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Published: April 4, 2007
Bewitched Catholics
“I think there are like evil energies and entities out there. I'm concerned that if she opens herself up to those kinds of things that there is a potential of ..."
“I believe in one God, one Goddess, and in Jesus, who was a ‘great person.’”
Such might run a Catholic/Wiccan creed, if a six-year old boy, Sean’s, confession is representative.
Sean Nettleton of San Leandro is not entirely comfortable with his mother being a witch, said a March 28 East Bay Express article, though his younger sister, Lizzie, a “free thinker” and “wild girl” (according to their mother, Tina Nettleton, 37), is proud of her mother’s paganism. Sean, though, is apprehensive “to display his “Pagan side,” because of his father.
His father, Chris Nettleton, 38, is Catholic.
But Chris is supportive of his wife’s “religion.” For her witchly initiation two years ago, he bought her a ceremonial broom. The family home has several pagan altars, and, last year, Tina bought pentacle pendants for her children (crosses have since been added). Sean, though calling himself a “Catholic Witch," took his off before starting kindergarten at a Catholic school.
Wiccans, who form the largest Pagan group (claiming from 300,000 to 1.2 million members in the United States) can choose any gods or goddesses for their devotion. Tina goes for a Buddhist deity, Tara. Tina grew up Catholic.. Both she and Chris belonged to the youth group at St. Leander’s church in San Leandro, which Tina liked, because, under the musical direction of liturgical composer Bob Hurd, the parish had liturgical dancing.
But Saint Leander’s grew more “conservative,” and, besides, Catholicism never “empowered” Tina, in part, because of its belief in a “male God.” Finally, Tina spent a Sunday with a Goddess circle. "She came back really enthusiastic and really enjoyed it and it felt like she was in the right spot," her husband said. "That was neat to see."
Chris admits having felt “weirded out” by his wife’s religion. His Catholic experience was good --- he had been an altar boy, youth group counselor, and a Eucharistic Minister, though he now does not attend Mass regularly.
The Wiccan view of God “weirds” Chris “out.” God is not “benevolent” for them, he said. “I think they kind of embrace both, more like the Hindus do with Kali and there's destruction. So that's really difficult for me." His wife’s double-bladed, ritual knife (used for “cutting sacred space”), kept on the altar in their bedroom, “freaked” him out.
But Chris has gotten into the pagan groove, somewhat; he has, for instance, taught Sean to say, “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Goddess.” But not everything is groovy with him. "Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing and watching The Exorcist one too many times," he told the Express. "I joke, but there's some seriousness because I think there are like evil energies and entities out there. I'm concerned that if she opens herself up to those kinds of things that there is a potential of ..."
Here he drifted off. But completing his thought, he said, "so I have to trust that she's going to take every means necessary to keep us safe."
Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:11 AM By Ted Packer
This is a sad story about people who do not understand the god concept at all. We do not choose our gods. God exists entirely apart from our feeling on the subject, and God chooses us. We don't just make it all up as we go, as this woman is doing. The Creator reveals himself to humans, and they either embrace their Creator or reject that being in favor of personal fantasies. There are consequences to rejecting the Almighty, All-knowing, All-powerful God--as this woman will be finding out in countless ways. The Creator does not get mocked by his creatures. Rather, he does with them as he pleases.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:29 AM By Anna
To everyone who reads this article-please PRAY for this family!!! Thankyou.
By Thy Holy and Immaculate Conception, Oh Mary Deliver Us from Evil- Amen
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:36 AM By Kenneth
I was once a practicing pagan. I have since come to know that all pagan "dieties" are false gods...or rather, evil spirits. I had a miraculous conversion from my pagan beliefs and came to know the Truth...that God has given us a real family. God the Father is the head of this family, through His Holy Spirit he gave us a Mother, Mary...and because of this He gave us a Brother and redeemer...Jesus Christ! We have EVERYTHING we need...A Father, A Mother and A Brother...and a Holy Spirit that unites us all! I will pray for Chris and Tina and their children! I pray they will have a hunger for the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and pray they come to understand the great danger they are placing their family in. I am still to this day fighting to keep the demons I opened myself up to, because of my pagan days...out of my life.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:52 AM By John
You are either for me or against me.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:11 AM By Paulette
If your wife wanted to keep you spiritually safe, she would not practice wiccan. Its quite simple. She is opening doors to evil spirits just like the little boy did when he played ouiji board with his aunt and became possessed. The movie, The Exorcist, was based on this TRUE story. Playing ouiji board, practicing wiccan, tarrot card reading, etc., are all the same things and go against the teachings of Christ. You can't be both: Catholic and wiccan.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:15 AM By connie
Chris, I really hope you read this and take it to heart. As I have told my own children- embrace your Catholic faith thoroughly before you even attempt to embrace any other. I myself was a fallen away Catholic until, by the grace of God, my hunger for the Truth led me back to my childhood faith. I learned as much as I could and realized that most people, like me, are abashedly ignorant of much of the beauty and Truth the Catholic faith posesses. It was like unearthing a hidden treasure that I would now, never ever trade for a lesser treasure. I believe that if ALL Catholics could hunger and seek the Truth then there would be no more "fallen away Catholics". I have to say that when I began the Divine Mercy devotion, it fast-tracked my faith growth and I believe it was because of the many graces I received after going to confession, then receiving communion on the Feast of Divine Mercy. Someone prayed for me though, to begin to hunger/thirst for the Truth. And I will pray for your wife and you. Also, if your wife could embrace all of the Blessed Mother's attributes, I don't think she would ever again look elsewhere for a more powerful woman or female advocate. There is no other more powerful female in the earthly or spiritual realm than our Blessed Mother. Jesus Christ our Lord himself has said he cannot refuse his Mother any request. Pray that you and your family may come to be in the fullness of the Truth, ask St Joseph to assist you and Our Lady to assist your wife and children. You will then see wonderful things begin to happen if your prayers are consistant and sincere. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit Bless you and yours, may St Joseph and Our Lady guide your precious little family to become a holy family protected by all of heaven.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:16 AM By Maggie
This poor father does not realize the danger he is putting himself and his family in. The whole wiccan movement is to end fatherhood and thus belief in the trinity. He is under a spell. Please pray for him and his son Sean!
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:23 AM By Anne
This family is in my prayers. God bless them with conversion and protection, especially for the children.
Please know that the wife will not be able to keep her family safe without God. She has already opened up her home to evil.
I would really like to read some serious commentary by an orthodox Catholic priest about this story.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:32 AM By ZAROVE
This is just an exampel of selfish interest.St.Paul mentions this. Men, and women, turning away fromt he truth to listen to teachers who give them what they want to hear.
All this tlak of empowerment, and how one needs a female diety, and how one wants power, all centres around what they want, choose, and desire, not what is true, benificial, or right.
The family above seems uninterestedd int ruth, onky in what makes them feel better.
Likewise, they shape there perceptions around claims that give them a false degree of power, rather than findign he beuty int he truth.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:45 AM By Stephen
This goes to show that making a bad choice when you marry has eternal consequences. I can't imagine going along with a spouse that wants to be involved with witchcraft. If I was the husband, I would investigate the possbility of annulment as a way to protect the children and myself from being drawn into Satan's influence. This article shows that there might be an impediment on the part of the wife that makes the marriage invalid to begin with.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:14 AM By Lourdes
This is why I go to Holy Mass daily and pray for 'us all' so that we do not fall into something like this...we need Graces fro God to fight evil, we need to remember that the devil tempted Christ, and He is God, so the devil is always tempting us and we do not see or know ...we need to pray at all times and go to Confession often, at least once a month if not more and receive Holy Communion in the state of Grace...doing all this w/o being in the Grace of God is useless...Confession, Confession and the Eucharist, Receive Holy Communion and Adoration of His Real Presence in the exposition of the Holy Eucharist...try It, It is out of this World....
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:57 AM By Margie
Such confusion out there! Have nothing to do with the ways of darkness...
"He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:14)
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:04 AM By John
The more we deny God the closer we are to a nuclear world wide war
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:12 AM By lucy
If this poor former Catholic man knew the depths of evil he has allowed and encourage to enter his home and family.
He will be responsible for the pain and sufferings of his family not being a good steward and father to his children by allowing his wife to delve into the occult.
May God bless them with wisdom and grace to see the truth of the Holy trinity with no other God in there.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:23 AM By Marguerite
If this man, Chris, would just read his own comments, perhaps he would wake up and protect his family. He repeats over and over the words, "weirded out/freaked out" etc.Does he have no trust in those personal impressions? Of course not, he's been trained to be "tolerant" of his wife's "choices" and he's been emasculated by our culture into a position of stupid passivity. So much so that he will not even protect his kids from the evil influences that he knows are present. Satan is cleaver but he really doesn't need to be much anymore. So many Catholics, in the dubious name of "tolerance", will allow the devil free rein in their own minds and hearts, not to mention their bedrooms!
This situation is only made worse by the lack of real preaching on the topic of evil and sin; on the topic of what Catholics really believe; on the topic of God's punishment, justice AND His mercy and on the deep truths found in Holy Scripture. Catholic are ignorant and their leaders do not seem to be doing much about it. " My people perish for lack of knowledge" (of God, not science or psychology or false religions)...but knowledge of truth.
Most Bishops do not have exorcists in their diocese because they, themselves do not believe in the presence of a "real devil or Satan". Thus begins the downward spiral of so many souls into the pits of hell. (Oh, yes, hell is taboo too!).
Until Catholics make a new choice to wake up and smell the evil in their mists, the devil will do whatever he wants and take as many captive as possible in the process.
Ignorance and stupidity are a choice. Tolerance is a disease. Satan uses all three to trip up millions as he happily escorts their everlasting souls to hell for all eternity.
St. Michael the Archangel, Defend Us in Battle,
Marguerite
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:38 AM By David
You cannot be Catholic & practice witchcraft at the same time. This is heresy. It appals me when these things happen. Catholic Bishops should step up to the plate in condeming this. Fr. Corapi had one of his talks where he said the West Coast is affected by widespead heresy and even some communities have embraced New Age. Though I live here in MD on the East Coast, I pray hard for a renewal in the West Coast, particularly when the Rosary Bowl occurs.
Then again, anything goes in California.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:59 AM By Mark
How sad this story is, first that Catholics have fallen away from the Faith and embraced paganism and occultism, that they are indoctrinating their child into their sin, and that this article gives the appearance by the way it is written that this is okay. Wake up Catholics - Satan is alvive and well and is thriving on our ignorance of our Faith.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:17 AM By Mary Louise Raab
PRAY TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER ( 20 DECADES OF THE ROSARY) FOR THIS FAMILY to SEE THE EVIL THEY HAVE COME TO ACCEPT IN THEIR SPIRITUAL LIVES AND INFLUENCING THE LIVES OF OTHER INNOCENT SOULS TOWARDS A PATH OF ETERNAL DESTRUCTION !!
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:48 AM By Theresa
And for this the whole world will suffer!
And more importantly, Do you not realize that you and your family are persecuting Christ! For every sin committed Christ bears it. This emmence EVIL is torturing our LORD!
How horrid a story especially during the Lentin Season
When We recall His Passion and Death.
How can a Father knowingly be apart of and allow his children to share in actively Mocking Christ !
THe three persons in God are , God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit! There is no worse an offence
than that against the Holy Spirit! (Christ has sad so!)
Chris, you must understand that you as the father are responsible for your children!
And you will be liable for the loss of their souls!!!
Do you love your children?
Then how could you allow such an abuse ?
You are willingly sending them to Hell
to be tormented eternally!
But, they will not be alone for you and your wife shall occupy
the same place!
Christ is most merciful and compassionate, it is never too late to turn towards him (I suggest Run as fast as you can!)
And ask for forgiveness (Confession!)
God is waiting for you He never gives up!
Today is a good day to run to Him, for sins such as these
is why He came for all of us! He suffered and died, yes, Chris
even for you!
Let this Lent and Easter I pray, Be a new awakining in you !
For, to be of this world and all worldly things, is sure and absolute death.
To be of and for Christ is sure and absolute Life Everlasting!
May Gods LOVE be with you and I ask the Holy Spirit
to STIR your soul awake!
