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Published: December 24, 2009
No angels, no stars
Sonoma County administrator orders religious symbols removed from Christmas trees on county property
Just four days before Christmas, Sonoma County’s acting administrator has ordered that all religious symbols be removed from Christmas trees erected in county-owned buildings.
 “I understand the concern about government endorsing religion or a doctrine, and I respect that is not our role,” acting county administrator Chris Thomas told the Santa Rosa Press Democrat.
Thomas’ order on Monday, Dec. 21, meant all stars, angels and anything else smacking of religion had to be immediately removed from the trees, the newspaper reported.
The county administrator made his decision based on a complaint filed by Irv Sutley of Santa Rosa, a disabled veteran with “a long history of protesting the use of religious symbols in government settings,” reported the Press Democrat.
Sutley, 65, is a self-described atheist who chairs the Sonoma County central committee of the Peace and Freedom Party, said the Press Democrat. “He spotted an angel on a tree in the lobby of the county Recorder's Office on Friday while gathering voter information for his bid for re-election in the June primary,” said the newspaper. “He said he found other offending items in the lobbies of various other departments, prompting a meeting Monday with Thomas. Sutley said he was simply asking the county to follow the law.”
“I don't believe government has the right to use tax dollars to show favoritism to any particular cult like Christianity,” Sutley told the Press Democrat. “It's just wrong. That's why we have the Constitution, to protect minorities from the majority opinion.”
According to the Sonoma County newspaper, “one of the offending trees” had been put up in the lobby of Thomas' office, and featured a star at the top. Thomas told the Press Democrat he decided to confer with county attorneys about the star. “A star on top of the tree is a religious symbol for some people,” Thomas told the newspaper.
Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:39 AM By Ron
Merry Christmas Chris Thomas and may God forgive you.God Bless
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 5:18 AM By Angelo
To all Christians, Chris Thomas and Sutley are children created by God, Our brothers in Christ. And we hold them in high esteem for love of God. Thus they are for all Christians, religious symbols. According to their interpretation of the Constitution, they both must be removed from County property immediatly.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:45 AM By 1abqdad
Once again, this fool has allowed evil to prevail. Who paid for the decorations? (As if that is truly the issue.) So, why is the religion of atheism is allowed to over ride the desires of everyone else? This stupidity is offensive to God! First, there is NO "division of church and state" in the constitution. In fact, the opposite is true, as God was the centerpiece of the development of the constitution! It's amazing that prayer was central to ALL meetings to develop the constitution, and it is now "non grata" because a few gutless, ignorant and/or evil activist judges corrupted the intent of the constitution by legislating from the bench. Anyone with an ounce of brains knows the true history of the intent of the rejection of a "national religion" in the constitution, which stemmed from the abuses of the "royals" in England! But, the Anglican church and its derivatives are NOT "God's representatives"! The royals are certainly NOT either! It requires an amazing level of stupidity to fail to understand the difference between a national religion resulting from the abuses in England and the recognition of God's hand on our lives! The rejection of prayer or an angel on a tree has nothing to do with the clause in the constitution...and the liberals know it! It is an abuse of MY rights to disallow God in my life anywhere! This country was about freedom until the fascists masquerading as "liberals for a perversion of freedom" took over the democratic party! Now, we are only "free" if we are PC and agree with them on everything...which is always in opposition to the desires of God and His Church!
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:02 AM By Bud
Atheism should certainly be declared a religion. People like Mr.Sutley have nothing better to do than feel sorry for himself as a "disabled????" veteran which was so quickly used as some kind of excuse for his bitterness? This is the first that even a "star" shape is being used as a basis. How sad!
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:11 AM By JLS
Angelo, these idiots are not "brothers in Christ", but children of the devil. As for Thomas and Sutley being created by God, there is an implication here that is false. Their wrong choices are not created by God, nor does God will that they rebuke Him. The Church does not hold these two fools in "high esteem"; "God is no repector of men". To hold an anti-Christ is high esteem does not do justice nor does it enact charity, but serves vanity and the devil. Furthermore, Sutley, according to a news report is a retired Marine; how many men in battle are going to fight as a team when the Christian expression is denied? The manifestation of this sort of casting out of God from society or denial of the Holy Family from "the inn" has been tried almost successfully at times and history shows the catastrophic results. What Sutley is doing is dissembling against law and order, against the Constitution, against his fellow Marines, and against all that is good. He is a worthless sack of garbage and he and his fellows in bed should be sent to Saudi Arabia where they won't suffer the offense of having to see Christian symbols.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:24 AM By David
If Chris Thomas believes that a star is a religious symbol for "some people" and should be removed, then just think of the endless possibilities. Should the red star be dropped from the California flag? How about the bear -- it must be a religious symbol for somebody somewhere. And what about the names of so many California cities. It's unfair to have cities named after Our Lady Queen of the Angles, St. Francis, Saint James, St. Raphael, St. John the Baptist, St. Bernard, not to mention a city in OC named after Pope Saint Clement I. Really, the possibilites are endless. Merry Christmas, Christopher! (By the way, have you thought about changing your name? Christopher sounds, well, too Christian. Maybe "Grinch" would suit you better.)
