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Published: December 29, 2008
"You can church-shop and find a local parish that is accepting”
Membership in homosexual-oriented churches nosedives as mainline religions – including Catholicism – become more ‘gay-friendly’
Membership in homosexual-oriented churches founded as an alternative to traditional religions is dwindling as mainline churches become more “gay friendly,” the Riverside Press-Enterprise reports. As one example, the newspaper noted that membership in the homosexual Catholic organization Dignity has declined by nearly half over the last 10 years.
Press-Enterprise reporter David Olson interviewed Mark Shirilau, who calls himself the archbishop of the Ecumenical Catholic Church, which he founded in 1987 “to provide a religious home for gays and lesbians.” The Ecumenical Catholic Church “adheres to the majority of Roman Catholic teachings and uses a blend of Roman Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran liturgy,” according to the newspaper.
Shirilau, who resides in Riverside, told the Press-Enterprise that even he no longer worships in the Ecumenical Catholic Church, preferring instead to attend an Episcopal church.
 “In 1995, the Ecumenical Catholic Church had about 2,000 members in 25 churches,” said the Press-Enterprise. “Now, there are about 500 members in 20 churches, some of which have only a few members and meet once a month.”
Even though the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful and is opposed to same-sex marriages, Shirilau said homosexuals can now easily find a friendly Catholic church to call home. Shirilau told the Press-Enterprise that “what's important to many gays and lesbians is how individual parishes treat them, not what a Vatican document says about homosexuality. And an increasing number of priests are accepting toward their gay congregants.”
"There's less need (for the Ecumenical Catholic Church)," Shirilau told the newspaper. "You can church-shop and find at a local level a parish that is accepting." In a few areas of the U.S. some churches continue to do well – conservative places like Tulsa, Oklahoma, where the Ecumenical Catholic Church has its largest congregation (about 150 attend weekly services), Shirilau told the Press-Enterprise.
The Ecumenical Catholic Church has no parishes in Southern California because “there are more options” for Catholics in the region, the newspaper reported.
Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA, told the Press-Enterprise that fewer people are attending the group’s weekly Masses across the country “because of increasing acceptance from liberal Protestant denominations.” DignityUSA’s mission statement says the group “envisions and works for a time when Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Catholics are affirmed and experience dignity through the integration of their spirituality with their sexuality, and as beloved persons of God participate fully in all aspects of life within the Church and Society.”
But, Duddy-Burke admitted, some who opt for non-Catholic churches find themselves unable to completely break their ties with the Church. "Catholicism is so deep for most of us," she told the Press-Enterprise. "You can walk out of the doors of the church, but the deep connection to Catholic spirituality, to the sacraments, to Catholic culture, that doesn't go away."
The largest homosexual-oriented church in the country – the Metropolitan Community Church – has grown by 2 percent since 2003, to about 18,000 members, the church’s executive director, the Rev. Cindi Love, told the newspaper. She attributed some of that growth to “increasing numbers of straight members, especially in conservative areas where there are few liberal religious options. There are also more children than in the past, many of them adopted by same-sex couples.”
Nori Kieran-Meredith, pastor of Heartland Metropolitan Community Church in San Bernardino, told the Press-Enterprise she is “a practicing Catholic” looking forward to a day when there is no longer a need for homosexual-oriented churches. "I always wanted to go out of business," she told the newspaper. "I want MCC to be just a social club. I want to create an ideal world where people don't segregate themselves."
Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 1:41 AM By Eileen
It is false and misleading for Mark Shirilau to continue to belittle the Magisterial Truths of the Catholic Church that are necessary to gain Salvation. This is why his personal church that did it his way failed. The self appointed Jolly Ollie approach to faith, where there is no such thing as sin, do whatever pleases you and don't worry about God, He just wants you to be friendly, not holy, is wrong. We are all sinners in need of refuge. God wants us to be holy. That refuge of holiness is the loving guidance contained in the fullness of the truth, not partial or selective cafeteria style truths of picking some truths and rejecting others. Christ said, "You are with Me or Against Me". The let's just be friendly approach is why they left. They are searching for the complete truth. Teach the "fullness of the truth" to all of us sinners in a friendly way. Welcome home to the Catholic Church. Please purchase a Catholic Catechism just in case you meet confused teachers who also don't know what the Catechism teaches. Then, you can be the self appointed friendly Catholic parishioner that says, "Oh yes, I do want to be friendly but the Catechism says "this" and "that" is not what you just taught". Just stay friendly while you say it. Help the teacher, only if necessary to "Be with Christ and not Against Him" . Remember to stay friendly!
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 4:29 AM By Jon
"The Ecumenical Catholic Church has no parishes in Southern California because there are more options for Catholics in the region" - Like the Rog Majal?
