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“A good way to scare and control people”

Nun who says Church’s teachings on sexual morality result of “patriarchal dominance in the hierarchy” leads retreat in Danville


San Damiano Retreat center in Danville -- 42 miles east of San Francisco -- hosted a retreat this month with a Franciscan sister who, with her priest team-teacher, has addressed numerous Catholic audiences on the subject of sex. Sr. Fran Ferder led a women’s retreat, “Awaken to the Sacred,” at the center Aug. 8-10, according to the “Administrative Weekly,” an official communication of the Oakland diocese.

Ferder is a frequent presenter at conferences held by Call to Action, a group that dissents from Church teachings on women’s ordination, contraception, homosexuality, and other matters. With Fr. John Heagle, a priest for the Diocese of La Crosse, Wisconsin, she co-directs Therapy and Renewal Associates in Seattle.

In an interview on The Social Edge.com, Heagle said that his and Sister Fran's hope "is that the institutional Church will only come to this deeper and richer understanding of human sexuality if it listens to the love stories of all the people... to people for whom loving is their life." The Church, he said, should hear the “voices of married persons, single people, or the gay and lesbian community as well. We not only need to expand our vision of sexuality, but we also need to expand the inclusivity with which we listen to their stories."

Ferder deplores the “dualism” of Catholic sexual teaching. Dualism, that has been present in Christianity for centuries, Ferder said in a 2003 interview with U.S. Catholic, and which, she said, “divides body from soul.” Though Christianity itself is “incarnational, embodied, fleshed,” many Christians, she said, “labor under messages that sexual mistakes, even small ones, are about the most offensive thing that one can engage in relationship to God.”

Church leaders, she said, reinforce this message. “My personal belief is that these negative messages have to do with control and maintaining power,” she said. “The patriarchal dominance in the hierarchy is incredibly strong, and sexual mandates are a good way to scare and control people.”

Ferder said that the book she authored with Heagle, Tender Fires: The Spiritual Promise of Sexuality, was written in part “for the many people who have moved beyond the belief that the hierarchy has the last word on what's right and wrong in sexuality.” Among the messages the book conveys, she said, is that “sexuality and spirituality really belong together… Sexuality is energy for relationships.”

Sex is “bigger” than genital behavior, Ferder said, who noted that “children need to learn age-appropriate sexual anatomy and physiology and prevention, but I'd like to see it more in the context of relationships.” The Church, she said, has to give more positive messages of sexuality. “We need to redesign, rearticulate the whole theology of body touch, body exploration,” she said. “Ordinary genital self-touch can be very important and can help children come to reverence their bodies, to know them.”

Speaking of chastity, Ferder said, it is “loving reverence in relationships -- how we stand before people, and ourselves.

“The Catechism has a great definition of chastity: a school of the gift of the self. It says chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person. And that's the inner unity of people in their bodily and spiritual being. It says some good things,” said Ferder.


READER COMMENTS

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:32 AM By JLS
Feder is trying to be something she is not, and that is why she is scared. Fr. Heagle has no idea what he is talking about.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:27 AM By Joseph
It kind of scares me when a supposedly celibate sister and a celibate priest are experts on things like, "... theology of body touch, body exploration..."

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:40 AM By Fr. M.P.
Our Lady of Fatima said that most souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh, and here are two consecrated persons merrily helping that cause. Pray for these blind guides who may fall into the pit and take many with them.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:18 AM By Jo Ann
I attended several "retreats" there 23 years ago when it was still "Catholic". How sad that it has deteriorated to this. Where is Bishop Vigneron? So many souls are being led down the path of losing their Faith and this seems to be the pattern at most "retreat centers". The Diabolical Disorientation is moving right along and sadly, reaping quite a harvest.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:52 AM By Eileen
I am surprised that Sister Fran Herder deplores "dualism." Sister Fran Herder and Fr. John Heagle have been dual heretics for years.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:09 AM By Canisius
Is there a way where we as laymen just force these perverts out of the Church. I know if I met them my violent tendencies would take over, I have had it with them all, it is time for a rightist rebellion in Church

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:44 AM By BJ
'Sister' Fran looks from her photo like she'd be happier writing for a secular magazine sexual hangup page;and why not go there and do that rather than bring shame on our religion? Her comments also fit the secular sex obsession genre and it is just amazing how she can even be considered to be in the same 'calling' as Mother Theresa, or the many thousands of genuine holy women who dedicate their entire lives to helping the poor, sick and spiritually needy. Sister Fran is unfortunately in the front line of the last category but would she be able to recognise that? Let's pray for her.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:13 AM By Chris
While the protestants are talking about Christ, salvation, Jesus, "born again", our "sisters" and "priests" are talking about sex. Don't you see anything wrong with this picture?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:20 AM By Fr. J
Few people are scarier then nutty nuns and they LOVE to control people. I do admit I am afraid of Fr. Heagle's "inclusive" vision of sexuality. If I lived in his rectory I would keep my door locked at night. I assume these people have never heard of theology of the body?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:29 AM By Marie
I seem to recall from a prior CalCatholic that Fran Ferder will be "appearing" in September at a lesbian and gay Catholic (?) event along with the next Ordinary of Sacramento, Bishop Jaime Soto. Why can't Catholic religious, priests and bishops tend to the teaching the Faith instead of corrupting it with a constant justification of homosexuality?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:40 AM By Lassie
Whoa... I can have a field day with this woman's ideas. However, I will exercise restraint for the sake of not pushing unstable people over the edge. Besides, if you want to do whatever you feel like doing, it is a lot easier to reject religion completely and be an atheist. That is the path that I recommend to any aspiring moral anarchist. It is certainly a lot easier than coming up with clever ways to distort religious teachings in an attempt to justify your actions.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:52 AM By John70
Can someone please enlighten me as to why these "clowns" are still considered Catholics? They belong with the Unitarians or the Klingons! If they are not happy with our faith, they should remove themselves or be removed.Permanently.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:53 AM By Maria C
These people make me sick. Teaching heretical views in their leadership roles should cause them to be excommunicated for misleading people and disrespecting Jesus's church.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:45 AM By Papamac
Just another example of the HERETICS that call themselves Catholic, of couple of jokers who would lead you straight to the gates of hell just to get their own warped views published. MAY GOD BLESS

