don't want them to go to Hell because of the "ACTS" of homosexuality. Sadly people have been duped by the lies of our current Sodom and Gomorra mentality.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:36 PM By Tobias2012
The Church has never said that gay people are not good. However, the Church will not change its' position on the sins of the flesh. The Church loves gay people so much that they don't want them to go to Hell because of the "ACTS" of homosexuality. Sadly people have been duped by the lies of our current Sodom and Gomorra mentality.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:47 PM By Jay1
Kristen, what is your evidence that God created people with a homosexual tendency?
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 1:22 PM By Aaron
JLS: Interesting that you are not married, but providing advice on what loving someone is all about. Traditional marriage just like gay marriage cannot survive unless there is a commitment and bond between the couples; making passionate love helps to seal the relationships.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 1:39 PM By george
Aaron, it also is a concrete rejection of God and helps to seal your fate.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 1:40 PM By Harry
JLS - your statement "Rest assured though, that you were not born homosexual. Homosexuality comes from exposure to homosexuals" has got to be the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Pray tell, what makes you the expert on homosexuality? Isn't that rather like a bank robber claiming to be an expert on investment banking?
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:01 PM By Mark from PA
Thank you for your post Kristen. You know Father so you can speak the truth of this. JLS, you can call someone demented but it is just name calling. We know that you hate homosexuality and gay people. To me that is sad.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:01 PM By Harry
Jay1, back up the bus; I do not argue that homosexuality IS a part of God's plan. I question the certainty with which folks profess otherwise, and worse yet base their entire views of gay people on (which include pretty harse judgments of fellow men and women). My point being, so much anti-gay sentiment is expressed here but what if 1)gay people are born gay, because 2)God made them that way, and 3)current Catholic teaching is off base due to Biblical misinterpretation or other factors? I'm not saying it is, I'm saying the very possibility of it warrants more humility and less rhetoric. Besides, a legal marriage LICENSE has nothing to do with church. Otherwise atheists should be barred too right? Are any of you advocating taking away the right of atheists to get married? Anyone? Anyone? So why must so many Catholics put on their little martyr outfits in the name of marriage when no religion of any kind should be controlling legal licenses issued by the state?
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:11 PM By Kristen
JLS, all I have to say to that is I'm glad you are happy and have found peace. Unfortunately, this conversion had caused you to be a hateful and judgemental person, not at all what Christ would have in mind for anybody to be to their fellow man, For you to call an honest, holy person demented is only proof that you lack discretion, goodness, or really a developed sense of judgement, rather than a knee jerk, uninformed sense of judgement. You shouldn't make sweeping statements about someone whom you know very little about.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:15 PM By Kristen
Jay1, my evidence is that of personal experience of people saying they have felt gay since childhood, absent any abuse, and the growing body of knowledge in the scentific community that brains are wired differently. I know, not a scienific explantion, but I'm quite sure much more persuasive an argument that the other side. What is your proof he did not? I think we could at least agree that we don't know for sure that God did not.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:22 PM By bruno
Most homosexuals will tell you of school experiences where straight people were more than willing to point out their homosexualty! How can straight people then retreat and say, "But it's a choice"? You are full of baloney! You know it's not a choice. I wish heterosexuals would concentrate on the sticks in their own eyes: at their feet can be laid abortion, rape, rampant divorce, etc. among other massive social problems. Please explain yourselves for a change, would you?
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:30 PM By Dai Yoshida
Chris: I said "Wink wink", Jeez.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:01 PM By susan Hedges
Fr. Steve, thank you for your courage. You are another hero to me. As a straight Episcopalian I agree wholly with you. Sexual orientation is not a choice, and marriage should not be limited to 'straight' couples. I intend to vote no on Prop 8. Thanks again for you witness.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:31 PM By Kristen
To JLS-
If Fr. Niskanen is demented, because "demented comes from sin", then we are all demented. We all sin. I can't tell you how much I resent you calling him that. I don't know why people are personally attacking his him, calling him names, accusing him of homosexuality--which you have zero basis for, This show of ugliness is the poorest display of Catholicism, or Christianity, that I have seen in a long time.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:23 PM By Jay1
Kristin, you appear to be basing your believe on evidence for a biological component . This is not convincing for me. I know from God's Word that God created heterosexuality. I see nothing in God's Word or Church teaching that God created homosexuality. In both the old and new testaments all homosexulity is consider sinful. As to the biological component - death has a biological component as does decay, diseases, disorders. But death was never part of God's created intent for mankind - it was a consequnce of original sin - as was decay, disease and disorders. Even though homosexuality may have a biological component, it too may be a consequence of original sin. The Church teaches that we were affected both spirtually and bodily by man's fall. Again, your biological explanation is not convincing theologially as there is an alternate theological argument that plausibly can account for any biological component to homosexuality.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:30 PM By Jay1
Harry, as to people born gay and therefore made by God -see my response to Kristin. This, coupled with the lack of scriptural evidence that God created homosexuality in mankind, coupled with the fact that ALL homosexual activity is considered sinful in both the old and new testament indicates to me that God did not create homosexuality in man.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:58 PM By Jay1
Harry, as far as biblical mis-interpretation, below are a few examples of non-biblical writings by 1st centruy Jewish and early Church Fathers dealing homosexuality. These people are nearly 2 thousand years closer in language and culture than we are.Josephus (1st century Jewish historian) tried to explain the Mosaic Law to Gentiles as
“the law recognizes only sexual intercourse that is according to nature, that is with a woman…But it abhors the intercourse of males with males” (Against Apion 2:199).