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:49 AM By Fr. Richard Perozich
Most Catholic Churches welcome everyone to conversion, especially and including men who have had sex with men (MSM) and women who have sex with women (WSW) to chastity and real inner peace. Because the Church cannot accept same sex acts as normal and good in any type of relationship, she is attacked with the same tired manipulations of homophobic, intolerant, closed minded, rigid, gay bashing. So was Jesus attacked when his message was not what the people wanted to hear. He came to offer peace through conversion. Peace comes in part through chastity. The Catholic Church offers that to all men and women.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:59 AM By St. Christopher
This is certainly true, and certainly awful, news. The increasingly "gay accepting" priests do homosexual people no favors. What they do sexually is sinful, a fact which is white-washed over by such priests (and it is clear that by "accepting" homosexuals, the true meaning is accepting their sexual practices -- homosexually oriented people have always been accepted into the Catholic Church). Good luck, folks, it seems that all will need it as much of the Catholic Church moves away from becoming a beacon toward salvation and towards becoming a "friendly" place, kind of like the bar in "Cheers" where there is no judgment, because their is [most likely] no mention of sin, because "God loves and accepts us all" blah, blah, blah. Seek out a place to obtain the sacraments where there is truth and no compromise with evil. It is too bad that practicing homosexuals do not get this type of message.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:02 AM By Tom Byrne
That "bishop" looks like an extra in cheap production of a Victor Herbert operetta. "Liberal" church memberships have been nose-diving since the late '60s. Without something to believe in, church membership has no purpose.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:37 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
Here in Charleston, West Virginia, we have FOUR churches that are very supportive of their Gay congregants. Of course, there is the Appalachian Metropolitant Community Church (which historically has always be predominantly Gay) and local Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship (the Unitarians have always been very supportive) ... but there is also St. John's Episcopal Church and Asbury United Methodist Church. All of these churches are THRIVING, thank you very much.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:09 AM By Life Lady
People may not understand the Church's teaching for single Catholics. They are the same as any other person. All single Catholics, regardless of their propensity toward whatever sexual act, ALL single (not married in the Church, husband and wife, man and woman) all Catholics are admonished to live in purity, abstaining from ALL sexual activity as a single person, within the Catholic faith. Any person struggling with same-sex attraction and who lives in purity of body, mind and spirit, abstaining from the compulsion of sexual activity, and that abstention includes heterosexuals and heterosexual activity, those single persons are more than welcome in the Church. If you live in sin, no matter what your sexual preference, you put yourself outside the Church. Liberal or not liberal, the Church is not a democracy. It is a Theocracy. God is the Head of the Church, with the Pope as His representative in teaching of the Faith. If you believe otherwise, and think you can sin in stepping outside the ideal that was ordained from the beginning, you are delusional.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:14 AM By June V
As long as the church refuses to preach from the pulpit on Sunday mornings that the act of homosexuality is a mortal sin and abortion is an abomination in the sight of God, then people will continue to have those who "dress up in the costume" of a bishop/priest and preach error to those sinners. The homosexual is and always will be loved by God, but the sin is not, so, take up your cross, live a celibate life as did Christ and obey the rules.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 10:57 AM By betty
there have always been homosexuals in the Church but in those days we didn't know who was and who wasn't. At least I didn't. There were some people who looked a little different and acted a little different than some of the others but it never crossed my mind that that was what was different about them.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 11:03 AM By Laurette Elsberry
This is a very enlightening article. Knowing what churches in your area are "gay-friendly" can also help you to know that churches to avoid. I also suggest checking out gaychurch.org. The home page will show you that the site lists some 5,100 churches it has determined to be "gay-friendly". Check "Church Directory", then click on the US map. That will bring you to a list of the states. I clicked on California and found about 50 Catholic churches listed. This, of course, does not include those which are "ecumenical" and related. I checked my own area, Sacramento, and saw St. Francis of Assisi Parish there. This was not a surprise. I looked up a bulletin posted on their website, and saw that on December 6 St. Francis posted a notice of a "GLBT (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender) potluck" following the noon Mass. The potluck was offered by the "GLBT Outreach Ministry" and specified that "All are welcome" for "faith, fellowship & food". Great - just want you want for your children or teens - fellowship with transgenders and bisexuals, not to mention your average "gay" or lesbian maybe recruiting new members....... What is also astounding about the list of 674 California "gay-"friendly" churches is the number of mainstream Protestant churches - Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches listed - as was pointed out in the CalCatholic article. It is important that readers find out about the "gay" influence in their local area and contact their bishops to complain. If enough people say "ENOUGH!", maybe we can counter this immoral takeover of our churches.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 11:42 AM By Aaron
As gays have become more accepted by society at large, there is far less need for gay only organizations, including churches. The number of gay bars has plummeted in places like Southern California and Boston. Though the Catholic church maintains its rigid stand that anyone who is single must lead a celibate life, other congregations are more gay friendly. True, it isn't the same as the Catholic church, but at least there is a spiritual connection for gays in the Episcopal church.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 12:24 PM By JLS
Life Lady, yes, the pope is the representative of Christ, but so is everyone else who is baptized. The special position of the pope is that he is Christ on earth, ie "in persona Christi", as is a priest in administering Sacraments. Laity is never "in persona Christi", although the Eucharist unites us with God ... This unity is not a further degree of relationship than junction; for we are not merely joined with God, but in union with Him. Too many folks do not grasp this unity, and imagine themselves as wholly apart from God, even in a state of grace. St Paul calls us "ambassadors of Christ". Jesus gave divine power and authority to St Peter to rule in His place, vicariously ... ie, maybe it could be called the "man" part of the Godman Jesus, but recall that Jesus is not two people, thus being part of Jesus means being fully united with Jesus in both natures of the One Person. This is way beyond being a representative; it is being Jesus. And this is one look at why sinful souls cannot be united with God, as Jesus is and always was sinless ... sin and sinlessness cannot exist together, which is what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is all about -- to absolve us of all our sin, so that we may be united with God. Without this Sacrament it is rare for a person who is only baptized to retain that state of grace.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 1:02 PM By Peter
Great web-site, gaychurch.com. Thanks Laurette. But I'm curious. How does an average "gay" or lesbian recruit new members?