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:25 AM By Bob
The county changed its mind and told department heads to use their good judgement.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:26 AM By Robert Lockwood
Another example of how screwed up this world now is. One bitter person can determine how we all live.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:39 AM By John F. Maguire
DATELINE: Thursday, December 24, 2009: Fox News reports: "California's Sonoma County has RESCINDED a ban on star and angel ornaments on county Christmas trees following a barrage of criticism over the policy" (emphasis mine). Associated Press contributed to this Fox News report.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 12:35 PM By Life Lady
Angelo, I so agree with you. They are Children of God, our Brothers in Christ, created in the image and likeness of God. In fact, Mr. Sutley has set himself up as his own god that he has expected the rest of us to bow down to, and Mr. Thomas has agreed with him. For that reason, and that one alone, they both must be removed from office, in order to protect the minority (us) from the majority (them) so as not to taint our government of the people, by the people and for the people into the worship of their ideals. This is our freedom we are speaking of. Let us go forth and exercise it.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 1:10 PM By Maryanne Leonard
So on December 24 they rescinded the ban on star and angel ornaments in Sonoma County? So everyone should rush back to work and spend time putting the ornaments on their partitions? I have a better idea. Everyone should start wearing Christmas ties, Christmas sweaters, Christmas colors, Christmas earrings and other jewelry, and display Christmas wreaths on their cars, etc., all items that nobody can require them to remove. Christmas smiles might help get the message across. I think it is still legal to ask people if they are looking forward to Christmas, ready for Christmas, going anywhere for Christmas, etc., also, at least at present. But with the so-called First Family failing to attend any sort of church services for Christmas, I think we can all see where this could be going. Let's all stand up and rejoice that we are still allowed to listen to Christmas elevator music as long as it is just about snowmen, sleds, sleigh rides, Santa and superficiality. In the privacy of our own homes and at church I think it is still okay to sing actual Christmas carols, but at one (Catholic!) church I attended last year, the main selection was a piano recital of delightful American classical music, heard year 'round and not even remotely related to any religious holiday of any sort. A bare-waisted teenager in front of us stood on her chair and danced so suggestively that we were forced to turn away from her exposed rear anatomy. For this we paid a hefty admission price. And no, we don't go to church there any more. Christmas is changing everywhere, but we can hold it in our hearts and celebrate it every way possible while we are still on this earth and still filled with joy at its true meaning.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 1:17 PM By A foreign Catholic
It seems that some people, who seem forced to use "god" in every of their sentences, have trouble with their country law.
I have no trouble with this law, and no trouble to have public -secular- buildings free of any religious symbols. If California's Sonoma County top official as indeed rescinded the -law binding- ban because of pressure he should be sued and removed from his job. To go against the law because of the lobbying of the usual angry zealots is simply appalling.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 2:37 PM By Harry
If the ban has been rescinded, then good judgment prevailed. No individual should have the right to impose his own prejudices regarding religion or anything else on the public. That is certainly not in the spirit of the Constitution. The people should decide such issues, as they apparently have in this case.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 2:45 PM By John Rogitz
I don't think the guy who complained, Sutley, has any idea where the term "separation of church and state" came from...it wasn't from the US Constitution. You can read the brief history of it at the Rogue Report dot com.
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 3:14 PM By Bob in the Valley
I'm sure Mr. Sutley has his reasons for DEMANDING all religious items from being displayed in & around gov't facilities. What frosts my tostadoes is that (1) person can get
their way while the other 90+% have no problems with Christmas decorations.
If his atheistic beliefs are so pronounced, let's see what he can do about the millions of STARS in the sky which according to him are religious in nature....Good luck & Merry Christmas Mr. Sutley..................