The Apostolic Constitutions (early Church document)
“for the conjunction of man and wife, if it be with righteousness , is agreeable to the mind of God for he had made then from the beginning male and female, and he blessed them….but we do not say so of that mixture that is contrary to nature, or of any unlawful practice; for such are enmity to God. For the sin of Sodom is contrary to nature. As is also that with brute beasts….All these things are forbidden by the laws; for thus say the oracles””Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind”
Tertullian "The Christian confines himself to the female sex." (Apology, 46)
And: "I should suppose the coupling of two males to be a very shameful thing"
Against the Valentinians, 11)
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:01 PM By Jay1
Harry, one more example and a question
Philo (1st cent. Jewish philosopher)– “pursuing unlawful connections, those who were men lusted after one another and not regarding or respecting their common nature. But God increased the natural desire of men and women for a connection together, for the sake of producing children, and detesting the unnatural and unlawful commerce of the people of Sodom, he extinguished it” (Abraham 136-137).
Can you please provide me with same time frame Jewish/early Church Father's writings supporting the allowability of active homosexuality? thankyou,
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:07 PM By Jay1
Harry(and others), although there is some un-called for writing here please do not confuse judging with admonishing. Much of what goes on here against active homosexuality is admonishment and not judgement. Scripture allows admonishment (particularly by people within authority within the Churc) but not judging. In fact, admonishing the sinner is consider a spirtual act of mercy.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:12 PM By Eileen
Verkola, Your responses are always spiritually lofty and intellegent. I have dialogued with you before and have appreciated that you were always respectful. If you don't mind I'd like to cut through the clouds and ask you for a down to earth response. #1Do you think that homosexuals should be ordained? #2 Do you think that Father Niskanen and Father Farrow did grave harm to the faithful? Verkola, do you live in neutral Switzerland? Am I wrong in sensing that you absolutely know the Teachings of the Church, but you do not agree with all of the Teachings of the Church? If I am wrong, I thought that you would appreciate knowing that your fact filled neutrality comes across that way. You are too intelligent and quick to the explanations to be lukewarm, so it would be very helpful to have those questions answered so I understand for future responses. Thank-you!
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:56 PM By JLS
Not so Kristen. One good confession delivers you from the guilt of your sin. The road of repentance fills you with the grace of God. What our minds lack because of our own or other's sins, including the effects of original sin is compensated for by the mystical body of Christ. To persist in grave sin, such as your priest friend admits to, puts one outside this grace. The basis for recognizing his homosexuality comes from his own (reported) words: "But I cannot in conscience unequivocally support Proposition 8 because I cannot in my heart of hearts say with certainty, at this time, that God would not call His gay and lesbian children into a faithful and life-long covenant with one another.” Circumlocution may fool some, but not all. The man admits to the homosexualist view, meaning he is indeed such a one, and in defiance to natural and divine law. That, Kristin, is the effect of homosexuality, the scarring of the conscience and the dim vision of truth. You are tuning into the criticism for a reason, and the reason is your own deep search for truth, for the grace which is not to be found in your present protectorate, a man who exalts his own judgment above that of God.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 8:11 PM By JLS
We have a new round of claims that homosexuality is sometimes inborn, and along with this spate of claims, comes the devil's position. The homosexualist propaganda would sell us the idea that if the perversion is inborn, then it is ok. This is one of those classic lies of Satan. Jesus Himself dealt with this sort of deception in the Three Temptations: The devil spits out half truths and mixes them with lies ... the only way to see these ruses is with eyes of faith. The reality is this, that it is possible to be born with a tendancy towards homosexual attraction ... what the apologists for this perversion don't know or don't say is that it is still a perversion of nature. To claim otherwise is to defy the Word of God, which in one case is spoken by St Paul, when he teaches us that sodomy is the consequence of sin. So, sin does not stop and go for each generation, but carries down many generations ... like a snowball rolling down a hill, as it grows bigger and bigger. When the sin gets enormous, then it breaks out in sodomy. Some people possibly are born with this curse. But they are obligated to live chastely. Note that Niskanen says this in the quote from the bishops' Always Our Children, but he also thwarts the Magisterium by raising this condition of sin to the high altar like it were a canonized saint. This is lunacy on the spiritual level, and thus is why I assigned the title of nut bucket to the man. Hey, what's the difference between this and calling him a pit of vipers, a term used by Jesus, for those who would pervert His people. Jesus has raised up innumerable saints, and Niskanen has ignored them and proposed himself as the greatest of all, greater than God Who delivered the Law condeming homosexual behavior. That is the essense of demented, to tell God to move over.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 8:17 PM By JLS
bruno, all that you want explained has been done in past threads on this site. You can search it out in the archives. In short, even in cases where homosexual tendencies are not the choice, but possibly inborn, it does not relieve the individual so afflicted of the burden of following Jesus. This may mean giving up sex totally. Or it may mean just giving up sinful sex, and/or the occasions for such sin. It may mean to always suppress its expressions lest such a thing have a bad influence on others, especially children. The sin of sodomy began somewhere, and has consequences which can stretch down many generations ... Note that it starts somewhere, and this means at some point it is a choice. A homosexual who has any charity in his or her heart will not want to influence anyone to make such a choice. Therefore, a repentant homosexual will follow the Law of God, including charity for the sake of impressionable children.
