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Published: August 28, 2009
Let Us Pray at Mass for Senator Kennedy
But Let us Not Call Him a Promoter of Peace, Justice, Equality, and Liberty
Following the passing of Senator Edward Kennedy last week, Liturgical Training Publications, an agency of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago, sent out an updated version of their Prayers of the Faithful for August 30, the 22nd Sunday in Ordinary Time. Liturgical Training Publications send these prayers to subscribing Pastors and parishes.
This updated prayers of the faithful include this: "For those who have given their lives to service to their country, promoting values of peace, justice, equality, and liberty; especially, Senator Edward M. Kennedy, that he may find his eternal reward in the arms of God….We pray.”
 To pray for Senator Kennedy as one who promoted peace, justice, equality, and liberty, ignoring the 49 million+ babies killed through legalized abortion, would be simply to pray a lie at Mass. Senator Kennedy’s pro-abortion voting record is well known. He voted against the ban partial birth abortion. He voted against the ban on human cloning. He voted to expand embryonic stem-cell research. The list could be extended. He has a 100% rating from the National Abortion Rights Action League.
Please call or email Liturgical Training Publications. Respectfully request that they immediately send out an amended prayer: “For all our beloved dead, especially (particular parish intentions) and for Senator Edward M. Kennedy, that they may find their eternal reward in the arms of God…We Pray.” Also call or email the Archdiocese of Chicago. Respectfully request that they instruct Liturgical Training Publications to send the amended prayer
Contact information:
Liturgical Training Publications
John A. Thomas, Director
773-579-4900, ext 3557
To send an emaI to LTP, click here.
Francis Cardinal George, OMI
Archbishop of Chicago
312-534-8230
Mary Hallan-FioRito
Executive Assistant to the Archbishop
312-534-8211
mhfiorito@archchicago.org.
Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 12:05 AM By Central Valley
No doubt Fresno bishop John Steinbock and his inner "circle" will be pushing this nonsense this weekend.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 12:43 AM By John F. Maguire
Prayers for the named person at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are always already prayers on that person's BEHALF -- this, because Christ died for all men and women, not least for Senator Edward M. Kennedy. The fact that Ted Kennedy was an abortocrat is all the more reason to pray, and pray intensely, on Mr. Kennedy's behalf. ~ But No, to take the occasion of his funeral Mass to pass judgment on Ted Kennedy's soul is itself a species of sin -- and a grave species of sin at that. For although we have every right to judge Kennedy's acts and omissions from the point of view of the objective moral order, we do not have a right to judge him in Christ's sense of final judgment, with respect to which Christ enjoined us: "Judge not that ye not be judged." ~ Was Ted Kennedy an abortocrat? Yes. Does the personnel of the Church cause scandal by blinking away this fact? Yes. But it is to contradict the graces merited by Christ's death on the Cross to prejudge how Mary the Dispensatrix of all graces will distribute the graces won by her Son. One of the purposes of a funeral Mass is to pray that the departed person receive the grace of final conversion and final perseverence in the Faith. Why pray in such a way after the fact -- I mean, after death has occurred? Because, for God, all time is simultaneous. Such supplicatory prayer is one of the defining purposes of a funeral Mass as the Catholic Church understands this, and just this, Mass.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 6:52 AM By Thomas Edward Miles
Your KINDNESS, CHARITY and your LACK of JUDGMENT never cease to amaze me! "See how they love one another"!!
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 6:53 AM By Joseph
Very well written, Mr. Maguire! While not condoning his pro-abortion stance, I laud the man for the many, many fine accomplishments in the Senate on behalf of the poor and underprivileged. He has served us well and in ways I was unaware till his passing -- the way he has reached out to those from his homestate who lost loved ones in 9/11 and his remembrances to those families on the anniversary of 9/11 since then -- his presence at the wakes and funerals of each an every serviceman/woman from his homestate who gave their life in Iraq. The list goes on and on. Not until his death did I come to know how far reaching his care and compassion were to those in crisis and need. May he rest in peace.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 7:09 AM By OneoftheSheep
Let us pray that the Divine Mercy of God will touch Sen. Edward Kennedy and all who have served their country.
Let us not pretend that his life is an exemplary one for it is not one of placing God's Holy Word above the concerns of the world. Senator Kennedy lived a compromised life which resulted in the death of thousands of innocent children in our society. Let us not pretend otherwise. God rest his soul.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 7:16 AM By Linda
If Senator Kennedy ever repented before his death of facilitating the murder of 50 Million Americans in the womb we don't know, or, of leaving Mary Jo to drown. Let's hope he did. Jesus said he will say "I never knew you" to some who call him "Lord, Lord."
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 7:46 AM By JLS
Had it not been for Sinator Kennedy who borked Judge Bork from becoming the 5th pro-life Justice on the Supreme Court, Roe v Wade would have been history. Kennedy alone has the blood of twenty years of legal abortion on his head, which numbers over twenty torturous deaths of unborn babies. This number compares with the souls murdered by Joseph Stalin, well overshadows those caused by Adolph Hitler, dwarfs those committed by Pol Pot, and even sits at the right hand of Mao Tsung who offed 50 million of his own people. Tedzilla will have some interesting company for a long time. In fairness to mercy, that prayer likely is the last one he will ever hear, unless the demons scream it in his ears while they laugh.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 7:47 AM By Theresa
The prayer sent out by LTP may cause confusion and unrest to all the faithful Catholics. The suggested latter prayer is more appropriate since Ted Kennedy did not uphold the 'non negotiables' of our faith.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 8:00 AM By d.b.wheeler
I'm always amazed at how the rich and famous always rate such praise and glory in the Church. You're pretty much on your own when you have nothing and are 'no one' in the scheme of things. Such heart burning and hand wringing on behalf of one man is just such an affront to life.. Who mourns the loss of those precious little ones who'll never have the opportunity to serve God, fall in love, have a child. Ted Kennedy had all that could be given a man, and he chose to be selfish, self-absorbed etc. People confuse 'judge not' with discernment. Use your common sense.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 8:37 AM By Norman Gaulin
He will be Missed by all.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 8:53 AM By JLS
Government social programs provide the Church with lots of money and employment; whereas, prolife efforts do not bring any government money to the bishops at all. Now, what hypothesis could be drawn from these facts?
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:00 AM By Robert Lockwood
This is a perfect example of what ails the Catholic Church. Giving honor where no honor is due. The Pope even has avoided this man who is not Catholic but rather a destroyer of the Catholic faith.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:26 AM By Anne T.
One of the Sheep, you are exactly right. I have heard far too many people declared saints at their funerals, instead of having people pray for them. Many had lived very bad lives even seemingly up til the end. As John F. Mcguire has pointed out, we cannot judge their souls, but we should pray for them instead of making some funerals premature canonizations. I want the same thing for myself--prayers.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:27 AM By Ski Ven
If he died unrepentant, then he's toast.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:35 AM By Canisius
I hope he faces all the souls of the aborted babies he is responsible for
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:41 AM By MarkF
It's hard to assess the soul of any man. It's especially hard in the case of someone who is sincere, but who seemingly has insulted the faith many times - his divorce and abandonment of his wife, most likely because of her alcoholism, and his support for abortion. But at what point do we say that we all are human and all have sinned? Sen. Kennedy certainly did speak up for the lowest members of society - once they were born that is - and we can't ignore that. Truly I think he was let down by the clergy in that they did not fully talk to him about all of these things. Abraham Lincoln struggled too with how to deal with people who seem to be sincere Christians but who do terrible things. In his second inaugural address he says about the southern slave holders and northern abolitionists, "Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged." At this point I feel sorrow for Sen. Kennedy, but I am still mad at the Church for the dissent that has lead us to this point. And the question really is, what should we do? How can we reach out to those who support such things to make them see that true Christianity means respect for all life and for marriage?
