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Published: November 12, 2009
What Other Bishops Helped?
In Maine Same-Sex Marriage Battle
It was widely reported that the Roman Catholic diocese of Portland, Maine was a large contributor to the Question 1 campaign against same-sex marriage.
But Portland, Maine is a small diocese. How did it come up with over $500,000 for this battle? Who donated to the Maine diocese?
 Among the largest donations were from other Catholic dioceses. Phoenix (Bishop Olmstead) and Philadelphia (Archbishop Rigali) gave $50,000 each. Next were Kansas City, Kansas (Archbishop Finn); St. Louis, Missouri (Archbishop Carlson); Providence, Rhode Island (Bishop Tobin), Youngstown, Ohio (Bishop Murry); and Newark, New Jersey (Archbishop Myers) – all at $10,000 each.
 No record of any California diocese giving money to the Maine diocese for Question 1 appears in the Maine campaign finance filings.
Click here to see the Maine campaign contributions and expenditures for the Portland, Maine diocese.
Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:50 AM By Raymond F. Rice
Nice to see that the Church hierarchy is not engaging in politics but is letting the laity "render to Caesar"! LMAO
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:32 AM By Laurel
God Bless these brave and holy bishops!!
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:36 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
Coincidentally, commentator Andrew Sullivan today (Nov. 12) reprinted the following letter he received from a reader: "I am a non-Christian gay man dating a Catholic priest, and am struck by the Catholic Church's reliance on gays as priests. Many come from places and homes in which being a priest has been the only acceptable path for a devout gay Catholic boy. In answer to your question asking if it is bizarre that the Catholic Church finances a campaign to tell gay kids they cannot have a relationship like their parents: If those kids knew they could have happy, loving, same sex relationships, would they still choose to be priests?"
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:57 AM By David
It's good to see bishops assisting each other. Maine is a small and poor state and needs the help. Maine has been a target of gay and lesbian groups for more than a decade. Since it is a small state (population of 1.2 million), the average educational level is relatively low, and mass media advertising rates are lower than in more urbanized areas, it's easier and cheaper to influence the electorate. I've lost track of how many times a gay rights related issue has been put before voters there. It's clear that most Mainers don't want to discriminate against gays and lesbians, but they also want to preserve marriage as a basic foundation of our society. Bishop Malone has handled this with courage, insight, and as a good shepard of his flock ought to and is clearly held in high esteem by his peers.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:06 AM By george
FYI, Finn is the Bishop of Kansas City, Mo. not the Archbishop of Kansas City, Ks
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:17 AM By Thomas Edward Miles
WHAT A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY! How about using that money to feed the poor or educate inner city children! This constant fear of gay folks is sad and very unfair to gay catholics. The church has never understood human sexuality anyway let alone homosexuality!! NO, I'M NOT GAY YET BUT I'M THINKING ABOUT IT, THANK GOD THOSE DONATIONS SAVED FROM GOING GAY! And here I was thinking of asking my Bishop to marry me as in for richer or poorer until death do us part, purple wedding dress anyone?!
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:13 AM By Camille
Yes, indeed, where are the California Bishops, or, for that matter, the Catholic Conference? We Catholics are caught on the horns of a dilemma. We are upset with their apathy over abortion and their seeming cooperation with the abortion lobby while at the same time we have to defend our faith and religious leaders against the public attacks of the pro abort/pro death cabals.
It's like watching both sides engage in a line dance. They move in the same direction to the same tune but seem not to touch each other.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:15 AM By Rick DeLano
It is good to see these donations.
It should shame us to compare the amount to what the Mormons spent here.
We were outspent 2-1 in Maine.
God is very merciful.
