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Published: October 29, 2008
“Do not betray the trust the public has placed in you”
San Diego City Council ignores bishop’s plea, approves resolution opposing Prop 8
Despite a personal plea from the auxiliary bishop of San Diego and a large demonstration by supporters of traditional marriage outside their chambers, the San Diego City Council voted on Monday afternoon to oppose Proposition 8, which would outlaw same-sex marriages in California.
 In an Oct. 21 letter to the mayor and city council members, Bishop Salvatore Cordileone, auxiliary bishop of the San Diego diocese, urged the council to remain neutral. “Please do not divide our community any more bitterly than it already is,” wrote the bishop. “Please do not betray the trust the public has placed in you. Please do not disenfranchise those who worked so hard to give Californians the opportunity to decide. Rather, please place principle over politics, and allow the democratic process to work, unencumbered and objectively. Please, do not give up on the idea that democracy is a good thing when allowed to work according to its principles. Please, let the people decide, fair and square.”
But the council apparently paid little heed to what the bishop had to say, voting 6-2 for a resolution putting the city on record as against Proposition 8. The motion to approve the resolution was made by Councilwoman Toni Atkins, an open lesbian who “married” her longtime partner Jennifer LeSar on Sept. 6.
Voting with Atkins to oppose Proposition 8 were council members Kevin Faulconer, Donna Frye, Ben Hueso, Jim Madaffer and Scott Peters. Council members Brian Maienschein and Tony Young voted against the anti-8 resolution.
Below is the complete text of the resolution:
A RESOLUTION OF THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO OPPOSING STATEWIDE PROPOSITION 8, "CALIFORNIA MARRIAGE PROTECTION ACT."
WHEREAS, Statewide Proposition 8 is officially titled "Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry. Initiative Constitutional Amendment" and is also known as the "California Marriage Protection Act"; and
WHEREAS, on March 2000, California voters passed Proposition 22 to modify state law to indicate that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California; and
WHEREAS, on May 15, 2008, the California Supreme Court ruled that the statute enacted by Proposition 22 and other statutes that limit marriage to a relationship between a man and a woman violated the equal protection clause of the California Constitution; and
WHEREAS, as a result of the California Supreme Court's ruling, marriage between individuals of the same sex is currently valid or recognized in the state; and
WHEREAS, Proposition 8 proposes to amend the California Constitution to specify that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California; and
WHEREAS, if passed, notwithstanding the California Supreme Court ruing of May 2008, marriage would be limited to individuals of the opposite sex, and individuals of the same sex would not have the right to marry in California; and
WHEREAS, opponents of Proposition 8 assert that the California Constitution should guarantee the same freedoms and rights to everyone, and that the freedom to marry is
fundamental to our society, just like the freedoms of speech and religion; and
WHEREAS, opponents of Proposition 8 assert that the institution of marriage conveys dignity and respect to the lifetime commitment that a couple makes;
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED,
that the San Diego City Council opposes Statewide Proposition 8, the "California Marriage Protection Act."
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that no public funds shall be used in the campaign for or against the measure.
Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:51 AM By JosephB
I applaud the SD City Council for standing up for fairness and against discrimination.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:25 AM By St. Christopher
As said previously, Satan is strong in CA. It is time to shake the dust from your sandals and leave that place, not looking back. Let them live in their sins.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:34 AM By Embarcadero
The Catholic church has no business advocating to take away rights from people in the state of California or anywhere else. This is a question about the civil and secular institution of marriage - the Catholic church can go on defining marriage however it wishes.
Thinking Catholics should be horrified that Church leaders have taken a position against an essentially civil matter. We need separation between church and state.
No one benefits from this attempt to strip people of their rights. Shame on Salvatore Cordelieone!
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:46 AM By Fr. M.P.
It shows what a lie that no public funds have been used. It costs money to pay to have the city council meet and debate this, also taking away time from other relevant business that they should work on. So they have already spent taxpayer money against Prop 8. This decree also shows how the government is imposing its immorality on people, just like Our Lady said at La Salette. So much for tolerance of the Truth and the natural.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:44 AM By Joan of El Cajon
What a nest of scheming vipers we have on the San Diego city council! They refuse to listen to voices of moral reason, instead preferring to put children and society at risk in pursuit of disordered lusts. God bless Bishop Cordileone for going before them and trying to talk some sense into them, but their minds were obviously made up long in advance of the meeting.
Perhaps the saddest commentary of all that day was by councilman Jim Madaffer, who seconded Atkins' motion by talking about the need for "equal rights." Seven years ago, when he was a freshman councilmember, Madaffer, who has two sons in Boy Scouting, was one of the most staunch defenders of the Scouts' rights to have their headquarters in Balboa Park.
In recent years, however, he has seemingly drunk the Atkins' Koolaid, and has begun marching in San Diego's "gay shame" parade and voting in lockstep with her on all of the nefarious pro-homosexual resolutions she has brought before the council. It is truly sad to see this man, who should understand the threat homosexuals pose to his own Boy Scout sons, cave in to their perverted demands.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:36 AM By Pjj
Why is the city council voting whether or not to endorse a proposition? Isn't that using a form of public funds to campaign against this measure? Their pay comes from the pool of city funds, which come from the fees the people pay for services. I don't think the people pay them to campaign for or against a measure, especially not in this case. This is blatant self serving by homosexual city council members and their supporters. The same ones who spoke out against the firefighters for suing the city after being forced to participate in the homosexual parade and were subsequently sexuallly harrassed and cursed at by the homosexuals at the parade. Pray for San Diego and our country.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:41 AM By Richard
Look no further for proof the age of libertinism has arrived when politicians scrape to bow before their hedonists masters.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:33 AM By Life Lady
San Diego needs a lot of help and prayer. Please, pray for us all. We need it in this city.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:50 AM By Linda
The Godless council will probably rename the town San Gayiego next! They really are the Gaystapo. To quote the Bible.. "and their foolish hearts were darkened......."