Theresa
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:06 AM By Garry
Usually these things have to go a full circle of sorts. God will allow a curious sheep to stray into the wilderness to see the wolf face to face yet snatch it back when it's shocked to awareness of the danger. If this family is essentially good they will at some point awaken to their waywardness.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:23 AM By Linda Alicea
Why do women always talk about being empowered, what does that mean anyway? Tina, God told Moses, "I am that I am". Tina, He loved us so much he sent is Son to earth to die for our sins, what a merciful God, to me that is empowerment, because without that gift we would all be doomed. Yes, I am calling God a Him does that make me less empowered or Him less Almighty? Chris you have a responsibility to your family....maybe you need some empowerment...because it sounds to me like your wife has it all right now, she's given herself to Satan and he does have power to deceive and take us to hell with him. My heart aches for you and your family because He is deceiving even you with the cavalier attitude you are protraying. Our lives here on earth is short but eternity is forever. Chris pray to Mother Mary that she will lead you and your family back to her Son. Her prayers for us are very powerful. God be with you and give you the wisdom to lead your family back to God.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:30 AM By Jennifer
Paganism is actually trying to weed its way into the holy Catholic Church by way of the "progressives". The "Wiccan-Catholic" or "Catholic-Witch" thing is unfortunately common. There are many nuns and "progressive" parishes that believe in and/or practice eco-spirituality. There are so many sisters that are reiki masters- sometimes obtaining their reiki certification at new age centers. Of course they do not call themselves pagans, but they flirt with paganism. In Louisville Ky there is going to be a public catholic/"earth-wisdom" fest called Earth Spirit Rising. It's new age. At least 18 religious orders and parishes are listed as patrons or friends of this upcoming event. This is so common. That's why I'm not surprised by the article. The "progressive" movement, which includes paganism like this article mentions, tries to change the church from the inside out. It's so common, I'm afraid things like this might lead protestants to think this is the true face of Catholicism (God forbid!)
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:21 AM By Athena Grey
I support this family for raising their children to know both Goddess and God, and whatever choices the children make upon their majority will be informed ones. I hope they will retain the tolerant and inclusive perspectives of their parents.
While Wicca is a modern religion, the roots of paganism are truely ancient. There are many paths to the Divine, and I honor everyone's right to find their own way.
Blessings!
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:23 AM By none of the above
1) wiccans and pagans do not believe in satan. satan is a concept created by the christian church, a religion founded on binary oppositions of good/evil, god/satan, heaven/hell.
2) playing a ouija board will not make you posessed. that's just plain silly.
3) while many pagans are supernaturally oriented (just as catholics and christians are) many simply are looking for a rational, reason-based faith that acknowledges the beauty and importance of the natural world.
4) i really don't think pagans are trying to "infiltrate" and "undermine" the catholic church - from the outside, it seems like the post-vatican 2 church is actually beginning to recognize that there's a world outside its walls, and it needs to be politically, socially, and environmentally aware in order to function in a modern world.
5) pagans don't proselytise, pagans don't tell people they're "going to hell" and pagans don't condemn others for their own personal beliefs. you don't have to agree with what others believe, but it's just plain nasty to tear people apart for their personal choices.
just give it a rest already. all we know for sure is that we're here on this planet, and we're here together. let's learn to love and respect each other, even so far as to dine with the "sinners" and forgive the condemned... just like that one radical rabbi in the years 0-33. i think y'all call him Jesus.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:25 AM By Mary
It is outrageous that St. Leander's church allows the wife to be part of the youth group, when she openly mess with the devil. It is a thing to have a bad influence on your kids and another to influence others kids. Our church need to get a firmer grasp on these New Age, Wiccan things. It has influenced our monasteries and convents, now it's getting to our kids. The spirit of antichirst is doing his job well, corrupting everyone with paganism, with so much tolerance in our church. May the Lord have mercy on them all. Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:26 AM By Lokari
--Chris is supportive of his wife’s “religion.” --
Wicca is a religion every bit as valid as Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. A respectful writer - regardless of his or her opinion of Wicca - should not put quotes around the word "religion" in this context.
The intent behind showing a photo of ritual knives, but not a ritual cup (which looks remarkably similar to a Catholic chalice) is so transparent as to be laughable.
Catholics, of all Christian sects, should be accepting of Wicca. After all, Catholic priests practice exactly the same kind of magic when they perform Transubstantiation.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:33 AM By Kimberly
I found this article entirely too one sided. Perhaps the author should have done some research.
The woman chose a religion that didn't deny the existence of the divine feminine while still worshiping it. Have any of the Catholics out there actually paid attention to the rosary? It's an entire prayer devoted to a Goddess, Mary. Perhaps if the Catholic church read it's own scripture in the original Hebrew it would realize that the Hebrew word for God has no sex.
Wicca is not evil, it doesn't even allow for evil in the tenants. The first of which is "Harm none."
Also, Wicca does not aknowledge the existence of Satan. Hell, as the modern Christian church paints it, does not exist for a Wiccan.
The Divine being has no name. Even Jesus Christ, according to mythos, said one doesn't need a church to talk to God. Why can't people accept that, for some, it isn't always their conception of God that's talking back?
As long as she doesn't neglect her children and raises them with a balanced view of religion, there's no problem here. The original article stated that both parents offer religious instruction. The situation is no different than if a Buddhist and a Christian or a Jew and a Christian, or any other combination of religious beliefs, entered into marriage.
Keep it fair and balanced pleased, or don't call yourselves journalists.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:43 AM By Lindsay
Good for Tina, and good for Chris for trying to understand! It is hard to break away from what we're brainwashed to believe throughout our lives, and he's making an important effort. The discomfort is understandable, when people have been taught to believe that Paganism is evil, and to fear anything that tells them otherwise.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:49 AM By Libertarian
As a Pagan I can only say that it doesn't suprise me that you folks refuse to accept the free choices of other people. Be happy in your faith but please allow others to be happy in theirs.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:53 AM By interestedone
This is a great step in the right direction, I'm so pleased to see a family of tolerance. May the Goddess guide and bless their paths.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:56 AM By Morgan
You poor people REALLY should read up on something before bad-mouthing it. This was an extremely poorly-written article that did NOTHING to describe what Wicca and Paganism in general are all about, and you're just fanning the flames by making ignorant statements. PLEASE go to www.religioustolerance.org and LEARN about it before you indulge in religious hysteria. Just an FYI for the Christian folks, "Satan" or "the Devil" is a deity in YOUR faith, NOT Wicca. Sorry to inform you that Wiccans do NOT worship any such creature. Instead we revere, NOT worship, the Earth and Nature as creations of our God and Goddess. Some Wiccans worship only the Goddess, some others like myself worship both. Most WICCANS (I cannot speak for "secular" Witches) do not resort to spells and magick unless it is truly necessary and then we must follow our Wiccan Rede, which is quite literally "Harm None." Any Witch who does NOT follow this is NOT a Wiccan.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:05 PM By Larry
Your hatred of our ways only goes to show how weak your own faith is. We wiccans have much more important things to do than "infiltrate" or "corrupt" a religion who's very roots lay in paganism and pre Christianity. My faith and my gods decree that I respect your beliefs, though you continually attack mine, but I will leave you with this thought. According to your own scripture, all humanity is flawed, and as a result, your God is the only true judge. Yet still you take it upon yourselves to judge others. How can you expect to have any clout when you constantly break and reinterpret your own rules. Our scripture, "And it Harm None, Do What Ye Will" may not hold the pomp and circumstance of other faiths, but at least it is clear, concise, and unlikely to be manipulated for selfish and hateful purposes. I pray you will learn compassion and acceptance of those different than yourselves. Blessed Be.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:11 PM By Linda
I am making this comment with the knowledge you will most likely not display it since you seem to only display the "Christian" comments.
Firstly I find it laughable that someone would decry someone for praying to a Goddess and then pray to Mary.
Secondly I find it incredibly closed minded for members of a minor religion (sorry but Christendom is not as large as Islam or even Buddha) to think that everybody else has it wrong. How can one group of millions of people, think that other groups of millions of people have it wrong while all those other groups are just as sure that their way is right and you are the ones that have it wrong.
It is shameful behaviour I see here on this website. I have never been treated to such rude behaviour in my life. I guess that's just the religious right Fanatics at work.
Peace.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:23 PM By Bernard
Some here have said that they'll 'pray that the Wiccans find Christ'. Are you really happy about praying that someone lose their faith? I hope that it doesn't work, should someone pray for you in a like manner. Tell me: how many of you have had your children taken away because of your faith? How many of you have lost a job because of your faith? How many of you have come home to find smashed windows, burned funiture on the lawn, and 'DIE CATHOLIC' spray-painted on the front door? How many people have then called the police, only to be summarily ignored because someone told them (incorrectly, might I add) that they 'worship the devil' and 'eat babies'? Most of us are pacifists. We're not your enemy; in fact, if you were in need of shelter, or food, or clothing, we'd likely be among the first to offer it, without asking about your faith. Given all the hateful comments here, I don't have a great deal of difficulty seeing who's faith is the more 'honorable'. Do you?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:23 PM By Gregorian
Am I the only one who caught the name Bob Hurd. He's the guy we have to thank for 1/3 of the crap music in those horrible Oregon Catholic Press music issues. (Another third is by disgraced, gay, "married", priest Dan Schutte. The Final third is by various Jesuits, ex-nuns, and three traditional hymns) Classic that Bob Hurd -- God forgive him -- was so influential in the Wiccan lady's life.
The real tragedy of this story is that the local Church failed these two people so utterly. They both should be well within the fold. They were church goers and participants in Parish activities. The woman was obviously searching for something. Christ in the Eucharist should have been the end of her search. But I'd bet my left leg she never once heard the True Presence explained in a homily. I'd bet the other leg there was no Adoration. She obviously wanted ritual. But I'd bet the Mass she was going to had been stripped bare of processions, incense, bells, reverent elevation, beautiful vestments, and good music. The husband is an even bigger tragedy. He was involved to the point of becoming a Eucharistic minister. And yet the true faith as it was presented to him by Bob Hurd and the like didn't captivate him. It's a tragedy.
Down with Hurd! Down with Schutte! Down with the OCP!
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:26 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Dear Pagans,
Of course Catholics don't respect your beliefs, because we think they are wrong. One cannot respect error anymore than one can love a disease.
By the way, we Catholics don't pray to Mary as a goddess but as a human, albeit the greatest human, intercessor.
To say we're wrong about your worshipping Satan because you don't think you do is silly. A doctor may determine that what you think is just a beauty mark is skin cancer --- and your protestations to the contrary change nothing.
And I don't think you all are real pagans. Real paganism is a dark and horrible thing, filled with elemental and fearful spirits that betimes demand human blood to be appeased. Even the relatively benign Teutonic pagans appeased river gods by casting babies into flooding waters.
Your paganism doesn't demand such things. Or does it?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:29 PM By Margie
"And it Harm None, Do What Ye Will"
Was that not the mantra of Eve in the Garden as she disobeyed God and obeyed the lying snake Satan? Hmmm. I want to do what I want to do whether or not God has forbidden it.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:48 PM By Rita
Granted, most Wiccans believe they help themselves, other people and creatures through the use of magic. Magic tends to suspend or defy the laws of nature and interfere with free will whereas prayer makes a request and patiently waits for an answer. Miracles can suspend or defy the laws of nature also but discernemnt is sometimes needed to tell the difference.
I hope Chris's discernement gains strength. Just by reading the article about the family, you can see deception, division and confusion. The only thing left now is destruction and Satan will have been victorious over this family. I will keep them and all witches whether pagan or satanic in my prayers.
I used to think there was a difference between black and white magic. The intentions may be different but the source of all magic is Satan.
Wicca seems to be a modernized and sanitized version of old pagan practices. I think most Wiccans truly believe, "And harm none." however they can cause serious harm to themselves and those around them, by naively "allowing" evil to enter into their lives by breaking spiritual laws.
I also think it is silly for some women to feel empowered because of goddesses instead of the Male God of Christianity.
Here's a newsflash for you. We do consider God as a male figure because Christ called Him Father. If you stop and think about it, God the Father doesn't really have sex organs, he is a spirit. He didn't have to procreate the way we humans, do.
I do not feel less being a woman because I worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I don't needs gods or goddesses created in my own image.
Pax Christi,
Rita mshancock10@yahoo.com
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:52 PM By ravenstone
There can be no middle ground or understanding, when those on one side of the conversation choose to see in black and white (as opposed to the true colorful world we live in) - while at the same time accepting "whole-hog" the line of "bogey-man" type fear that the Church has used to keep the faithful in line lo these many years. The comments from the faithful here make the point for me, so I'll leave it at that; except to say that if people choose to live in fear, and want reassurance from the "powers that be" - that's fine with me. I'm just happy (at least for now) that those same earthly Ecclesiastical powers don't have the legal power to burn and torture us Witches as they did in the past! Where's the Love?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:53 PM By Irene
Mary, Lindsay, Lokari, and the rest of the Pagan contingent:
1) Mary is not a Goddess, but a true servant of God. When we pray the Rosary, we're asking her to petition God for us, just as a child might ask his mom to ask his Dad for something.