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:47 AM By Don Schenk
How about, "For those who have killed a woman, and legislated the deaths of millions of babies, that they may have repented in their final moments and that God may forgive them..." instead?
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 10:14 AM By Willi H
Senator Kennedy, when he was first diagonosed with brain cancer had ample opportunity to return to the Church's teachings and publicly repent. He did not. His soul may have been saved at the last moments of his life through the last rites, but he will pay in Purgatory for the lost souls of abortion. As a Catholic I am supposed to pray for him, but I cannot. Not yet if ever. Nor for Pelosi, nor Dodd, ect.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 10:51 AM By Sister Act
JLS, one cannot pray for a man and spit on his grave at the same time.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:03 AM By Chicago Catholic
I am so proud to live in a diocese where the Cardinal can peer into the minds and hearts of the faithful -- even across state-lines and ecclesiastical boundaries!!! This George is so imbued with spiritual gifts he appears to have been able to bi-locate and be at Senator Kennedy's beside during his final hours and determine he was non-repentant. I think this boy better clean out his own closet before judging the hearts of others, from what I was taught only God does that, but maybe the Cardinal has other ideas.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:13 AM By Linda
It might better have served Kennedy, if people had prayed for him when he was still alive during the 15 months that the man was dying of his brain tumor that he repent of his many public sins. Beginning with his cheating at Harvard, followed by his 1969 abandonment of the young woman to die in the car he crashed into the water (in what state of inebriation was never publicised), his contribution through his sexual excesses to his wife becoming an alcoholic, his corruption of his nephews to follow in his own misguided footsteps, his support of the homosexual perversion in his home state by promoting the oxymoron "same-sex marriage," and, of course, his adoption for political purposes of his support for murdering so many children in the womb. One cannot know, of course, and hence judge, what sins he committed privately. When episcopal leaders talk about conseling such politicians and others, like Levada talking to Pelosi, how much time did this man's local bishop and priests spend with him advising him of the results of the above and other actions on his prospects for salvation? With 15 months to prepare to meet his Maker, and no public acts or talk of repentance and contrition by him how effective were these clerics? If there were such acts he might have been a better exemplar to both Catholics and others, including some of his Democrat cronies. And people might feel more confident of his destination when he died.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:14 AM By betty
how about a prayer that says, "May God forgive him".
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:24 AM By MAJRDAD
God Bless You, d. b. wheeler - you are SO right! We should all be crying tears of deep sorrow each day for the little ones martyred in their mothers' wombs because of the implementation or a horrendous law that spits in the Face of the Almighty! Where our prayers are needed most are in asking Our Holy Merciful Lord to grant these poor holy innocents the Baptism of Blood - their blood united with His Divine Blood - for the sake of their eternal salvation....
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:38 AM By OneoftheSheep
Jesus, I trust in you. As for Ted Kennedy, I certainly hope that the influence and prayers of his beloved mother Rose Kennedy will be enough in the spirit of St. Monica and St. Augustine to obtain some contrition and the ultimate mercy of God for Teddy.
St. Faustina says the Lord told her that the greatest of sinners will have the greatest access to God's mercy.
So, it is the rest of us, who need to keep converting.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the HOUR OF OUR DEATH. Amen.
May the angels lead him into Paradise.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 12:09 PM By The Truth Hurts
John F. Maguire, Once again, your timing is superfluous! The silent John F. Maguire who ignores the daily attacks on the truths of the Catholic Church from articles or dissenting posters is now rushing in center stage to be heard and to defend any harsh words or thoughts against Ted Kennedy or Professor Kmiec. Once again John you are beautifully stating what the Church teaches. Once again John, demonstrating your own selective and elitist imbalance of actually not defending those Teachings that you so sometimes eloquently and selectively love to remark on. Matthew 23: 2-7 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples saying, "The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses. All things therefore that they command you, observe and do. But do not act according to their works; for they "talk but do nothing". And they bind together oppressive burdens, and lay them on men's shoulders: but not with one finger of their own do they choose to remove them. In fact all of their works they do in order to be seen by men, for they widen their phylacteries, and enlarge their tassels and they love the first places at suppers and the front seats in synagogues and greetings in the marketplace, and to be called by men Rabbi."
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 1:20 PM By Anita
If Ted Kennedy can make it to heaven there is no reason for anyone to abstain from any sin. If murder, adultery and promoting homosexuality don't bar us from heaven nothing will. We don't need to go to Mass, confession or honor our marriages. Just have a good time and promote the far left agenda and we have it made. Whoopie!!!!
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 2:09 PM By Tony
I pray that Ted's slain brothers and his sister-in-law Jackie meet his and welcome him into the heavenly Camelot in the presence of the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 2:28 PM By Abeca Christian
I have nothing to say about this man, he is now in God's hands, all I know is that I felt pity for him because he led a lot of people astray with his pro-choice movement. May God have mercy on his soul. Only our Lord will be the judge of him now, I stay out of this one. I never saw him as a hero or someone to look up to. I just felt sad that he had so much power and yet he didn't understand the value of life. What a poor soul.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 2:34 PM By Abeca Christian
Sister Act I feel sorry for you, that you view JLS as spitting at his grave. That was a foolish post, if I may say so. No one is spitting at anyone's grave. It is understandable that when one's legacy is leading a pro-choice movement, it is understandable to see the faithful have mixed feelings of hurt and pain, all those babies killed due to the abortion movement, that is far worst and right now, I would hate to be in anyone's shoes who contributed to helping kill unborn babies. Prayer is due and yes mixed feelings come with that because we are only human and it pains us at how much this abortion movement has grown, even to include partial birth abortion! That will usually bring all sorts of comments from anyone who values life!
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 3:22 PM By A
Joseph, as one woman who had eleven children of her own told me about Senator Kennedy, "You do not help the poor by killing their children." Governor Casey Sr. was a far better and more faithful Catholic, and where was everyone's praise for him. No, instead the Democrats, and probably some Repulican Catholics stabbed him in the back.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:20 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
The real crux of the matter has been brought out by Fr.Euteneuer of Human Life International, and that is that a public sinner who did not PUBLICLY repent of his horrible sins is not be buried in a Catholic grounds (I understand that part of the National Cemetary is consecrated) and is not to receive the benefit of a public funeral Mass let alone have a Cardinal and presumably many Bishops preside over this scandal!
Furthermore: When John F. first ran for President, I cooperated with my friend Congressman Clyde Doyle to organize a rally for John (I highly regret this). At the last minute, John had to change his plans and he sent Ted instead. Even though I had organized a large rally for his brother, Ted treated me like dirt. I highly doubt he was a "good guy" as some including Republicrats have stated for anyone except his political lackeys and his many women, he probably wasn't so nice to the women either.