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:31 PM By JohnnyV13
I do not think the prop 8 question is so simple as saying that there should be no distinction between catholic morality and civil law. In this stance, I am guided by St. Augustine's "City of God, City of Man", a book which seems sadly forgotten today. In this work, Augustine attacks the question of how a Christian devoted to God can also be a good citizen of his City when the two often seem in conflict. Augustine opinioned that we should not expect secular law to conform to moral law, since we commit the sin of hubris to think mankind can create the City of God on earth. Consequently, Augustine said that a Christian can support secular law even if it is not consonant with our moral beliefs IF such law promotes civic order. (Of course, Augustine held a Christian should comport him or herself according to moral law taught by Christ). In addressing this question, we need to ask ourselves not whether gay marriage is "moral" according to Catholic doctrine, but whether preventing gay marriage promotes civil order amongst those who refuse to follow Catholic teaching. I won't pretend to cover all the pertinent arguments within this framework. The crux of the issue, however, comes down to this: does allowing gay marriage create more social decay than compelling practicing homosexuals toward a promiscuous lifestyle because they cannot create legally binding single partner relationships? This question isn't exactly easy to answer. Obviously, homosexual promiscuity causes hedonitic displays such as "Gay Pride" and creates STD risks . On the other hand, giving state imprimatur to gay relationships might lead more people to live an openly "gay" lifestyle. Which condition is less conducive to Catholics remaining faithful to their principles in this life? I lean toward curbing homosexual promiscuity since openly gay lifestyle is still stigmatized in heterosexual culture and by parents (who have a direct genetic interest in hetero children).
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:33 PM By Maria C
Mark from PA JLS does not hate "gay people" as you called it. He hates the sin and what it has become and it still is becoming. Like cancer it is spreading its sin and scandelizing our children, it is bringing forth violence, hate and separation. All types of sin does that. For those who brought forth the subject of gay marraige, it is not marraige it is mock marraige because you are mocking marraige and you will never receive God's blessing for such unions, you can not be fruitful and mulitply, it is not God's plans and it will never be. Man can bring these secular laws into reality but it does not mean that they receive our Lord's blessings. You can fool yourselves but you can never fool the faithful who are loyal to God and His ways!
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Posted Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:35 PM By JLS
Aaron, I am in a marriage condition. As a member of the mystical body of Christ, I am also a member of the Bride of Christ, the Church in other words, and thus am experiencing the love that God has for the Bride and the Bridegroom, shared by both. Also, it is easy for me to see the love of men fpr their wives and children, and that of wives for their husbands and children, and how amazingly different it is than any affection between homosexuals. Aaron, in my study of animals, I find a greater bond between my male dog and my female dog who has born him many puppies. Even this relationship between these beasts is superior to anything I find or hear about or read describing "gay marriage". If you really want love, then go to God, not to the object of your lust.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:43 AM By Aaron
George: Yes, I have 2 children. Like many others born with same sex attraction, I married because of social pressure, choosing not to be open about my sexuality because it can end a career, expose one to humiliation, brutality and even death. I fathered only by mentally focusing on men so I could perform coitus. Further, I CHOSE to continue this unnatural behavior out of respect for my wife & in order to assure that our children would have the safety of a mother & father in the home, rather than being victimized by divorce. I believe in keeping commitments. At the same time, I was unable to be completely intimate with my wife, whom I loved dearly (for 32 yrs. until she died of cancer), despite the lack of natural physical attraction. I do not despair of taking responsibility for what I did, even though it was unnatural & incredibly difficult. Neither of my children are gay; I am now a grandfather. My children completely accepted the FACT that I was born with same gender attraction and appreciate what they call my courage for keeping the family together (with God's help and endless months/years on my knees praying for strength). My children both love and respect Tomas, my partner of 8 years. They are not happy that we now live in Spain only because US Immigration policies do not allow gays to sponsor their foreign partners for a green card which affects 40,000 Americans. i engage CA Catholic only to openly share my life in the hope that reasonable people can begin to understand the consequences of forcing unnatural behavior on those who were born with same gender attraction, part of God's plan for humanity. Gays are not a threat to society, civilization or the church.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:41 AM By Mark from PA
JLS, it is a good think that I did not come across anyone like you when I was a young person because the answer would have just been to remove myself from this earth to satisfy people like you. When I was a teen, I was a virgin, I didn't drink, didn't use drugs but to you I still would have been a disordered pervert and better off not around decent people like yourself. You feel that it is a virtue to sit in judgement over people you despise. You hate homosexuality. I GET IT. Whatever happened to love your neighbor as yourself?