2) We do not see God as male or female. God has no body and therefore can't be either. We do, however, see God as paternal, as, by the way, do the vast majority of the ancient and tribal religions of the world.
3) Religion is a response to the mystery of life. Wicca is not. It seems to me, based on your own posts, that you've have created a religion that conforms to guidelines of the modern world. Tolerance (in the modern sense), no proselytizing, non judgmental, pluralism, relativism, creedlessness. Wicca is not an authentic response to the mystery of our existence, but a contrived combination of Modernism and Feminism. And it wasn't created by druids in Ireland 4000 years ago but by feminists in the 20th century seduced by the idea that they were oppressed, and obsessed with creating some kind of alternative feminist reality.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:57 PM By Pale Ryder
As a Pagan Chaplain in a high security prison one of the other Chaplains I get on best with is the Catholic one. He freely admits the Church took over most of the substance of the local Pagan deities and just gave them a makeover (try looking closely at many of the saints origins!). Also have a look at the way Genisis in the Bible explains Divinity into form. However, understanding and thinking seem to be something fundimentalists of all spiritual paths from Animism through to Zoroastrism seem to be sadly lacking in. Look at how fundimentalism of all types decreases when techniques of critical thinking are taught, such as in a University/degree education. Also consider that it takes someone with a degree level education to fly an aeroplane, but only someone with a high school diploma to fix one.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:57 PM By Carol
I was raised in a church that was abusive, worshipped an evil, bullying, mean-spirited, abusive, extorting, rapacious, and narcissistic god in which I was abused and violated in every way possible - spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, and even sexually (the last when I was *six years old*, so I wasn't a seductive whore who was secretly in love with the priest I didn't even know who tried to rape me). That demonic religion is the Roman Catholic Church. I would not subject a dog or my worst enemy to such bizarre and destructive hogwash. I achieved salvation from this evil church and its evil deity through belief in the Goddess. I pray every day that Catholics will realize how they have been duped, brainwashed, and abused by a power/control obsessed institution and that they will leave their enslavement. Jesus is OK, but Christianity is monstrously evil.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:01 PM By Elizabeth
Christopher, the OT God demands a good amount of blood sacrifice. But obviously Christians today have moved beyond. Modern pagans have done the same. What exactly was your point?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:05 PM By Lokari
"I don't think you all are real pagans. Real paganism is a dark and horrible thing, filled with elemental and fearful spirits that betimes demand human blood to be appeased." - CZ.
Such ignorance almost takes one's breath away. CZ would be well served to research the topic before spouting the tired old "pagans eat babies" hate mongering nonsense. Paganism covers a broad range of religions, including Native American beliefs, Shinto, Santería, Vodou and many, many others. Modern paganism absolutely is real paganism, by any reasonable objective definition.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:10 PM By Ezri Shanks
Dear Christopher,
We do not believe we worship Satan, because we have taken the time to study and understand our religion. Perhaps you could benefit from some of that.
When you say 'paganism' what are you refering to? Wicca? The Ancient religions of tribes that have been known for their cruelty? They are two very different things, and no real Wicca would ever 'cast babies into flooding waters'.
Catholics don't demand such ignorance and rudeness. Or Do they?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:10 PM By Kat
Dear Catholics,Of course we respect your beliefs, because their yours to have and we care little for any more then that. Why don’t It saddens the Great Mother (Or Mary.. same thing) that you choose to deny that right to others and then seek understanding. Ok, your right I’m wrong, it’s makes her laugh at the irony and we all laugh with her. I commend this man as accepting and loving his wife as she is. You speak of a powerful love and here I speak to tell you of the most powerful love between a family, of two people joined as equals in a team effort ( no matter the gender) who at times make the decision as a pair to conquer the great and rewarding glorious battle known as children rearing! Onward!
And I have to say I know you guys as Catholics go through a lot for your faith (Ireland anyone?) So to the previous poster, Catholics did go through a lot to be what they are, unfortunately these people (not Catholics as a whole, notice the lack of stereotype that seems evident here.) seem to forget that.
You don’t have to believe what Pagans do, nor do we or anyone HAVE to believe what you do. You don’t even have to respect the religion. You do, have to respect the person’s rights.
We are real pagans, I hug them trees tight and you can’t say that we aren’t since you don’t know what’s in our hearts. Recognize your limitations and realize your will attract more bees with honey then vinegar.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:15 PM By Kimberly
Ancient Pagans made sacrifices, true. So did ancient Jews and Christians, and many others, I'm sure. That was then, this is now. To use your reasoning, Christopher, you saying that real Paganism is a dark and horrible thing, doesn't make it so. Judge not, lest Ye be judged. You don't know what Wicca is all about, you don't have any facts, just misrepresentation. If you want to know what a faith is all about, ask someone who practices that faith, don't rely on information from someone or something opposed to that faith. And we don't ask that you believe what we do, simply that you acknowledge our right to our own faith. And we insist on raising our children in our faith, the same way you do. That is our right. I pray to Deity that you will one day be able to live your own faith truly, by loving your neighbors (not just the ones like you, Jesus never qualified it that way) as yourself. Blessed Be.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:18 PM By Sue
I was raised Catholic too, and it didn't take for me either. Now I practice Wicca, too.
My mother, like many of the "good Catholics" who have posted here, would be quite pleased to burn me at the stake, take my children and attempt to brainwash them, as she tried and failed with me and my siblings.
But ... She only gets mean like that when she's off her medications. She's bi-polar and/or schizophrenic. When she's taking her meds, she's like my father and the vast majority of Catholics, tolerant of those who have found another path.
So, all you Pagan-folk who are rattled by the postings of the bigotted minority, rest easy. They don't speak for all Catholics.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:19 PM By concerned
Christopher Zehnder, "Real Paganism", as you describe it, is nothing more than the propoganda put out by so-called Christians, who bear false witness. Sure, there have been past indigenous faiths who have had human sacrifice. There have also been peaceful indigenous faiths.
Saying that I am not a "true Pagan" because I do not practice dark and horrible things, is the same as my saying you are not a "true Catholic" because you are not a priest who molests children. I fully realize that priests who molest are a minority, and have "sinned against God", and I do NOT judge all Catholics or priests according to these few "bad" ones. I ask that you give me the same courtesy in my faith.
For a true idea of what Paganism is, please visit:
beliefnet.com and/or
religioustolerance.org
Thank you.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:26 PM By Gothique
I find it very disturbing that there is so much misinformation going around in the catholic religion regarding Wicca - of all the christian groups, I always thought that perhaps catholics were the most well informed and educated.
There is no evil in Wicca. None whatsoever. I understand the opposition because being a former catholic I do remember being taught that all other religions - even the beliefs of other, non-catholic christians - are false.
But please do not buy into the lie that Wiccans worship satan or conjure demons. Truthfully we don't even believe satan exists. Demons, either. How can we worship that which we do not even believe exists?
Our God and Goddess are no different that your God and Mary. We pray, do devotions, and give and receive love through them. We do not shed blood, as ritual sacrifice is not part of our religion. Indeed many of us are vegetarians because we believe in the sanctity and beauty of all life. Our beliefs are not very different from yours.
I can not return to the catholic church (and no longer wish to), but I posses the openess of mind and conscience to acknowledge that catholicism has many elements in common with Pagan religions (Wicca especially). All we ask is that you be as open minded to our beliefs as I am to yours, and not be so quick to believe the lies that have been circulated about us.
Blessed be.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:28 PM By Raven
When I became a Pagan, I was met with such cruel hostility that I was truly taken aback. And the main source of this cruelty? My Roman Catholic parents. I can understand how, in the beginning, they were "worried about the fate of my soul" and didn't want me turning to a "dark side," but Spirit is such an important part of me, and I believe wholeheartedly that people can make their own intelligent, mature, rational choices about their religion and their beliefs. Therefore, I have come to respect their Catholicism, regardless of my being a Pagan, and what am I met with? Papers to disown me. Coming from a faith that is supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus -- tolerance, acceptance, LOVE -- I was met by hostility and was pushed so far from my family that I have no idea whether or not I will see them again. And this is a faith based on Christ's teachings? If anything, I think the Nettletons are not only doing the right thing by teaching their children more than just what's in their Catholic bubble, but accepting the mother and her children for WHO they are, and not WHAT they are.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:28 PM By Raven
When I became a Pagan, I was met with such cruel hostility that I was truly taken aback. And the main source of this cruelty? My Roman Catholic parents. I can understand how, in the beginning, they were "worried about the fate of my soul" and didn't want me turning to a "dark side," but Spirit is such an important part of me, and I believe wholeheartedly that people can make their own intelligent, mature, rational choices about their religion and their beliefs. Therefore, I have come to respect their Catholicism, regardless of my being a Pagan, and what am I met with? Papers to disown me. Coming from a faith that is supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus -- tolerance, acceptance, LOVE -- I was met by hostility and was pushed so far from my family that I have no idea whether or not I will see them again. And this is a faith based on Christ's teachings? If anything, I think the Nettletons are not only doing the right thing by teaching their children more than just what's in their Catholic bubble, but accepting the mother and her children for WHO they are, and not WHAT they are.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:30 PM By Amy
I will limit my comments to a complaint against poor journalism, as I don't feel that I am qualified to try to explain paganism to a group of people who have been brainwashed for 2000 (well 1500) years. This article, like so many others, took only a few comments out of context to promote their own dishonest agenda. Chris didn't say anything 'freaked' him out...Tina did, and it was obviously said in humor. Please see the East Bay Express under the title “Raising Pagans” on March 28 of this year for the full, (4 page) beautifully written article about a family who is practicing a 'Christ-like' way of life, teaching their children about love and tolerance, not fear & degradation. Please, please do your own research and learn to THINK for YOURSELVES! You are human individuals, NOT SHEEP! Your “Satan” or “Devil” has only been around for 2000 years; there have been Witches (of many sorts, rarely evil) for eons prior. Blessings.
Editor's Note: A quotation from the article in question
"Yet Chris had some deep reservations about his wife's new spiritual pursuit becoming a way of life. Like most Catholics, he'd grown up with false notions of Pagans as devil worshippers. 'I was a little freaked out and weirded out by it and was not happy,' he said."
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:33 PM By Christopher Zehnder
I base my ideas on paganism from reading accounts of Teutonic, Greek, Roman, Carthaginian, Native American beliefs. These ancient paganisms were violent affairs; and this is not to be wondered at, for they worship the gods of nature. Nature is sometimes beautiful, sometimes benign; but she is also capricious and brutal.
One person noted that she hugged trees. Why?
The OT God did not demand human sacrifice; in fact, the Mosaic law specifically forbade human sacrifice. Of course, one could cite the "no prisoners" mode of warfare in the OT; but Catholics, not being fundamentalist literalists, don't claim that such accounts necessarily say anything about the nature of God or, even, about the character of what happened in those ancient epochs. What is clear, for the Catholic faith, is that such accounts provide no moral imperative or permission. The Church has always condemned the killing of the innocent and her God has never demanded human sacrifice.
Further, if paganism no longer includes human sacrifice, why doesn't it? Were the ancient pagans wrong? Are modern pagans wrong? Who can tell?
To the Catholic mind, following St. Paul, the elemental spirits worshipped by pagans are demons, whether the pagans think they are or not. You can deny what St. Paul said, but we can't. So, you needn't be surprised if we call your gods demons.
Finally, paganism has always been more tolerant of Christ than Christians have been of paganism. And the reason is simple. The Christian faith is based on the notion that there is truth, that it can be known, and that it is absolute. We, believing in one God, for instance, have to say polytheism is error. Polytheism, to the degree it only acknowledges a multiplicity of gods, is pluralistic, and, hence, more tolerant. But such tolerance is merely smiling mask covering a most woeful despair. The despair of skepticism.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:35 PM By Lokari
Irene wrote: "Religion is a response to the mystery of life. Wicca is not." Clearly, this is the opinion of someone who has not taken the time to educate herself about the subject. Wicca is very much a response to the mystery of life. That it takes a different approach than the mainstream faiths in no way makes it less valid as a religion. "It seems to me, based on your own posts, that you've have created a religion that conforms to guidelines of the modern world." Here is an illustration of the danger of basing one's opinion of an entire religion upon a handful of messages. After all, someone judging Catholicism by the posts written here might (incorrectly) condemn the entire RCC as being an engine of intolerance and hatred. "Wicca is not an authentic response to the mystery of our existence, but a contrived combination of Modernism and Feminism[...]" Wicca is indeed an invention of the 20th century, which draws on many sources modern and ancient. So what? All religions are contrived and invented by humans. Christianity is old. Again, so what? When it was a mere 50 years old, was Christianity not a valid faith? So is Wicca today.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:36 PM By Christopher Zehnder
I might add, that, finally, unless one accepts the notion that truth is absolute and can be known, one cannot insist on tolerance. For to say, "you should be tolerant of my beliefs," can elicit the very rational response, "why?" And to such a question, the skeptic can only remain silent.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:43 PM By Gothique
I find it very disturbing that there is so much misinformation going around in the catholic religion regarding Wicca - of all the christian groups, I always thought that perhaps catholics were the most well informed and educated.