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 1:59 PM By Brett
Wow! I went to that site and found several catholic churches in Orange and San Diego. Holy Family Cathedral, in Orange, home to Bishop Tod Brown and here in San Diego, San Raphael Parish. This is very interesting. My parish didn't make the list but who knows, maybe next week they will be on the list.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 2:33 PM By Tom Byrne
Chuck: Thank you, too, but that's not the broader trend. The Episcopal Church is tearing itself to pieces over "gay" issues here and abroad and so are other denominations, especially in the English-speaking world. Do you think it's mere coincidence that the American dioceses with a pattern of gay-friendly clergy were also those most heavily hit by the priestly abuse scandals? For most people (especially families) gay is not OK and they move away from it.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 3:17 PM By Mark from PA
That is good that they have a list of churches so people know a parish where they will be welcomed. Some people fear being discriminated against so this may be helpful to some.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 3:26 PM By Dan
I am not sure if this observation is related to the theme of the article, but in my 30 years as a Catholic ( well I entered as an adult) I can't recall ever hearing in a homily anything with respect to sexual purity, sexual discipline etc. I wonder if there is a deliberate avoidance of such topics for the purpose of creating a friendly atmosphere not just for the GLBT crowd but for all the parishoners who one way or another ignore the Church's teaching in Humanae Vitae and elsewhere. One gets the distinct impression that major players in the Church here in Los Angeles are embarrassed by traditional morality. Have to think about that one ....
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:20 PM By RR
Mark from PA: "That is good that they have a list of churches so people know a parish where they will be welcomed". Welcomed into what Mark from PA- Mortal sin and near occassions of sin? "Some people fear being discriminated against so this may be helpful to some". To what Mark from PA-Helpful for some to find other gays to accept, condone, and commit mortal sins?
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:38 PM By JLS
Dan, there are priests who teach about sin and salvation ... you have to search for them though. I like to remind others along with myself that Jesus teaches us that not only do we live by bread but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. When all a priest issues at a Mass is the Bread, and omits that which comes from the mouth of God, then where is the life in that parish?
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 8:59 PM By Mark from PA
No one is asking people to commit mortal sins here, RR. Remove the plank from your eyes. I am just talking about churches were people can go to and not fear being hated because of their orientation. People want to go where they will be welcomed, not looked down on by sinners.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 6:32 AM By RR
Mark from PA: It is a mortal sin to have churches that approve and condone active homosexuals. Any church that gives support to ACTIVE homosexuals is mortally sinful. Are you saying it's o.k. for churches to condone and accept homosexual mortal sins? If you think it's o.k. to have churches that support and condone ACTIVE homosexuals, then you are guilty of mortal sin also because it is against Catholic Church teaching to accept and condone homosexual behavior. Also, I may have planks, even Redwood tree trunks in my eye, but I'm not on here trying to convince people that my sins are o.k. and trying to get people to condone or accept them. I also confess and am sorry for my sins and make a firm purpose of ammendment when I go to confession. The homosexuals are like the Energizer Bunny; they keep going and going and going. They don't stop and continue in their unrepented mortal sins and try and force it on people, and if we don't acept their sins we are called hateful. So, stop coming on here and supporting homosexuals sins.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:43 AM By Anita
I wish people would stop referring to homosexuals as "gays". They want to be called gay but look up what the word means and see if it fits. It's like calling abortion "choice" when it is murder. The lefties use language to mislead and take the sting out of the evil they do. Give it a nice sounding name. It's a tactic that works when everyone starts using their terms. Call it what it is and then we are speaking truth. I notice when I call them perverts a lot of people accuse me of hate when I am just being truthful and specific. See how we are brainwashed by them??? Think about it and try using proper terms and see how you are attacked. We can't speak the truth anymore....it is now considered a hate crime. The inversion is complete!
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:58 AM By Viking1
gee are there any incest friedly church's me and my sister are looking to get married
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:33 PM By Mark from PA
I am not supporting any sins here, RR. You are not paying attention. I think hatred is a sin too and I don't support that sin either. Anita, I am sure that you don't call straight people that practice acts of sodomy perverts.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:58 PM By JPeterman
"Ecumenical Catholic Church"? That makes me giggle. And this guy's get up, Halloween was two months ago, somebody should really tell Mr Shirlau this.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 6:16 PM By Paul
Anita, I looked up the word "gay" and it fits homosexual persons well. It says, "a: homosexual b: of, relating to, or used by homosexuals." It even describes the many who are "happily excited" and "bright, lively" and "given to social pleasures". May you be gay as well.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:40 PM By MarkF
Hey, before we get all blustering again, we might want to consider that this clown was just making up an excuse as to why his little group is dwindling. Maybe this is his own whitewash to explain away it's failing. I do not think there are many Catholic parishes that openly preach the acceptance of homosexual acts. But most do not seem to be at all concerned with the development of the person's conscience. From my highly subjective view point, it seems to me that it's everyman for himself. We are welcome to come to Mass and take communion even if we're in mortal sin, and no one's going to to stop us. If we're in dissent with the Church and accept birth control and the rest, then that's our matter and we won't hear much about it in the sermons. So it's not really that there are gay friendly parishes. It's just that for the most part, you're on your own, and unless you make waves any person can come into our parishes.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:01 PM By JLS
PA, from all your posts I'd say the only sin you recognize is hatred, which is not even found in the Ten Commandments.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:33 PM By Brett
It's one thing to be friendly and show kindness and charity to all, but come on! B-B-Qs, potlucks, dances and other church sponsored events for homosexuals and transgender? I just don't get it. It makes me sad. What has happened to the Church!