We ought never again be so presumptious.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:26 AM By JoeCee
This kind of obsessive political campaign financing (Main Question 1) by the bishops across the nation simply adds to the risk of the church loosing its tax-exempt status some day. That means Catholic schools, charities, religious orders and so forth will all be affected.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:09 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Chuck Anzuilewicz and Thomas Edward Miles must be really grateful to CalCatholic for providing such a great forum for them to proselytize on behalf of sodomites.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:49 PM By Grisha
Laurette: I'd like to suggest you discontinue the use of the word "sodomite" to describe homosexual people. The most common term in America is to refer to them as "homosexuals." In it's official documents, the Church uses the term "homosexual persons." They themselves, and many others use more the more informal terms we're all familiar with "gay" "LGBT" etc. Using "sodomite" in everyday communication makes it easy for the listener to dehumanize these children of God and to justify uncharitable attitudes and actions towards them. Secondarily, the term refers specifically to a specific type of sexual act which not all homosexual persons engage in. God bless you and thanks for considering my request.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:27 PM By Terry Carden
The best thing that could happen to our society is that all religions lose their tax exemptions.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:28 PM By Dale
Not to worry that our "esteemed" Cardinal and his diocese didn't donate anything. I made calls to voters in Maine for most of the day from my home in Pasadena! God Bless those Mainers.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:34 PM By Dale
Just read one of the other comments saying that the Church is risking its tax-exempt status by supporting Question 1. I believe the Church can always get involved in issues, it just cannot back candidates. It's called Freedom of Religion.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:59 PM By Joyce
They should lose their tax exempt status. They are mixing where they don't belong and are trying to buy votes with our money. I'm not giving them another Dime.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:44 PM By gravey
Sorry Grisha, sodomy is a big tent. Say, is that you under the bigtop?
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:55 PM By gravey
So we have homosexualist Chuck, quoting a homosexualist commentator from a homosexualist blogger. Not exactly a trifecta of credibility.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:23 PM By Mark from PA
You made a good point Grisha, but sadly some people want to dehumanize gay people, some people want to justify uncharitable attitudes and even prejudice and violence towards gay people. Also the term that they use refers to actions that are also quite common in the hetreosexual population. Perhaps they should judge not lest they be judged.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:35 PM By betty
I was pleasantly surprised to read that Maine had rejected homosexual "marriage", if you can call it that. Who cares if their educational level is relatively low (David). Their hearts seem to be in the right place. I live in a state where the educational level is relatively high but some wimps have managed to "legalize" "gay marriage".
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:41 PM By Laurette Elsberry
Grisha, if it's good enough for 1 Corinthians, 6-10, it's good enough for me: "nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the covetous,.....will possess the kingdom of God". Using the terms "gay" and "lgbt" affirm the disorientation of same-sex-attraction. You know that, and that is why you persist in using these bogus and deceptive words and terms.
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:32 PM By Ronnie
Is Chuck suggesting that they reason the Bishops and Church are opposed to same-sex marriage is because they will lose all of their future Priests because most of them are gay and they will reject the Priesthood if they are allowed to have a loving (?) same-sex relationship? I thought I heard everything....Well, I have news for Chuck, since the homosexual sex abuse scandal, gays are prohibited from entering the Priesthood now and espically in tradition orders we seem to be doing fine. Perhaps if we had enforced a policy which excluded gays, the majority of the abuse could have been avoided....
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 8:39 AM By Peter
All IRC section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religious organizations, must abide by certain rules:
w3.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 8:40 AM By Canisius
Grisha does the term sodomite offend you. hmm not surprising coming from a liberal, I find it quite humorous you find the term sodomite offensive, but I am willing to bet you find no offense in the act of sodomy. Sorry I deny your request
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 9:29 AM By JLS
Homosexualists dehumanize themeselves and others.
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 9:34 AM By JLS
Peter, the liberals will never remove the Church tax exemption because it would spell their own end ... as the bishops would then be "freed up" to back whomever they wanted, namely those ardently opposed to the sodomites and the abortionists. Again, if the bishops as a group wanted to get rid of abortion, all they'd have to do as a group is tell the faithful upon pain of excommunication whom to vote for. Simple. But the "smoke of Satan has entered the Church", and this is why it is not happening right off the bat ... it has nothing to do with the politicians or their rules for tax exemption ... it's solely in the bishops' court.
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 9:39 AM By JLS
Grisha, how many times does it have to be explained to you? Sodomites are not children of God, but of the devil. The sodomite movement is bent on putting so much enmity between the west and God as to bring on the Jihadic hordes to clean the face of the earth, so that the Church can once again rise to the glory of God. Sodomites bring about their own destruction in part by seeking to destroy all others along with them. That is why they need to be stopped; if it means a return to the Inquistion, then fine; that would be better than having the entire civilization vanquished by the scourges of God.