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Posted Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:30 PM By BlackSun
Oh, the outrage!! I'm sure it was fun while the Christians had an unquestioned majority. But now the numbers are falling and Christianity is only one religion among many, and non-believers are recognized as legitimate citizens. So the shoe is on the other foot. Religious symbols must be eliminated from the public square because it is not the role of government to *appear* to favor one religion over another. Either you display them all or you display none. Christians don't seem to be happy with either. If they can't have a monopoly on holiday displays, they start pouting.
But get real. Faith is a personal matter, and if your faith is strong you shouldn't worry about symbols being displayed in public. Display whatever you like in your own homes and churches. Anything else is just the petulance of a waning constituency and should rightly be ignored in a pluralistic society.
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Posted Friday, December 25, 2009 1:39 PM By Doc Mugwump
Christmas trees are religious symbols too - why not remove them, all lights of red and green and white and any red roses, poinsettias of any color and snow flakes too. The point is - everything may symbolize the love of God which is a religious expression. So... now our Constitution is to be interpreted like the Communist Manifesto? Are we to be at war with God and never allow for human expression of love of fellow humans and our creator?
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Posted Friday, December 25, 2009 3:37 PM By Arnold
Bob in the Valley, you should know that Mr. Sutley doesn't think any government agency put the stars in the sky and he doesn't think the stars in the sky are the least bit religious in nature.
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Posted Friday, December 25, 2009 3:41 PM By Michelle
Maryanne Leonard, there was no order to remove ornaments from anyone's personal work cubicle, only in the lobbies.
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Posted Friday, December 25, 2009 7:14 PM By 1abqdad
Black Sun - I find your definition of "unquestioned majority" curious, as the vast majority of Americans are STILL Christian or monotheistic. The difference is that a VERY FEW activist judges fail to understand the letter, the history, and the intent of certain passages within the constitution and have corrupted it. The net result was a collaboration with Satan in an attempt to remove God from His rightful place at the helm of our country. As these arrogant fools have sought to remove God, our culture has suffered terribly. Only a FOOL would claim that we are better off morally since the error. Over two-thirds of the Black babies are born to single mothers, Our children are out of control and morally bankrupt. Babies are being murdered by their mothers in the womb. Couples fail at an alarming rate, and unhappiness is a national epidemic. The net result of liberalism has been widespread unhappiness and suffering. Only a fool would fail to see the destructive result of the tyranny of liberalism. Symbols can be created from nearly anything. The silliness of the PC culture with cases like this one, has only served to accentuate the failure of humanism and liberalism. If you want the "success" of a pluralistic society, move to North Korea or Cuba, as they are shining examples of your pathetic way of thinking! Dios Bendigo.
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Posted Friday, December 25, 2009 11:43 PM By Anne T.
Black Sun, (what a dismal name), I don't know where you are at, but my neighborhood is thoroughly decorated with Christmas lights, nativities, large toy trains, snowmen, stars, angels and other wonderful Christmas decorations, and it is a working class and middleclass neighborhood.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:01 AM By Anne T.
Oh! I know. It is from "The Black Sun: the Nanking Massacre. Are you proud of what you did?
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:04 AM By Anne T.
Excuse me: The Nanking Massacre. Or is it an occult symbol? Either way it stands for evil.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:14 AM By Joe
How can all of you so called Christians know so little about your own religion? It's mind blowing that you even have the nerve to speak publicly about something that A. you know so little about and B. is so completely insane.
What if i told you I had a talking invisible friend? you obviously would either want proof or wouldn't believe me. Why don't you apply that same skepticism to your religious beliefs?
Also Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. Everything, from the tree to the day it's celebrated on is completely stolen from the Pagans.
Did I mention that there exists no primary sources that can even prove that jesus existed?
I guess that's why you need faith-- there is no other reason to believe.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 3:11 AM By Joe
First off the trees are not Christian. They are from the Pagan religon as well as the date, ideals, and gift giving. In fact, almost nothing about Christmas is actually Christian. It's not the actual day the alleged jesus was born. Even religious scholars acknowledge that.
I fail to see why any of you think that it's a requirement that we have chrismas stuff on public property. Don't you understand that YOU are the ones pushing your beliefs? I just can't understand why this is so hard for you all to grasp. Why do you think it's your right to push your religion onto public land?