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:23 AM By Joe
The NO on Proposition 8 people say--Fairness and equality We are talking about the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman--NOT THE SATANIC JOINing OF HOMOSEXUAL AND LESBIANS together. God will not forget the stand that Auxiliary bishop of San Diego Cordileone took. Prop 8 supporters, LETS GET OUT THE VOTE.......
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:52 AM By Polneon
Marriage is not purely a civil and legal matter. It is matter of morality. It has so since the beginning of time. Now that we have organized ourselves into social groups and there is significant money to be had by exercising certains "rights", any human behavior, moral or not, has suddenly become a right. There has to be a special place in hell for the members of these special interest groups.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:00 PM By Elizabeth
What cowards the City Council of San Diego is!!!!
Just thinking about re-election and need the LIBERAL vote!!!!!!!!! They should be thinking about their souls and where they are going to spend ETERNITY!!!!!!!!!
And also, I always makes me wonder.....
why people like JosephB are posting on this website? We really don't need any of the liberal agenda here, we get plenty of it everywhere else!!!!!
IF JOSEPHB YOU ARE REALLY 'CATHOLIC' YOU NEED TO REALLY BE 'CATHOLIC' AND GET ON THE SAME PAGE AS THE CHURCH AND HER TEACHINGS, I SAY THIS WITH ALL DUE CHARITY.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:11 PM By Marlene D
San Diego not only needs a lot of prayers, they also need a lot of catholic voters banning together to boot these disgusting progressively wretched city council members out of their public offices and ensure they no longer hold public office again. Pray the Rosary earnestly and devotely daily before the election. The efficacy of the Rosary is greater than you can imagine! Pray that the meek shall inherit the earth, and the wicked shall be cast out of public office and our tarnished city of San Diego.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:21 PM By Bruce P.
Where does it say in the bishops letter to the City Council of Sinners to vote in favor of Proposition 8 to ban same-sex marriage? Rather, all he seemed to convey was defending the democratic process whether it supports right or wrong. What does: "Rather, please place principle over politics, and allow the democratic process to work, unencumbered and objectively. Please, do not give up on the idea that democracy is a good thing when allowed to work according to its principles. Please, let the people decide, fair and square.” have anything to do with clearly supporting Proposition 8 to ban same sex marriage? To bad the bishop of Rome doesn't get wind of such politics mixed with religion in these United States. Editor's Note: Bruce, you need to read the full text of the bishop's letter, published on this site Oct. 27 under the headline “Who is being discriminated against now?”
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:26 PM By Simone Dubois
what right is it that is being taken away? the right to freedom of religion seems the only right at risk here embarcadero. Viva Bishop Cordeleone!!!!!
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:35 PM By P.
I say lets banned all marriages same sex and traditional. Marriage allows us to place judgement on the sinners. What will the church do if they can't pass judgement on the sinners...
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:00 PM By Ronnie
Hey Joseph would you applaud the SD City Counsel if it stood up for my right to marry my boyfriend, girlfriend and son? If not, why not? After all that is unfair and discriminatory...Absurd? Once we redefine marriage, what's next? Of course, it might seem unfair to a person with no moral foundation or at least moral confusion, that two people with a gender identity disorder should not be allowed to marry. .
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:27 PM By Anne T.
P, it is not just the Church that passes judgment on sinners. All decent religions pass judgement on sinners. No Othodox Jew does or would back a marriage between two people of the same sex. Also, India outlawed so-called same-sex marriage, and most of them are Hindu.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:35 PM By Anne T.
I would like to clarify something in my last e-mail: although some of the gods and goddesses of the Hindu religion are not well behaved and moral in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word, many of the Hindu people are more moral (abide by natural law) than the gods and goddesses they worship. Therefore, they often make good, decent legislation.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:51 PM By Alvaro
Articles like this make me ashamed of being a Catholic. It's because of attitudes like this that the Protestant Reformation took place in 16th Century. This is what is leading our cherished Roman Church to increasingly become irrelevant and obsolete.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:24 PM By Vance
Ronnie, Prop 8 does not stop anyone with a "gender identity disorder" from marrying. Millions of people with a "gender identity disorder" have married in the past and millions will continue to marry whether Prop 8 passes or not. In fact, Prop 8 allows God haters, child molesters, wife beaters, adulterers, abortionists, alcoholics, sterile people and any sinner to marry as long as they are a man and a woman.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:37 PM By Embarcadero
The right in question is that of access to the legal, secular institution of marriage, over which the Catholic church has no legal say. If you don't understand that, you need to brush up on Constitutional law.
There is no risk to freedom of religion. No one has obliged the Catholic church to marry divorced people, non-Catholics or other deemed unfit for the sacrament of marriage.