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 10:50 AM By Rick DeLano
Grisha doesn't like "sodomites", but that's exactly what Scripture tells us they are.
The Greek term employed by the Holy Spirit to condemn sodomites is "arsenokoites", from "arsen", meaning "male", and "koite", meaning "bed".
So God Himself tells us that these "man-bedders" are reprobabte and shall not enter the Kingdom.
The term "sodomite" wonderfully connects our understanding back to the biblical judgement upon Sodom, one which is a type and a warning to the man-bedders, the sodomites, of our time.
So, Grisha. It is understandable that you should object to the use of this term.
But, we must, after all, obey God and not man.
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 11:19 AM By Mark from PA
Grisha, do you understand now? You cannot make people accept those that they despise. Their words show what is in their hearts. Yesterday, I heard from a young person who spoke at a public meeting. She told of how terribly she was treated in high school. I could see that she had tears in her eyes and admired her courage. How do we protect our young people from hatred and bullying? Things are getting better but we still have a long way to go.
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 1:22 PM By Rick Gibson
For those who genuinely want to separate church and state on this issue, I think the proper position is that the state should be neutral on gay relationships. It should neither endorse them, nor should it persecute me. Permitting gay marriage is a state endorsement of gay relationships. Permitting civil unions, on the other hand, is a neutral position. It prevents state persecution of, or discrimination against, gay relationships, but it does not affirmatively endorse their morality. I think it is a proper position. When gays find civil unions unacceptable, and demand marriage, they are basically asking the state to outlaw Catholic teaching on this issue. Lets be clear about this. Advocates of gay marriage are attacking the Church. We are not attacking them; we are simply defending.
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 1:23 PM By Canisius
Hey Mark from PA, I will judge you and every other sodomite that pretends to be Catholic. Not buying your "judge not lest yet be judge" attitude, I know for fact that I am a better Catholic than any sodomite
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 2:48 PM By Mark from PA
Canisius, I am not pretending to be Catholic. But I do admit that many of the bishops do prefer the term sodomite to gay. Bishop Malone and many of the other bishops would probably agree with Canisius and Laurette here. I admit that some of these bishop want gay people out of the Church. JLS, you say that gay people are children of the devil but this is not Church teaching. You may one of the few people here that seeks a return to the Inquisition. I know that you approve of the death penalty, but the Inquisition? Would this apply to gay teens also? Should they also be wiped out by an Inquistion?
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 3:02 PM By Mark from PA
Well Mark F, I am awaiting your comment on the Inquisition? Do you think we need a new one to rid the world of gay people?
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Posted Friday, November 13, 2009 6:33 PM By JLS
Gay people are active homosexuals, and thus are doing the bidding of the devil. This makes them children of the devil. Those who have some same sex attraction but reject it are following God's Law and Will and are not children of the devil, unless of course there is something else they do that would make them so. Thus, your rant about children of the devil not being part of Church teaching is false. As for the Inquistion issue: Better get rid of some tares than have the whole field of grain burned.
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:38 AM By 1abqdad
So...Is it better for the church in SF to spend over $100,000 to promote gays adopting babies? Give me a break!
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:00 AM By 1abqdad
Mark from PA - We do NOT hate the "person"...ever, but we DO reject sin and associated sinful behaviors! Unless your Bible is missing some versus, God makes it quite clear many times that homosexual activity is a grave sin! The homosexual is NOT a "sin", as a person can NOT be a "sin"...only an act or thought. It's really that simple! Yes, it is really unfortunate that you have those feelings, but that does NOT change God's laws! If you don't like it, complain to God, but stop vilifying those of us who are simply following God! Yes, there are many PC fools that falsely try to "justify" and "tolerate" all manners of sin, but that does NOT change God's mind! After all, God/Jesus will judge you, not blasphemous preachers! Sorry! Do you "belong" with us in God's church? Of course! BUT, not while you make false claims about Christ's teachings! We only seek God's truth, NOT man's false rantings! (I could care less about what some "person"/"man" has to say! I ONLY care about what God says, and he was quite definitive in the Bible about the totally unacceptable nature of homosexual acts!) Yes, it is extremely difficult to be "gay" in this world...Just as there are many challenges in life! (We are called to carry OUR cross...what ever that "cross" may be!) But, to falsely attempt to "normalize" actions that God specifically defines as unquestionably sinful numerous times in the Bible is just WRONG! You are welcome...Sin is NOT! (You as a homosexual are most welcome, but homosexual acts are NOT!)