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:50 AM By Larry K
MarkPA , … in that other thread, you state that you attended 12 years of Catholic school. Unfortunately, having attended a Catholic school these days generally doesn't mean much as far as real knowledge of the Catholic faith goes. The seeds of modernism has almost completely infected most Catholic schools since the 1970's and authentic Catholic education has been very lacking for the most part since the 1960's. I attended some of the best Catholic schools (grade 1-12 class of 1975) in my city, and so little that was relevant to the faith was taught -- I'd say I hardly learned anything there. The teachers didn't know how to defend the faith or teach any relevant facts about it -- it was generally an afterthought for them. Look at what happened when the encyclical Humanae Vitae was released in 1968. There was widespread disobedience and dissent to this official teaching of the Church, even among many priests -- and the Church had only reaffirmed what it had already been teaching. I would bet the majority of "modern" Catholics attending mass in the Roman Right these days don't even understand that one has to be in a state-of-grace (i.e. free from mortal sin) to receive communion. It's a sin to receive communion with the stain of mortal sin on one's soul. Once a month in my high school (1970's), a time would be set aside for the entire school to attend mass. Among those that attended mass, almost all would receive communion -- but hardly anyone ever went to confession. It was like sin all of a sudden didn't exist, compared to how the Church functioned previously in the 1950's.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:50 AM By Larry K
The modernism that has infected many Catholics is evident in this thread. It leads people to think that they are free to make up their own ideas on many moral teachings -- because well -- the Church just might be wrong. These modernists act like the Church is just another religious body of many, giving out one of many different but equal opinions about moral teachings. How many Catholic women these days use artificial contraception like the Pill (a mortal sin) and yet think they are not sinning and are free to receive communion in the Church because they've decided it is ok? Look at the so called Catholic politicians like Pelosi and Biden that flaunt official Catholic teachings and yet attend mass, take communion, and pretend they are good Catholics. This is scandal.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:51 AM By Larry K
Do the modernists that have posted in this thread understand what the Catholic Church is? Do you think the Church can err on its officially taught points of faith and morals? Better think again if you do. What would be the point of a Church that could err and mislead people in matters of faith and morals? The Catholic Church is the institution that God (Jesus) left behind to teach mankind His laws and assist men with their salvation, and provide guidance to the revealed word of God in scriptures. It has Gods official authority in it (apostolic authority). Despite the widespread modernism in the Church since the 1960's, the official Church teachings are protected from error in faith and morals by the Seat of Peter (Pope). Nothing can get officially proclaimed unless it is by authority of the Pope -- and that is the only thing standing in the way of many modernists trying to change the Church and its teachings. The modernists were agitating for changing the Church's teaching on contraception (the pill) in the 1960's. And what did the Pope do? He reaffirmed what the Church had been teaching up until then. To change the previous teaching on this matter would have amounted to admitting that the previous teaching was in error -- and then saying that the new and different teaching was now correct. This would have been tantamount to the Church admitting it could err in its official teachings -- and would repudiate the very institution the Church claims to be -- Gods authority here on earth.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:54 AM By Aaron
JLS???? Being born with an attraction to one's own gender is a perversion??? You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...I personally believe God will hold you accountable for inflammatory remarks such as this --- this sort of careless, nonsensical comment causes you to lose all credibility for an honest discussion. My takeaway from what you wrote is that you HONESTLY believe that the love, caring, commitment, integrity that Tomas and I have in our 100% monogamous relationship is a perversion, eh??? You might get incensed if I said that I believe people who spend too much time with dogs are perverted, because they can't stand being in a close relationship with human beings who might disagree with them...It is pretty safe to have a committed relationship with puppies, because they always do what you want them to do-either that or you can punish them! Humans aren't like that, John. They don't just wag their tales and beg for you to throw the ball.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:29 AM By Harry
Jay1, I'm not going to get in a war with you on quotes and interpretations. The reason is simple: one, both you and I will be able to dig an endless well of such "evidence" to "prove" what we each already believe, with the other dismissing those evidences. Two, all of that obscures the most basic logic of all, which is that despite what anyone professes, past or present, I utterly refuse to believe that human beings whose sexuality is homo rather than hetero deserve any of the garbage that goes on here. It's cruel, unnecessary, and purely un-Christian. I believe in my deepest heart of hearts that Jesus himself would agree with me. People like you and JLS can spout all you want in defense of your positions, and I will not likely ever change those positions. You can even dismiss my views as tainted by the devil or some other such nonsense (which JLS does all the time), but I believe what I believe all the way to the core of my heart and soul. I suppose you do too, but the difference is my belief engenders love and compassion for all, while your view engenders love and compassion only for those you feel follow the rules properly...and you decide that for yourself no matter what anyone says, to coincide nicely with your discomfort with the very idea of homosexuality. Bottom line: I think you are wrong. Tragically wrong.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM By RR
Aaron: Every time you say you "make love" with your partner, Tomas, it makes me sick to my stomach. There is nothing loving in gay sex. It's deviant and disgusting. You don't make love. You commit the sin of sodomy, which is a mortal sin worthy of hell. You are taking this, Tomas, you supposedly love so much to hell with you. Apparently JLS knows more about a true relationship than you even though he is not married. He knows, unlike you, that in the eyes of God there is no such thing as a gay marriage or a gay loving relationship. Neither will ever exist in the eyes of God. It's an abomination.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:13 AM By MarkF
Mark from PA said,
"Why should all gay people leave the Church just to satisfy homophobes?"
Mark, do you believe in the Catholic Church? I'm very serious about this, do you believe that the Church is founded by Jesus and contains the truth? If you do then you cannot say that what the Church teaches about homosexuality is "homophobic."
It all comes down to whether you faith is in the Word of God revealed in the Bible, in sacred tradition and in the teaching of the Church, or whether you believe in making yourself your own god.
I faced this same choice last year but I found that I loved God so much that I would sacrifice my own homosexuality for him. Then after doing that I became so much clearer that I had only given up something that was making me unhappy and was a sin. It all comes down to the first commandment, as the law of Moses says and as Jesus himself said. We're to love God with all our heart and with all our soul. And as Jesus also said, we're to take up our cross and follow him. It's not about making a deal with God based on what we want. It's about surrender and humility before our Father.