Have any of you Kennedy fans even bothered to find out what his own personnal contributions to the poor were?
May God have mercy on his very compromised soul. I pray for him with the knowledge that if he cannot benefit from those prayers, which is highly likely, someone else will.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:40 PM By JLS
God reveals in the Old Testament the types of sins and the sinners who grieve Him the most ... Ted Kennedy fits it like a glove. His crocodile tears would fill the Nile River.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:44 PM By Anne T.
The last comment by "A" is mine. I failed to put my whole name.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 9:50 PM By JLS
Sister Act, what makes you think I'm either praying for T K or spitting on his grave? I'm in fact doing neither. His grave is not worth spitting on. No doubt he's got plenty of prayers going up for him; how many saints in Heaven, how many aborted souls in Heaven, how many prophetics pronouncements from bishops and he evidently still refused to allow God into his living room. The Biblical character I see him most matching is Jezebel, who persecuted one of the major Prophets, and who ended up with her body thown outside the castle for the dogs and vultures to devour.
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Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:58 PM By Grisha
Posted Friday, August 28, 2009 11:14 AM By betty
how about a prayer that says, "May God forgive him".
BETTY - Whenever I learn of anyone's death I pray "Lord forgive him his sins and bring him to etrnal life in the world to come, amen."
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:08 AM By Rick
Am I the ONLY one that remembers the USCCB directive to NOT honor politicians that promote abortion? Well, Kennedy was one of the WORST offenders! He promoted ALL of the evils that the church rejects, and we are supposed to honor him at Mass? This is TOO sick for words! Doesn't anyone remember that he KILLED his MISTRESS when he allowed her to drown to hide his affair? This is NOT a man of God or honor! He does NOT even deserve ANY recognition. He never had a "job" and only got elected because of his famous brothers! (And they only got elected because their father was a rich criminal with connections!) These people are a disgrace to the church... It is insulting to REAL Catholics and to God to give them any recognition.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:21 AM By Rick Flores
Those who claim that he cared for the poor insult the poor, for it is a LIE! He did NOT care about those less fortunate. All that you need to do is look at the legislation that he promoted. He was the KING of facade! He gave the "appearance" of caring, but in fact, he did NOTHING for them! He only promoted the special interest groups and the wealthy. ALL of his life was a LIE! He was a drunk, womanizer, humanist fool that only got into his position because of his famous brothers. He supported everything the God hated. He will be judged for his refusal to repent, even at the end when he knew that death was coming. Why should we all follow God's teachings if we can behave like Kennedy and go to heaven anyway? I know that my feelings are NOT PC/popular with the liberals, but they are truthful! Either Christ's teachings are truth or they are lies..
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:17 AM By Fenton
Scandalous. Pray for the souls of the murdered. Pray that God forgives Mr. Kennedy.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 8:02 AM By OneoftheSheep
There is a time between the apparent death of a soul and eternity. St. Faustina says that Christ cries out to the departing soul three times. Remember the good thief on the cross who "stole" paradise, as undeserving as he was, he came to Christ.
Teddy was born, raised, baptized, and confirmed in the faith. I meet many Catholics these days who do not have the courage of their convictions. Yes, I do believe in grace at the hour of death coming from our blessed Virgin Mary. She is full of grace and ready to extend the mercy of the Father to sinners. I do believe Christ called out to Ted Kennedy and I would be most surprised if Senator Kennedy did not recognize the voice of the Good Shepherd seeking out the lost sheep.
May the Lord be merciful to me for I am a sinner but I am of the sheep of His flock. Dumb, ignorant, in need of a Savior. How about the rest of you?
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:01 AM By Rick DeLano
Please pray for Sean Cardinal O'Malley, who prostituted the Catholic Church's liturgy, obediently laying it in the dust at the feet of the world, explicitly surrendering the pulpit to- not merely a layman, in direct contradiction to the rubrics of the Holy Mass- but to a non-Catholic, an enemy of the Church and a murderous facilitator of mass-killing of the unborn, Barack Hussein Obama.
This pathetic, disgraceful surrender of the sacred to the profane makes Notre Shame look like a minor breach of protocol.
Pray, I say again, for the poor, cowardly, weak and scandal-giving Cardinal Archbishop of Boston.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:44 AM By JLS
Ted Kennedy did not recognize the voice of Christ in all his years on earth; what indication is there that he would recognize it at his hour of death? Why is he of any concern after death? There are billions of souls on this planet who need evangelizing and Ted Kennedy blocked them from it. The abused tend to exalt their abusers, and the Kennedy abuse machine has done this to millions ... and we will have to listen to his cult members moan and groan for years. Ted K was a loser and the only thing he gained was Hell. His grave now desecrates Arlington National Cemetary, and his funeral desecrates Catholicism.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:14 PM By Pax Christi
Well said, Mr. Fisher. Fr. Euteneuer sure did lower the boom on that Cape Cod sailing aficionado on LifeSiteNews. He did everything to thwart the Catholic mission except for those tenets that suited his political agenda. I don't know how he could be called anything but a diabolical monster in sheep's clothing.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:48 PM By Anne T.
Linda I, and I am sure many others, did pray for Senator Kennedy's conversion when he was alive. I hope it took in his last moments, or as one blogger put it, he's toast.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:52 PM By Oscar
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Ted Kennedy, thankfully, will soon be forgotten, but what about the millions of children in whose murders he collaborated? "The sins of the bootlegging and adulterer-father Joseph Kennedy, whose stubborn wife Rose was warned against marrying him by her father, "Honey Fitz,"were inherited in spades by at least two of his sons, including this recently deceased secular humanist who masqueraded as a Catholic. Although the father and the other son, it is believed, were not directly responsible for the awful death of a young woman. Most of the so-called intellectual media and political elite, and many members of the clerical establishment, of course, loved his embrace of abortion and sodomy. Hence, the sickening act of O'Malley (like Jenkins at Notre Dame) inviting an active proponent of the Culture of Death to desecrate a Catholic church to weep crocodile tears at the departure of this terribly flawed man, who, one can assume, every Sunday morning desecrated the Body of Christ, with the active connivance of priests. Can we assume that one of the clerics at this so-called Funeral Mass (or is it called a "Celebration of Life"?) spouted that: "Teddy is now up in Heaven with father Joseph and John drinking a pint of Guinness"? That, indeed, would be par for the course in the modern Church.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:42 PM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Rick DeLano: Your claim that Sean Cardinal O'Malley "prostituted the Catholic Church's liturgy" bespeaks a grave misunderstanding of the purpose of any funeral Mass, let alone Senator Kennedy's. (See my post at CCD Aug. 28: 12:43 A.M.) That Edward M. Kennedy, by virtue of his baptismal rights, had a right to a funeral Mass, has never been gainsaid by Ted Kennedy himself (he never renounced his Catholic faith, gravely mistaken though he had been regarding certain crucial aspects of the moral order) nor to my knowledge has Ted Kennedy's baptismal right ever been gainsaid by the Church's ecclesial personnel, firmly opposed to Senator Kennedy's abortocratic policies though this personnel has always been. Consequently, RdL, you should retract your ill-considered attack on Sean Cardinal O'Malley for "prostitututing" the liturgy. Cardinal O'Malley did no such thing.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:00 PM By Anita
What I saw this morning in a Boston cathedral was enough to sicken me for life. There could not have been one Catholic in that Church or they would have cried out in pain. What they did is so sacrilegious as to be unforgivable. How many Catholic's do you think will turn their back on the Church because of this. Not only that, how many will now believe that adultery, murder and abortion are acceptable by the New Church. What I saw this morning has no resemblance to the true Mass or the true Faith. May God have mercy on us for permitting it.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:30 PM By Angelo
Central Valley, "For those who gave their lives to service to their Country, promoting values of peace, justice, equality and lIberty: Especially Senator Edward M Kennedy," Ted gave none of these to 49,000,000 innocent human beings. He in fact gave his life denying theses values to the innocents. Steinbock and his inner circle will use this Holy Day of Sunday, for the canonization of Ted Kennedy. Thus confusing Catholics further. By Canon Law Ted was supposed to be denied a Catholic Funeral.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:36 PM By OneoftheSheep
"The greatest of sinners is entitled to the greatest of my Mercy." Ever hear of Divine Mercy,JLS? Looks like you might be needing some yourself in the future.