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:15 AM By 1abqdad
It's too bad that the liberal fanatics just don't "get it" when it comes to this issue. They automatically make it an "anti-gay" fight, when that is NOT reality! It is about the sanctity of a sacrament! If they could get off of their high horses long enough to look at the church's TRUE position, they would see how they are behaving like spoiled brats! The victim mentality is getting really old...fast! Anyone that disagrees with you is a "homophobe" of other "un-PC term! You attack that which you do NOT understand and fail to make any attempt to understand! (Classic liberal hypocrisy!) The situation is rather simple... The church has an obligation to protect the sanctity of the sacrament of matrimony...period! (I'm sorry but God defines sacraments, NOT you!) Anyway, if you want some type of legal protection, this is NOT the way to do that! In fact, there are much better and easier ways to accomplish that task... that are presently legal and valid in all 50 states! So, what is the REAL problem? In truth, you want to see the sin of the ACT of Homosexuality changed. Well, that is God's law, NOT man's! (Read the Bible) What you really want is to have everyone say that it is alright to sin! NOT going to happen! You either accept God's word and associated doctrines or you don't. it that simple! BUT, we will NOT be bullied into calling a sinful act anything but what it is...a sin!
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:53 AM By The Truth Hurts
MarkfromPA, The only new "inquiry" needed is a swift and thorough investigation that completely rids parishes of false shepherds and teachers. These are the ones who have taught and deliberately misguided you and others that it is acceptable to disobey Almighty God. These false shepherds who also disobey God have taught confusion and encouraged you to serve your disordered lust over serving God. Serving your lust takes precedent over listening to the "infinite wisdom "of Almighty God. The devil knows that sinful misery loves sinful company. The devil knows that MarkfromPA's false charity toward homosexuals will give them encouragement to keep sinning. Notice how Markfrom PA never mentions that he tells homosexuals that God loves them but they cannot act on their feelings or lust. Mark just confirms them in their misery without the hope of God's grace. For the benefit of any new readers..."The Catholic Church teaches us to love all sinners but to hate all sin which separates us from God". False shepherds in their disordered misery have taught others who also struggle with SSA to love all forms of lust and to hate God's Laws. False shepherds teach that this disorder is a gift. This is one of the reasons that many are still lost and confused. Teaching others to accept sinful behavior is never a gift. How vile and insulting to breed hopelessness over God's plan to redeem all sinners. These are the shepherds who continually cement sinners in their sin. They will be held accountable for confusing people like Markfrom PA who foolishly claims he is a bi-sexual Catholic. The true gift is "faith and trust" in God's Laws that will always benefit each and everyone in their different struggles, as well as how they spend their Eternity. MarkfromPA is so lost in his own confusion that he continues to seek misery of company. Please MarkfromPA...Stop telling God and everyone else how big and powerful your storm is. Start telling your storm how big and powerful your God is!!!!!!!
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:16 PM By Anne T.
JLS, I do not think most people would want to bring back the inqusition, just excommunication for some people who are continually unrepentant and helping to destroy other people's bodies and souls.
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Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:19 PM By Abeca Christian
To rid the world of immortal sinful lifestyles and help them choose God and His ways, YES! Never to rid the world of any person or persons, it is their choosing to sin and not choosing to carry their cross that affects us all like cancer because we are all sinners, but to help bring Jesus to all men and to help them turn away from all sin! We have no right to assume that people want to rid itself of certain groups of people, that is such a silly assumption, that is such a lie, because anyone with the right logic would understand that a Christian knows that they can not take a life away, but any true Christian understands that we only want to reach salvation in Christ, we not only seek it for ourselves but for others as well because we have kindred hearts full of Christ's love and mercy! Capisci!!!