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:03 PM By JLS
One way to try and convey the Gospel to homosexuals would be to put on events for them. There is a reputable organization called Courage, and it wouldn't keep existing if it were not for a stream of repentant homosexualists. Maybe these parish sponsored shindigs serve to steer an occasional seeker of God to the right place.
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:14 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Dan,
I can assure you that if you attended a Traditional Parish, you would hear about the sins of the flesh quite often!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:25 AM By Mark from PA
8th Commandment. What about bearing false witness against your neighbor? Calling people you hate perverts because of sins you think they may have committed qualifies in my mind.If you want JLS, I can recite the 10 Commandments from memory. We spent 2 whole years in school (4th and 8th grade) studying the 10 Commandments. I learned from the Baltimore Catechism. Did you learn this in school?
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:18 AM By RR
Mark from PA: 6th and 9th Commandments. I'm not going to write them because you apparently know them by heart. I doubt it though, because if you knew them you would know you break those Commandments by condoning, promoting, and accepting homosexual behaviors. These sins of homosexuality, fornication, impurity, and acceptance all fall under the 6th & 9th Commandments. Look up in Yahoo the category, sins against the 6th & 9th Commandments, and you will see you can sin against Commandments in many ways. Homosexual acts are mortally sinful for many reasons. Some of the main ones are: Impurity, Fornication(God does not accept gay marrige), Masterbation, Lust, and many, many more. So Mark, you should rethink your support for homosexuality and realize you have no basis for your support of their behavior. When you do it is mortal sin. Apparently, you need to study the 6th and 9th Commandments much more deeply.
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:21 PM By Mark from PA
Correction, we studied the 10 Commandments in 4th and 7th Grade and also Bible History in those grades. In 8th Grade we had an excellent text, "God's Saving Presence." I have actually used this text as a supplement to the text that I use for my current 8th Grade Religion class that I teach.
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:45 PM By Joseph Davis
I must have started reading your "paper" at a bad time. I'm sure it deals with many other things besides homosexuality. It seems to me that people often condemn most strongly sins that they are not tempted to commit, it saves them looking to deeply into their own conscience. The priest when saying Mass is suppose to give a homily ( expand on the readings of the day), he cannot choose to speak on the " sins of the flesh" If he could it may be an idea for him to speak on the seven deadly sins, say particularly Gluttony and refuse to give the blessed sacrament to obese people.
he might also give a sermon on 'road rage'. People who write with such venom here may not be able to control their tempers elsewhere; perhaps in the home or against other minorities. Still further there is Consumerism or that sin against the first commandment, that of being overly concerned with money so that it becomes more important than God. Yes I definitely agree the priest should be able to speak about the sins particularly the ones I am not tempted to commit.
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 8:44 PM By JLS
PA, there you go with the word, "hate" again. You have not read my posts too well; I distinguish between homosexual sexual behavior and what you call orientation. Point out to me what I've posted that contradicts the Magisterium. I was taught the Ten Commandments in Lutheran sunday school, but the teacher laughed and the girls giggled when I asked what the word, "adultry", meant. At that point I realized (about age 12) that I couldn't trust those people. It took me two more years before I figured out how to stop being made to go to that church. But not to worry, PA, because I eventually learned about that particular commandment the hard way, through experience. I know that Jesus heals, repairs, redeems, repatriates, reconciles, reaches hearts, reels in souls, renovates lives, really really well. This is why I have no trouble telling it like it is ... the identity of a person is not determined by his or her sexuality or orientation. Many souls there are who have experienced the conversion from sinner to saint, from afflicted to whole. It is your choice, PA. Ever seen one of those Lourdes films, where they show a humongous pile of crutches and wheel chairs? Think about it.
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 8:47 PM By JLS
PA, have you ever read the Letters of St Paul. He explains these things. It is not enough to simply memorize the Decalog; you have to study to understand what it means. St Paul's conscience was formed in the Third Heaven ... wouldn't you consider his credentials to be sufficient?
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Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:29 PM By Mark from PA
I went to Mass with my mom this evening. The Mass was beautiful and the sermon was an inspiration. In a way it was an affirmation. Blessings in the New Year. Pacem in Terris.
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:01 AM By MarkF
For Joseph Davis, I agree with you that people on here often go on at length about sins that they are not themselves tempted to commit. And that does trouble me. I am split as to what the genuine Catholic response should be. On one hand our society at large has lost its sense of sin, and has made what it a sin to be the norm. And all of this has affected the Church. The faithful aren't so faithful anymore, and in an individualistic culture like America, dissent seems to be the norm. Some of the strong words here, like pervert and sodomite, may be a tonic to bolster the faith of those who feel assaulted by a culture that seems to know only one sin, and that is the sin of not embracing homosexuality. But shouting pervert at someone is not going to change anyone's heart. The real fact is that in a country where birth control and abortion are considered to be normal, there are a lot of perverts and murderers out there, and they aren't all homosexuals. What we have to do is to find a voice to speak out with that is solidly Catholic but is also kind enough to actually win over people who are steeped in a very secular culture, and shouting words like pervert I'm afraid is going to have the opposite affect.