No doubt you condemn Christ's gift of Paradise to the thief who hung next to Him on the Cross. Glad my Jesus of Mercy is able to forgive the darkest of sins. Ted Kennedy was no saint but the Catholic religion does teach that a priest has the power to forgive the ugliest of sins. Since a priest was by his bedside and Ted knew he was leaving this earth, he'd be the biggest fool in the world not to obtain an eternal reward despite his failed efforts in this life. I don't think he was that lost, do you?
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:27 PM By JLS
Rick D., what a contrast between the Cardinal's actions in the face of an enemy and the long ago Pope's actions when he walked out to the gate to meet Attila the Hun, who then spared the Church of Rome, but sacked the rest of the city. Today, we hear of one prelate bring up a brief note that the govt is not being nice to the unborn ... and we cheer and call this courage. The irony is so profound as to be incomprehensible.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:57 PM By Rick DeLano
John F. Maguire: It would be a consolation if you were a hundredth as punctilious with regard to your reading of others' posts, as you are in your explications of the minute intricacies of whatever passes for your interpretation of Catholic Teaching.
The prostitution of which I spoke was explicitly directed toward the violation of rubrics prohibiting a layman to deliver a eulogy from the pulpit. There are two specific violations of the rubrics of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal involved. Let's see if you can look them up and cite them for us.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:03 PM By Mark from PA
"Ted Kennedy was a loser and the only thing he gained was hell." My goodness, what would you say to the priest that was at his bedside and gave him last rights as he was passing. Do you doubt the mercy of Our Lord to save Senator Kennedy's soul? Do some of you here have insight into who goes to hell? I find this very presumptious. Your response of 1:42 PM was excellent, John F. Maguire. Some of you would tell Cardinal O'Malley that he has no right to officiate at the funerals of sinners? I never knew that one had to be without sin to have a Catholic funeral. Yes, Senator Kennedy had his failings and yes he was a sinner but he also did much good in his life. May he rest in peace.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:06 PM By Brian
So Ken fisher . You say "Ted treated me like dirt. I" gee , you never mentioned that when you made it to the Boston newspapers titlting at windmills about Ted , other Mass pols and KofC. What a surprise . You had hidden agenda and a grudge all these years later. I guess Let go and let God doesn't do it for you.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:34 PM By Angelo
By oneofthesheep, what you say about Gods Mercy holds True. It is my hope that Ted Kennedy accepted Gods Mercy.
But lets not forget that he committed heinous crimes against God and Man. The Catholic Church's Canon law is very specific! Anyone who is a public sinner that has caused scandal to the faithful, is to be denied a Catholic funeral. The purpose of this Church law is in order not to cause scandal to the faithful. By the change in Sundays prayer of the faithful, Catholic Church leaders are only making the scandal even worse. I hope the Church takes action against those who allowed him a Catholic Funeral. If I myself did'nt know any better, I would think that abortion is not that serious after all. Imagine those who don't know better, are most likely thinking that already. Thus placing obstacles to Gods Ocean of Mercy.
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Posted Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:24 PM By JLS
Let me use the metaphor used by Jesus, namely the dunghill. Ted Kennedy, regardless of all the superficial ceremony, now resides on the dunghill outside the City of God. But not to worry, because many there are in the Church money stream who will set up camp there and continue to siphon off that govt money flow. And when the faithful ask them why they don't use some of it for saving the unborn from abortion, they will hold up a chart that shows that indeed a part of the flow is used to save the unborn ... but when asked to see the chart showing the number of saved unborn, they won't be able to find it. Why? Because not much paper is required to show a drop in the bucket.
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Posted Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:13 AM By Bob
I find it odd that so many are so quick to judge others. That is not the Catholic way or God's way. Judge not, less you be jusdged sound familiar?
Ted Kennedy had his faults and some misdirection in his faith. He was, however, a significant person in the his tory of this country. He is responsible for over 300 pieces of legislation directed at health care, immigration, civil rights, and on and on. These were not marginal issues. He was a significan leader of the country. He was Catholic and therefore deserving of a Mass, celebrating his life and his new presence with God in heaven. By the way, we don't call it a funeral any moe. We switched from black vestments to white many decades ago. The priest who led the mass did it with upmost dignity. His personal Pastor was very pastorall in his remarks. The Cardinal commited his soul to the Lord. That is what pastoral priest do. They do not judge. They do not condem, they do not rail. The comfort the afflicted, they show mercy for the departed and bring grace to the family. We could us a little of that on this site don't you think?
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Posted Sunday, August 30, 2009 10:17 AM By Bob
It would be good for all of us to read the words of the Holy Father to Ted Kennedy. Like a true pastor he hoped for accension into heaven to be witht the Lord. There was not one hate word, not one judgement, but a true offer of prayer. The Mass of Resurection is the perfect Catholic response to those who have died. I'm sure that his locat pastor conducted the viaticom liturgy at his bead side and gave him communion to sustain him on his journey. That is the Catholic way.
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Posted Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:44 AM By JOhn Zakharia
It is clear as day. Plain and simple. Senator Kennedy has caused severe damage to the dignity of life.
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Posted Monday, August 31, 2009 1:49 AM By Angelo
By Bob, You would probably judge Our Lord Jesus Christ for condemning public sinners to their face. While your at it, why don't you sing of Adolph Hitler's virtues. Or of Bin Laden's good deeds and his hopes of ascencion into Heaven.
Judging others, by condemning their horrific crimes against
humanity, for the sake of the good of souls is pleasing to God. God has warned us in Scripture. "If you do not condemn the evil of a sinful Man, you will receive the same punishment as He." The Spiritual Director of the Papal Household warned recently, "Beware of false Charity, it may not be Charity at all, but cowardice."
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Posted Monday, August 31, 2009 3:35 PM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Angelo: You should retract your ill-considered rejection of Bob's -- perfectly Catholic -- understanding of
the Mass of the Resurrection. To refer to this Mass as an instance of "false charity" constitutes a serious misunderstanding of the theology and circumstances of
Senator Edward Kennedy's funeral Mass, if not a serious misunderstanding of the Mass itself.