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Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:24 PM By Mark from PA
So you would get rid of the tares, JLS? What other people besides homosexuals should this new Inquisition get rid of? And no gay people are not children of the devil, this is just your twisted thinking. It is certainly NOT Catholic teaching. Gay people are equal in dignity and humanity to others. Yes God loves gay people just as he loves others. And He forgives them their faults and failings just as He forgives the faults, failings and yes lusts also of straight people because we are all His children.
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Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:29 PM By Mark from PA
I noticed on that list that every month Marc Mutty got over $4900. from the money collected. I don't take home that much in 2 months. What a sweet deal for him. Also Bishop Malone got $150.00 every month. So he gets to tap the collections a little? In my mind this money would have been better off given to Catholic schools or perhaps as aid to people that can't afford Catholic schools for their kids. What a shame? Well, at least they are good politicians.
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Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:46 PM By JLS
Anne T., the Church and Catholic leaning governments have many resources, among which are the militant measures. The reason these resources exist is that there are times when they are needed. God has many ways of scourging the earth. An "inquistion" would be one such way, not that it is a good thing, but that God sometimes sends scourges to clean up a mess and wake up the faithful. The Inquistion was a secular thing run by secular government. Who knows what that government would have done with its power if there were no heretics to burn? Sometimes governments persecute the Church, both in history and now in some places.
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Posted Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:07 PM By gravey
Mark from PA, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing, leading the weak into error and sin. Scandalous.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 12:24 AM By mark
Here’s an idea to force the donor names from National Organization for Marriage who are bragging they aren’t being forced to disclose their donors.
Threaten a class action lawsuit representing every No on 1 donor who’s names are publicly released. OUR donors face equal or a higher level of threat for our political stance as Yes on 1 donors.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 7:19 AM By Canisius
Mark from PA call me Tomas De Torquemada "Defender of the Faith". Yes its time to for a wholesale Inquisition on how the Church as become haven for fey priests who still reside getting a wink and a nod from complicit Bishops. Why do I think they are satanic. How better for the Devil to attack the faithful than corrupt the Church from the inside. But you and the rest of the pogressives find nothing morally wrong with sodomites or their behavior. At the public meeting you mentioned did you and the rest of the Tolerance police ever think of giving the young girl in question moral guidance, instead of trying to force acceptance of her behavoir on the rest of us. Probably not, why because progressives are morally bankrupt people and cannot and will not make judgements
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 1:04 PM By Dave N.
The downside of all this is that it shows the bishops' ability to spend money on whatever they please. I'm thinking it could be just as easy to list some bad causes that the bishops have contributed over the years, including the CCHD.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 1:49 PM By Anne T.
Terry Garden, if the churches lose their tax exemption, than we should not have to pay any taxes except for roads, streets, military (and only when it is for our own country's self-defense), etc. that is abosolutely necessary. We should not have to be taxed for abortion, contraception or any of that other "stuff". We should not be taxed for public schools either. As a matter of fact, in Arkansas most of the highways are ran by the Native American Indian tribes with a small toll. They run them quite efficiently without the government. So a lot of things that are ran by the government now, could be privatized.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 1:51 PM By Anne T.
Mark, that works both ways. Anti-prop 8 people could be forced to give names also. Two can play the same game. You know? I am going to buy more things from Maine and some of these other states.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 2:04 PM By Anne T.