There is no evil in Wicca. None whatsoever. I understand the opposition because being a former catholic I do remember being taught that all other religions - even the beliefs of other, non-catholic christians - are false.
But please do not buy into the lie that Wiccans worship satan or conjure demons. Truthfully we don't even believe satan exists. Demons, either. How can we worship that which we do not even believe exists?
Our God and Goddess are no different that your God and Mary. We pray, do devotions, and give and receive love through them. We do not shed blood, as ritual sacrifice is not part of our religion. Indeed many of us are vegetarians because we believe in the sanctity and beauty of all life. Our beliefs are not very different from yours.
I can not return to the catholic church (and no longer wish to), but I posses the openess of mind and conscience to acknowledge that catholicism has many elements in common with Pagan religions (Wicca especially). All we ask is that you be as open minded to our beliefs as I am to yours, and not be so quick to believe the lies that have been circulated about us.
Blessed be.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:54 PM By Lea
As a woman who grew up in a Christian community never feeling this amazing presence of God that so many others claimed, I was self-abusive. I asked that Jesus come into my heart many times and save me. Did he? No. So I tried to commit suicide because, well, I was going to hell anyway. Then I developed an eating disorder when my attempts at suicide falled. Through all this, I was trying to do anything that would make me worthy.
Then I began studying other religions. I was reading a book on Paganism when I read a line that changed my life. It told me to look around (my parents lived in a rural community). That was the church. To see all the living things around me. These were the brothers and sisters. In those stunning moments, I felt the touch of divinity for the first time in my life. The God and Goddess were calling out to me. I found more peace in those moments than I ever had trying to follow the god of Abraham.
Just because you believe your way is the only way, doesn't make it so. There was religion and civilization long before your book was written and your beliefs began forming. It's sad that so many of you can't see that maybe, just maybe, it ISN'T YOUR PLACE TO JUDGE.
Now, I'm done with one last thing. I hope that this family is able to make an even firmer base of sharing their faiths and that their lives may be blessed. Take it from a Pagan woman who is with an amazing Christian man. We have our seperate beliefs, but we have a beautifully blessed life. He supports my beliefs as I do his. May they find the peace that we have.
And may all of you who are spouting this hate and anger reexamine your holy book and see that Jesus's teachings were about LOVE. Brightest blessings.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:11 PM By Shawn Blackwolf
There is an important distinction,which needs to be addressed here;There always was a reason the Goat was
associated with the Pagan Religion.The Goat is independent,and thinks for itself,without giving a flock what
others think;The Sheep,on the other hand,( who says it is the "right hand"),need a Sheep Herder to guide them and protect them; They live a herd mentality,and will stampede anyone their Sheep Herder,or his representatives,tell them to;Therefore,the Goat must take the High Ground,and watch the Sheep follow their Sheep Herder from the Mountain,where we can see the big picture,rather than the narrow view...Forgive them,for they know not what they do!However,the Pagan Law has changed,in that to "Dare,Do,Be,And Be Silent",regarding our prescence,must now become"Dare,Do,Be,And Be Salient",which means to stick out...Our Time is come;The Return of Mgieck,is upon us...It is the end of The Age of Religion,whether Pagan,Christian,or any other.....This would,and will,frighten many in any religion,as it means taking full responsibility for one's actions ;To the Christians this would mean the end of "The Devil made me do it";Pretty scary,isn't it?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:26 PM By Irene
Lokari: You're right, religions are usually formed by people, organically, naturally, as they answer the question of their existence. The Catholic faith was founded by Jesus Christ who claimed and proved himself to be divine, the true son of God. Wicca is a religion contrived and founded by people with a seduced by radical feminism who wanted to have a religion that matched their pre-existing feminist ideals. Instead of religion forming belief, belief informed religion.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:41 PM By Lokari
"The Church has always condemned the killing of the innocent and her God has never demanded human sacrifice." - CZ
The church may have always condemned the killing of the innocent, but has often been remarkably flexible in defining who is innocent, and who is not. The history of the church is rife with inquisitions, witch hunts and crusades.
The god of the OT didn't demand human sacrifice, true. He was plenty good at carrying out monstrous acts on his own. If the OT is to be believed, countless millions of men, women and children were slaughtered at the command of god.
Frankly, I don't care if Christians are tolerant of my faith or not. But I do wish certain Christians would educate themselves about my faith (and their own!) before making ignorant comments.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:07 PM By LOURDES
I think the parish should look into Chris being a Eucharistic Minister and a youth counselor. these positions have great responsibilities that come with them.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:15 PM By Opus the Poet
Ah, yes. The snake in the Garden of Eden who told the truth and was branded a liar because he differed from (g)od. your god said eat the fruit and you shall surely die, the snake said you shall become as gods, Adam and Eve ate and did not die, in fact by the scriptures he lived 998 years after that. The Bible says god made everything in 6 days, and using the geneology of Jesus as a time frame was done about 6000 years ago, but how to account for the dinosaurs, which if they existed 6000 years ago would have surely drawn some commentary in the Bible. So if the Bible story is correct then your god created the earth full of lies to make it seem older, or perhaps the lies are about the real age of the earth?
So, getting back to the snake, who was it that lied, again?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:16 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Lokari,
Bravo for your refusal to call for tolerance! It is such a week, palsied thing.
The Catholic Church makes a distinction between what individual Catholics, including churchmen, do and what the Church teaches. Thus, a Catholic need not think any inquisition or crusade or witch hunt was just, and the Church has never insisted that the decrees of churchmen, including popes, have to be accepted as just and right by the faithful. If they were unjust (and I think each case has to be judged individually), they will be judged unjust by Church teaching, which forbids killing the innocent.
As I noted above, the Church does not necessarily hold that what is recorded of God in the OT is necessarily history in the modern sense. Church fathers have often favored an allegorical interpretation of such passages in the OT. In any case, Catholics don't take the Bible alone as an authority; and the Church has always condemned the mass killing of noncombatants. She has never thought the OT passages in question were in any way normative for morality.
My question would be this: Catholics can appeal to a teaching authority in the Church, even to judge the actions of churchmen. To what can pagans appeal? Nature certainly seems to make no distinction between the innocent and the guilty. What we see in nature is survival of the strongest. If yours is a nature religion, why don't you adopt the ethics of nature? Why worry about the innocent?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:17 PM By The Rev. Sparrowhawk
I have read the original news article in its entirety. I think it's wonderful to see a family united even though their religious beliefs differ greatly.
However, I am very disappointed in the narrow views and discrimination of some of the readers here who make horrible suggestions that the father pull the children out of the family to protect them from Wicca. If the father were to try and do that he would certainly lose in a divorce proceeding for being a bigot.
There are many other posts where people are trying to convert others or force their religious ideologies upon the readers of different faiths. This is wrong in more ways than one and only creates a further divide between the Christians and the Pagans. Go to the following site to learn how to PROPERLY share your faith with Pagans:
http://www.homestead.com/barbooch/Gospel.html
You will find out why Pagans don't take too kindly to being preached at and how best to approach us.
I will not use this posting to argue religion or philosophy. There really is no point as you will see by going the above mentioned website. The main problem Christians have with trying to convert Pagans is that Christians often try to use Christian scriptures to make their point. What these people do not understand is that Pagans (Christo-Pagans are an exception) do not recognize the Christian scriptures since it has absolutely nothing to do with Pagan beliefs and traditions.
Many Christians do not realize that they are only creating anger and distrust when they push their agenda and make negative comments about our beliefs. We understand why the Christians do this. They believe that they are saving us from their place of eternal punishment that they call 'Hell'.
Bright Blessings,
The Rev. Jasper Sparrowhawk
Church of the Sacred Moon
Selah, WA
)O(
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:22 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Mr. Blackwolf,
There is no shame in being a sheep when one's shepherd is God, the Omniscient, Truth itself. To think for onesself when that means thinking contrary to truth is, to put it mildly, stupid.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:42 PM By Black Knight
"The Christian religion is a very powerful and convincing mistake, that's all." Philip Pullman, The Amber Spyglass
Now that that's out of the way, I have this to say to my fellow Pagans: These loony christians are never going to listen to reason. They haven't done so when their mythology was plagiarised from Pagan religions, they haven't done so when Gallileo directly contradicted the Sith Lords in the Vatican by saying the Earth is spherical, and they're not doing so in this comment thread. It's pointless to argue with about two billion half-wits who jumped off a bridge "just because all our friends are doing it."
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:15 PM By Sophia
This article has stirred up the Wiccan hornets to a degree that can hardly be spontaneous. One doubts somehow that
they are regular readers of California Catholic Daily, It looks to me like an organized posting campaign. May it do them good; may God help find their way out of the pernicious web of Wicca and on to the road homeward.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:21 PM By Ani
I hope that this young husband will grow more open minded as he learns more about his wife's religion.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:24 PM By Klarynn
The one thing we all need is to take a breath... sit down over coffee and talk. Wiccans are loving mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers in your community. A major component of my tradition is to embrace and honor the faith of others. Our world is in the very throughs of war and we bicker like little children.. "My faith is better than yours!"
No matter the form of God, They would not want us to treat eachother with anything other than love and respect. I am enriched in my life by the friendships I have with Catholics, Wiccans, Druids, Hindus, Buddhists... and look forward to learning about more religions.
If we all walk in the light there will be no darkness to cause us fear.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:26 PM By Kate
...and, Mr. Zehnder, to think that any single tiny human being on this tiny planet can fully account for the wonders of all Creation and the vastness of the universe and claim EXCLUSIVE understanding of THE TRUTH (with a capital "T") is nothing short of arrogant and self-delusional. Sadly, as is all too evident here, humility in the face of these wondrous mysteries is sorely lacking among many. Your stubborn refusal to allow for the validity of the religious experiences of those who don't share your views speaks more to your own narrowness of vision than to any real limitations regarding the nature of God (indeed, there is no gender exclusivity to "I AM WHO AM"). Wise was the person who said to "respect the seeker of truth. Run like crazy from those who are convinced that they've found it."
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:39 PM By fiber7angel
Pray, Pray, Pray for those who practice paganism. The father of this world is the deceiver and he lies. It is very simple, black (evil) or white( good). The choice is ours and eternity is forever.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:48 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Kate,
If one is to be a seeker of truth, the presumption is that he can find it. But if no "single, tiny human being" can ever find the truth, what's the point of seeking it? But if one can find the truth, then it is not prima facie arrogant for anyone to claim to have it.
My "stubborn refusal" to acknowledge the validity of certain religious experiences stems from the fact that I think them contrary to religious experiences I believe are true. It's really quite simple logic. To the degree of my certainty, if I believe X to be true, and Y contradicts X, then I must believe Y to be false. If I believe the Catholic faith is true, and Wicca contradicts that faith, then I must think Wicca false.
Of course, you reason thus, also. You believe certain things true --- yes, you do, don't deny it! --- and you think what contradicts them false. Hence your sonorous censure of myself, who am so sorely lacking in the humility which you pagans display with such impressive effect.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:54 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Sir Black Knight,
Thou'st tilted awry. The Holy Office did not object to Galileo because the latter said the earth is spherical but because he said that the earth revolved around the sun, not the sun around the earth. As thou wilt readily see, who art so great a lover of reason, sphericality and the revolution of a heavenly bodies be very different concepts. The gentlemen of the Holy Office drew, forsooth, their astronomy from Ptolemy, who said the earth is a sphere.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:09 PM By catholic seminarian
Holy Cow...! -What am I in for?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:30 PM By Kate
Mr. Zehnder, when it comes to seeking THE TRUTH about God, I am under no delusion that, as a human being, I will ever be able to fully comprehend such a marvel. I CAN, however, keep seeking, keep asking questions, keep learning, keep trying to get closer to that Divine mystery. For me, the lack of an absolute answer does not, as you seem to believe, invalidate the process of asking questions. On the contrary, it tends to make one less lazy, less complacent - less likely to stop trying to do more, learn more, and become a better human being (and less likely to be ruled by the dictates of any formally organized religion run by other fallible human beings). How many of the people attacking pagans and censuring the family in the article have ever bothered to read their entire Bible for themselves, let alone the holy books of other belief systems? Yet they easily dismiss worldviews about which they are wholly ignorant. Why? It's easy. It demands no independent investigation, no effort to get to know and understand other people, no deeper critical thought about why they believe what they believe (which sadly, for many, is simple habit - i.e., it's what I was raised with). For me, being raised Catholic provided many good and beautiful answers about how to live my life - but ultimately, it has not provided them all. The goal of my journey in faith is not to arrive at a neat, pat answer identified as TRUTH. Indeed, perhaps the journey itself is the point. This is what I believe to be true - I have never denied otherwise. I'm not willing to give up on God simply because I don't find any single set of current human concepts of God as I know them - Christian or otherwise - to be complete. The world as I experience it is not the neat, black and white place you seem to perceive it to be. It is rich and complex with shades of gray. I do find it very interesting that you automatically label such a view "pagan." I think I shall devote some time and energy to discovering why...