The people of the United States - and thinking people of faith everywhere - want and need a separation of church and state. Catholics can exercise full control over the sacrament of marriage. The civil institution of marriage is a matter of constitutional interpretation and should not bear the stamp of any religion.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:04 PM By Maria C
To those who fail to understand that what we are preaching does not come from man, it comes from God almighty, He is the one who created Adam and Eve and made them one in Marraige! What they fail to understand is that the path they are choosing for themselves and their children are not from God but from their own personal believes. They will be punished for disobeying God's commandments and God's holy teachings through the Church! It is the secular life that allows gay marraige but it will never have God's blessings. Ultimately there will be serious consequences to their actions and how they affect the innocent children being scandelized with lies and a lifestyle in which is unfruitful in good but will be fruitful in evil. These homosexual unions have the devils blessings. It is their pride to want to be better than God, to tell God "no" by their actions and lifestyle and lack of spiritual growth in Jesus.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:36 PM By Mea Culpa
There is no "right" for homosexuals to marry each other. The only reason it is allowed now is because 4 activist judges decreed that the will of the people as expressed in Proposition 22 was null and void. There is no more a "right" for homosexuals to marry than there is a "right" for me to marry my dog. This "gay marriage" smokescreen is just the latest step of the homo-nazis to force everyone to live amid the filth of their sinfulness. They want to teach our kids (since they don't have any of their own) that their fake "gay marriages" are equivalent to real marriages, that the sinful behavior known as the "gay lifestyle" is a viable alternative to a God-centered existence, and ultimately they want us to declare that their sins are not really sins after all. Sorry, homo-nazis, but we're not buying it, and Proposition 8 will pass.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:10 PM By Mary
Like Vance said, Prop 8 reserves the legal "right" to marry to God haters, child molesters, wife beaters, adulterers, abortionists, alcoholics, sterile people and any sinner as long as they are a man and a woman.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:48 PM By Simone Dubois
If you really believe that Embarcadero then I have a bridge I want to sell you, cheap. Interested?
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:31 PM By Grisha
Anne T.: Please remember that the First Amendment makes no distinction between religions which you and I believe to be "decent", including our own Catholicism, and other religions which you, I or anyone else believes to be not "decent."
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:54 PM By kircher
Those in favor of same-sex marriage must explain what they will say when polygamists, polyandrists, practitioners of incest, bestiality, sex with children, and every other permutation of carnal relationship begin to demand their "rights." Allowing same-sex marriage is a classic slippery slope. Why should the marriage line be redrawn here and not literally anywhere else? Why should there be a line at all? If it is no business of the state to prevent marriage between "loving people," why can't a brother and sister get married? or two brothers, for that matter? or a mother and her son? or three people? or four? along with their dog? It would be the height of hypocrisy for same-sex marriage advocates to deny any such people the same state recognition that they are demanding for themselves. But narcissism and unthinking "compassion" never notices such inconvenient consequences.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:01 PM By JLS
Vance, relativism will get you no where. Humility will bring you understanding.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:02 PM By embarcadero
I'm completely baffled by the comments in here - "homo nazis", people living in the "filth of their sin" and no apparent recognition of the division between church/state or between the legal institution of marriage and the religious sacrament of marriage. What's wrong here? The level of hate, that's what.
Simone, yes, I absolutely believe that there should be no stamp of any religion on the legal institution of marriage for the same reason that I don't want to end up living under Sharia law. If you were wise, you'd share that concern.
Those who feel that they're following god's path have the obligation to set an example and persuade others that they're right. There is no excuse for those of you who want to use the force of the state to enforce your religious ideas on others. Shame on you, you're no better than the Pharisees or the merchants that Christ expelled from the temple.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:15 PM By JLS
Here is the error of Vance, which he articulates pretty well: The fact of marriage is a testimony to God, and to God's mercy to work with sinners who desire His love. Homosexualist demands have no place, have no humility, have no justification, have no redeeming value, but actually mock the primary relationship God has instilled in human beings. Read Old Testament, which records the explanations God has provided for us to be able to measure the gravity of sin. Adam and Eve defied him, exalting themselves and the devil, yet God forgave them. Cain made a false sacrifice and then murdered his brother out of jealousy and listening to the devil, yet God spared him. What have been the most punished violations of His Law? Idolatry, adultry, and homosexual behavior. Those who gain rule over many others and then make as if they have unseated God also have been punished by death, such as Jezebel who was thrown to the dogs to eat. What I see in this homosexualist movement is the essense of what God hates most. God's prophets, including those innumerable souls who have echoed the words of God down through the ages, have been often muted by such vain people, and have typically met a fate similar to Jezebel. Have any mockers of God ever died with joy in their hearts and smiles on their faces, as have many saints? How do such people as abortionists and homsexual advocates feel inside? I've never run into any of them who radiates much more than fleeting emotional blips, always focused either on some material good or on some interior subtlety slyly revealed and lusted after with a cloud of guilt about them. Has anyone seen anything better than this among such God mocking people?
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:26 PM By Barbara
Kircher, you're confused. Same sex "marriage" advocacy supports a legal arrangement involving two consenting non-familial adults. That excludes dogs, chickens, children, threesomes and other things you fantasize about.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:30 PM By kircher
Barbara, if I understand your comment through my haze of confusion, it is simply a very clear confirmation of the last sentence of my own comment.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:36 PM By JLS
Barbara, it also excludes God.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:41 PM By JLS
embarcadero, did you know that the Constitution originally prohibited only an official national religion, but allowed official state religions? At some point (I'm awaiting my history wagon to roll in with the details) this was changed. So for maybe the first century or so of the United States, various states had official state religions. Your interpretation of the Establishment clause is only about a century or so old ... how long do you think it will last? There are many credible thinkers who see that there is now a de facto official religion of the federal government, although a cryptic one. What would be your state religion of choice?
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:04 PM By Maria C
I was just informed that there are alot of pro-homosexual people who pretend to be Catholic that post here, so my advice is to not listen to these people, I'm sure the faithful will see right through the imposters. Mary now as to your comments you just posted, how dare you mock God's plan to pro-creation, fruitfulness and His plan to salvation, marriage does not excuse anyone to keep sinning, if one is faithful, they will follow God's plan in Holy Matrimony. As I have posted before, people will call love "hate" and hate "love". It will be the swine who will dip themselves in the mud and love it. It will be the dirty who will keep dirty and call themselves clean.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:22 PM By Embarcadero
JLS - yes, I did know that. No Establishment means no state religion, period. That's what it means now - and I greatly admire the system that keeps our Constitution alive and relevant. The emergence of a secular state is what keeps our country from flying apart at the seams. What did oficialdom do to catholicism in Spain or Argentina, to take two recent examples? As tools of the state Catholic clergy carried out unspeakable acts, violating every human right imaginable. Is it any wonder that Spaniards today have turned their back on Catholicism? That Argentines attend church about as often as Danes? No, it isn't. Keeping church and state separate keeps both sides clean.Or maybe you'd prefer to live under Sharia? Under the Holy Inquisition?