Rick Gibson, even civil unions are an endorsement of the behavior. I think single people of whatever orientation (actually temptations) should be allowed to give their property, healthcare management, etc. to anyone they want. This can all be easily done with wills, power of attorneys, etc. The cost is minimal and most husbands and wives have had to put money from their own pockets into doing such things, so why not these "pardners". After all, marriage benefits were always there for women and children, so they were not left with no support, or a man if he had to take care of and support the children by himself. Mark F. was right when he said no-fault divorce has helped to destroy families. The only ones, at least most of the time, who are for such things are those doing the cheating or the naive.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 3:48 PM By Mark from PA
Canisius, I never heard of Torquemada or the Inquisition when I went to Catholic school. I have looked up some things about him. He was instrumental in expelling the Jews from Spain in 1492. Jewish people who converted to the Catholic Church were targeted by the Inquisition. As the Jews were being driven from Spain, many converted to the Catholic Church, to escape persecution and expulsion. People of the Jewish faith we not targeted by the Inquisition, only the converts as they were not trusted by some. Moorish converts were also targeted. Pope Sixtus IV condemned the excesses of the Inquisition. He decried the severe torture, accusations of heresy and theft of property from those sentenced to death. Some people fled to the Holy See for protection. Nowhere in my readings did I hear anything in the Inquisition against "fey" priests. Perhaps you can find someone better to idolize, Canisius.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 3:57 PM By Mark from PA
I have found inspiration in some of the Popes. Blessed Pope John XXIII was a wonderful Pope and man. Pope Paul VI was also a man of goodness. I have been inspired also by the life of Pope John Paul II. He suffered much in his life but had a great love for people. He helped free Poland from communism and in a way his pontificate helped to end communism as we knew it. Pope John Paul I was also a holy man but sadly we did not get to see the good that he would have done as Pope as he was taken from us way too soon. None of these Popes were perfect or impeccable but they faithfully served God and His Church. Canisius, I think most of our priests are faithful servants who care about the people that they serve. You may look down your nose on our "fey" priests but I am thankful for the good priests that I have known. If you think progressive priests are satanic then I feel sorry for you.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 5:02 PM By Canisius
Mark from PA I dont care what you have found inspiration from. I am not surprised that you thank God for fey priests. I know that Tomas De Torquemada help rid Catholic Spain of Moors and the faithless Jews and I thank God for men like him, Charles Martel, and the other real men of the Church who have defended her from her enemies, But to more to my point, I asked if you and the tolerance police sought to give the young girl moral guidance, rather than having people like me accept her lifestyle as "normal". Again you do not answer direct questions because you are bereft of morality. Its no wonder you found inspiration from two of the most liberal popes in her history, you are very predictable like most liberals.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 5:26 PM By JLS
Spain during the Inquistion was in grave danger of being once again conquered by Islam. The Catholic government did what it did for the benefit of the Church and Spain. England also had kicked out all the Jews at one point. It's always about who controls the money. Who do you want controlling the nation's finance system?
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 6:37 PM By Anne T.
The reason Queen Isabella ended up expelling some or most of the Jewish people at that time was this: the Spanish Christians and the Moors (Muslims), who were mostly Arab and later from parts of Africa, were fighting. It started when the Muslims went up into Northern Africa and wiped out many peaceful Jewish and Christian areas because they would not accept Mohammed as the greatest and last prophet. The Northern Africans were not converted to Judaism or Christianity by the sword, but by peaceful means. There were many Christians monesteries there. The Muslims later went all the way into Spain and oppressed the Spanish Christians, putting them under a special tax. They even kidnapped, and they still do to Coptic Christian children today, Christian boys and forced them into their armies to fight against their own people. At first the Jews of Spain were not involved, then many of them started to turn on Queen Isabella and fight with the Moors. That is when she gave most of the Jewish people the choice to convert or get out of the country. We can sit here and say she was wrong, but everyone of us Christians should ask ourselves: What would we have done if we were a Christian Queen under the same circumstances? Does any of this sound familiar today? The answer is, in some cases it sure does. The Catholic history can all be found in "Characters of the Inquisition" and "The Last Crusader, Isabella", both by William Thomas Walsh and "Saints of Africa" by Vincent J. O'Malley, C.M.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 6:37 PM By JLS
Any power moving any social organization to persecute the Church sometimes gets away with it for a while, but sometimes does not. Often the allies of the Church defend the Church by violent means such as military force. One has to discern between Church force against some group and anti-Church force against some group. The nazis were an anti-Church force against several groups including the Church. Islam has past conquered by violence much of Catholic lands ... and has past been driven out by allies of the Church. Whether the group opposing the Church is Jewish bankers or Islamic jihadists or some totalitarian political regime ... the Church is guaranteed to withstand them all. The means used by the Church depends upon what God provides in each instance. One has to trust God and not the opposition. If God's voice is not clear to someone, then they need to do what it takes in the way of gaining communion with God so as to hear His voice clearly. This process is called becoming holy; the Pope has recently called for the faithful to become holy. This is the ticket to peace, as it tends to remove the moral vulnerability which the scourges of God seek. Without vulnerability and with holiness, many souls among the scourges develop respect and no longer want to destroy the Church but to join Her. Those who detest the Church and seek to destroy or enslave Her are fair game for whatever God has to protect His One Institution.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 11:14 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Chuck Anziulewicz,
You know darn well that Andrew Sullivan is a militant sodomite activists, why didn't you write that when you quoted him?