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Posted Monday, August 31, 2009 7:14 PM By John F. Maguire
Rick DeLano, your post at CCD Aug. 29:11:01 AM is no mere rubrical objection to lay eulogies; it is an expression of what I have called on this website "absolute hostility" to President Obama, which is a bad thing, in contradistinction to the normative opposition to President Obama on account of his abortocratic policies, which opposition is a good thing. The cause of Catholicity and the right of preborn infants to life is served by this, and just this, normative opposition to President Obama on account of his abortocratic policies; it is not served by an absolute hostility to President Obama as a person and as the President of the United States.
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Posted Monday, August 31, 2009 9:56 PM By JLS
One of the things I find that cradle Catholics often overlook is the teaching of Jesus, which informs us that to those who have been given much, much shall be required; and to those who have been given little, then little shall be required. Any cradle Catholic has been endowed with priceless treasure compared to those such as Bin Laden who was not so endowed. Teddy boy was given Baptism and Sacraments, and had ears to hear the Gospel at Mass; compare him to another mass murderer, namely Bin Laden, who had none of this given to him: now who would likely be required to give a great deal, and who not so much? So, as anyone can see, Angelo is onto something important. Maybe it ticked off Maguire because of its "proportionate reasoning", which does indeed apply to the comparison between teddy and Bin L.: Again, Bin L was given nothing compared to the Heavenly treasure given to teddy -- teddy contributed to murder of over 20 million babies; Bin L presided over the murder of 3-4 thousand adults. I'd say Bin L will give teddy the boot and watch him drop down the infinitely deep chute to the lower depths of Hell. But, hey, that is because we're comparing murderers: Now what about comparing damage to ideals? teddy sacrificed tens of millions of souls to his ideals, and Bin L sacrificed a few thousands to his: Seems to me that teddy boy takes it big time compared to Bin L.
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Posted Monday, August 31, 2009 9:58 PM By JLS
Maguire, the hostility is Obama seeking to dominate the Churdh, as he has successfully dominated at least one cardinal and some bishops. Such prelates have not a single excuse at all ... they bought the farm.
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Posted Monday, August 31, 2009 11:49 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Brian,
I pointed out what Ted Kennedy did to me even though I had organized the whole 23rd Congressional District in a Youth Rally for his brother to point out how cold and shallow the man really was. Of course a Kennedy lover would see this as a "grudge" but a reasonable person would ask how Kennedy could have treated anyone that way who had organized such a rally for his brother. You apparently like most liberals have little reasoning power.
It has been written by many very knowledgeable priests such as Fr. Euteneuer and others that a small private family funeral would have been appropriate and proper, a public display of the nature that occured in Boston was not appropriate for a public sinner who had never publicly repudiated his "sins that cry out to God for vengeance"!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:59 AM By Angelo
John Maguire "Perfectly Catholic-understanding of the Mass of the Resurrection" ?! There is no such thing as "the Mass of the Resurrection" It is the "Requiem Mass" The liberals invented the former term during the silly season of the church. When it was all about change for the sake of change. The quoting of the Spiritual Director of the Papal Household, was in no way meant for the Holy Mass. What I meant was, stop acting like the crimes against humanity by Ted never happened! The perfect response by the Church would have been to deny him a Catholic funeral. So that the faithful not remain cold about the murder of millions of children.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:16 AM By Ski Ven
Good work guys! You have really exposed Maguire in this thread. His fig leaf language has failed to protect him. JLS, I wish to give you some props for not relying on a spell checker. Your post of 9:56 PM is a gem.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:17 AM By Rick DeLano
John F. Maguire: Your post is remarkable, because it is dishonest. I had not previously personally observed dishonesty in your posts, although a tedious pedantic nit-picking combined with special-pleading had certainly already associated itself with your name in my mind as a "trademark".
But here we have something else.
Barack Hussein Obama, sir, has no right at all to address the Faithful from the pulpit of any Catholic Church during the Holy Mass.
Please read the above sentence five times, slowly, and you will have had an opportunity to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.
Hint: The referenced above sentence is not an opinion.
Here is an opinion: it is an outrage and a scandalous dereliction of duty that Barack Hussein Obama was allowed to flout the sacred liturgy of the Catholic Church in order to eulogize a notorious public sinner, and an implacable enemy of Catholic moral teaching.
Notice that the excoriation above is directed not at the radical pro-abort fanatic Barack Hussein Obama, if you can.
It is directed, as it should be, at the grotesquely derelict prelates responsible for acquiescing in this scandalous outrage.
Hope this helps clarify things for you.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:32 AM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Angelo: You are right -- the phrase "Mass of the Resurrection" is not traditional. "Requiem Mass" is, by contrast, traditional -- and properly specific. ("Mass of Christian Burial", as you know, remains widely used.) I would prefer, then, to say that the phrase "Mass of the Resurrection" is equivocal because what is celebrated at the Requiem Mass is the resurrection of the body at the end of time (CCC #1001), not of course the resurrection of the deceased as such, which resurrection (1) hasn't taken place and (2) is NOT a sign of salvation when it does take place, given that Christ, at that time, comes as Judge of the living and the dead. With these considerations in mind, Angelo, I would say that the phrase "Mass of the Ressurection" is a misnomer for what is indeed, as you say, a Requiem Mass (properly named) rather than say that "there is no such thing as 'the Mass of the Resurection'" tout court. On the other hand, Angelo, I do not read you as denying the reality of the Kennedy funeral Mass as Mass, misnomers notwithstanding. Neither you nor I (I surmise) deny that the phrase "Memorial Mass" references a real Mass despite the equivocality of that phrase. See Ann Pryzbilla, "The Funeral Mass -- a memorial of Christ's death and resurrection," Internet ("The title 'Memorial Mass' is a misnomer because every Mass is a memorial of the Paschal mystery"). The title "Mass of the Resurrection" is a misnomer for the same reason.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:36 AM By brian
Ken Fisher . You say a kennedy lover would see it as agrudge. I disiked Ted kennedy quite a bit. Disageed with over 80% of his views. maybe over 90%. so you are wrong there. You say I am like most Liberals. i'm an independent who votes mostly republication. I voted for whoever was running against Ted in the 5-6 elections that I was a Mass citizen and Ted was on the ballot . So you are wrong on that point also. let's call it a 50 year old resentment , but that is not much different than a grudge. You still came to the Boston media. An area hard hit by clergy abuse with Cardinal at the head. Your cause was nothing compared that and you said there was "nothing you could do about Law's appointment to Rome." You should of stayed out of Boston but that resentment/grudge obviouly was still eating at you. You should absolutely stop guessing at my political views.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:29 PM By John F. Maguire
Hold your horses, Rick DeLano. It is honest readings of posts and even, as best as they can be discerned, honest intentions that are needed here. You claim that President Obama has "no right to address the faithful from the pulpit of any Catholic Church during Holy Mass." Your claim is perfectly correct -- so I'll waive off all those extra times you want me to re-read this claim that you've -- rightly --proffered. Still, I never claimed that President Obama or for that matter any non-cleric has a right to access the pulpit of a Catholic Church. The real issue is to be found elsewhere. Besides rights, there is reglementation. Here the Kennedy family sought LEAVE to have a non-cleric speak and that leave was granted, that is, granted as a reglementary matter, not as a right. Was Cardinal O'Malley free to respond to the Kennedy family requests in this way? That, as I see it, is the issue. From within this perspective, Rick, the burden of proof is on you to make out the case that a "dereliction of duty" was involved in Cardinal O'Malley's
response, bearing in mind that a right on the part of layman to access to pulpit simply does not exist but also bearing in mind that Cardinal O'Malley retains reglementary prerogatives in this matter.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 3:19 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
brian,
Concerning your statement that you only supported Ted Kennedy 20% of the time, I can only take your word for that.