I suppose that none of this will makes sense to you, just as I didn't to me before I accepted the Word of God in its fullness. But I do pray that you accept the Word of God and not the word of the flesh.
Love between two men is fine... but sex is another matter. I had to learn this the hard way, but God has a way of making something good out of something bad.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:13 AM By bruno
Dear JLS,
Sodomy is also practiced by straight people. I am a gay man and have never practiced sodomy. Being gay is not a definition of your sex life but simply of what you are. That definition is needed also to explain "what you are not" (e.g., I am not straight, and you know I am not straight--- I owe it to myself to be clear) It's like being left-handed in a right-handed world. "I need to write, but I cannot use the desk and scissors they give most people." Also, gay people cannot take their cues from straight people about how we should cope with ourselves. It does not work. Therefore, I think many gay adults feel responsible to be positive roll models to other gay people. That is what this priest did. People who speak up for miniorities are really only best understood from the vantage point of the minority they help to relieve and are never popular with the majority. Many historical figures have proven this, even Jesus himself I would say. It's all about being honest, and not suppressing the truth to comfort the majority. Frankly, I think it plainly angers some that gay people have demanded their rights, but I doubt it actually surprises them. You would do the same thing if you were gay, or at least I hope you would.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:43 AM By Chris
I see references ad nauseum about "the sin of sodomy." Forgetting all else except common sense, why is that even a sin? Who cares? Yes of course we all know that actual procreation can only occur with unprotected man-woman sexual intercourse. I get that. And 1,000 years ago propagation of the human species was probably a valid concern. But in a world verging on overpopulation, and on an inability to feed and care for the people we have, are sexual relations that do not produce children really that big of a deal? Same goes for contraception. I know some people will never budge on these things, they being of the sort to say "that's the way it's always been so don't mess with it." But really, common sense: why is sexual relation between two men or two women even a sin at all? Or contraception for that matter? I think they are both examples of the Church fixating more on The Rules than on common sense.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:04 AM By Kristen
To JLS,
Please explain what you mean by "the man admits to the homosexualist view, meaning he is indeed such a one". Does this mean you believe him to be a homosexual? Your language is quite flowery, but difficult to understand. You have absolutely no basis to call him a homosexual if you are. Because he has concern for peoples' civil rights does not make him a homosexual,
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:12 PM By Jay1
Harry, you say “ but the difference is my belief engenders love and compassion for all, while your view engenders love and compassion only for those you feel follow the rules properly” I disagree, if what I am saying is the truth then their souls are in danger if they reject that truth. I do care for their souls and for the souls of others who follow your false teaching. The fate of their souls is what is in the balance. The Truth will not ultimately harm them.
I do not believe anything I have said in my prior notes is cruel, unnecessary, or un-Christian. (Please cite an example from me you think does). I simply responded to arguments first put forward by pro-homosexuals seeking to convince others that Church teaching is in error. My responses to these pro-homosexual arguments may have undercut their cherished positions - sometimes cogently. You have not provided any responses to the arguments I have made. Instead you seem to rely on a secular notion of what Jesus would do. If you look at what Jesus had done you will see he was not always warm and fuzzy – especially to the Pharisees (those in positions of authority ). Yes, I do have a discomfort with homosexuality because it grievously goes against God’s commands and attempts are being made to alter Church teaching. No apologies for my writings.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:36 PM By Aaron
RR: Making love in either a committed gay relationship or between a traditional married couple can take many forms. I don't know what kind of images stir up in your head when I say the words "making love," but those images are probably far from reality. Traditional married couples don't always make love through coitus, neither do your gay or lesbian friends. I fail to understand the focus on a sexual act that runs through this commentary. As I have said before, it is a relatively small portion of a relationship in a marriage or a committed relationship. Important? Of course. The intimacy people have when making love helps to keep the couple together, whether they are gay or straight. But most of the time, all of us are doing other things like ironing, laundry, mowing the lawn, taking the dog for a walk or going to work. I don't understand why it is such a big deal to you that gay couples require intimacy precisely as do traditional married couples. If married couples are together only for sex, the relationship will soon dissolve. A marriage or a committed partnership is far more than having sex. If I only wanted to have sex, I certainly wouldn't take the time or effort required to have a committed, monogamous relationship. It takes work, but is worth every effort.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:15 PM By Mark from PA
Amen, Aaron. What you do in the bedroom is your own business. What is most important is the love that you share for each other in your heart. You are right Bruno, I haven't done a lot of that stuff either but a lot of straight people do. The Church teaches that oral sex, etc. is perversion. But you don't hear them telling people that from the pulpit. If all the straight people that did stuff like that left the Church along with their money, the Church would be in trouble. Mark F, I find it amazing that you were gay for 30 years and are now heterosexual. If you were using other people and in abusive relationships it is best that you left it behind. But someone like Aaron is living a different life. He is in a committed, monogamous relationship and he is blessed by God in this.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:28 PM By Karen
Maria C. - are you really truly unable to distinguish church from government? No one is asking God to bless gay unions! Hel-lo! It's not that hard a concept. But see, God doesn't issue marriage licenses at the courthouse. At least, He doesn't at my courthouse! Just as the city clerk doesn't give the homily on Sunday nor do we pray to the city clerk to forgive us our sins. See? Two different things. So how about this. How about you keep your moral and religious ideas confined to your life and your observance of your faith in your own life, which is great and we should all do that and respect others who do that, and let the government do its job of treating citizens equally under the law?