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:30 PM By John Barleycorn
"...founded by people with a seduced by radical feminism..." - Irene
Um, Irene, can you point to writings, interviews, or *anything* from Gardner that would indicate he was "seduced by radical feminism"?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:35 PM By Black Knight
By the way, the loonies can find what stirred the proverbial "hornet's nest" of honest Pagans by seeing this link: http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detail.html?id=17595
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:53 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Kate,
I do not automatically label your view pagan. In fact, I used the term skepticism in an earlier post. Some pagans have believed that one could know truth, such as Plato and Aristotle. Modern pagans strike me as just modern skeptics in ritual wear. They have the modern despair of truth which they try to drown in what they perceive to be mysticism. But they have despaired of reason.
To say the journey is the point is to ignore that the point of a journey is a destination. If you can never know truth, how can you be journeying towards a knowledge of truth? It's like someone who says he is climbing a mountain to reach the moon. He is not. He only thinks he is.
The Catholic faith does not say that one can know God as He is in Himself in this life, though in the next life, through union with the Divine, men will be able to see God as He is. In this life, however, God has revealed Himself in iconographic concepts which are true, if only analogical. For instance, we can know God is good, though we cannot know the goodness of God. We know, however, that what we define as good is an image of Him. We can also know that He is one, omniscient, a Trinity, etc.
The path to God, however, is not through enlightenment so much as by purification. Indeed, in this life, knowledge serves the purification of charity, though the goal of charity is knowledge of God in the next age.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:53 PM By Athena
I am a former Catholic, now a Wiccan. My husband is a Catholic Charismatic. We see no difference between me doing healing magick and him doing laying on of hands. The charisms of Charismatic Catholicism also happen when we communicate with our Gods. How many Pagan Gods and Goddesses were converted to "Saints" so that the people could still worship them? Did St. Francis of Assisi not preach caring for the Earth and honoring all of nature? There's a lot more commonality between Paganism and Catholicism than the Catholics really want to admit.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:58 PM By Connie
I am a convert to the Catholic faith. It took me no time at all to see that I had come home. Most of my life had been in a search for truth and I was relentless. What I discovered was that most people don't understand the Faith, in fact not even Christianity. We do not worship Mary. We ask her to pray with us. Jesus told us to love all and to NOT compromise our Faith. " Be ye hot or cold or I will spew you out of my mouth." We are to worship one God, the Lord God. Deuteronomy chapter 18 is a good Old Testament Scripture in which He clearly states what we need to avoid. I have never felt unimpowered. Christian women are raised up in Scripture to be "cherished " by their spouses and respected by their children. I am bapized in the Holy Spirit and Jesus uses that power in me daily. I am a daughter of my Father God Almighty. I inherit the Kingdom. The family has my prayers.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:09 PM By Raven Owl
For those that want to read the WHOLE story... Follow this link
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2007-03-28/news/raising-pagans/1
mystically.. its 5 pages longer then this one...
For all those Catholics that think Wicca is Evil.. do some research for the Love of Mary..
this is a just lame of this website to edit the story this much..
brainwashed? yes I think so..
they dont want you to have the full story... of course they dont.. its more Pagan friendly... do some research jeeze...
If you dont want to be brainwashed.. then do it your self...
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:14 PM By Kate
Mr. Zehnder, when it comes to seeking THE TRUTH about God, I am under no delusion that, as a human being, I will ever be able to fully comprehend such a marvel. I CAN, however, keep seeking, keep asking questions, keep learning, keep trying to get closer to that Divine mystery. For me, the lack of an absolute answer does not, as you seem to believe, invalidate the process of asking questions. On the contrary, it tends to make one less lazy, less complacent - less likely to stop trying to do more, learn more, and become a better human being (and less likely to be ruled by the dictates of any formally organized religion run by other fallible human beings). How many of the people attacking pagans and censuring the family in the article have ever bothered to read their entire Bible for themselves, let alone the holy books of other belief systems? Yet they easily dismiss worldviews about which they are wholly ignorant. Why? It's easy. It demands no independent investigation, no effort to get to know and understand other people, no deeper critical thought about why they believe what they believe (which sadly, for many, is simple habit - i.e., it's what I was raised with). For me, being raised Catholic provided many good and beautiful answers about how to live my life - but ultimately, it has not provided them all. The goal of my journey in faith is not to arrive at a neat, pat answer identified as TRUTH. Indeed, perhaps the journey itself is the point. This is what I believe to be true - I have never denied otherwise. I'm not willing to give up on God simply because I don't find any single set of current human concepts of God as I know them - Christian or otherwise - to be complete. The world as I experience it is not the neat, black and white place you seem to perceive it to be. It is rich and complex with shades of gray. I do find it very interesting that you automatically label such a view "pagan." I think I shall devote some time and energy to discovering why...
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:32 PM By MA
At the end of each of our journeys, Mary, our Blessed Mother, will present us Jesus, Her Son, as she presented Him to the world by the power of the Holy Spirit by God's plan and accepting in faith what she did not understand immediately. She will ask each of us if we accept or reject HIM. Based on how we have lived our lives is how we will respond. If we are in the realm of evil, we will not be humble enough to reach out because our religious pride blinds us to evil or the devil or sin. WHAT WE PRACTICE MAKES US WHO WE ARE for GOOD or for EVIL, whether we like it or not.
Jesus & Mary, I command all spirits of evil, devils, demons, poltergeists and infesting spirits to be bound and silent and to leave me, my family and all those with whom I come in contact. Send them where they belong throughout this day and night. May your angels guard us, your HOLY SPIRIT be with us and your loving presence surround us. Amen!!!
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:34 PM By Raymond
All religious debate aside, I applaud this family for working together. It's not always easy for any multi-faith family to find harmony. Often times it isn't the people themselves, but rather the narrow vision of others that cause discord. As a Pagan, (with a Catholic wife) I can appreciate their situation. I wish them the best of luck. After all this is said and done, they will find out who their true friends are.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:59 PM By Shadowbear
Pagans have one major difference from christians - we believe that we are going to be held personally responsible for what we do (the rule of 3). Christians are supposed to believe that too (sow the wind, reap the whirlwind; as ye sow so shall ye reap) - but they have taken "salvation" instead of personal responsibility. If I remember my bible correctly there is something about - before you point out the mote in someone's eye, remove the beam from yours. For a religion that has taken their holidays - christmas, easter, all saints day, candlemas, etc and their saints - ST. Brigid, and their story about being killed for the good of their people - look at Bran or the "spilling blood on the ground" for the good of the land and the people. Christianity is not the first god story to incorporate the same elements. The old testament even has animan and human sacrifice - did not god order Abraham to sacrafice his son?
Wiccans do not call on devils, demons or the christian Satan. They do not believe in those entities. The christians are not in any danger from Wiccans (or other pagans for that matter) and should actually believe in god who is very capable of handling those who are transgressing without any help from us - and, christians, your bible says that very thing - vengance is MINE sayeth the lord - NOT YOUR PROBLEM in other words. Have faith and look to your own problems as we look to ours.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:10 PM By Kate
Mr. Zehnder, when you addressed me in the conclusion of a prior post, you most pointedly said “you pagans.” I responded to this statement accordingly. To say that pagans have “despaired of reason” and “drown in what they perceive to be mysticism” does nothing to distinguish them from fervent believers of ANY faith system with which one disagrees (presuming, of course, that your own worldview = “reason”). Re: the journey being the point, I am simply acknowledging my belief that in this earthly life, I will never reach a destination that I will label TRUTH. Only God has complete knowledge of TRUTH, and I do not aspire to be God. The most I can do is try to get as close to God as possible. Your statements re: what you “know” about God are naturally based on your particular faith, and that's no bad thing. Re: the divine, we all believe what we believe on the basis of faith, on what we honestly perceive to be true based on our own genuine life experiences. Why, then, should we attack/deride each other on matters of faith? What makes one person’s experiences of God more valid than another’s? You cannot know for certain, any more than I, that you are not “climbing a mountain to reach the moon” in your own way. Finally, your statements re: men being able to see God as He is reflect one of my primary sources of alienation with the faith of my birth. Clearly, this God is male and meant primarily for men. The Church hierarchy demonstrates it. Women are second-class citizens, an afterthought of creation (was Adam originally going to reproduce by mitosis?). I simply don’t buy it, and no amount of proselytizing from anyone of any faith will convince me otherwise. For me, God transcends gender.
Thank you for sharing your views. Would that we could all do so with respect and a genuine desire to understand (as opposed to a desire to convert or condemn). Work is calling...may everyone on this board (and elsewhere!) receive the blessings of the Divine!
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:14 PM By Christopher Blackwel
As a Wiccan of some twenty plus years, I guess I wonder what either side hopes to accomplish. Obviously neither side will listen much if they are busy creating their next attack or their next defense.
I watch these battles go on in some many religious forums and it is discouraging to see to level of hatred and mud slinging that it often gets to.
I find no need to argue, I have absolutely no need to defend or attack. My religion proves itself in my life as I would assume everyone else's does. That is the only proof that matters.
I believe one of the things this life is about is to learn the lessons the deities present us with. They do not force us to learn, but they are very patient and will continue to present each of us with the lessons until we finally learn, no matter how many life times it takes. May all of you see the lessons and learn your own.
Blessed Be,
Christopher
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:23 PM By Raven Owl
Ya im sure this will get deleted.. my last post was .. but let me try this again
The full article is at http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2007-03-28/news/raising-pagans/1
read for yourselfs.. and see what was edited out of this poorly writen article
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:27 PM By Tricia
Interesting how these comments are written on "spy Wednesday". On the day that that Satan entered into Judas.
While these posts sadden me, I know the end of the story...thank God. And I pray for those who still have time to realize the end of the story.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:28 PM By Ahria
This article is one-sided and prejudice. Don't worry though, I'll pray to the Goddess for all of you "Catholics", and ask that you be forgiven for your hate and bigotry.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:30 PM By R.A. James
As a former Catholic, and a Wiccan priest since 1992, I am more than sympathetic to the viewpoints mentioned in both the article and the comments... with the exception of the concern that all the "Wiccan hornets" have been stirred up. This article displays quite prominently from a search of Google news on the term "wicca". There's no conspiracy. I want to point out to all readers that there is no desire on the part of Wiccans to "end fatherhood", overthrow the Church, or cause the destruction of families. I won't bother trying to convince those already disposed to believe otherwise. I can only saw that you will know us by our acts, the very same way that we will know Catholics. So let us all be mindful of this as we decide how to approach each other.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:43 PM By Sasy
If you flirt with the devil he for sure will come and take posetion of what is his. Take care and God, the Holy Trinity guide you out unharmned.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:46 PM By Sasy
If you flirt with the devil he for sure will come and take posetion of what is his. Take care and God, the Holy Trinity guide you out unharmned.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:35 PM By Lotus
FYI:::Those of you who are "praying" for conversion or (g)od's intervention do not realize that this is a CURSE.
This is a very left-handed action.
A wiccan would never curse or harm someone in this manner.
How would you all feel if we "prayed" for you to lose your faith via one of our (g)ods?
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:58 PM By Rev. AMY
Goodness. The author of this article seems rather fond of quotation marks.
I do think it's insulting to put religion in quotations when referring to Wicca as such. The author may not agree with the life choice of someone who is Wiccan, but that doesn't mean that they are entitled to be demeaning.