It's not like we complain about you do wahtever you want at your house. why do you have to be out in public? Your own bible says to pray and worship alone, yet you are obsessed with making a public spectacle of this every year. Go read mathew 5:5-7 and try to apply it this this situation.
I don't expect any of you to know this since you are after all, Christians. Heaven Forbid you take 5 minutes to read up on your own beliefs.
Sometimes I feel like atheists are more likely to have actually read religious texts than the religious. Someone prove me wrong, please.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 3:30 AM By BJ
In reality they want to get rid of the tree as well, but they're doing it, bit by bit. Trees without stars and angels celebrate nothing and they know that if they succeed in forcing the removal of religious symbolism, the custom of celebrating Christmas is diminished and having a 'tree' would be pointless. Ofcourse, like the atheists in China and Russia or elsewhere, their efforts to smother religious convictions will be futile. They might as well accept that now. It doesn't matter who is in 'power' on earth, God will reign supreme in the heart of the majority of men, women, children and Holy Innocents in the womb.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 3:51 AM By BJ
Black Sun: aptly named, not much light shining from your star. Unfortunately you fail to recognise that the majority Christian identity of the US is a strong as ever..... it is the minority which controls the media, press and government which is setting its sights against the nation's traditional identity and its desire to be: 'one nation under God'. They don't like any reference to 'God'...... and hypocritically hide behind red herrings of equality.
I expect the next elections will show just how premature your jubilation is. Provided that the mass hypnosis induced by El Presidente and his determined band of identity changers doesn't again overcome the voters. God Bless in any case.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 7:43 AM By JLS
A Foreign Catholic, good of you to inquire about the nature of secular law in the United States. You presume that Thomas legally exercised his political position, but that is a false assumption. Thomas illegally abused his publically delegated power. He should be sued civily and charged with a violation of civil rights as well as a hate crime. Sutley should have an injunction placed on him to stay away from all religious symbols or anything at all that could be taken as a symbol of any kind.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 7:54 AM By JLS
Looks like the devil's bimbo, BlackSun, is as ignorant as he is hateful. He fantasizes that Christianity is dropping out and will be beaten down because of waning numbers. This sort of dementia is a result of whatever lifestyle this charade of a character dotes on. It is only common sense that Christianity started with a handful of members and then converted not only a few civilizations but people in most parts of the world. It is one of the great joys of Catholicism to triumph against all odds. The Church in the western world has been on vacation for decades now, and the deadwood is being tossed out and onto the funeral pyre of the pagans. When the time comes the Church will pull back into the driveway refreshed from Her renewal and once again in history make the kind of news that the devil hates and fades away from. BlackSun talks about something he or she or he/she has no concept of, namely faith. This character talks as if faith is personal ... one more incidence where someone with no personality tries to steal it from the One who is indeed personality incarnate ... these pagans like what God has given His Church, and they want it for themselves ... theft from God is always what they attempt to do, just as the devil attempted to steal God's throne by enslaving Adam and Eve in the beginning. What wiles the demoniacs use in their frustrated by never lacking envy!
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:45 AM By Atheist
I read so many misinformed and hateful comments, it is hard to know where to begin. However, I will try. First, we. atheists aren't anti-god. You can't be against something you don't believe in. Atheism comes Green, and means without belief in deities. We don't believe in Zeus, Vishnu, Quetzalcoatl, or any other deity or fantasy creatures, including the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam, or Christians religions...so don't take it personally. (By the way, we also don't believe in the devil.) Lastly, I find it humorous that the men like the you are attacking are trying to be inclusive to all people, rather being hateful as many of you have been here. In your words, you haven't been very good Christians. Many here are being judgemental, small minded, and scary. It sounds as if you are the verge of calling for a Christian jihad. Why are you so insecure that such a small thing could make you act and speak so?
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:48 AM By Anne T.