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:09 PM By Joseph Davis
Thank you MarkF, at last some one who see where I am coming from. We will not convert anyone by shouting the Truth at them. Itwill only come when people can look at as and say " see how they love one another".
many religious orders say " from Gospel to life from Life to Gospel"
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:47 PM By Anita
I notice on this site several people get very concerned over the language used. If you use correct terms they call it shouting and hatred. Don't they know we should be angry when our precious Lord is assaulted. Why do they feel so loving towards the perverts (a real word with real meaning) and so hateful towards the people defending the faith. It is that passive attitude that has us where we are. We need to fight for the faith. Do you realize that people have actually died for the faith?? And you can't take a little correct language. Hmmmm.
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:41 PM By Mark from PA
Very good, Mark F.
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:57 PM By JLS
PA, was there any substance to you inspiration?
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 6:19 PM By JLS
The use of descriptive words is only ineffective if they are used poorly. Beating around the bush is even worse, as the sinner will not ever realize his or her eternal plight. Take the model, for example, of a convicted criminal facing a judge for sentencing: The judge might say to him, "You have cold bloodedly murdered three innocent people, after brutally raping them. You have been convicted of the heinous crime of premeditated murder, rape, sodomy, mayhem; for these crimes your sentence is death by hanging". The judge might even speak this loudly, slowly and clearly to make sure that every ear hears the words of condemnation. God "shouted" a number of times, as recorded in Scripture. Sodom was one event. But no one in Sodom had any intention of turning from sin. Jonah the Prophet walked through the city of Nineveh shouting to the people to repent of their sin or else God would quickly destroy them ... they did; He didn't. Yet, also, the Voice of God can speak in miraculous ways, such as we read in Genesis 1: "1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. 3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. 5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day." Was it a quiet whisper? A loud shout? Calm command? What about the trumpets and shouting we find coming from Heaven in the Apocalypse? Lastly, I see no commandment against shouting. And I do see the commandment to preach the Gospel in season and out ... It's preaching is not to be managed by the sinner but by God, and His management flows through the Church, and if the Church goes silent, then the stones will cry out ... notice, the inanimate creatures will shout the glory of God and the need to repent and turn to Him.
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Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:13 PM By JLS
I forgot the Sermon on the Mount, and the Sermon on the Plain: Does anyone suppose that Jesus was whispering, using a quiet still voice, talking calmly without ruffling anyone's conscience? Thousands of people on that hillside, and on that plain, and His voice was not raised? If He was not shouting, then how could people in the back hear Him? And yet sometimes we are "in the back" of our personas, our faulty characters, with barricades put up so that we do not have to listen or hear voices of other people. How then does one extend one's voice beyond the barricades?
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Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 4:05 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, our pastor told about a priest who funeral he had attended on New Year's Eve morning. The priest had been bedridden for 3 years and suffered with cancer but spent much time in prayer. It was sad. Our pastor gave the same sermon at the 4 PM Mass on New Year's Eve that I took my mom to and also the 10 AM Mass on New Year's Day that I went to. But the 10 AM sermon was shorter and he left out the part that I found most inspiring. When he was giving it the night before I wished that I had a pen and paper so I could have written down some of his thoughts which have pretty much escaped me.
Anita, "correct terms" "a little correct language." Give me a break here. "Why do they feel so loving towards the perverts?" Many of us feel loving towards good and decent people even though these people may be hated by others.
You feel justified in calling people that you despise perverts so nothing I will say will dissuade you as I am one of those that you dislike so.
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Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 5:12 PM By Anita
Mark, you are so wrong. Nowhere have I ever indicated I dislike anyone. It is the act that is an abomination. It is not normal and no amount of spin on words will make it decent. Just as adultery is a sin to the heterosexual. We need to be honest and recognize sin.
Corny but true, the sin not the sinner is what we condemn. We want you converted to the true faith.
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:04 AM By Grisha
Mark fm PA: On December 24, Our pastor said mass at the regular 8:00 AM daily, the 5:00 Children's (which my wife and I went to) Midnight, and then on Christmas day, at 8:00 AM again and at 11:00 (my daughter and I went to it) The quality of his homilies were consistently high throughout. After the 11:00 I said to him "Merry Christmas Father, now please go to the rectory and take a long nap."
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:17 AM By Grisha
Mark F: The questions you pose are important ones. All I can tell you is that in speaking to numerous priests, including those who have been third world missionaries, I've been told that their training has been that you meet the person where they are and then accompany them along a journey to conversion and faith. I've also noticed that the best priests speak of temptation and sin in the first person plural "We fail the Lord when we..." etc.
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:16 AM By MarkF
Anita, we have several battles here in front of us. One, and the one I think you're more interested in is the battle for the Church to regain her backbone to fight the influences that come from the secular, atheistic world. You're very right that oftentimes we're told to be tolerant, but that request for toleration is really a trick to get us to support actions that we know are really dangerous. Society tells us that adultery is a fact of life, that abortion is a just choice, that divorce and remarriage are good for the kids, that cohabitation is a way for two people to get to know each other and that homosexuality is something wonderful. Society is pressing on us to to tolerant, as if that in itself is a virtue. So I see where you're coming from. We have to be prepared to be able to respond to a society that wishes to push evil actions under the guise of tolerance and acceptance. But the next question is, how do we do this in a way that does not alienate the people who are living in confusion on these issues? Will calling someone who is living as an open homosexual a pervert really do them any good? Will it help help a woman who's struggling with abortion to call her a murderer? The old saying needs repeating, win an argument, lose a soul. The devil is at work here very much so. He has it set up so that if we use the word pervert to describe perversion, or murderer to describe murder, the very people who need the Church the most are the ones most likely to walk away. So we need to chose our words carefully, and to know when we need to defend the Church, and when we need to spread the faith to those who are not of our beliefs. The language we use within the Church often makes no sense to those with no faith. I know you're mad at a society that is blind and that wishes to push its blindness on the Church, but we have to be practical and I'm afraid that certain words cause people to tune us out or worse.