Where are you getting " You still came to the Boston media. An area hard hit by clergy abuse with Cardinal at the head. Your cause was nothing compared that and you said there was "nothing you could do about Law's appointment to Rome". Please state you sources. However; I do say that there was nothing I could do about Law's appointment to Rome except to oppose it which I did.
What may have been posted under my name and Organization in Boston was written by one of our members in Massachussetts, and I stand behind that writing when it is taken in proper context.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 3:46 PM By Mark from PA
I was never a big fan of Ted Kennedy, but did watch much of his funeral and was touched by the outpouring of love for the man. It brought back to me how much pain and loss he faced in his life. I wasn't aware of some of the good that he had done. Listening to hateful comments against him actually makes me more open to appreciating the good that he did in his life.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 3:55 PM By JLS
brian, you few posts reveal errors in your faith, which in turn skew your so called "independent" politics. When, eg, you toss the old "Let go and let God" softball at Ken, you use an errant concept. Why? Because God works through His faithful. Ken is doing the work God assigns him, as best he can. As for Boston, it looks as though too many old fish have piled up there and have been rotting for decades and raising foul fumes into the air making people sick in many other places. Boston has given away any Catholic dignity as a city. Ken has been politically fighting communism and liberal Catholicism that feeds it for decades. Apparently from your posts you make it look like you're one of those fish, not quite dead, but wriggling around in a political huff.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 6:59 PM By Brian
ken , you incorrectly called me a liberal and a Kennedy guy. When I point that out you say you can only take my word. Do you have doubts and think I'm really a Kennedy guy ? I have said nothing anywhere in here that is Pro Ted. You made a poor assumption and you know that saying about when you assume. My source of the statement is you . This is your exact statement :"As far as Cardinal Law is concerned, we believe that it was wrong for Rome to give him cover, but at this time there is not really much we can do about his case." Have you done anything to continue to speak out against Law or it is over for you and liberal pols in the KofC a much bigger issue for you ?
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:00 PM By Angelo
John F. Maguire, The Church refers to Masses said as, Solemnities, Feasts, Memorials, Requiem, Conventual, Votive, Papal, High, Low ect... In my opinion "Memorial"
In the Pashal Mystery is a misnomer. The Mass is in fact the actual Paschal Mystery. The re-enactment of the Crucifixion, God offering himself to God as a Sacrifice in atonement for our sins. If we went back in time and stood at the foot of the Cross, or if we attended Mass right now, It in fact would be being in the same place at the same time. The only difference. Attending Mass right now, the Mass would be in an unbloody manner. Ted attended the Paschal Mystery many times, sadly He was one of the scoffers of Christ. Demanding the death of Christ 49,000,000 times. By
demanding the death of his Brothers and Sisters in the wombs of their mothers. I do hope He accepted Gods Mercy.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:15 PM By Brian
jls. Ken or someone representing him came to the Boston media about liberal pols and the KofC. He had this resentment to Kennedy for 50 years which as I stated was a hidden agenda. There were much bigger issue in Boston. You stated cardinals covering up Clergy abuse will go to hell. bernie was part of the coverup. You did not name names but Law would be one you yourself condemed to hell. Since he was promoted to Rome , I consider that a bigger issue then Ken's but he does not fight that fight. You did not leave any Pope blameless either. One Pope promoted Bernie. Another one keeps him in place. What do you think of that ?ken continues his grudge with a dead guy. beats me what the errors in my faith or errant concept your talking about. You don't like my opinion . Oh well. I disagree with Ken's work because it does not add up His KofC rants don't belong the the top 1000 issues. getting Law removed for him causing untold numbers of children to be molested is a top issue to me. For some reason , no big deal to many who claim rightousness in here. Go figure.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:46 PM By Mark from PA
Well, Kenneth, I am glad that you opposed Cardinal Law's appointment to Rome. In my opinion, I think he should have been sent to the poorest part of Appalachia to evangelize. Why should he be sitting in the lap of luxury in Rome while those harmed by his uncaring ineptitude are still suffering in Boston? It still angers me that innocent young people were threatened if they told about what was done to them. Law wanted to protect the reputations of those so-called priests. Sorry for being harsh here but it still upsets me.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:24 PM By JLS
Maguire, as you say, some of the kennedy clan requested leave to invite an anti-Christ to the funeral, and it was accepted ... which obviously means that someone else took leave of their responsibilities ... which on this scale is so grave a matter that it boggles the mind that somebody would do such a bad thing.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:04 PM By JLS
Brian, invited I went to a KoC breakfast with a member who is a long time friend. The topic of abortion came up. About half of them had no problem with it. I find better morals outside the Church not infrequently.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:06 PM By JLS
Angelo, dude !!! You are really revealing some great stuff here ... keep it going. It is what I keep laying on Maguire, that he knows all sorts of stuff but will not make the necessary decision. Yes, I'm being vague intentionally.
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Posted Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:11 PM By Rick DeLano
Well now John F. Maguire, that is more like it.
We now see that on the one hand we have Rick, who states that the the General Instruction *explicitly forbids* eulogies.
We have John saying its all up to the ordinary.
We have Rick saying that the General Instruction *explicitly forbids* laymen from addressing the congregation from the pulpit. I add that Barack Hussein Obama is not even a layman, He is not even a Catholic. He is a public, powerful enemy of Catholic teaching on the sanctity of human life, and has proposed to enact laws which would make faithful Catholics subject to taxation for the purposes of committing the murder of unborn children.
We have John saying its all up to the ordinary.
I think this very fairly and clearly sums up the house divided that is the Catholic Church today.
The faithful are being hornswoggled by lawyers, both licensed and self-appointed, certain of whom expend much energy advancing hysterically incompetent apologias for the outrages of reprobate prelates. These latter consistently arrogate to themselves the right to deform and disgrace our liturgies according to their personal whim.
The rest of us are charged with resolute resistance to both the outrageous dereliction of the prelates who disdain our liturgy and cast in the dust at the feet of infidels and public sinners, and cordial demolition of the bomfoggery advanced in their defense by esquires of the Maguire persuasion.