God bless, and forgive you, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:50 AM By markf
JLS, I don't thinkthat gay people are children of the devil, any more than any hardened sinner is. But you can't serve two masters and anyone who puts their sinful nature over their living God is serving their sin and thus is violating the first commandment. I think that is different from being a child of the devil though. The more I think about it, it is the homosexual philosophy that is the greater evil. We all sin, so the behavior itself is not the largest problem. But this philosophy places one particular sin as a false idol and guarantees that a person not only does not seek forgiveness but actually seeks to enshirne that sin as a pagan deity. And yes, I am all for the denial of communion for public sinners.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:43 AM By JLS
markf, I distinguish between "gay" people and homosexualists. "Gay" is a word I take as a political thing. Jesus told the political leaders who opposed Him that they were sons of the devil.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:07 AM By Abeca Christian
LOL Mark from PA you are a comedian! Aye fellow, that ye are! You say "that is not church teaching" How hypocritical of ye! If ye follow church teachings then ye have the right to say such comment but since ye does not, reading from your many prior comments on homosexual 'gay agenda's" ye call them, you are against church teachings on such issues. How can ye bloody say such comments when ye does not come across as a fellow who seeks to follow church teachings especially on homosexual issues. Ye contradicts your self way to much fellow yellow! Capisci!
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:48 PM By Mark from PA
Canisius, so Torquemada was a "real man" because he helped to rid Spain of Moors and Jews. I thank God for people like Pope John Paul II who reached out to the Jewish people and showed his respect and love for them. The Church has changed in its attitude towards the Jews since World War II. It is a great tragedy that many Catholics took part in the extermination of Jewish people during World War II. If I am correct, before he was Pope, John XXIII assisted and protected Jewish people during World War II. He was a great man. Canisius, are you truly more inspired by Torquemada more than you are by Blessed Pope John XXIII, a man of great goodness and holiness?
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:57 PM By Mark from PA
Abeca Christian, it is one thing to hate people but it is another thing to call people one hates, "Children of the devil." I suppose that I heard black people referred to in this way when I was young but not since I was an adult. I just thought that it was prejudiced talk. I never heard gay people referred to this way until I came here.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:40 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
Yes God forgives even the sodomites and the promiscuous heterosexuals, but only if they repent and have a firm purpose of amendment. You seem to always leave that very important part out!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:20 AM By Mark from PA
So Abeca Christian, who do you respect more, Blessed Pope John XXIII or Tomas de Torquemada?