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:26 PM By Mark from PA
Oh, Anita, you need to re-read what you wrote. I hope that you don't call people that you like such names. You surely don't. To me calling people offensive names is a sign of disdain. And yes, you do condemn the sinner. Sadly, we are pretty much all sinners. Anita, I have been baptized into the true faith and have never left. I don't need to be converted.
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:29 PM By Eileen
Mark F, Thank you very much for your Jan. 03, 2009 post. Your words are exemplary! I also have my patience tested like Anita when Catholics who are very intelligent and desire compassion for themselves yet they have shown little compassion for the most helpless. Still, your words are true. I remember standing in front of an abortion mill while the women coming in for abortions walked into the building. Christians would sometimes get angry because the woman seeking the abortion would ignore the Christian woman's pleas to not go inside the abortion mill. One Christian person held a bullhorn and yelled out the word murderer to each woman that went through the door. This bullhorn was so loud that everyone inside heard the truth. I never once witnessed a woman turn around and decide to allow her baby to live because she was truthfully being referred to as a murderer. I did see women change their mind because of carefully chosen words. I think that I remember you mentioning that you are affiliated with the Legion of Mary. The Blessed Mother has such a way of helping all of her children soften the words and footsteps of trying to reach sinners. The Holy Spirit should often be called upon before we speak. Our intentions have to be purified and this is difficult when we are faced with such evil but I am confident that what you say works more effectively. It really comes down to wanting the very good for another's soul like someone has wanted for the very good of our own soul when we have been the ones to turn our backs to God's Love. There is also a time to call a spade a spade and use words that some might call mean or harsh. When these words are spoken with true and purified intentions of love for the sinner, they never fail. We might not get to see the fruits of our labor or the brown bud blossoming but the spiritual crop dusting of sometimes painful but truthful words, (especially when infused with the much called on Wisdom and Grace of the Holy Spirit) works miracles.
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:27 PM By Eileen
Mark F. In further response to your Jan. 03, 2009 10:16 AM post. This is another example of why I thought your words were true. One Saturday morning while sidewalk counseling I noticed that the abortion mill had hired a new young handsome security guard. This young man was built like a large football player. In between speaking with the women, I asked him why he chose this job? He said that he was on vacation from Kentucky and that he needed the money. He told me that he played college football and was saving his money. I told him that if I had met him in a local market I would have thought, "What a strong and handsome young man. I wonder if he plays football or has some kind of job that requires strength." Then I told the young man that I would ask him where he works?" I told him that when his response was "I am the guard of the door of abortion mills who makes sure that no babies will be allowed to live". I told him that my estimation of his personal goodness and character would totally be diminished. He did not enjoy hearing this. I asked him if he would be proud to face God in this line of business? He never got mad at me. No one had challenged him to be better. I asked him if he was raised with any faith? He said,'No' He said his family was Portuguese but he had never heard of Our Lady of Fatima. The next two hours were spent discussing the message of Fatima and he was really interested. I asked him if I helped him to get a better summer job than being the guard of ensuring the death of babies would he be interested? He said that he would. He wrote his phone number down and asked me to help him find another job. He also told me that he was going to research the Miracles at Fatima Portugal. This guard quit his job and never returned. He left for Kentucky before I was able to find him another $10.00 an hour job. Imagine, this lost young soul taking $10.00 an hour while he was selling his own soul for free, to guard the slaughtering of helpless babies in the womb.
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Posted Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:46 PM By MarkF
Thanks Eileen! No, I'm not with the Legion of Mary, but I do pray for help from her all the time. I'm so new to all of this that I'm still finding my voice, but I have learned a few things. One, is that I assume that most people know what their sins are, or what acts the Church considers to be a sin. Homosexuals know what the Church thinks, and even with all the attention given to liberal Protestant groups who approve of such things, people know that this is a novel idea, and is a minority opinion. One-on-one, with strangers that we meet, all that a person needs to know is that we are Christians, and to show them love and respect. If we get to know them better, we can begin to talk about the faith. On the other hand, in a open forum like this, or when we have dissenters coming into the Church with the intent to change what is taught, we have to be more firm and more ready to speak up for the truth. I'm not sure that the word pervert will ever win converts, but we have to be ready, as I have shown a lot on here, to state the facts - that abortion is murder and that homosexuality leads to a separation from God and to all sorts of unhappiness in this life. The other thing I've learned is to trust in the Holy Spirit, to do what I can and to let go and let the Spirit do the rest. Even Jesus himself did not convince everyone (John 6:66) , so I should expect the same.