I'm sure they wouldn't DARE do that to Judiaism, or Islam.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:37 PM By elsie
Is there nothing us prideful humans won't do in the name of personal "empowerment" or "self-realization", which are simply deceptive words used to justify a puffed-up, out-of control ego? The Great Deciever's best disguise is to make us believe the polar opposite of everything. Bad is good, ugly is beautiful, vanity is self-love, arrogance is humility, disempowerment is empowerment, the list goes on... I've been there and done that, the good white witch thing, nature momma, healer, visionary, prophet, redeemer of feminine spirituality, etc.; all along not knowing I was playing right into the hands of the most destructive, loveless, male chauvinistic pig in the Universe. What got me there was my own false pride, an ego run amuck....Thank God, my Catholic roots saved me. I realized that the most beautiful, most feminine, most liberated, most nature-loving woman in the Universe is the Virgin Mary, the Divine Mother of God. In honoring Her and allowing her to help me find the way to her Son Jesus, God Incarnate, the Author of all Creation, I learned to love and respect myself, others and all created life. Look to the Holy Family, the purest example of love, committment and humility and there you will find our merciful and loving God. Our Holy Mother is crying for you, her Divine Heart is breaking for her lost children, and she is begging you, her runaways, to come home. Do not let your delusions, false pride and arrogance get in the way. As children of God, take your power back, the power you have given, perhaps unwittingly, over to the enemy himself. And remember, it is Mary, Mother of God, who crushes the head of the Serpent, and is triumphant in the end.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:43 PM By Arion the Blue
As a practicing WIccan and Druid for over 20 years, I've seen the interfaith situation described in the artlce repeatedly. What amuses me the most is how most Christians -- Catholics included -- freak out over a religion not much different than Buddhism. If you examined our theology and our philosophy instead of denouncing our religion out of hand because of your own misconceptions, you might just find out why, suddenly, 1.2 million people in America found a home in the arms of the Goddess. The talk about evil and spiritualism and (gasp!) feminism obscures the fact that we have found a spiritual strength through Paganism that the Church, in all of its guises, could not provide for us. Jesus said "Love Thy Neighbor". He meant ALL of your neighbors, not just your Christian ones. You have Wiccans in your neighborhood: welcome them as brothers. You'll find we make good neighbors.
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Posted Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:18 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Kate,
If what my faith says about God contradicts what your faith says about God, they can't both be true. They must either both be false or one only be true. They can't both be true, unless you want to deny reason or say, simply, that God cannot in any way be known by us in this life. But if He cannot be known, then there is no point in searching for Him. It's a pointless journey.
But if He can be known, if only imperfectly, then we can entertain the idea that one person's ideas about God are true and another's false. If He cannot be known, then nobody's ideas about God are valid. In fact, no one should say anything about God at all, if He cannot be known.
God has no sex, though we speak about Him in masculine terms. But to say that, because we speak of Him in masculine terms, He is meant primarily for men doesn't follow. That's like saying the father of a family is meant primarily for his sons. Fatherhood is just as much fatherhood to daughter as to a son. So, God is just as much God to a woman as to a man.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:47 AM By Michael
Do you know what? I was raised Catholic. I grew up in a good church that I attended every Sunday. The Priest was a nice man, the services were good, and everything was hunky dory, but I didn't find God. I asked Jesus into my heart repeatedly, but I didn't find God. When I found Wicca, I found God. It was unexpected and unplanned, but I found something that resonated so strongly with truth and love that I could not ignore it. Do you think that Deity (being all powerful and stuff) could have many faces that we as humans just can't entirely understand? That said, I'd like to address a few things: 1) This is a very badly written and one sided article that does not display the complexities of the Wiccan belief. 2) Wiccan belief IS complex because it is a modern incarnation of Traditional Witchcraft (by Traditional Witchcraft I am refering to the actual base religious trend for many sects of witchcraft including Streghe, Scottish/Celtic, and Greecian traditions, which based on anthropological evidence aswell as common folkloric trends more than likely predates Christianity.) 3) Wiccans know that when Catholics pray to Mary, they aren't praying to Her as a goddess; however, we, in general, regard Mary as being a Christian incarnation of the Goddess. Since some of the posters on this board have been so kind as to point out that just because one doesn't believe in something (like the devil), it doesn't make it any less real, It should not be contested that Mary is an incarnation of the Goddess (and it doesn't matter if Catholics don't believe that She is). 4) I find it incredibley ironic that many of the commenters on this message boards are praying to the trinity, which is originally a pagan concept. If the mystery of the trinity (meaning the concept of deity as being manifested in a triformis) comes from God and is a truth, then obviously pagans have a relationship with God (by whatever the name) and have found a truth. -Goddess and God bless-
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:50 AM By Carol
Funny how y'all have conveniently forgotten about Paul's reference to the "Unknown God" worshipped by Pagans that he refused to disrespect. It is that deity that we modern Pagans also worship. This article presents inaccurately a Wiccan/Catholic mixed-faith family doing the right thing. Yet this article: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299, DRMN_15_5461547,00.html depicts a Catholic family selling out their child in the name of their parish life, faith, church, etc. after he was sexually assaulted by a RCC minion, something nearly all families touched by clergy sex abuse did because they were trained to be compliant slaves, willing to give the RCC *anything* it demanded of them. Hilarious Catholics here attribute our fighting back to "demonic activity" expected on the Wed prior to Easter - try looking at Wren's Nest - the link was posted for being of interest to Pagans. We are not shallow - it was my reason that saved me from Catholic-driven suicide/despair. RCC wanted me to abandon reason to be one of their permanent victims/drones. Your Imaginary Friend marked me for destruction from a very early age, demonstrating his true hate. Oh, & don't pray for me or any Pagan - that's like commanding us to visit our rapist over and over & ask for more rape, more violation of our very souls. An act of the blackest magic. No thanks. Feeling that Catholic "love", that ruthless compassion that overcomes the zealous every year at this time. If that's "love", I'd prefer indifference. To ensure that you won't pray for me, I commit here the unforgiveable sin (by your rules) of blaspheming your holy spirit, I spit on it, it can go fork itself, it can go to its own hell. Your god says "Worship me,me,me or I'll torture you for all eternity" - any being that childish & extortionist deserves contempt, not worship. My Goddess never commands worship, but welcomes partnership in Her nature. Hmmm, evil brat god or unconditionally loving Goddess? Easy choice for me!!!
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 5:43 AM By Leigh
Chris, take the red pill and WAKE UP! Jesus never even existed historically. Nazareth wasn't established until 100AD. There was no crucifixion, no ressurection, none of the alleged miriacles are recorded by either the Romans or the Jews. There is no Jewish custom of releasing a prisoner for Passover, no record of a prisoner named Barabas. Catholics have taken just about every ritual element they use today from ancient indigenous forms of worship -- including their holidays. Just take a look at Easter for. The name itself derived from the same root word as estrogen, because it was a fertility celebration at the Spring Equinox. Where do you think all those bunnies and eggs came from and what does that or estrogen for that matter have to do with a rising dying god? The mythos of which is not new. Look in the stories of Dionysis, Osirus and Woden all dying, resurrected gods. The Catholic Church and Christianity as a whole are failing.Your clergy rapes and molests your children, pilfers your funds and practices homosexuality in private while extolling the evils publicly. And to use the tired old concept of self righteously excusing yourselves from responsibility of this? You are the ones putting the money in the collection plate to support these atrocities. Without the people who practice the religion, it would cease to exist, just like the Shakers. So I hold you completely accountable for the transgressions of your Church. If Paganism is about anything it is about reverence for the sacred cycles that are our lives. It draws on the ancient traditions practiced around the world the rising and setting of the sun, the phases of the moon, and evidenced by things like New Grange and Stone Henge. Christianity has no such basis. It was formed on a foundation of lies and blood and greed. Your god is the one who demands sacrifice -- he sacrificed his own son in your mythologies and you cannibalize him every week. Take off the blinders, you've been duped!
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 5:45 AM By Anna
I am also a former practicing catholic and I loved my experience but it never felt like there was any place for women except as handmaidens and I didnt find that empowering. Now I am a pagan and I can say that there arent all these evil spirits flying around ready to take you over, thats so hollywood! I dont believe in a devil and if you knew his history you wouldnt either. Please dont crititcize what you dont understand. Even the Jews had Ashera.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:11 AM By Elizabeth
You cannot possibly limit an omnipotent, fathomless Being to what one faith alone says. That's rather insulting to the Creator of all that is.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:18 AM By Beth
"Wicca is a religion contrived and founded by people with a seduced by radical feminism who wanted to have a religion that matched their pre-existing feminist ideals." - Irene
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Irene, Wicca was founded in 1939 by a British civil servant, Gerald Gardner. It was, in fact, rather skewed towards the masculine as leader, NOT the feminine. American feminism didn't find it until at least 20 years later, across the sea. Read a history book sometime.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:45 AM By Linda
Do Wiccans believe in abortion? Just curious
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:52 AM By Wendy Chiles
I am astounded by the fact that most of you are so ready to judge things you do not understand. I also grew up Catholic, but realized at a young age that this was not the religion for me. My reasons are many, but I will only state a couple here...
- Christianity is NOT the oldest religion practiced on Earth, Hinduism is. Why is Jehoviah the only God if he isn't even the oldest?
- The Bible is not the oldest religious text, but yet we are told it is the only "Right" text. Read the Egyptian Book of the Dead also, it is older.
- The Christians, like most conquering nations or religions, took most of the Pagan holidays and turned them into their own. Christmas = Yule, Halloween (Yes, a Christian holiday) = Samhain, Easter = Ostara...see a pattern?
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:14 AM By Rita
Dear Arion the Blue ,
Just because Christians disagree with Wicca or paganism doesn't mean they don't love the practitioners.
I don't believe in religious persecution, but I am sincerely concerned that your religious practices are dangerous to you physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health.
I have friends who have been pagan and I have met several people for whom paganism was somewhat faddish.
I don't try to bang them over the head with a Bible or try to demean them. Mostly I pray for them and try to answer their questions about my Catholic Faith.
Some of the best Catholics I know live by, "Preach the Gospel. Use words if necessary."
Many of them, by the way they live have made it easier for me to believe in God.
Pax, Rita
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:27 AM By elsie
Right on Christopher! A well-reasoned argument. It's amazing how much truth we discover when we apply our God-given logic and critical thinking to these matters. And,
yes, Arion, Christians are called to love all people, but that doesn't mean we are called to agree with your distorted thinking. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Yes, there are universal principles that can be found in many religious traditions, common threads, so to speak, but Jesus Christ is the only one who said "I am the way, the truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through me." How much clearer can it get?
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:34 AM By Linda
I was wondering if Wiccans believe in abortions and what are their views on them.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:51 AM By Marguerita
Thank goodness this family was able to respect each of its members to find their own connection with the Divine. These children are going to be able to become spiritually mature beings because of the example set by their parents.
I was raised Catholic and now I am a Pagan Witch. I know both religions thoroughly, and they are not really that far away from each other. It is only the narrow-minded prejudice of certain people (mostly Catholics, unfortunately) that stops the two religions from having tolerance and love for each other.
During my teen years, I went from wanting to become a Nun (well, I really wanted to be a Priest, but that path was not open to me), to studying all religions. I tried to ask the Catholic religious leaders my questions, but all they would say to me is: "You must have faith." A lot of the Catholic beliefs just didn't make sense to me. As I told my parents, "You raised me to think for myself. And that's what I intend to do!"
I found the Goddess in my late 20's and I felt that I had "come home." Truly. I am now in my late 50's and I feel that way even more.
When I went home for my father's funeral, the priest asked what hymns to sing for the service. I told him that my father had a special devotion to the Blessed Mother and I asked him to sing "Ave Maria." The priest scoffed and me and said that no hymns to Mary were to be sung or played.
When I was at my mother's funeral, the priest spoke about her (a woman who went to Mass EVERY DAY, and served the Church in many ways, and also served the poor and the elderly) in a derogatory manner, saying that she was too curious, always asking him questions about why certain changes had been made to Church rituals. He implied that she should have kept quiet.
If you are truly interested in learning about the Pagan religion, I recommend the book ___Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience___by Gus diZerega, and maybe you were enchance your own spiritual life!
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:51 AM By Heather Fairfield
Congratulations to Chris and Tina for being able to work in an interfaith relationship. Modern Paganism has a LOT in common with some branches of early Christianity, so I have never understood why the Christian community is so phobic about it. The ones who squawk the loudest about how "awful" Paganism is are generally the most misinformed and ignorant people in the community. They have no idea what Paganism is about, and are simply afraid of what they don't understand. (That includes the individual above who claims that he has "demons" in his life because of his former Pagan beliefs. I got news for you, pal ... whatever you were practicing, it wasn't Paganism. We don't deal with demons. Sounds to me more like you were following Satanism than Paganism, so I'm glad for you that you got yourself on a better path.)
Most of the comments here only serve to illustrate the pitiful narrow-mindedness that some Americans still sadly have in the matters of religion. Do I have a problem with Christianity?? Absolutely NOT. If it works for you, I'm really happy that you've found a path to the Divine that speaks so well to your heart. It isn't a faith that works for me, and it never will.