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:00 AM By Abeca Christian
PA hmmm, I suppose here on earth we can not make such a harsh judgment only God can, about people being children of the devil just yet, but on their death bed, should they not repent and make perfect contrition, should they not be saved, I care to clarify, then if they end up in hell, what else can we call them? Children of the devil sounds just right I gather. But while anyone is here on earth, we can not ignore the fact that we worship a merciful and loving God, and we hope that those embracing mortal sin, will make perfect contrition and repair what they have harmed against our Lord before they die. Only our Lord knows their hearts.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:13 PM By Mark from PA
Abeca Christian, we are all sinners and we are all dependent on God's mercy and love. None of us live lives of Christian perfection but God still loves us with the unconditional love of a parent. We must trust in God's mercy. Thank God we have good shephards, Blessed John XXIII, was one, to guide us along the way. I have never heard any of our Popes say that non-Christians or others are "children of the devil." I have been inspired by many of our Popes and their love and compassion for God's people.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:21 PM By JLS
PA, in the days of the Inquisition, it was not an issue of persecuting Jews and Moslems, but of saving Catholics. Once again, PA, you omit the repentant part of Catholic sinners. You never repent, and thus cannot be a member of the repentant sinners ... thus not really a Catholic. Also, your denial by the sin of ommission of this fact puts you in a state of heresy, since you preach that there is no need to repent from one's sin.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:51 PM By markf
Abeca, Canisius and Kenneth F., you won't get anything but frustration on the line that you're pursuing there. Please, for the love of God, just let it go. I know it's hard, believe me. But you risk being sucked into a whirlpool of confusion and deception. That - the confusion and deception - is the lesson we can all learn here, but we can't fix it. Trying to fix it only makes it worse. Hence the solution is to ignore, ignore, ignore.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:40 PM By JLS
PA, your accusations are groundless in trying to deceive readers that anyone who says anything about doctrinal corrective measures is against the Jews. How many references have your read on the Inquistion? Do you know who the king and queen of Spain were at the time? Did you know that the secular educational system supports the idea that Christopher Columbus is now located in the lower reaches of Hell? Do you know that secular history books are extremely biased and opposed to the truth of history? Have you read any actual bona fide Catholic history written by actual faithful Catholics, who do not dissent from any Magisterial doctrine at all?
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 8:40 PM By Abeca Christian
PA yes we are all sinners, that is not new news my friend. My spiritual intelligence is a lot more deeper. I understand that I am a sinner and therefore I wish to daily make a humble supplication to our Lord to help me avoid sin and to sin no more. There is venial sins and there are immortal sins. The problems lies in the ones who embrace sin and promote it. The ones who do not lovingly and humbly turn to God for help, they are the ones who blatantly are defiant and choose their own will over God's will. Mortal sins and various types of venial sins can make us spiritually blind.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:46 PM By Anne T.
Canisius, I would not be for a Spanish type Inquisition, but a counter-reformation, yes. And, I believe the counter-reformation has already started between the Church and the Anti-church.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:13 AM By Grisha
While there is debate about whether the Pope could and should have done more to save the Jews during the Holocaust, my impression is that the story of the courage of ordinary Catholics is one that still needs to be researched and told. According to an Orthodox Jewish leader in Liviv, Ukraine it was not uncommon for Jews about to be seized to leave their small children in the care of Catholic neighbors who gave them Christian names and for pastors to falsify baptismal records to, if need be, prove to the Nazi's they were weren't Jewish.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:59 AM By Mark from PA
Grisha, I actually read a book about how tens of thousands of Jewish children were saved by Polish nuns during World War II. There are tens of thousands of people in Poland today who were saved this way. Some were returned to their families but others (some of whom were sheltered by Polish families) stayed with their adoptive families as their families had been murdered. It should be noted that the Nazis considered it a capital crime for Polish people to aid Jewish people and at this time the Catholic Church in Poland was suffering great persecution by the Nazis, some 20% of Polish priests died as a result of Nazi terror.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:57 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, you tell me that I am not a Catholic but you need to read what you wrote on "Breakaways" 11/16, 9:21 PM. You said there that pretty much all Christians were part of the Catholic Church, even some Baptists. King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were the rulers of Spain in 1492. They did many good things and united Spain but driving out most Jews and executing others was not good. Columbus Day is a state holiday in PA so I have never heard the idea that Christopher Columbus is in the lower reaches of hell. In school we read much about Columbus and also many other explorers in History class. I have a degree in History so have read much about this and taken many courses. However, I don't recall studying the Inquisition. I have also read much of Catholic history. You say that I never repent. Who are you to say this to me. I have gone to confession 3 times this year (I know I should go more). I also attend Mass 2 or 3 times a week. When and where did I ever preach that there is no need to repent from one's sins? You are certainly putting words in my mouth here.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:31 PM By Canisius
Markf thanks for the kind advice, but people like Grisha and PA need to be defeated completely. I am person who loves to fight, and will do so until I close my eyes for the last time. Grisha of course thinks there is a debate whether Pius XII did enough to save Jews. The whole controversy was started by a Jewish playwright from East Germany, there is no debate except for the liberals who detest traditional Catholics who adore Pius XII, people like Grisha.
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