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Posted Sunday, January 04, 2009 7:47 AM By JLS
MarkF, keep up the good work. You're obviously putting your all into the salvation of yourself and others. And you seem to be covering most of the questions that have to be addressed in this effort. I wouldn't, however, assume that everyone knows their sins ... well, not exactly. We can bury our sins, so that even though the knowledge of them is in our memory (and the effects in our lives, and the damage among us all), it is hidden from our conscious conscience. *** Another point of contact: C. 1972, on my then college campus, I was urged by a local yokul Jesus Freak to go to a showing on campus of some movie about creation. My knowledge of such stuff was rudimentary at best, not thought about much, and I went based on my trust of this budding Jesus preacher. When I got to the building on campus, there was a crowd and there were picketeers. I'd been on and around that campus for six years and knew more or less anyone who had any kind of social profile. I had never before seen many of these picketeers so riled up. One of them warned me not to go in to see the film. These fanatics picketing were proclaiming the Lost City of Atlantis ... also, for the first time I saw a common thread of homosexualism among many of them ... and I was both surprised and put off by it. I went in. I don't remember much of the film, but the impact on me was profound, in that I discovered the hard dividing line between those hostile to God and those of faith in God. I realized that I was stuck somewhere between the visciousness of social rebellion and the rational and self sacrificing love of the Jesus people, only one of whom I was acquainted with at that time. It was a David and Goliath thing and David won.
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Posted Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:53 PM By JLS
Actually, now I recall it was the other way around: The picketers were the Jesus Freaks, a few at most, and the movie deal was the Lost continent of Atlantis. The Atlantis crowd was visciously denouncing the Jesus people. I didn't know what was going on until I went in and saw for myself. The Jesus people spoke rationally and carried themselves nobly and calmly, no fear of the devil, which I could see was there among the Atlantis crazies. It was a turning point for my soul, and which the rest of me followed a year or so later.
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Posted Monday, January 05, 2009 10:11 AM By MarkF
So....I'm done with offering my hand out. Eileen's expression about how someone needs a "burning fire of charity" comes to mind, but at some point if a person lacks humility, hides behind the actions of others (playing the childish blame game) and cold-heartedly won't come clean about his real views, I say it's time to move on. And JLS, I know what you mean about seeing protesters like that. A few years before I came back to the Church I was in DC while they were having an pro-abortion rally, and let me tell you, that was one unhealthy looking crowd. There were sickly looking young people, either morbidly overweight or emaciated looking - all extremely pale and well, not healthy looking - parading around shirtless, both men and women. The overall feel was of something psychologically wrong, some sort of childish rage at an imaginary persecutor. Just about a year before I came back to the Church I was in DC for the Right to Life protest and what a contrast! I realized that I could look a person and tell if they were part of the protest or an ordinary citizen by looking at them and seeing if they seemed gentle and happy. And somewhere in between the demonic of the pro-abortion, pro-homosexual parades, and the peace of the Right to Life, there is the frozen chill of the so-called liberal Christians. We see it on here. Words of peace are mouthed, but never the truth. And again the chill - no contrition, no humility, only pride and a self-serving veneer of platitudes. Lots of people have apologized on here for things they've said. Lots of people, including myself, have made mistakes on here. Yet we all seemed to have learned by them, and that is because we are Christians and have humility and are open to God's grace. All of us except one in particular that is. What can we learn from this? For one thing, I've learned how dangerous "liberal" views are. At least a drunk knows he's a drunk and doesn't push alcoholism on the rest of us.
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Posted Monday, January 05, 2009 4:13 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, since my high school days I have been pro-life. I remember as a student writing a letter to Betty Ford to protest her support for the pro-abortion cause, but sadly I never mailed it. As I became older I did write many letters to my legislators as well as our local newspaper in support of pro-life causes. I have given monetary support to pro-life causes and taken part in pro-life activities and events. I remember once when Catholics in our community protested and were called names by an anti-life crowd. I am also an adoptive parent and strongly support adoption. And for your information I have never been drunk either.
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Posted Monday, January 05, 2009 6:43 PM By Mark from PA
One of the priests who influenced me most is a "liberal" priest and he is also one of the finest men that I have ever known. He said daily Mass for us often when I was in college and he strengthened in me a love for the Eucharist. He gave the homily at our parish's 40th anniversary Mass. The one line that he said brought tears to me eyes. He told the people that we taught him how be be a priest. I first met this priest the week after he was ordained and truly feel blessed by God to know him.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:09 AM By MarkF
On another message board I read an article about a recent interview in a Boston newspaper with Fr. Richard O'Brien. The debate revolved around whether Fr. O'Brien is a liberal or a centrist or what. In other words the discussion was framed in much the same was as a political debate. The issues in question were the usual ones we see here - women priests, abortion, homosexuality, Church discipline, etc. The unspoken assumption of this debate was that everyone knew what the Church teaches on these issues and that if you agree with almost none of them, then you're a liberal. If you agree with some of them but not all, you're a moderate. And if you agree with all of them you're a conservative. I think that all of us here see the problem with that. The true way to frame this is whether the views are orthodox or not, and not to mince words, whether the views are heretical or not. This is a trying time for all of us as Catholics. We need the courage of our convictions to know that we have the truth. And in this particular area to know that homosexuality is a destructive force that cannot be compromised with. No amount of piety or fidelity to some other issue can make up for being hard-hearted and prideful with this issue, an issue that truly has a a demonic side to it. No one can be truly Catholic until they accept all of the teachings of the Church. I know that many people who attend Mass do not accept it all, and no one else can know what reasons a person has for clinging to the views that the world gives them that contradict what the Church teaches. Some people may not have given these issues much thought. Some might even have been lead to think there is room for debate. Yet others are persistent and obstinate in clinging to their heretical views. They are the ones who never admit a mistake. They are the ones who hurl insults towards the faithful, or who use the sins of others to justify their own heretical views. Some even play the martyr.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:27 AM By MarkF