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:32 PM By Eileen
Aaron's defense of mortal sin."It takes "work" but it is "worth the effort"! I wonder if the souls in hell used that same logic? I wonder if the sins that they rationalized while alive on earth, sounded just like you rationalizing that they are "worth the effort" in exchange for an eternity of suffering in hell? Aaron, do you believe that a place called hell exists and that you might end up there with all of your hard "work" at promoting sin or have you rationalized that away in your conscience too? I promise you that if you stay on the same path without repenting it won't be worth the pain you will suffer. The greatest pain will be the loss of your inheritance to be with God for "All Eternity", by your foolish arrogance. You are also leading Tomas to hell. Will that be worth it too? You do not love Tomas. You love yourself and your needs above God, His teachings, and Tomas's soul. Your actions show how much you really hate God's Laws and Tomas's soul. The last virtue of a dying civilization is tolerance of evil. Love the sinner (Tomas and yourself) but hate the sin. Stop sinning and you won't have to embarrassingly defend your mortally sinful lifestyle on a Catholic website. Since you seem to have zero intention of ever seeking the truth that your life is contray to the Gospel... would you ever foolishly start your own website called "There Is No Such Thing As Sin", where every perversion is welcomed and embraced. There you can blissfully maintain the fantasy that you are not offending God. You may then continue to have your pretend temporary heaven here while you squander your's and Tomas's Eternity with God. The only work that will be worth every effort is your telling God that you are sorry and changing your life to please God.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:48 PM By Jeremiah
LarryK, I'm not sure if you really want an answer or are just venting, but I have an answer. Right or wrong, more and more people stray from traditionally strict Catholic teaching because as the decades and centuries roll by things must change to stay relevant. If you ask 100 people, both Catholics and non, many of them will tell you of the great respect they have for the rituals of Catholicism. I happen to agree. Rituals and ceremony and tradition are wonderfully affirming to one's faith. But when a person, their parents, and grandparents all struggle with the same rigid rules that they follow because the church told them to, folks are going to make assessments about which rules are helping them and which are hindering them. You will probably say anyone who doesn't follow every rule is simply weak, lazy, self-indulgent, or evil. I disagree. I believe the vast majority of Catholics are more than willing to do their very best by the church and also to admit when they fail....but there is a limit. If the rigidity and strictness are perceived to have more negative consequence than positive, over years and lifetimes, people are going to start walking away. That is using our God-given sense. Those who condemn it can give themselves a blue ribbon for following the rules better, but in the end if the church is half empty then I say the church has failed.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:54 PM By george
Aaron, even in the event that some people might be born with same sex attraction, those people are not attracted to nor seek out others who may project the same feelings. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority seek vulnerable heterosexuals, most often youth, to groom, initiate, convert, and/or victimize. The truth of the matter is that homosexuality is bred through contact with homosexuals. Someone converted you Aaron. How many have you spread it to?
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:58 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, you are being very presumptious here. How can you tell someone that you don't know that they are in mortal sin? You can't judge the state of someone's soul. What makes a sin mortal? The sin must be seriously wrong, you must know it is seriously wrong and you must give full consent of will. Is what Aaron doing seriously wrong? I don't know so. Aaron probably doesn't think so. Does he know it is seriously wrong? I don't know that it is. He may not think it is seriously wrong. Is Aaron fulling consenting to offend God by what he is doing? I don't think he is. He probably doesn't think he is. Aaron is sharing his life with a person he loves and cares about. What of all the good things he does for Tomas? What about all the good things that Tomas does for him? Perhaps if you met these men and spent a few days with them you would have different thoughts about this.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:03 PM By JohnnyV13
HarryK, I believe its is disingenious of you to pretend there was no reason for controversy with respect to Humanae Vitae. During Vatican II, John the XXIII commissed a group to study the question of contraception and catholic faith. This group's official recommendation was certain forms of artificial contraceptives did not conflict with catholic teaching. John XXIII died, and Paul XIII ascended to the throne and promptly commissioned a second study on this question. Not surprisingly, this second study came to a conclusion more to Paul's liking, and he issued Humanae Vitae in 1968. If you actually bother to read Humanae Vitae, you know many of its early paragraphs are devoted to justifying how these two commissions could come to divergent results, and why only Paul's group came to a "valid" answer. (Basically to deny the idea the primary difference lay in the divergent views of the Popes that ordered these studies). I believe one must be very naive or simply ignorant of the background, not to detect internal politics at play. At the time Paul issued Humanae Vitae, it was not considered infallible doctrine. In 1979, John Paul II proclaimed Humanae Vitae infallible doctrine, over the objection of 400 catholic theologians across the world (who disputed not Humanae Vitae itself but raising it to infallible doctrine). Then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger stripped these 400 theologians of their teaching credentials, including his one time mentor Hans Klum. Of course, good catholics are supposed to igrnore the real world human wrangling behind these decisions. While such an attitude is certainly convenient for the worldly authority of the Magesterium, I am not certain that it benefits my search for truth.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:15 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, It has become so painfully obvious that I need to come over to your mom's house for some ham dinners and rosaries. May we end each decade of the rosary with this prayer? Oh, my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially our Mark who You have instilled a with great compassion for others while he struggles with a great weakness to still defend sin to even weaker sinners. How many roast ham dinners at your mom's house will it take Mark before you completely reject helping others to roast in hell?