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:23 PM By Barbara
No, Kircher, you're justing confirming that you're still confused.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:30 PM By Barbara
And no, JLS, it doesn't exclude God. The law doesn't require that you be a divorcee, wife beater, God hater, sodomite or sterile. California marriage law allows all those, but it doesn't require that you be any of those. It's simply your choice, not the law.
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Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:03 PM By Maria C
Another Act of Contrition: O my God, I detest these and all other sins which I have committed against they divine Majesty. I am extremely sorry that I have sinned, because thou art infinitely good, and sin displeases thee. I love thee with my whole heart, and firmly purpose by the help of they grace, never more to offend thee. I resolve to avoid the occasions of sin; I will confess my sins, and will endeavor to make saitsfaction for them. Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy and pardon me, a wretched sinner, I beseech thee, in the name of Jesus, who shed His most precious blood for my salvation. Amen
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:53 AM By Dai Yoshida
embarcadero: I knew a young Caucasian man (may God have mercy on his soul) who practiced what he believed to be native a American religion. A hodge-podge of what he read in books, really. It was his opinion that being a native-American is a state of mind, regardless of blood. Should he have received the special legal identity of a native-American? Clearly nobody will support such a thing. So why should legal status of marriage be extended to someone who believe himself to be homo-sexual? There is no "gay" genes and no medical test which will conclusively prove his "gay-ness" It is merely his word that he is what he claims to be. If he decides later that he is straight after all, what happens to his marriage? Is it null and void because he was never eligible for "gay marriage"? Unlike other impediment to marriage, there is no clear-cut proof of eligibility here. Should the institution of marriage be reduced to a farcical contract? That is what is really at stake. Yes, we are Catholics. No, we are not imposing our religion on others. This is not about "rights". It's about maintaining a bare minimum standards to an institution that many of us holds sacred (or "dear", if you find the word "sacred" offensive).
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:12 AM By Bob
There is a very easy way to achieve an overturn of these kinds of resolutions. It doesn't involve yelling and screaming. Simply go out and organize good campaigns that will oust the politicians you don't like. Your opponents did just that. They had an ajenda, they gathered support and they got elected. Once elected, they implemented their agenda. You can do the same. Or, is it easier to write hateful letters to this site? If you want to change something, have an agenda, get elected!
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:32 AM By Anne T.
Oh! but the Founding Fathers of this nation, Grisha, made a distinction between decent and indecent religions, Grisha. All the foundations for their laws came from the Holy Bible. I know. I am descended from some of them.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:03 AM By Thomas B.
This string of blogs reminds me of the actions and arguements the Israelites were having when I reflect back on the famous movie of Moses played by Charleston Heston. There were those when Moses was on the mountain whom held to righteous moral living defined by God etched in their consciences, and then those who defied God and chose instead to be self-centered, ousting God from their lives. They enjoyed and preferred to committ sin, and in self-pride proudly worshipped a "strange" god the pagan golden calf. What is that "strange" god today that draws souls into hell? It is gay-pride, and it is pro-choice! We sinners need to repent and be humble. Hell is miserable and forever! Once a soul is there, there is no way of getting out!
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:29 AM By Anne T.
Exactly, Thomas B.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:04 PM By Grisha
Anne T: Where do we find evidence of this? The founding Fathers were clearly theists but wanted the state to be totally neutral when it came to matters of faith. The preamble to the Declaration of Independence assets that we are endowed by our Creator (Not Our Lord Jesus Christ, Yahweh, Allah or even God ) with certain inalienable rights. Later in the First Amendment they seem to have gone out of their way to be very cut and dried that they were referring to *all* religions. Should the government treat our ancient American Catholic Church any different for say, the largely gay Metropolitan Community Churches founded in the 1970's?
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:31 PM By Harvey
Bob is exactly correct. We whom voted for these degenerate city council members or did not vote against these sewer rats are also to blame for their being in public office and thrusting their wicked liberal non-moral venom upon us. Let's not let that happen again. Witch of these degenerates is running for public office next week? Let's make sure we don't vote for those incumbents but vote for new christian persons with morals regardless of party affiliation. We the catholic citizens of this city (nearly 1/4 of the voter population) have the power and authority collectively do get our local government back into christian and moral hands whom Saint Diego would be pleased with, especially after morals, laws, decency, were restored back into our infested city. Vote your catholic conscience to support catholic morals and values, not for your personal financial gain. Pray that the degenerate city council members up for election next week get trounced, and don't return to public office ever again.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:09 PM By Bruce P.
Dear Editor, Reference my 29 October blog. I stand corrected thank you. I am glad that the 27 October article prints the full letter and puts what the bishop said in a clearer Vote Yes on Proposition 8 perspective. May God help California pass this proposition to our constitution, if not passed, it will probably have been our last BIG chance to settle this sickening issue once and for all, since more will be moving here and more incidents like orientating our public school children to their devious gay-lesbian agenda could increase. Don't forget the gay-marriage incident a few weeks ago!