And, Joe, the pagans got it from the Jewish people. The first religion was a belief in one God because there IS only one God. All else is apostasy. The gods of my and your ancestors were just deified humans with all their sins and failings. I have no desire to return to that chaos. Jesus Christ was Jewish, and according to Christianity the fulfillment of the Jewish religion. By the way, Joe and others, there is not patent on trees, stars, angels, moons, etc.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:04 AM By JLS
Joe, why don't you spend enough time ruminating on the issue to realize that no one and no thing were Christian until Christ and His Church began making it so? I mean, Joe, this is a no brainer, dude. Regardless of any history or prehistory of anything, such things as trees can be made what they are for Christmas ... God has the power and authority to do so, and He manifests it through His Church. Yet, Joe, the fact you blogged here indicates that you are seeking the truth. Otherwise why would you bother trying to trash something that pertains to it. Now, some people project themselves into things and then discuss those things the way they feel them to be ... Just be sure, Joe, that Christ is able, willing and eager to transform your life much as He's transformed the lives of countless millions for twothousand years. Yeah, yeah, badmouth His trees at Christmas time, but remember the ironic pagan notion that these trees spring back to life each Spring, and like bunny rabbits at Easter, they symbolize what God has created which is the continuation of life on planet Earth. The "green revolution" speaks well of the creation God has made ... It all goes back to God, Joe. You give God your woes, He gives you life. This is the message of Christmas, Joe, which is to say life with God. Do you prefer life with a tree or life with God? Either way you are on the right track, for God died on a tree, and He turned that dead tree into living joy that one can find everywhere at Christmas time ... just open your eyes, Joe and see.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 12:58 PM By John F. Maguire
(1) In reply to Black Sun: The phrase *black sun* -- I'm guessing I needn't emphasize here because I'm guessing it's something you already know -- has both an objective meaning and a subjective meaning. (A) In the objective order of human history, *black sun* refers to the prophesied "eclipse" of the Catholic Church during a certain delimited period of human history -- a period characterized by widespread apostasy. Still, even during this period, as Christ has already assured us, "The evil is sufficient unto the day." Meaning: The evil is sufficient to each day's own "trouble, care, affliction" (Fr. Cornelius a Lapide). From within this perspective, we should bear in mind that no eclipse can totally obscure the sun -- no apostasy can totally obscure Christ's Church. Put another way: However extensive this apostatic "eclipse" might be, no such eclipse can occlude Holy Church, the brilliant corona of which will yet remain bright, any eclipse whatsoever notwithstanding.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:25 PM By John F. Maguire
(2) In further reply to Black Sun: I think that the study that that most thoroughly explores [B] the subjective meaning of "Black Sun" is Julia Kristeva's _Soleil noir: depression and melancolie_ (Paris: Gallimard, 1987). Translated into English by Leon Roudiez, Kristeva's book _Black Sun: Depression and Melancholy_ (New York: Columbia University Press, 1987) investigates a number of depressive modes-of-being, not least depressive sexuality. For Julia Kristeva, the cost of departing from "the primary message of Thomas Aquinas: love the other as oneself"; the cost of refusing "settle[ment] within oneself, by delight in oneself"; the cost of not being healed from one's "shattered narcissism," is an increased risk of falling under the sway of the "dark sun" of despair. See Kathleen O'Grady, "An Interview with Julia Kristeva," in _Parallax: Julia Kristeva 1966-96: Aesthetics, Politicis, Ethics_, Issue 8, July-September 1998.
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 3:32 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Life Lady,
Re.: to removing Mr. Sutley from Office, according to what I read here, the only Office he holds is in the Central Committee of the "Peace and Freedom" Party, and good luck in removing him from office in that Party, since that Party is the closest thing to the "Communist Party", even more so than the "Demoncrat Party!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 8:25 PM By Iznasilov
Um. Hey everyone. I just want to say that I am an atheist, and I don't have any problem with religious symbols being put up in government buildings. It's kind of hard for me to connect putting up christmass trees(were there any pine trees in israel the night of jesus's birth? :| ) with religious discrimination.
I think it's sad that atheism doesn't have any holidays of it's own, but I'm familiar with the creation celebration in pre-civilized man. I don't see how beautiful symbols can't be created by atheists that, like christianity, affirm or represent the beliefs of atheists. And I have no problem with those being put up in government buildings either.
Really, I think religious discrimination happens when you can't hold elected office because of your beliefs, or when you get fired because of your beliefs, or when people immediately think you are working for the devil even though you don't believe the devil exists, etc etc...
Really, putting up religious symbols. No problem. Just so we remember to be tolerant of each other and respect each other's values. Yes, that means atheists, too. :3
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Posted Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:53 PM By May
Iznasilov, atheists also use symbols to affirm or represent their beliefs. Words are an easy example, including the word "atheism". There are also a number of artistic symbols for "atheism" that can be found with a Google search. Perhaps you'll appreciate that beauty which is you reflected in atheism symbols, and in contemplation, realize that reflection called yourself to be a reflection of that original beauty called God. What holiday (i.e. holy day) would you like?