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:50 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
I live with two male roomates, and we are very fond of each other, but we do not engage in sodomy. Those of you who call sodomy are just trying to kid yourselves, but you will NOT fool God!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:58 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Eileen is not judging their soul. They already judged their own souls to hell. She is trying to save their souls. There are 3 things necessary for determining Mortal sin: The sin has to be serious, you have to know it is a sin, and you have to have full consent of the will. All three things mentioned are present in his situation. The sin of sodomy is serious enough that God destryed Sodom and Gomorrah. Aaron knows it is a sin because the Church has said it is a Mortal sin. Aaron fully consents to the sin of sodomy by "making love", homosexual sex. So all three things necessary for mortal sin are present thus deserving hell. Come on Mark. Stop defending mortal sin. Aaron knows the sin of sodomy is wrong and serious. He knows it is a sin. He choses to sin. It's not Aaron's feelings that makes something a sin or not. It's the Church's teachings that declare what is sin and what is not.He has full consent of his own will. You're falling for lies. So what if they do loving things for each other? Many killers, rapists, molesters, ... do loving things for people they love, but that doesn't make them not guilty of their sins.
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Posted Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:30 PM By JLS
bruno, I choose to take my definitions from the revelation of God to man. Yours conflict with God's.
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Posted Friday, October 17, 2008 8:31 AM By Jason M.
Why do so many Catholics on this forum sound like extremists? I'm a happy Catholic but I've never heard other Catholics be like this before in my life. Is this forum some kind of place for fringe Catholics, kind of like normal Muslims vs. Islamic extremists? You out there who are not Catholic, please don't take the comments here to be representative of what Catholicism is about!
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Posted Friday, October 17, 2008 9:51 AM By Maria C
Karen I disagree with your views! Surely they don't come from a Christian women! You obvoiusly don't understand from my point of the post, and I don't plan on explaining my self or arguing. I truly believe that one should not cast pearls onto swine and I comment this due to the many who are embracing homosexuality. I go on with another topic; Larry K I like what you posted, you speak truth!
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Posted Friday, October 17, 2008 10:00 AM By Maria C
Larry K I like what you posted, you speak truth! RR thank you for telling it how it is. Aaron has the free will to choose, I just hope he knows and understands that his path does not lead to eternity with Christ. One has to ask themselves, does this path lead me to salvation and perfect sactifying grace in Jesus and His church?? After that, they choose, we can share the truth and pray for them but we cannot choose for them. It is God's grace that can create miracles but one has to first repent in order to receive His divine graces. Hopefully with our prayers they will embrace those graces that come with prayer of neighbor. God's graces will not go in vein they increase with those who are in good will with God. Praise God for the sacraments! May our Lord help us stay on the right path.
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Posted Friday, October 17, 2008 11:07 AM By Mark from PA
Eileen, if you met me you would probably like me because I am a shy person and would be too shy to talk about this in person. You would not know how I felt and I would not know that you hated homosexuality and gay people.
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Posted Friday, October 17, 2008 10:00 PM By JLS
Because, Jason M., the late Pope John Paul II urged Catholics to be radical in their fervor for Christ ... There is nothing more extreme than the Church. Even in Her virtues, such as compassion, She is extreme, radical to the core. You might check out some of God's favorite and most humble servants, and find that these men and women are more extreme than any others ever known. As for what Catholicism is all about, you'll find it in the extreme book called the Bible, and in the extreme documents called the Magisterium, and in the extreme and radical traditions known as Catholicism ... extreme even in Her shear numbers of martyrs for the faith, extreme in all ways, because She mirrors God, Who is absolutely extreme and radical. All other attempts at radical extemism are abject failures whose shadows of imitation are pathetic. If you don't like it, then go back to your hibernation.
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Posted Friday, October 17, 2008 11:46 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
Many sinners are shy persons! What does that have to do with the fact that you are rejecting God's laws.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com
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Posted Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:13 AM By Grace
It is not hate when offering to pray for the cleansing of your soul of it's sinful nature. We all need prayer for we all have sinful natures. However it is the homosexual mafia that is trying pass off sin as something noble. That is vile and it is the work of the devil, the deceiver.
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
2 Timothy 4 3-4
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Posted Saturday, October 18, 2008 8:38 PM By JLS
How well said, Grace!!! In reading your post I also got the insight that with the homosexual mafia agenda of denying sin, then one further effect on society is to dull everyone's sense of the need to confess their sins and turn from them. It is not just their own sinful way of life that they seek to hide, but everyone's, which lulls everyone else away from truth and redemption. It is why they hate reparative therapy so much, because they lothe the Will of God to redeem mankind, they despise the Savior Who gives man dignity and personality in the image and likeness of God.
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Posted Saturday, October 18, 2008 11:59 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, I know it might be difficult for you to hear this but you are the one who is exhibiting hate of homosexuals. You think you sound compassionate and accepting but you are promoting serious sin that could influence people to lose thier soul by condoning and supporting mortal sin. Mark, this question has nothing to do with your shyness. Why are you not helping homosexuals to live in the state of grace,,(such as Aaron)? I'm also very disappointed in your accusation of hatred of homosexuals. Mark, is that the best distraction that you can come up with? Mark, you certainly were not too shy to let me know that if I met you I would probably like you because you wouldn't talk about this. C'mon Mark.....You know about "Love the Sinner, but Hate the Sin, don't you? How can you be loving or teaching anyone if you accept sinful behavior? Homosexual "acts" offend God! Mark, Those roast ham dinners at your mom's might end up being pretty caloric at the stubborn and prideful rate you are moving.