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:21 PM By A
By the way, Grisha, many of those Founding Fathers of whom I spoke wrote the Constitution and the First Amentment. They outlawed sodomy.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:57 PM By Mea Culpa
Thomas B. has hit the nail on the head. Homosexuals are worshipping the golden calf of their "sexuality" and forgetting about God. They will be punished.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:57 PM By Lot
Two men cohabitating is not marriage; it creates nothing, it is unnatural and has spread a disease that killed millions. Marriage is rooted in human nature itself and the complementarity of the genders; one man and one woman procreating children and raising a family. REALITY CHECK! This has nothing to do with religion, the basic good of society and the family is at stake. The "gay" lobby are pushing this because once they get laws changed and are able to call sodomy "marriage" they can punish anyone who won't go along with hate crimes legislation. This is really about forcing everyone to accept homosexual deviancy. Woe to the world if these people get power. What they are already teaching to little children in Massachusetts schools should be a wake up call to this country. VOTE YES ON PROP 8!
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 7:08 PM By JLS
They were not talking about all religions. The European milieu of religions was Catholic and Protestant with its variations. There was no Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jane, Animist (except among some slaves, but they were not part of the citizenship formula), Sikh, Shinto, Confusiousism, Marxism, Atheism etc. The Enlightenmentism thing had just begun, and as far as the Lodge, and other mystery dealies ... who knows. There were official state religions ... again, I'm waiting for the details to arrive so's I can post them. The only government religion which was not allowed was a United States official religion; however, as time has born out, that is exactly what we have now, an official but cryptic Religion of the United States, headed by the likes of Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi, and Miracle worker Geo. Bush.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 7:19 PM By Paula W.
I just listened to a 760 AM radio sen. Diane Feinstein ad to convince voters to vote no on proposition 8. She used the tactic to make those planning to Vote YES on Proposition 8 that they are bad denying same-sex marriage to gay and lesbian couples. I can imagine because of her stand and earthly-pride that she'd dare walk up to the face of our loving and Almighty God, defy Him and tell God He was bad too, for saying Yes to Proposition 8, even though God ultimately set the rules. Too bad Fienstein and Boxer aren't up for re-election so we can fire them and in shame so their evil liberal agendas would end. Of course Pelosi is no angel so if she is up for reelection, I pray her reign of terror, pro-death, and socialism is over once and for all. Pray that good christians straight and moral win the seats in tuesday's election.
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Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:43 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, not all the Founding Fathers were Deists. In fact, most were not. The Founding Fathers include those in the first thirteen colonies who helped start the Revolution against King George. They included Puritans, Episcopalians and Christians from other denominations. Some were even Catholic from other territories.They were far stricter on the moral laws then many of those denominations are today. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer included a curse against those who practiced incest, sodomy, etc., just as the Book of Leviticus does.The United States Constitution has the closing salutation "in the year of our Lord". We all know who that Lord was--the Lord Jesus Christ. The Liberty Bell has a quotation from the Book of Deuteronomy in the Old Testament. The liberty the American Founding Fathers was talking about was not the pagan liberty of the enlightenment (licentiousness), but liberty in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word. They rejected the French idea of revolution because they had seen the bloodshed, horror and decadence it caused. Most were horrified by the monstrous excesses of the French Revolution including when some of the revolutionaries enthroned a prostitute in Notre Dame Cathedral, killed priests and nuns and got rid of all Christian holidays and replaced them with pagan ones. Even though many of them were anti-Catholic, they thought the French had gone too, too far.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 1:03 AM By Aaron
Embarcadero: Thank you for your cogent argument with which I completely agree. I live in Spain because homophobic U.S. Immigration laws denied me the right to sponsor my Spanish partner for immigration....Spanish history is littered with cruel examples of Catholic church involvement in politics: The sad days of the Spanish Inquisition and the more recent cooperation of the church with the Franco dictatorship. Fortunately, the Vatican no longer holds sway over civil matters in Spain. Legislative approval of gay marriage was instituted to provide 100% equal rights for EVERYONE. This new law has done NOTHING to traditional families: traditional marriages happen every day; babies are born; traditional society moves on unaffected.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 10:39 AM By Jerald
I filled out my CA absentee voters ballot last night, and was disappointed that SINATORS DIANE FRANKENSTIEN and BARWIRE BOXER were not on the firing-line. UNREPRESENTATIVE BOOB FILNER was FIRED BY ME. Just remember when filling out your ballot that these 3 liberals plus the infamous public heretic HOUSE SPEAKER RANTCY PELOSI were all in on the shenanigans to steal $ 700 BILLION of YOUR hard earned MONEY to "SHARE AND REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH" giving it to the rich bankers and investors whom want compensation after losing it based on their greedy investment plans and risky loan actions! Historically when one invests, they accept especially on the stock market as some win and some loose daily. Investors can afford to take the risk, whereas the taxed middle-class and poor bailing them out, are now saddled with a $ 700 BILLION burden upon ourselves and our children! Like an anti-Robinhood the BANDITOS have taken from the middle-class and the poor and given to the rich. Some of these crooked, failed bankers and legistlators whom should be investigated for criminal activities and fired for incompetence have given dividends to the investors, i.e. YOUR hard earned CASH STOLEN from YOU. These 4 CA BANDITOS helped cognive the plan for those up for re-election next week to vote no on the bailout and deceptively crow about it. The legistlators knew collectively sticking together, that contrary to the publics overwhelming position against the bail-out, they could pass the bail-out with truckloads of pork deals and minimal impact on their political careers. I heard UNREPRESENTATIVE BOOB FILNER deceptively crowing about his no vote on the radio, and my hunch was true, he was one of the one-third up for re-election. Let's send a message to the congress, firing all the incumbents to remind the rest of them who they are really working for -- We the People! It won't happen unless you personnally fire your incumbent incompetent politician!