And make no mistake, folks. We need to resist, each and every time our Faith and Liturgy are prostituted for the benefit of the enemies of Christ and the friends of the abortocrats.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:14 AM By Bob
A couple of ideas to keep in mind. This is a roman church; Italian. They have a different idea of management than we do. If someone is a problem, they promote them to a "safe" position. That was the case with Cardinal Law and Cardinal Burke. Don't think of their new jobs as promotions, but rather being put out to pasture where they can't cause too many problems. The same just happened to the Bishop of Scranton. On another note, I think it over stretching to keep using the 49,000,000 number with Teddy Kennedy. Yes, he voted for a women's right to choose, but it is the women themselves who made the choice. Voting for "choice" was a mistake, as were a few other of his votes, but that does not negate the other good work that he did to improve people"s lives. I'm not a fan of his, but I don't think he is a devil, either. As the liturgy says: Eternal rest grant unto him and let your perpetual light shine on him (sic). The assumption of the Mass of Ressurection is the forgiveness of sin.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:44 AM By JLS
Bob, teddy kennedy was evil. He could have stopped abortion in its tracks by helping confirm Judge Bork. Bork would have been the fifth anti-Roe vote on the Supreme Court. That makes teddyboy the chief abortionist in this nation. And your feeble attempt at proportionate reasoning which pits abortion against any and all other things has been trashed by this Pope and all popes who have spoken on the topic. But then why worry you swooning head over the matter, when you can easily find out directly from Christ the Judge in the not too distant future?
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:59 AM By JLS
Also, Bob, since you brought up the topic of ethnicity, let's go a few rounds on it. Myself, being neither of Irish, Spanish or Italian background (well, only an eighth Gaelic at most), perhaps I can comment somewhat from a different perspective. What can be noticed is that most of the dissident bishops in America have Irish names. Now to note, it is likely that most Irish American Catholics are prolife and confess the throne of Peter ... but nevertheless one can see the preponderance of Irish names of those bishops who worship their ethnic roots rather than Jesus. What they are doing instead of changing night into day is changing monotheism back into paganism by taking the Word out of the Church under their rule. These goats may talk up the "Mass of the Resurrection", but they are still goats and they are leading the sheep into strange pasteurs. And interesting that you claim that Abp Burke has been relieved of his authority, especially since he was one of the first big name bishops to reveal what a sham it was at Notre Dame Univ to exhalt the abortion fuehrer Obama to the papacy of America. Shrewd of you to observe and trash talk the fact of the Throne of Peter being in Italy: But did you stop to consider that God put it there? No, for you to bring God to your defense would not work too well, so you hope you can fleece some readers by bypassing the fact. Bob, you condemn yourself in your own words by trashing the Church built by God.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:22 AM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Rick DeLano: You write: "We have John saying that it is all up to the ordinary" -- all up to the local bishop --
whether a non-cleric can have leave to access the pulpit at Mass. ~ Not exactly, Rick -- the phrase "all up to the ordinary" suggests that I believe that the local ordinary has absolute discretion in this matter when, in point of fact, I argued the contrary. I argued that the discretion of the local ordinary is a "reglementary" discretion. By "reglementary" discretion is meant: rule-respectful discretion, that is, a discretion that is accomodative under special circumstances, per episcopal prerogative. ~ If, Rick, you regard it as abusive that in large numbers of Catholic funerals in the United States, lay access to the pulpit is commonplace, there is, I agree, a pastoral case to be made for that position. If you regard it as an abuse that two members of Senator Kennedy's family gave eulogies at his funeral, you'd best make that case across the whole expanse of Catholic funerals in the United States. If you regard it as an abuse that a former Senatorial colleague of Kennedy's -- now holding the Office of the Presidency -- gave a eulogy for his former colleague, you'd best do that as a sub-case of your general case. But as I've pointed out, your objection is not merely rubrical. It turns on an ABSOLUTE hostility to this President (Obama) and this Cardinal (O'Malley). For example, to use -- and in the Calvinist sense too -- the term "reprobate" in reference to Catholic prelates such is Cardinal O'Malley is beyond the pale, even were your critique of Cardinal O'Malley correct. ~ Moreover, your post lacks an acknowledgment that there is always and inevitably ENMITY between the friends of preborn infants and abortocrats of whatever stripe. This enmity, however, is not absolute hostility -- absolute hostility runs contrary to the evangelical law. (By the way, speaking of law, since I am not an attorney, I am not an esquire.)
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:34 AM By JLS
The reminder of what teddy boy is all about: 23 And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. -- Apocalypse 17
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:29 AM By JLS
Glaring, Bob, glaring: You admit it is a "roman" Church, and indeed it is. But then you call it an Italian church, which it is not at all. The "roman" Church is called "Catholic" because it includes all ethnicities. It is ruled by none, but by Jesus Christ ... at least the is what the Church believes and teaches. Since you confess a belief that is different from what the Church believes, then obviously you are not Catholic. Further, and even worse, you presume the Gospel concerns only the forgiveness of sin, yet it concerns much more than this. It concerns how to enter into such a state of being ... this is not so wishy washy as you hold forth.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 1:29 PM By Rick DeLano
Well, John F. Maguire, as I said, there are "lawyers" of the licensed as well as the self-appointed variety, and the "esquire" was intended, as it was apparently received, in a satirical sense. Good. We achieve more clarity. Rick states that the surrender of the Mass to a eulogy by a non-Catholic, a public enemy of Catholic core teaching on life, is an abomination. Maguire suggests it is instead a "rule respectful discretion under special circumstances". Precisely as I said earlier, we see the two faces of the Catholic Church in America clearly differentiated. We must, as the laity, simply stand up and resist the Maguires to their faces, since they will forever appease, apologize for, and dance upon the heads of their pathetically compromised moral pins, forever quibbling, special-pleading, and bomfogging until they, as is their hope, wear down the unwary who suppose that dialogue is the proper response to casuistical hand-waving. Folks, we have gotten well past the point where we need to dialogue on the question of whether the atrocity in Boston, where a notorious public sinner was eulogized from the pulpit by an explicit enemy of Catholic moral teaching, was a case of "rule-respectful discretion...under special circumstances". It is true that for some, words can have any meaning whatever that might be useful in accommodating whatever atrocity needs to be apologized for. It is quite clear to me, on the other hand, that the catastrophe which has befallen Catholic Faith and unity in this disastrous era of accommodation and cowardice, requires resolute resistance, on the part of all the faithful, both to gross dereliction on the part of prelates, as in the disgraceful spectacle in Boston, as well as to the laughable fig-leafs proposed by apologists such as John F. Maguire. Boston was a disgrace of even greater magnitude than Notre Shame, and the American bishops not only need our redoubled prayers, they need to hear from us.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:15 PM By Brian
jls says : As for Boston, it looks as though too many old fish have piled up there and have been rotting for decades and raising foul fumes into the air making people sick in many other places. Boston has given away any Catholic dignity as a city.
Great. many good catholics in Boston were deceived and abuse by the catholic church and you blame the people of Boston ? That is pathetic. That is like blaming the jews for the holocaust. Attack me all you want A few days ago you condemed to Bernie to hell , but now blame the people of Boston. You should apologize to very man , woman and child that were raped and sodomized by priests in the Boston area while Bernie worked on hiding them. Catholic dignity. What an oxymoron.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:29 PM By Mark from PA
Bob, say a prayer for all of us in Scranton. It is sad, because many schools and churches have been closed and sadly many people have been lost to the faith. I feel bad that some people feel that they have been shown the door. Because of a declining population, closing some of the churches was a tough choice. Some say that our bishop was sent here to close churches and schools. I think the bishop is a good man but not a "people person." I do think he had courage in stepping down. I hope that he can find healing. I also hope that we get a new bishop who can bring back people to the Church. We need a bishop who can reach out to everyone.