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Posted Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:19 PM By Mark from PA
Wow! I should have stayed in PA. Some of you guys in California are really vicious. I have really stepped into a knife fight here. Love the sinner, hate the sin? That is a bunch of hypocricy. Gay people know that the homphobes don't like them. Just come flat out and say you don't like gay people. Say you hate homosexuality. Because many of you do. But when you say homosexuality is a sin and homosexuals are evil you are giving your opinion because the Church does not teach this. Who are you to judge Aaron being in a state of grace? He may be filled with more grace than many of you.
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Posted Sunday, October 19, 2008 7:21 PM By Mark from PA
I suppose I would have to leave my wife and son home at that dinner Eileen as you would not accept them. We are a diverse family. I probably would take your insults but my son would not. He might say some un-Christian things to you. "Love the sinner but hate the sin" is hypocricy. Just say you don't like gay people. Homophobia hurts.
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Posted Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:47 PM By mary
Pray for him unceasingly.As a lay person I feel we are all partly to blame for the confusion and weakness among so many of our priests.It is obvious the devil is no fool He sets out to lead every one of them away from Jesus.Too often we have taken them for granted. Whenever you hear or read of a priest being led away from loyalty to the magisterium begin praying for that priest and don't stop.My 93 year old mother has shown me how powerful such prayers can be in helping priests regain their priestly fervour and loyalty to the Church's teaching.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 1:13 AM By Patrick
I wonder what would happen if Jesus came down to earth, went on TV and told all of us that Father Niskanen is right, that God does call homosexual people into loving covenants with one another. I'm pretty sure that half the people who have posted here would turn their backs on Jesus and deny His Word.
The point is, faith and absolute certainty are not the same thing. We have to listen to what God tells us, not assume that we know it automatically. Many of you are so certain that God condemns homosexuality that you ignore the numerous ways in which God asks you to change your ways. It is well-established that the human institution of the Catholic Church sometimes errs in striving for the truth, and the Church itself asserts this. Fr. Niskanen heard God's call to question the church's teaching, and he answered.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 4:14 AM By Maria C
Mark from PA since you are labeling faithful Christians as having homophobia, then we should come up with a name for those who oppose the ways of the Lord like calling them Christianphobia's; people who run from the truth and will stop at nothing when it comes to embracing true teachings of Christ and His ways, people who run from Christian life. That word never use to exist until these modern times, they are ways to suppress the Christain or non-Christian from preaching the word and truth in Christ. That word represents your fear of the mystery of Christ because you want to feel safe by labeling those who oppose the homosexual lifestyle. It is a tactic that truly is hateful and non tollerent, so if you ask me, you are the hypocrate! You come on a Catholic website, and preach against the teachings of the church (heresies) and have a tantrum because we don't agree with your posts. I for myself can speak that I truly feel compassion for my fellow brothers and sisters who are lost in their flesh with homosexual tendencies, I truly have love and compassion for them, enough that I truly wish to continue to speak truth to them in Christ, enough to not condone their lifestyle of distruction to their salvation, but what I can't stand is when they want to force their lifestyle on others, they want to change the laws and force Christians or non Christians to accept their unions, their lifestyle and perversion ways by indoctronating our youth into confusion and acceptance of this very disfunctional lifestyle. It is a disfunctional lifestyle that should be looked at as an illness and the medical establishement should help them and the church should not keep on looking the other way and truly help them walk a path that will ultimately lead them to repentance and conversion. Those are my 2 cents.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 4:16 AM By Maria C
This priest has bought the lie. Very sad indeed and sad for those who need help in this life towards their journey of salvation on earth.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 9:02 AM By Eileen
Mark from PA, What do you mean by my family is diverse?
Is your wife a man? Why are are you putting a mystery disclaimer on your own family? Oh, and by the way Mark for a religion teacher you should already know that we should love the sinner but we should hate, reject and avoid all of the 'sinful acts' that do offend Almighty God. Mark, you claim to teach other children religion, yet why haven't you had success with teaching your own son not to say un-Christian things to guests at your own home or your mother's home? Mark denial of sin hurts the soul!
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Posted Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:56 PM By Mark from PA
Eileen, I have answered your questions several times here but it will not post. I will try again later. My wife is not a man.
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Posted Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:30 AM By Tom
From the San Gabriel Mission Weekly Bulletin, dated October 19, 2008...
Dear Parishioners of San Gabriel Mission:
The Peace of Christ be with you!
Two weeks ago, I presented in a bulletin letter an overview of the three Propositions (4, 6 and 8) on which our California Bishops’ Conference has taken an official position. I presented these positions in summary, but then added my own personal opinion regarding Proposition 8, framing it as a matter of my conscience. I regret and apologize for placing my opinions on the same level as our Bishops, “the authentic teachers of the faith.” I fully respect and support our Bishops’ position that Proposition 8 does not intend to infringe on the human and legal rights of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters; rather it seeks to preserve the restriction of the term “marriage” to the complementary, life-long partnership of the whole of life, open to the gift of children, between one man and one woman.
Your brother in Christ,
Fr. Steve Niskanen, CMF, Pastor.
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