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:30 AM By Barbara
I can't understand why everyone would be so upset about removing Christian symbols from a "Christmas" tree that is in itself NOT a Christian symbol, but a pagan tradition.
The Origin of the Christmas Tree. See below by David Pack.
"No booklet about Christmas is complete without some explanation of the “Christmas tree.” We have touched on it without directly focusing on it. The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians.
The following demonstrates what the Babylonians believe about the origin of the Christmas tree: “An old Babylonish fable told of an evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump. The old stump symbolized the dead Nimrod, the new evergreen tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again in Tammuz! Among the Druids the oak was sacred, among the Egyptians it was the palm, and in Rome it was the fir, which was decorated with red berries during the Saturnalia!” (Walsh, Curiosities of Popular Customs, p. 242).
Frederick J. Haskin’s Answers to Questions states, “The Christmas tree is from Egypt, and its origin dates from a period long anterior to the Christian Era.” Did you know this—that the Christmas tree long preceded Christianity?"
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:31 AM By Barbara
I can't understand why everyone would be so upset about removing Christian symbols from a "Christmas" tree that is in itself NOT a Christian symbol, but a pagan tradition.
The Origin of the Christmas Tree. See below by David Pack.
"No booklet about Christmas is complete without some explanation of the “Christmas tree.” We have touched on it without directly focusing on it. The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians.
The following demonstrates what the Babylonians believe about the origin of the Christmas tree: “An old Babylonish fable told of an evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump. The old stump symbolized the dead Nimrod, the new evergreen tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again in Tammuz! Among the Druids the oak was sacred, among the Egyptians it was the palm, and in Rome it was the fir, which was decorated with red berries during the Saturnalia!” (Walsh, Curiosities of Popular Customs, p. 242).
Frederick J. Haskin’s Answers to Questions states, “The Christmas tree is from Egypt, and its origin dates from a period long anterior to the Christian Era.” Did you know this—that the Christmas tree long preceded Christianity?"
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:33 AM By Barbara
I can't understand why everyone would be so upset about removing Christian symbols from a "Christmas" tree that is in itself NOT a Christian symbol, but a pagan tradition.
The Origin of the Christmas Tree. See below by David Pack.
"No booklet about Christmas is complete without some explanation of the “Christmas tree.” We have touched on it without directly focusing on it. The modern Christmas tree originated in Germany. But the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Babylonians and the Egyptians.
The following demonstrates what the Babylonians believe about the origin of the Christmas tree: “An old Babylonish fable told of an evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump. The old stump symbolized the dead Nimrod, the new evergreen tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again in Tammuz! Among the Druids the oak was sacred, among the Egyptians it was the palm, and in Rome it was the fir, which was decorated with red berries during the Saturnalia!” (Walsh, Curiosities of Popular Customs, p. 242).
Frederick J. Haskin’s Answers to Questions states, “The Christmas tree is from Egypt, and its origin dates from a period long anterior to the Christian Era.” Did you know this—that the Christmas tree long preceded Christianity?"
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 10:32 AM By Anne T.
Iznasilov, I have no problem with atheist such as you. You seem to be tolerant of religious people. I, too, went through a period where I was not sure God existed, but it did not last long. I think I was angry with God for things that were my own fault. I am not saying that is the case with you. Peace.
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 10:51 AM By Anne T.
Also, Iznasilov, to answer your question about Christmas trees, I think Martin Luther was the first Christian to use them. From what I have heard, he went out into the forest, cut down a tree, brought it into his house and decorated it for his children.
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:51 AM By BlackSun
The Gallup poll dated December 24, 2009 pretty much says it all. Church attendance is dropping. More people think that religion is old-fashioned, and less people think it is capable of answering important questions. Catholics are down to 22 percent of the population while "nones" are up at 13 percent. In 1948, 91% of Americans identified with the Christian faith, now that's down to 78%. Arguments from popularity are always suspect. But the point is that if the US was ever a "Christian nation" (which it was not, according to the Treaty of Tripoli), it's much less so now. It was founded on religious pluralism, meaning that the government should not sponsor or appear to sponsor any particular denomination, nor should a religious test for office apply.
This is the reason why it's inappropriate for *government offices* to display religious ornaments. This does not mean they should be banned from every street, just government offices. Display anything you want on private property.