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 2:59 PM By JLS
Aaron, the Catholic Church formed an almost two millenia civilization out of Spain ... the homosexualists have formed nothing.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 4:28 PM By Gandhi
Anne T, you said, "many of the Hindu people are more moral (abide by natural law) than the gods and goddesses they worship." Perhaps in your view they are, but in Hinduism, all the many so-called gods and goddesses, and all persons, are all aspects of morality. Like orange and blue are aspects of light, neither orange nor blue is more light than the other. So too, in Hinduism, no Hindu is more moral than any god or goddess, for they are all aspects of morality. In Hinduism, no one is morally superior to another.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 5:49 PM By Anne T.
Yes, Gandhi, I meant from a Christian moral persepective. In other words some Hindus have kept the moral laws that Christ gave quite well, other than worshipping many gods and goddesses--no multiple wives, no sodomy, trying to be honest, etc.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 7:08 PM By JLS
Gandhi, glad to read a quick course on Hinduism.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 8:11 PM By Gandhi
Anne T, also, many Hindus view the "many gods and goddesses" as many Catholics view statues and do not "worship" them.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 9:35 PM By Trudy
Anne T., yes, and some catholic priests have, from a moral perspective, kept the moral laws that Christ Gave, while others have not.
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Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 11:06 PM By embarcadero
JLS - the reconquista in that created a Catholic Spain did not create a 2000 year civilization (after all, it started in the 8th century, and Spain only formed in the 15th Century). To the contrary, Catholicism brought darkness and ignorance to Iberia, setting virtually every field of human endeavor backwards. I don't believe that it was christianity, per se, but rather the corrupting power of state authority that did this. Judging from the comments in here, I see exactly the same thing happening in this country.
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Posted Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:43 AM By JLS
Europe, embarcadero, Europe including the West!!! The darkness stemmed from the Islamic rule of Spain and it took a while for the Church to get the lights turned back on ... look at a photo or video of the Great cathedral in northwestern Spain, which stood as a lighthouse while the rest of Spain was near drowning under their oppressors for eight centuries. The Church never brings darkness, but always light, the light of Christ. Your maudlin and sophomoric ideology of the "dark ages" doesn't work too well among informed readers.
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Posted Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:25 AM By Alfonso
I am sick of people repeating the made up BRITISH rewrite of Spanish history. This is what has been unknowingly taught in American (and all the countries previously under English sway) public schools for about the last two hundred years. Since Spain brought the true faith to the new world and resisted the protestant revolt English freemasons and others pieced together a patchwork of big lies and then had the audacity to pretend that this was actual history. For instance the Spanish Inquisition; the actual files were stolen by a Spanish traitor who defected to France and took the files with him in the Napoleonic era. Since he proceeded to destroy them he was free to concoct a hoax about what a terrible thing the inquisition was. No sincere catholic should be fooled by the rewrite of history that makes Spanish Catholicism look bad. I recommend "Characters of the Inquisition" by William Thomas Walsh (tan publishers) for all open minded persons who want an objective view of what actually happened. See also ISABELLA, & PHILLIP THE 2 by Walsh.
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Posted Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:07 PM By Dai Yoshida
Alfonso: I agree with much of what you say. Unfortunately, American public education still unabashedly repeat the Anglo-centric stories founded on anti-Catholic bigotry. embarcadero needs to study history from original documents rather than repeat the anti-papist mythology. But then, he is not interested in the truth.
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Posted Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:11 PM By Victoria G.
Alfonso, since you seem to be familiar with Spanish History, I have long been looking for a knowledgeable encyclopedia of the Spanish Etiquette. Please let me know via his site if you know of such a book.
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Posted Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:22 PM By JLS
Alfonso and Dai, exciting posts. Myself, being anglo-saxon, and the only known convert to Catholicism in my family tree, I have come to find that what you are saying is intriguing. My journey into Catholicism was aided by an Italiano, some Irish, and a few other Western European types. For the past decade or so, I've gradually come more and more into contact with the Spanish influence. Culturally we are incredibly different, but religiously the similarity is astonishing. Try as I may, I simply can't get the hang of Hispanic civilization, although I like what I run into. And I have no doubt that Hispanics have no clue whatsoever of anglo-saxon culture. One more reason to make the Latin Mass more available. I don't know that it is so much cultural, but rises above culture into another and greater and everlasting civilization.
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Posted Sunday, November 02, 2008 5:50 AM By JLS
Gandhi, you've brought up a good point for reflection. Northern Europe before the advent of Christianity also had a plethora of gods and goddesses, as did the Romans and the Greeks, the middle easterners, the Egyptians, the far east, India. Where did all these things come from? Why are they so similar? Is there anything different in the history of the world? Yes, beginning with Abraham and the Jews, and then the fulfillment of Judaism, namely Jesus Christ. What you are describing as similar between the Hindu gods and goddesses and the Catholic plethora of "saints" and angels may seem similar: Here is the difference. The saints are historical men, women and children (a few), many of whom of course are lost to myth in the early centuries with its lack of complete documentation. There are only a very few angels mentioned in the Bible, two holy angels by name.and two fallen angels by name. Honesty requires one to consider the advent of Christ, unique among all other figures. What skeptics sometimes tend to do is merge Catholicism with the secular civilizations and cultures among which She resides. There is kind of a gradient as Christianity involves the very holy to the barely holy, to the wannabes and even the imposters. When trying to identify Christianity, it is important to distinguish this fact.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 12:01 AM By Anne T.
Alfonso, that is a good book. Also, there is a Jewish writer, I think he name is?was Kamen, who wrote a book about the inquisition who said what is written about the Spanish is often exaggerated or not true. Queen Isabella was fighting with the Moors, who quite often took Spanish Christians into slavery, including their children, or made them pay a tax to the Caliphs. When some of the Jews turned on her and sided with the Moors, all hell broke loose. That is when she told them to get out or convert. We can all sit here and say how terrible she was, but ask yourselves, "What would I have done if I had been a Christian queen in that predicament?' The answer is not so easy. Is it?