As far as "truth" goes in religion ... well, folks ... "truth" is relative. Everyone interprets the actions of the Divine through their own personal lens. Paganism and Christianity (when you cut away the outer layers and get down to the REAL message) have more in common than they have differences. In fact, most religions have the same core teachings at their respective hearts. The technicalities are different, but we pretty much all agree that you should respect yourself, respect others, do the right thing, don't hurt people, don't steal from people, honor your parents, treat your children right (a lesson that most Catholic priests sadly still have yet to learn), and to have a relationship with the Divine. Why stress so much about what we DON'T have in common??
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:03 AM By Scolaí
Well said, Arion.
I am a student of Wicca and a former fundamentalist Protestant. I am contiually amazed at the judgement of Christians that is typically seeped in ignorance. Beliefs that ring contrary to the biblical views of the church are condemned as satanic, false, and evil.
What it might be worth discovering, my Christian friends, is that we Pagans and Wiccans are often some of the friendliest, most caring, and deeply spiritual people you will ever meet.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:29 AM By Rob
Sophia, this is not an "organized" approach. This article shows up in any number of places, from Witchvox to Google News (which is where I ran across it). There's no "posting campaign" to my knowledge (if you find one, please feel free to post the URL), but simply people responding to the article.
It's unfortunate that so many posters, both Pagan and Christian, feel they need to get so shrill. Much heat and little light helps nothing in this discussion.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:49 AM By Andrea
Personally, I am praying for all of you, regardless of religion, spirituality or zip code. I'm delighted to see so many people engaging in discussion and presenting their personal views and beliefs. I understand the fear and anger that we all feel at the idea of being misrepresented, but everyone here has obviously found a belief system that really works for them, and that's good. Not everyone finds that. So I'm praying for everyone here, and everyone everywhere, that discussion continues, views are shared, and that we all find faith, love, and the touch of the divine (in whatever form that may be). Blessings to all.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:50 AM By Sheree
Mr. Zehnder, you said that God is just as much God to a woman as to a man. I believe that is a very good statement. However, as a woman, I can say that the very human leaders of so many Faiths have made rules and regulations that make the worship of God more for (or in favor of) men than for women. Humans have forced the issue to be male vs. female. I personally think that the Creator is bigger and better than gender wars, childish temper tantrums, and name calling.
Let me put out some thoughts to all the readers here:
How does one know that the whole of Christianity was not created by 'Satan' to make good people claim Truth for themselves and to deny it to those who do not follow their rules and regulations? No, I am not saying you are wrong or evil, I'm just asking what feels like a natural question everytime I hear someone say that paganism is of the Devil because it isn't what they believe. I replace 'Pagan' in those arguements with 'Christian' and the circular logic works against Christianity too. When I hear people ranting and raving against other religions, I cannot help but wonder if their viewpoint isn't driven by a Devil that wants intolerance, hatred and violence. What other actions could possibly so successfully oppose the compassionate messages of the Buddha, Jesus, and other great Spiritual Teachers?
Please do not take this as an attack on Christianity. I am simply putting forth an idea that good people can discuss. You can completely disagree and rip apart the idea, and yet if we are talking honestly and respectfully with one another, I don't believe evil will get a word in edge-wise. Compassion and Respect are the greatest weapons all good people have against evil. "The rest is just a dispute over trifles." - Elizabeth I of England, Supreme Head of the Church of England 1558 - 1603.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:10 AM By Psion
This Truth many of you speak of.. is a fluttering thing, like light on a flower. To a humans eyes the colors appear in delicate (or at times not so delicate) patterns. But view the same flower through a bees eyes and there is no prismatic color. Only a kind of reflection that we cannot see with our own bare eyes. Then is this Ultraviolet Light a falsehood? We cannot see it with our own eyes, even reprisentations of how it can be seen must be coded in color for us to see it. Does our inability to see Ultraviolet Light make it an untruth? Does the bees inability to see the reds and blues we do make our sight less real? Must someone who is red-green colorblind deny that red and green are distinct colors and that anyone who says differently is a liar? The Truth appears to each differently, but it still appears, we see it through different perceptions, but what makes one more true than the other?
We all are seeing the same ray of light that comes from the Divine, to me it comes in the form of a loving god and goddess who have many faces. To another it may come as many distinct figures.. or only one.. or as an indistinct shape, or perhaps, nothing at all.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:27 AM By Erihu
Andrea, beautifully put, and Blessings to you as well.
Linda, everyone else seems to be ignoring your question. Maybe it's because it isn't very clear. Do Wiccans believe in abortions? The question doesn't make any sense. Abortions do exists, so of course we believe in them. The same way that I believe in this chair I am sitting in. Do you mean, do Wiccans believe in a woman's right to choose what to do with their own bodies? I'd say that many, but not all would be Pro-choice. That doesn't mean we are necessarily in favor of abortions. It's a distinction that many do not get. I, personally, would never have an abortion, but that doesn't mean that I want to go back to the days when women had no choice but to try to terminate a pregnancy themselves, or go to doctors who will botch it. Remember, abortion was illegal before, but that didn't stop it. And since many, though not all, Wiccans believe in some form of Reincarnation, they believe that the soul will be born again. Again, this is what I believe, and I cannot speak for all Wiccans.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:28 AM By Marvin
Tina's new found paganism is just a natural progression of the catholic church. The church has been straying from the Scriptures and adopting paganism for centuries. Do a little research on the origins of easter and christmas to see how much paganism has been brought into the church. Tina's goddess worship is an extension of worshipping the virgin mary. The book of Jeremiah talks about the heathens that are worshipping the "queen of heaven" and it doesn't bode well for them. We should all, "test everything in the light of Scriptures and hold steadfast to that which is true".
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:29 AM By Christopher Zehnder
Sheree,
Actually, I think the Wiccans and pagans who have come on to this Catholic site have shown far more nastiness and intolerance than the Catholics. It's not as if the Catholics have gone onto a Wiccan site and were in any way disrespectful.
How do we know the the Christian faith is true? There are reasons to think it is, on a purely rational level. However, we know the Christian faith is true because we have, though unworthy, been brought into mystical union with Holy Trinity through baptism and the Eucharist. We can no more deny Christ is who He said He is than we can deny ourselves. And He said no man comes to the Father but through Him.
So, though you may not understand it, by asking us to assume even for a moment that Christ is not as we have known Him is to ask us to deny our religion. It is to put the "dialogue" purely on your basis, which is religious skepticism. I can not deny that the sun rises and sets; even less can I deny that Christ is risen.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:31 AM By Christopher Zehnder
Psion,
Is what you said about Truth really -- the Truth?
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:34 AM By Scolaí
elsie said: 'Jesus Christ is the only one who said "I am the way, the truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through me."' This statement is not entirely accurate. The same statement was attributed to the Egyptian god Horus/Osiris (among others) long before the birth and advent of Jesus of Nazareth. As a matter of fact, Christianity (particularly Catholicism) has so much in common with the early Pagan mystery religions that one could hardly be called more "evil" than the other.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:52 AM By LA
I've been trying to post a guestion to the pagans about their belief on a certain issue but the editor won't approve it, maybe the editor is pagan too.
Editor's reply: As far as I know, I have only deleted two messages in this exchange because their scurrility. I don't think I deleted any questions. Post it again and we'll see.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:52 AM By Eve
I am a Catholic witch (for real) and this article is PURE blasphemy.
And FYI people...if the wiccan was ever baptised in Christianity, their marriage is sacramentally valid (not that that would stop newchurch and newrome from annulling it any way for the bargin price of $800).
People you need to be concerned about the REAL problems in your church! Wake up!!!
http://hocestenimcorpusmeum.blogspot.com/2007/03/its-sign.html
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:02 AM By Macha
in response to several of the posts here " The christian god never sanctioned the killing of the innocent." Sorry, but the crusades? They killed innocent women and children, too.
C.Z. - You say that if what your faith says is true, and what my faith says is true, they can not both be true. The deal is.. faith is belief. I can believe the song on the radio is horrible, and you may believe it's the best song ever written. For you, that is your truth. For me, it is mine. And therefore, both are true... for the one who holds the belief.
There is no fact you can read, see, or touch, that proves definatively, one way or the other, that one is right or wrong.
Don't mistake me, I applaud your faith, your conviction in your beliefs. I know to truly live with them is a hard path to walk, no matter the religion.
The problem is, Jesus talked of loving thy neighbor. He never said " Unless they're...(enter various descriptors here), then kill them, mock them, burn them, take their wordly goods, yadda yadda"
So if I can love the people around me, does that not mean I am honoring Jesus's teachings?
I am an intelligent, decent, loving, productive person. Should it matter who I pray to behind closed doors? (Which is another thing that many christians and catholics forget. The bible DOES say not to speak of faith in the streets, but behind closed doors.)
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:02 AM By Erica
I realize this is a heated issue, but I beg of you all, please step back and take a breath. Fighting, arguing, you do nothing other than stress each other out. The question you should be asking yourselves is this. Are you a good person? Do you help out your neighbor when their house burns to the ground, without condition or statement of faith?
Do you help the hungry child in the street, without demanding that they offer their souls up to someone? Do you care for others, without worrying about whether they are performing a ritual tonight?
As human beings, we are fallible. if Christianity is right, then they are right. But demanding that they are right into the faces of those that dont' believe will gain you nothing. It turns you from a caring human being into a monster. Trust me.
If you are a Pagan screaming that the Christian god is a bully that demanded the slaughter of millions, how are you any better than the Christians you so derisively sneer at? The truth is, nearly everyone on these boards are being hypocrits. I beg of you all, step back, and truly look at yourselves.
If you are Christian, ask if Jesus would be happy with your behavior? Did Jesus not say to go out to cities and spread the word, but if the word was not received well, to shake the dust from your feet? To me, this says to say your message, and move on. Don't argue, for it will only harm your cause.
To the Pagans, arguing to those that believe you wrong will gain nothing. Instead, strive for the balance and harmony that so many of you believe in. Offer your hands in help to those that would strike you down, for you can only be a better person for it.
I will not say what my own beliefs are, because I truly believe it does not matter. Each of you, whether you be humanist, deist, christian, pagan, muslim, or jew should look into your own hearts, and strive to become as your faith demands.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:07 AM By Mary
Marvin, as a Catholic I do not worship Mary but she is an advocate that we can call upon to pray for us to her Son. You must be a protestant, as our pagan bothers & sisters have been saying, "it sounds like you have comtempt prior to investagation". Also, every Protestant church can be traced right back to the Catholic church, so where would that leave you and your faith.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:25 AM By John
As a devout Catholic, I believe in the Church's teachings. But I know Catholics, who by outward appearances, are much more pious than I but in turn, showed themselves to be bad people. I also know Wiccans/pagans, while they do not share my Faith, to be, as far as I'm aware, good and decent people. I think Christ's teachings of, "By their fruits, you shall know them" are important when dealing with people from other faiths. Peace to all.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:40 AM By Carol
Yes, take the red pill! Pagans are being called by Catholics "irrational", but take this test: You have been raped repeatedly. (a) You are then told that you must return to your rapist over & over, subject yourself completely as a slave to the rapist or suffer even more dire consequences because being raped is the One Right True & Only way to live. You are told rapists are the most holy of the good. FEEL MY PAIN. (b) You look for a place that's safe from your rapist. You leave the rapist's house, never to return. You are told that you never have to be raped again, & that no conditions are placed on you for that to happen, just live & be as you are. You learn tools for making sure you are never raped again & supported in your efforts. You are told rapists are evil & that rape is not a show of love. You learn that there are other ways to live.LEARN TO HEAL./The *rational* choice would be (b), but the RCC says all of the things in (a) are the only choice, that any other choice is evil. The RCC uses terms like child, sheep, servant, slave to descibe its True Believers. Paganism (b) uses terms like man, woman, adult, responsible human to describe its believers. The definition for insanity is repeating an experiment over & over and expecting different results. I would be insane to return to option (a) only to be raped & violated again, & I am a sane & rational person despite the RCC's attempts to subjugate & destroy me with disempowerment and multiple violations. The RCC creates Stockholm syndrome in its believers, who cling to their abuser instead of leaving him, who defend their abuser against all criticism & see their abuser as most holy & good. I have broken that hold, & I am condemned by the remaining prisoners. So be it. Coppertops can live quite happily blissfully unaware of their state of victimhood by a life-sucking institution that steals all of their power and life. ITA about the Gus deZerega book - read it if you dare to disobey your master! The RCC LIES!
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:45 AM By Erihu
To LA,
If you are Linda, and you were asking about abortions, your question was posted, and I replied. Look back a bit.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:45 AM By Erihu
To LA,
If you are Linda, and you were asking about abortions, your question was posted, and I replied. Look back a bit.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:50 AM By Billy Bob
The Editor has in fact deleted a lot more then 2. The editor deleted two of my comments already and this one will make three.. and I all I did was link the full article on it.. Guess he/she doesnt want the Catholics to discuss the whole topic.. but rather a compromised one
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:54 AM By REv. G. Oeding
Christopher Zehnder asked Psion: Is what you said about Truth really -- the Truth?