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 8:55 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Brian,
I have been around politics, politicians, and wantabes too long to not tell you "yes I do question your alleged opposition to Kennedy" Your own statements lead me to that conclusion. I now am pretty sure that you are the guy that called me and went on and on about Cardinal Law, you wouldn't accept the fact then that I opposed and even wrote against Law's appointment and you obviously don't now, that is your problem, not mine!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:12 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Brian,
Talk about holding a grudge, your last post was a grudge personified. Look in a mirror sometime!
By the way, do you even know the difference in pointing out facts, and holding a grudge?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:29 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
What many of you are missing are the teachings of St. Paul, and many other Doctors and Saints of the Church, and they are that howsoever you shall live pretty much determines how you shall die!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:04 PM By JLS
Yes, Brian. What were those deceived people doing? If they were being faithful, then there is no reason they would become deceived. Or do you not believe in the power and authority of faith? Consult the Gospel, especially about faith as a mustard seed, and take it from there. Brian, you need to stop blaming others for your failures. You simply have to start where you find Jesus. Jesus will never fail you ... that is why I have no problem at all criticizing people who leaders consistently betray them ... why do they place blind and stupid faith in evil men and women? Come to your senses, Brian. God is not a sentiment. If you trust in God, you will not be betrayed; you were betrayed because you placed your trust elsewhere ... in some phony. Seek Christ, Brian; He is the answer, the One you need. All those Bostonians who got screwed over could have responded to Christ instead of their abusers. No doubt a big problem was superficiality, Catholic in name only ... Now how do you think God is going to treat a community which has replaced Him with members of the clergy? You guessed it, Brian; history shows you. Now pick up your Cross and follow Jesus and stop belly aching.
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Posted Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:34 PM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Rick DeLano: My revision of your misreading of my position on the reglementary prerogative of Cardinal O'Malley is a substantial one, not a quibble. Moreover, since CASUISTRY is an essential dimension of moral theology by way of application (as the word suggests, casuistry is the study of cases in their concrete specificity), I do not accept your dismissive use of the term. For a defense of casuistry, see Timothy Brosnahan, "Casuistry," _The Catholic Encyclopedia_ (New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1908) ("Few acquire [a moral education] without the aid of casuistry. [...] Historically considered, casuistry in some form or another is as old as human conscience. Wherever civilization has developed along moral lines, there the casuist has been for the interior forum of conscience what the judge is for the external form of civil legality").
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Posted Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:33 PM By Brian
ken. I have emailed you. never called you. did you mean email when you wrote call ? If someone called you , it was not me. Again , you only assumed I was a kennedy supporter. I made a connection between your 50 year ago resentment and you/someone represnting you in the Boston media. Your resentment came to light in posting about Kennedy. I held sign for Romeny in his campaign against kennedy. try as you may to say my criticism of you is becuase I'm a kennedy guy , but it just does not wash. I am very much against Bernie. On and on you say ? I guess when you go "on and on" it's all good.
I know what your grudge is ken. What's my grudge that you refer to ? If you mean a grudge against the chucrh for promoting bernie I plead guilty , but everyone should hold a grudge about that.
Jls. i have no idea what these statement means. 1 )What were those deceived people doing? 2) If they were being faithful, then there is no reason they would become deceived. 3 ) Or do you not believe in the power and authority of faith? That may be an easy one for you to make some comment about my inteligence , Go ahead. but please tell what you are refering to in each of those 3 questions/statements. leave out the seek God and read the bible. I find them to be lines you and ken hide behind. yes , I know. How awful , but please tell me what those statements mean. You also continue to turn your nose up to good people in Boston. They will rightfully continue to fight about cardinals and bishops that are going to hell , but in the meantime , hold high office in the church.
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Posted Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:34 PM By Rick DeLano
Well, John, if the shoe fits.............
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Posted Friday, September 04, 2009 12:58 PM By Angelo
Kenneth M. Fisher, "howsoever you shall live pretty much determines how you shall die!" This is a warning for all of us.
Fr. Basil Cole giving a parish mission in our parish in the 80s. Said to us, "As you live so shall you die. If you live rejecting God, you shall die rejecting him. Repent now, go to confession and reform your lives." In Ted kennedy's letter to the Holy Father, He wrote, "I have never failed to believe and respect the fundamental teachings of my faith." To myself I find this statement an indication that He remained obstinate in his rejection of the right to life for the unborn. Some will say, that Ted had good intentions according to his conscience. But Fr. Cole answered that too, "Don't tell me about good intentions, hell is populated with people who had good intentions." There is no comprimising our obedience to God through His Church. What I just wrote scares the Gehenna out of me!
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Posted Friday, September 04, 2009 4:04 PM By JLS
In that teedy keenedy letter to the Pope, where he says he's always lived Catholicism to the full ... and obviously he has not ... reminds me of the story in Acts where this old man comes and gives money to St Peter and also tells a lie, and he instantly dies, and then his wife comes and does the same number and she too instantly keels over and dies. Is God working through the New Testament ... through the Popes ... in this merciless lack of charity manner ... even when there is no witness to be scandalized ??? That passage must have been put in the NT by mistake, right? Well, at least it didn't divide the Church ... what a relief!
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Posted Friday, September 04, 2009 6:02 PM By JLS
Brian, why do you cop out by taking a persecution defense?
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Posted Friday, September 04, 2009 11:48 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Brian,
Once again you confuse "holding a grudge" with stating facts.
As soon as I heard of Kennedy's death I prayed for his repentance. I did so with the full knowledge that no prayers are wasted.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Wednesday, September 09, 2009 7:55 PM By John F. Maguire
In reply to Rick DeLano: Sky Ven, I notice, is pleased that you have not retracted your -- as you call it -- "excoriation"; your excoriation, that is, of "grotesquely derelict prelates" responsible for "acquiescing" in the scandalous act of affording Ted Kennedy a public funeral Mass. Specifically, Mr. DeLano, you have yet to retract your claim that Sean Cardinal O'Malley "prostituted" the liturgy of the Church. The reason why I called upon you to retract your claim of "prostitution" in the first place is that I regard this claim as an incitation in the sense referred to by Canon 1373 of the Code of Canon Law: "A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against...an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry" is subject to interdiction and other remedial actions. Mr. DeLano, Cardinal O'Malley, as Cardinal-Archbishop of Boston, did indeed possess reglementary discretion to proceed in the Kennedy matter in the way that he did proceed in the Kennedy matter -- per his "ecclesiastical ministry" per Canon 1373.
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Posted Thursday, September 10, 2009 5:42 AM By brian
ken . In the end you focused more on an incorrect assumption that I'm a kennedy guy. Both you and jls pay lip service to all the cardinals and bishops that helped the molestors. Commenst like I spoke out against Law's appointment and saying they all going to hell are lackly in action compared to other fights you take on. Obviously Law is my number one target. You have spend much more energy on Politician in the KofC that are pro choice then getting rid of those who coveredup the abuse.
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Posted Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:44 PM By Mark from PA
Brian, I think the hierarchy is just wishing and hoping that the laity forgets about those that covered up the abuse. It would take divine intervention to get rid of those bishops because the Vatican will protect them as long as they are loyal to Rome. Cardinal Law is just one example.
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