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 11:07 AM By Gandhi
JLS,in my post, the comparison was with statues, i.e. representations. Hindus (by and large) do not worship representations. As to your gradient of holiness, I mentioned gradient previously in my example of the color spectrum. Even though some colors may appear brighter or more colorful to the eye, no color is more colorful or more light (holy) than another. Like I said, in Hinduism, "holier than thou" is comedy, divine comedy.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 1:51 PM By JLS
Not where it counts, Gandhi, is holiness funny. Although Jesus has expressed a sense of humor. Do you know the story where a blind man comes up to Him, and He spits in some dust and rubs the mixture in the eyes of the blind man? Then the blind man goes and washes his eyes and lo and behold, he can see. To me that is holy humor.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 5:30 PM By Gandhi
The word "comedy" derives from the Greek word for "village" (kômē). In Mark 8, Jesus took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. Putting spittle on his eyes he laid his hands on him and asked, "Do you see anything?" Looking up the man replied, "I see people looking like trees and walking." Then Jesus laid hands on the man's eyes a second time and he saw clearly; his sight was restored and he could see everything distinctly. Then Jesus sent him home and said, "Do not even go into the village."
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 5:51 PM By Joseph P.
Do your part and get out to vote tomorrow. Vote with your catholic conscience.
In an address to the Delegates of the International conference on Emigration, Oct. 17, 1951, His Holiness Pope Pius the XIIth said: "Everyone has to vote according to the dictates of his own conscience. Now, it is evident that the voice of this conscience imposes upon every sincere Catholic the duty of giving his or her vote to those candidates, or those lists of candidates, who really offer sufficient assurances for safeguarding the rights of God and the souls of men, for the real good of individuals, families, and society, according to the law of God and moral Christian doctrine. Source: The Pope Speaks, Pantheon Books: NY, 1957, p.301. Let us open our hearts, minds, ears, and sight to the truth through the holy graces God is trying to impart to our souls, and to vote according to our conscience following the will of God. Put God and His Holy Will first, and you will be blessed by Him for doing so. Pray the holy Rosary before tomorrow that this country's loss in morality begins to stop tomorrow on election day. Vote with God in your heart and soul, for further liberalizing the US government will not solve our problems, only Almighty God can do that.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 6:05 PM By JLS
Gandhi, back to the statue topic. Have you ever studied Hindu and Catholic celestial dogma, lore, myth, legend, etc.? One point here: The belief systems found among Catholics do not make up Catholic dogma. We have revealed truth, and we have opinions. The subject merits a substantial investment in study time. If you believe in life beyond what we see here and now, then you can explore it in various ways. If you have a specific question, I might or might not be able to provide a decent answer or insight. But someone else likely could.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 7:25 PM By Fr. M.P.
JLS, your example (Nov 3, 1:51PM) is the example for sacraments. We humans need a sign to indicate the Grace received. Invisible Grace, visible sign. *** Gandhi , to use your example to illustrate a major difference with Hinduism, God is the Light and we are only receivers of said light, like flowers getting the sun, which sends sunlight containing all colors. Each soul reflects different colors based on their purpose for God putting them here, like flowers can be yellow or purple or red, etc. We are not the light but depend totally on it. Colors are actually a specific reflection of the Light of God via His Grace. The light itself isn't just red, but a red reflection can be seen. And for us, God *is* most definitely more moral than any creature; no contest. He has no faults whatsoever. If you consider the Catholic explanation of God, you will find him much different than the inventions of the human mind based gods, all which have defects of humanism in them, like adultery, revenge, etc.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 8:56 PM By JLS
The sponsor of my Confirmation was the late Sebastian Temple. Raised by Anglo parents in S. Africa, he later spent twenty years as a Yoga in India. He converted to the Church there. I only had a few conversations with him, and we did not discuss religion, but Catholic spirituality. My present view of pantheons of divine beings is this, that most great civilizations jump started these pantheons from animism. Jewish history is rife with battles against these pantheons both external to themselves or sprouting up now and again. The difference with Catholicism comes through the truths revealed to Her by God, such as the Trinity, Jesus, the Kingdom of God here and now, and others.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 8:58 PM By Anne T.
Yes, Fr. M.P., the pagan gods and goddesses, whether Hindu or those of Europe were just deified human beings with all their sins and failings. There was a story in Northern Europe of how one of the gods came to that country in a boat as a baby. Supposedly he did many good things for the people. Later he was celebrated as a god.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 9:11 PM By JLS
Catholics voting their conscience have to include episcopal teaching. There are no bishops saying Obama is not an abortion promoter. There are a hundred bishops saying he is and should not be voted for on account of it. The Pope is saying that no Catholic may vote for a candidate promoting abortion. One hundred bishops have affirmed that there is no proportionate reason to overcome Obama's abortion stance. So, to say that Obama can be voted for if the intent is something other than abortion is only self deceit and attempted deceit of God. The economy is not a proportionate reason regarding abortion ... there is no such proportion because abortion stands alone with its homosexual partner gay marriage. Both of these are heinous to God and to mankind. Odd how so many people here a politically correct phrasing in a situation where it has to be or the law would intervene ... and then they carry it into the public where no such law can touch it ... yet they behave as though they would be in jeopardy were they to utter something like Obama is the devil's agent, and a vote for him condemns the one voting for him. There is no legal restraint that can be brought against me for saying this. And since I happen to see it this way, I am protected legally by the U. S. Constitution. The reality of politically correct is that I am and those who are are not. They dismiss the Constitution whereas I make use of it ... Thus they are politically off the wall in tyranny land. But they like it there because it gives them the feeling that they can bring back some to the daily grind and grind others under their pc thumbs. We need all of us to throw off these subtle shackles and vote with the conscience of Christ, to save babies and families, which the hundred bishops and Pope have risen to defend.