Christopher, I think that was the point. You have spoken here a lot about Truth. But in this case, you back your Truth with nothing more than personal experience, "we know the Christian faith is true because we have, though unworthy, been brought into mystical union with Holy Trinity through baptism and the Eucharist"
This personal PoV cannot be taken as **Truth**. Can you prove to me, with scientific fact - not dogma, doctorine or miracles - that yours is the Truth?
BTW, and I am very curious about this, why are most Points of View only black or white? What a horribly boring and ugly world to live in.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:56 AM By Michael
I have to say that I'm with Erica on this one. Fighting gains us nothing, and it really only cheapens everyone's faith in the end. Mary, you're the first Catholic on here to refer to pagans as your brothers and sisters, and for that I say thank you. I'm going to now. I hope everyone has a blessed day. -Goddess and God keep you (in whatever form you see fit)-
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:58 AM By Mary lou
Suprised that a "few" people responding to this article are "sympathetic" to the "WAY" this family is being raised - in the name of - FREEDOM TO WORSHIP !!! If this is such an important RIGHT why doesn't this FREE-THINKER family CLAIM their ORGANIZED "PAGAN - ONLY" religion and leave the "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH" out of their practices ? It appears this family wants to give a "MIXED - MESSAGE"/ example ; that it is possible to raise a "mixed -religious committed family" - a contradiction in terms!! You can have the best of ALL WORLDS !! Woe to those who give scandle to these little ones !! You either believe Jesus Christ is Our Saviour or you don't !! According to his own statements this husband / father is not a " practicing " Roman Catholic .He is a Catholic in "name only" !! SATAN ( the supreme god in satinism and witchcraft ) loves to create doubt and confusion especially where the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is concerned !!! If "IT" were not the TRUE CHURCH why would he care ?? Is this Church a THREAT to him and his followers/practitioners ? This is a spiritual BATTLE which will go on till the end of time !! Jesus Christ IS: THE WAY , THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE !!!!!!! The "TRUTH" will set you "FREE" !!!
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:18 AM By Seshen
Linda, Wicca does not have a formal stance on abortion. That moral decision is left to the individual, because they know their heart and circumstances better than anyone.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:39 AM By Rob
Well put, Erica. People will communicate better if they shout at one another less...
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:41 AM By Erihu
Mary Lou,
You would think that Freedom to Worship was important, too, if you lived where your religion was not in the majority. Say, Somalia, where Christians are being beheaded for their faith? Please tell me you don't think that they deserve to worship as they see fit?
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:42 AM By Scolaí
It's rants like the one posted by Mary lou above that do little for the cause of the church. Mary lou's comments are steeped in anger and vitriol, laced with statements that are the result of poor or non-existent scholarship. Wicca and witchcraft have no concern for the Christian construct of all-encompassing evil - the Devil, Satan, Lucifer or whatever name you conjure up for it. I do not revere, acknowledge, worship, or otherwise lend credence to Satan either by direct or implicit actions. Christians will usually counter by saying that any worship of deity outside of the Christian/Catholic church is satan worship by default. The only response to such simple thought is simply this: whatever. Blesséd be.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:42 AM By Rob
Mary Lou, it appears to me, upon reading the article, that the problem is that one parent is of one faith and one is of another.
Oh, and FYI, Satan is "supreme" to Satanists, but Wiccans have nothing to do with Satan. I realize you may have been taught otherwise, but take it from one who acutally *is* Wiccan, and knows from personal experience. Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:52 AM By Kaiyotee
Love, tolerance, kindness.
This is what Jesus taught.
This is whats important.
I'm Wiccan and this is what I believe.
You who are Catholic/Christian, do you believe this as well?
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:59 AM By Rhadae
Sheep are linked to Christians. Some need to be herded.
Goats are linked to Pagans. Some are independent thinkers.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 12:01 PM By Carol
Are we Pagans really being so mean, or are we just pointing out the very large & egregious flaws in your system, one that enforces (co)dependence, helplessness, lack of responsibility, & conditions people to be ripe for victimization? Saying"all Pagans are evil, worship Satan, kill babies, drink blood, & are going to hell" is a much more cruel statement than anything Pagans have said here. It is on this forum that Catholics have made such assertions, & we have come to call you on it. Defend your cruelty & insensitivity if you can. Empathy & compassion are not Christian values, but are tools of ruthlessness & manipulation. All "help" of the less fortunate by Christians has strings attached, all given with the goal of brownie points for the "giver". The RCC has not even apologized for sexual abuse under its watch, much less offered string-free help, & any offer of help is just a suspect invitation to "come under our power so we can hurt you again". We Pagans are not involved in anything physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually harmful - on the contrary, it is Catholics (and Christians in general) who live a destructive, arrogant, self-centered, I'm-going-to-heaven-and-you're-not, I don't care who I hurt as long as I get in good with god, narcissistic it's all about me and my soul and how many souls can I ensnare, I take no responsibility for my acts because I'm saved/went to confession, selfish, and evil life. The RCC steals souls and innocence. The RCC kills minds, bodies, & spirits. The RCC then lies about it all, says the accusers are bad, evil, sick, crazy, wrong, mean, etc. This is proven fact. We Pagans are just mirrors reflecting back what you present. You all think you're so superior to the other 2/3 of the world for which your book and your church are *irrelevant*. Any Christians/Catholics who are not like we see are good *in spite of* Christianity not because of it (sorry). Lighter note: see South Park Red Hot Catholic Love for the truth as satire.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 12:06 PM By Mary
You are my bothers & sisters we are all God's children. If I live my faith God asks me to love others as myself. Not always an easy commandment but it's at the top right below the commandment "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. So I ask daily for the grace to love, because unfortunately it doesn't always come naturally to me.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 12:28 PM By ravenstone
Amazing. I was here yesterday about this time, and yet the battle of words rages on 24 hours later. I think we can safely say that for the most part, each camp will stick to their guns. It would be nice if there was some mutual basis for respect.
I seem to remember (albeit about other more periferal issues within the early Christian Church) St Paul writing something like (paraphrasing)"let each man be fully convinced in his own mind" (regarding ethical dilemmas of the day). There is another quote (Hebrews?) that says "whatsoever is not of faith, is of sin".
My point? Each side in this debate is fully convinced in the rectitude of their position. At that level, each side is correct.
I read one post by CZ where he likened Pagans to a person who believes he will reach the moon by climbing a mountain. I will offer an alternative idea: Both Catholics and Pagans are on the "spiritual mountain"; the difference is that they are both gazing down on opposite sides - (some Catholics assuming that their side is the only one that exists - as if God could be shrunk down small enough to fit such a paltry view!).
The view is not the issue; acknowledging the reality of multitudinous viewpoint, each one small iota of the whole, is.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:07 PM By Renee
Is this how you all feel about Jews, as well? What about Buddhists, Muslims, Zoarastrianism (sp?)? Seriously, do you all get that worked up over every other religion out there? If so, I'm surprised you all haven't died of heart attacks before now.
Wiccans are not evil, and there are plenty of resources you can avail yourself of to discover this for yourselves. There is no "conspiracy", or "infiltration", or "harm for the children". Whether you agree with the religion or not, the fact remains that Wicca is a peaceful, life-affirming religion that believes in equality for the sexes, believes in freedom of thought and choice, and believes in the sacredness of nature. There isn't anything wrong with that, other than you hate-filled "Catholics" judging something when God specifically has told you not to.
You might want to try following your own teachings before condemning someone else's.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:08 PM By Elsie
Dear Scolai: If paganism and Catholicism have so much in common, then why do you argue so emphatically against Christians? I mean,what's the dif,right? Fact is, there is no comparison between the historical and evidential truth of the one and only God Incarnate, and a mythological clump of stars (osirus or any of the other imaginary creatures of the ancient Egyptians.)
"I and the Father are one," Jesus said. One God, the First Cause, the Source of all Creation, the "I am that I am" who manifests Himself in countless ways to us pitiful half-saint, half-sinner humans. Continue to chase after multiple gods and you may just be chasing your tail. Through Jesus Christ alone (the man-god) our Creator came in human form to reveal Himself to us and to show us the boundless love and mercy He has for all of His creation. We are all loved equally by this One God, the Alpha and the Omega, regardless of our human failings. "For God so loved the world, that He gave is only begotten Son..." Perhaps, we could all learn a lesson from Mother Therese, the Catholic nun, who served in God's Love the Hindus, Muslims and Christians of Calcutta without regard to race, creed or color. And maybe it is time to shake the dust from our feet because, in the words of St. Thomas Aquinas, "for those who believe, no explanation is necessary, and for those who do not believe, no explanation is possible." Ultimately, because of our God given free will, the choice is ours: Heaven or Hell, eternal salvation or eternal damnation. So, I guess considering what's at stake here (the destiny of our souls), it's worth a little blogging time. (Just remember, of the fallen gods, there are many to choose from - Satan and his minions- and some of them may look real good to us until we get a close-up view.
The Risen Christ, on the other hand, only looks better the closer we get ....know the Truth and it shall set you free....
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:22 PM By Linda.
Seshen ; Tell that to the "ABORTED" souls of wiccan believers since THESE ABORTED SOULS were never given the "chance"/ CHOICE to know THEIR hearts and circumstances better than any other PERSON either or don' t wiccans believe they are KILLING HUMANS in abortions ? I guess we are the same as any other insect - plant or animal in creation in the wiccan beliefs !! HOW SAD !!!
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:52 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Mr. Oeding,
Not all knowledge of truth is attainable by the same methods. Emprical science is one mode of attaining truth, but it is less certain than mathematical science. Further, history is based on testimony from the past and so never brings certain knowledge. Yet, we do not deny truth to any of these modes of knowledge.
I think there are historical reasons for thinking the claims of the Christian faith are true. I think there are signs of its verity. But these alone do not produce conviction in the soul. Faith is ultimately a gift through a communication of the the life of God to the soul.
To say that a knowledge of truth does not come by natural reason or entirely by it is not to say it is not knowledge of truth. Nor does it make it subjective. It simply means the mode by which the knowledge is reached is a different one from the mode by which natural knowledge is obtained. It would be purely subjective if it could come to me alone and no one else. But it is open to all who seek it.
My point to Psion was that he/she was proclaiming as Truth that Truth is a matter of perspective. In other words, he/she was claiming as an objective fact that truth is purely subjective. It's like the fellow who said, "the absolute truth is that there is no truth!"
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:54 PM By Editor
Editor's Note:
I think we all said everything we need to say on this topic. We are all becoming repetitive. I shall, therefore, end all comments on this entry at 5 p.m. sharp today.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:47 PM By Bill Bob Jr
Each side is dead set against the other
But I have Just one quesiton..
How can the Catholics be right when by definition they are immoral?
Picking to go to a Utopia or a Dsytopia..
thats not a choice.. no one would pick the dsytopia..
wouldnt it be moral to choice to be good without getting a reward.. and if your bad you get punished?
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:51 PM By Seshen
Linda, I said nothing of the sort. Apparently you had your mind made up about what Wiccans do in general before you received the answer to your question. Such pre-conceived bias is one reason I left the church to begin with.
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Posted Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:48 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Mr. Bob,
Human beings seek happiness. Catholics follow their Faith because by it, we believe, we shall achieve union with God, who is Goodness and Beauty itself. It is not immoral to want to be happy. It is only immoral if we deny the same happiness to others. But the Faith takes care of that: Our Lord said, "Love your neighbor as yourself." So, if we are Catholics worth our salt, we desire for all others what we desire for ourselves.
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Posted Friday, April 06, 2007 8:52 AM By Editor
EDITOR'S NOTE
Please Note: This thread is now closed.
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Posted Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:05 AM By tinan nettleton
While I am aware that you have closed the thread on this. I hope you will do the responsible thing and post this. I am the mom featured in this article.
I wanted to also express my discontent that this website has chosen to only present a small bit of a much more detailed article. It seems to me that those running this site have an agenda by doing this. Basically, you appear to be behaving irresponsibly and unchristian. Please prove me wrong and and share with you readers the complete article.
It can be viewed at http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2007-03-28/news/raising-pagans
Editor's Note: I have allowed this message, even though the thread is closed, since it is by one of the subjects in the article. I will note that the the link for the above article was already furnished in the comments, above. I also insist that the article, while not containing all the details of the Express article, in no way falsified it. But let the reader judge for himself. But, no more comments shall be added to this thread.
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