We live in a very confused age. Many people have been lead astray by the thinking of the world. Yet in this mess that we're all in, we have to be able not only to see what's right, but to do what's right. I think I've tried to do both here. But I am tired of dealing with the same practices - the old switcheroo, change the subject, bring up some other issue - and all of it masking a real anger at the Church. There really is such a thing as the religion of homosexuality. I'm not the only one to notice this. In this religion, the only good is spreading and accepting homosexuality. The real sinners are anyone who does not praise it. Underneath the cries for tolerance of people is the call for acceptance of the behavior. Beneath the calls for peace is a war with what's good and decent. We have to be on guard with our language, because some of it can and will be used by the most confused amongst us to trick others into accepting the confusion that is homosexuality. But remember this - the gospel that Jesus himself taught was hated by the leaders of his day. If Jesus were alive today, he would be labeled as pushing "hate speech." Look at what happened to Pope Benedict a few weeks ago, a man with firm opinions yet the most mild of manners. He's been labeled as a hater, and I've heard his views called "prejudiced" by one on here. So, I'm asking all of the faithful on here, what do we do? What do we do when someone knowingly persists in attacking the Church and spreading confusion? Do we ignore them? Do we keep on saying the same thing over and over? Do we ignore them but try to limit the damage they do to the faith? I'm stuck, and in some sense, I'm through, so I'll leave it up to you all.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:47 PM By Mark from PA
"An issue that truly has a demonic side to it." Homosexuality is not a sin, it is an orientation. And gay people are not demons or possessed by demons. They are human beings the same as anyone else. I realize that the Catholic Church views gay people as objectively disordered and thus were are seen as defective people by many. I accept that this is what the Church teaches with humility but I still feel that Christ also loves us.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:07 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
What do you teach your students when it comes to the teachings of the Magisterium on the sinfulness of homosexual sexual activity and indeed on the sinfulness of all sexual activity outside the sacred bonds of marriage?
Sometimes it is necessary and charitable to use harsh language to shock the person out of their bad sinful habits, we trust the Holy Ghost to tell us when those times are!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:34 PM By MarkF
Will someone help me out? The same old screed. The same old lies. The same old propaganda. The same whining cries of martyrdom. The same old confusion. I wish that I could write on here things I read just today on a blog by a homosexual propagandist - obscenities, filth, vulgarity, and all of it directed at the Church. And what provoked this? He didn't like Archbishop Niederauer's call for civility and respect surrounding the Prop 8 debate. Was it C. S. Lewis who said that the first thing that the devil wants us to believe is that there is no devil. Spend even a little time with active homosexuals, or with people who promote abortion, and you'll see what the devil can do with people. Human beings - our bodies - are sacred and perhaps this is why the devil attacks us in ways to defile the human body.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:59 PM By Daryn
Markf, I spend enough time seeing and hearing what active heterosexuals do that I have no need to delve into the minutia of what some active homosexuals are doing. There's nothing that homosexuals do that heterosexuals don't also do 50 times as much.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 5:45 PM By Mark from PA
Kenneth M Fisher, this is what I am teaching. I started out going over questions for confirmation which the students had to learn. we also had the students tell about their patron saints. This was in preparation for the Sacrament of Confirmation. After confirmation we studied the Communion of Saints and then studied various saints throughout the history of the Church as well as the history of the Church. Then we did a chapter on Separated Brethren. I also did a lesson on the gospel of Jesus and the Samaritan woman and His lesson of acceptance and we discussed how we should all have respect for each other. Before Christmas I did a chapter on the Liturgical Year. In the New Year I plan to go over the Birth of the Church, explain the Church hierarchy and the Pope and go over some of the Popes from the last 100 years. We will also do a chapter on the Sacraments of Initiation and a Chapter on the Sacramental Life and discuss the Sacraments of Penance and the Holy Eucharist. I stress the importance of the Eucharist in our life as Catholics. We will also discuss abortion and social justice and do a chapter on Holy Orders and the priesthood. We also have a chapter on Mary and I do the Litany to the Blessed Mother. During Lent I plan to read the Lenten gospels and discuss them with the students. I also have the students pick out their favorite readings from the New Testament, read them and discuss them. If I have time I will go over some of the history of the Catholic Church in the United States. I teach 8th graders and I never use harsh language. I treat all my students with kindness and respect.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 7:20 PM By Mark from PA
Kenneth, I teach 8th graders and I really don't get into sex education with them. They have that in health class in school. There is much that they need to learn about the faith. We have 2 sections and the other teacher doesn't really use the book, he discusses current events. I tend to use the book more and add New Testament and gospel readings so I tend to take a more conservative approach. In answer to questions such as you mentioned I would tell the students that they should wait until they are married to have sex and that teens are too young to have sex. I would not discuss various sex acts and types of birth control as I am teaching a religion class and this is not my place. In regard to homosexuality I would tell them that gay people, indeed all people should be treated with respect. Church teaching says that gay people should be treated with respect and compassion and not discriminated against. As Catholics we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:20 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, if the obscenities, filth and vulgarities upset you so, just don't look at that stuff. Perhaps you should stay away from all those sites and volunteer at your parish or do other things that will give you peace of mind. And all that devil stuff. I don't waste time thinking about the devil, I don't have time for that. Take a walk, join a gym, help out your neighbors. You need to get rid of the anger, my friend. Peace be with you and God be with you.
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