I want to congratulate the believers on this thread for demonstrating both a lack of "Christlike" charity, (calling me the "devil's bimbo") and lack of integrity. The guilt-by-association techniques used to attack my handle "BlackSun" are laughable. I have written an atheist website for 8 years called Black Sun Journal. That is the only thing that name means. I took it to represent the repressed shadow present in humanity, which has tried to demonize cover up and deny natural human impulses.
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Posted Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:31 PM By JLS
Iz..., who cares whether you have a problem with Christian symbols? It's your problem. You atheists have demented and blinded yourselves so badly that you cannot even comprehend the power and authority of God to be great enough to transform anything into a symbol He prefers. It makes no difference where pine trees came from or whether there was a star on one standing next to the baby Jesus ... God put one in the sky ... check astronomic history and see for yourself. Catholicism can convert even the cravenest of pinheads, Iz.... Bet you're wondering why I don't spell out your name, huh? There is one Name under Heaven that you should be concerned with, and that Name is Jesus, the Son of God, true God and true man. You can magnify your opinion as much as you possibly can and it will not affect the glory of Jesus Christ, to Whom all things work for His glory.
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Posted Monday, December 28, 2009 1:01 PM By JonJ
The reason why Thomas made that order is likely because he wanted to avoid litigation. A basic, practical reason. His reasoning is actually fairly sound with respect to Ninth Circuit decisions regarding government "communications" violating the establishment clause. I don't think he's a spawn of satan or even particularly anti-christian. I think he's just a relatively low level county official who just wants to avoid problems. If you support christian religious symbols on christmas trees, then you should also support jewish symbols paid for by the county during jewish holidays (such as the menorah), or muslim symbols during muslim holidays if jews or muslims make up the majority in a particular county.
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Posted Monday, December 28, 2009 4:06 PM By MarkF
How can we have a legal holiday called Christmas, yet no signs of Christ, no matter how small? These atheists are afraid to overtly take away Christmas, so they've decided to whittle away at it - banning Christmas songs, statues, etc. To cut it short, all of these diverse forces have crystalized in the election of the Secular Messiah, may Allah have mercy on his soul. This guy needs to be impeached ASAP. Then we need to remove all the judges who legislate anti-life, anti-Constitution, and anti-religious laws from the bench.
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Posted Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:41 AM By A Greenhill
If this was a nation where Christians were a minority and there were laws saying the government had to remain religiously neutral, would you guys be complaining when somebody like Thomas stood up against, say the Islamic majority?
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Posted Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:41 PM By Mary
MarkF, in case you missed it, the very name "Christmas" is itself a sign. And until the final moments of your life, let yourself be, in all that you do and all that you are, a sign of Christ the Servant -- for the Church has not been truly established, and is not yet fully alive, nor is it a perfect sign of Christ among men, unless there exists a laity worthy of the name working along with the hierarchy. For the Gospel cannot be deeply imprinted on the talents, life, and work of any people without the active presence of lay persons. When "the poor have the good news preached to them," it is the sign of Christ's presence.
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Posted Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:50 PM By MarkF
Mary, I have no idea what your point was just there. Just saying.
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Posted Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:49 PM By JLS
Greenhill, there are endless fantasies you could dream up; the reality is that Thomas will not stand up against Islam, against the socialist government, or against anything else except God.
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Posted Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:51 PM By JLS
JonJ, there you go again, dismissing the fact that God exists and we are meant to live according to His will. You can find some logic even in fantasy; the true logic is that Thomas has no regard for God and will do what the changing winds push him to do. It is of such that we say they have no spine.
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Posted Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:19 PM By BJ
Strange how Black Sun and Atheist spend so much time and energy on a site devoted to religious opinion and apparently writhe in discomfort at the very thought of 'religious belief '. Something missing in their lives? I suspect Our Lord is still calling them and i for one will pray that they stop resisiting the call and come back home. We Love you! God Bless all contributors...including those who wheel out the 'knowledge' & sophomore philosophy: 'Christmas and the tree is a pagan festival usurped by.....' yawn.... Dan Brown does it better, but just as shallow.
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Posted Wednesday, December 30, 2009 12:30 PM By JLS
The Church has accepted conifers and other things such as logs to be used to express the Catholic faith. It makes no difference if Christian symbols were used before Christ; Christ has redeemed the world including many of the world's symbols.
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Posted Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:47 AM By Matthew Nolan
Great to see, this is a freedom from religion we've enjoyed in Australia for many years...and we're better off for it!
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