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Posted Monday, November 03, 2008 11:37 PM By Gandhi
Fr.M.P., the Bible and the Gita are the same. The significance of any "major difference" is in reverse relation to the perceiver's capacity to understand. *** JLS, Hindus likewise enjoy revealed truth, and they have opinions.
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Posted Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:04 AM By Fr. M.P.
Gandhi, in *no way* are the Bible and Gita the same. While at the surface both are "holy books," the source of the information it totally different. The Bible is the revealed word of the Trinitarian God, and not man's opinions or the result of his corrupted reasoning. The Gita is merely man-made thoughts, although the claim is otherwise. How do we know that? In the Bible God has correctly predicted His coming, thousands of years in advance, and He fulfilled His own prophecies to the letter. No other religion has any prediction of it's own God coming that has been fulfilled. Yes, the perception affects understanding of the reader, but the understanding will never be right if there is corruption in the original source. 'gods' with faults are not true.
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Posted Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:39 PM By Gandhi
Fr.M.P., Hinduism does not deny your perception, but accepts it for what it is. A white light seen through a prism appears as different colors. Take away the prism and look directly. There is no corruption in the original source. The "corruption" arises from the prism.
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Posted Tuesday, November 04, 2008 5:01 PM By JLS
The problem with your argument, Gandhi, is that it contradicts what Jesus says. He says, eg, that He is God. This is history. It is similar with Islam, which claims some respect for Jesus, yet accuses Him of lying. Perhaps you need to look up the meaning of truth, and study it. Perhaps it will break through to your heart, soul, and mind; perhaps not. *** As for toying with both me and Fr. M.P. with your abstract symbols ... this reveals your dishonesty. You should have realized that these symbols are only that, efforts to establish a conversation. But perhaps Hinduism is symbolic, and this is substantially not the case with the one institution established by God, which is the Catholic Church. If you want to argue, you will lose since the Church has developed argument. If you want to learn, then you can if you stick with it. If you want proof beyond faith, pray for it ... but miracles are not so common. Faith is the ticket.
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Posted Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:14 PM By Sister Joan Clair
I've read every post and mostly what I am getting out of it is that if one chooses to be Roman Catholic (or have that choice made for you by family) that one understands that the church will always dictate what one votes. And wears. And opines. And...and...and.. God gave me a conscience too, and I have to vote it, whether it falls in line with Rome or not. I have faith that God understands science, and I believe that only God knows what's in my heart. I'll take my chances with that. I guess I'll have to resign my membership soon. Oh, wait, I already did when the sex scandal broke. Sign me one disillusioned worshiper.
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:40 AM By Mark from PA
Sister Joan Clair, try not to be too discouraged. Our love for Christ and share in His body and blood will keep us strong. Strong enough to put up with the haters. I recently found out that the priest that taught me Religion for 3 years in high school was a predator. I had to put up with his haughty attitude and his disdain for me. But knowing now what he was I suppose I was lucky he didn't like me. Try to keep the faith Sister Joan Clair.
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:24 AM By Fr. M.P.
Gandhi, so gods with faults are considered truth, and a God who is perfect is considered just a perception? 'gods' with no one knowing ahead of time that they will come to visit are truth, yet the only God to predict and fullfill His prophecy is merely perception? 'gods' known only in a book is truth, yet one who came to earth and performed physical literal miracles is only a perception? History is just perception yet a book written by men is considered 'god'? Why? *** Sister Joan Clair, perhaps you forget that Rome must be inline with God, as is true for all humans. What particular sin(s) do you wish to commit that "Rome" will not give you permission for is the one which you decide to leave the truth for folly, while blaming Rome as an excuse? Yes, God knows. Read Psalm 68.
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:43 AM By Dai Yoshida
Sister Joan: God did not give you a conscience. Conscience must be formed. You would know that if you were a properly educated Catholic. Clearly you left the Church without bothering to find out what the Church actually teaches. You condemned the Church based on hearsay and anti-Catholic slanders. It's sad that you've read every post here and only derived from them caricature of Catholicism. You are in my prayer. May He have mercy on you.
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:34 AM By Mark from PA
God bless you Sister Joan Clair. Try not to be too disillusioned by the prejudice and hatred of some in the Church. I too am heartbroken by what many in our Church have done to innocent children and how many of these innocents have been driven from the Church. Think of Our Lord Jesus and how he spoke out against the scribes and the Pharisees. Let the Mass and the presence of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist give you strength. You are needed in the Church.
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:25 PM By Gandhi
Fr.M.P., if it's your view that there are "gods with faults" and "gods known only in a book", that "God is considered just a perception", etc. then those are your perceptions. Hinduism does not deny your perceptions. Hinduism accepts them for what they are. A white light seen through a prism appears as different colors. Take away the prism and look directly. There is no corruption in the original source. The "corruption" arises from the prism.
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:38 PM By Eileen
Mark from PA, The San Diego City Council can't ignore the fact that Prop. 8 was voted in a second time! You have betrayed the trust regarding the protection of traditional marriage and the unborn. You claim to be so heartbroken about innocent children and you also never miss a single opportunity to express your childhood memories of a mean priest. Catholics have even expressed sympathy for your situation. Where is your compassion for unborn children? Now, you claim to be disturbed that you have just recently found out that this same priest was a predator. Mark, there is medicine readily available for individuals suffering with dual personalities. Maybe you are not aware of it but one of your personalities just voted the greatest predator into power. All predators are evil Mark. All of the babies who will be slaughtered with Obama's promise to enact the Freedom of Choice Act will "never" get the opportunity to express themselves as you have. Your support for a dissident sister is also inconsistent with your other personality who claims he is a Catholic. Maybe there is hope that you might develop a third personality who can influence and convert your other personalities.
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