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:46 AM By betty
I agree with what you say about "patriarchal dominance in the hierarchy: but I think we should start with small things, not big ones. This is what I call a small thing. In our parish the choir started singing a Gloria which I thought was awful (I've already discussed this before on this website). The Gloria was swingy and loud and the choir members clapped in time to it. Talking to my priest about it seemed pretty hopeless so I started imitating them, singing loud and clapping my hands etc. The parish priest talked to my husband and told him to tell me to stop. That's what I call patriarchal. Wht didn't he talk to me directly? My husband, by the way, told him to talk to me himself. I think if you start with small incidents like this then you can go on to bigger and more important ones.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:16 AM By Trudy
John L.S., Where are you? We need you on this one.....BIG TIME!!!!!!!

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:21 AM By Grisha
I hope John L. is just on vacation and isn't sick.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:01 AM By Life Lady
John Paul II, in his teaching on Theology of the Body, in no way gave any kind of an impression that touching, exploration and all that, were a part of that theology. His explanation of Humana Vitae was clearly founded in scripture and in that beautiful encyclicle. To see her twist that up into something perverted, makes my skin crawl The enemy will use anyone and anything to make a counterfeit from the real thing. She is not the real thing, and neither, it appears, is her partner.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:11 AM By Siena
I'm sick to my stomach. Where do you go for a traditional orthodox catholic retreat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:16 AM By hrh
Wow, haven't come across so many Kool-Aid drinkers in a long while. Remember, sheeple, your donations that aren't being paid out to victims of predatory clergy are going mostly to keep the good-ole-girls Bish Club in the style to which they have become accustomed. You know, chauffered Towncar, open bar, luxury accommodations, first-class only travel, exotic vacations. And I'm sure they thank you for your sacrifices. After all, they are entitled. Not to mention arrogant, condescending, avaricious (EXTREMELY avaricious), disconnected and entitled. Oh, yeah, TOTALLY entitled. Now, just pay, pray, obey, and go away. They've got things to do.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:29 AM By George
For Sr. Fran, Fr. John and betty, I hate to break the news to you, but the Roman Catholic Church is by its very nature and design created as a hierarchical Church that is dominated by patriarchs. Duh! No one is holding you here. Being immature (singing loud and clapping) and disobedient is not going to change the format of the One, True, Holy, and Apostolic Church. If you want a matriarchal church, go to the episcopal church. I would venture to say that it is these types of difficulties are why St. Paul prohibited women from preaching/teaching from authoritative positions. They just don't/won't get it. It isn't about ability, but about roles, responsibilities, and obedience to God.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:49 AM By Margie R
I hope Sister Fran and her priest will also come to a deeper realization of human sexuality and she can find it by attending one of Christopher West's Theology of the Body seminars or by reading John Paul II's "Theology of the Body." The beauty, the truth, the unimaginable goodness of the plans of Our Creator, God the Father, are contained in the study of the Theology of the Body. Let's not reinvent the wheel, sister.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:51 AM By Antonio
These two should be excommunicated. They enjoy the titles and privileges of clergy, yet practice none of the vows. They own a home and live together in Oregon. Their focus on the spirituality of sex is unquestionably their way of trying to justify -- even sanctify -- the true nature of their relationship, which, for all intents and purposes, is a marriage. Too bad for all the nuns and priests who felt they had to leave the clergy to marry. Who knew you were allowed to change the system from within by simply living a lie?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:55 AM By M.R.
Sister Ferder, what is that crazy emblem or piece of jewelry displayed upon your neck? If it is a cross, I am having a hard time recognizing it as such. If it is not a cross, what symbol have you, as a bride of Christ, chosen to display upon your chest? “Ordinary genital self-touch can be very important and can help children come to reverence their bodies, to know them.” Satan, the Father of Lies(not the Mother of Lies) agrees with Sister. He wants us to focus on ourselves, corrupt the youth, and emphasize the physical rather than the spiritual. Sister Feder, please stay away from our children. Better that you should hang a stone around your neck and plunge yourself into the sea than corrupt one of the least of God's little ones with your trash talk. How about reverencing the Body of Christ?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:08 PM By Barry
Here you see two reasons why the Church is slowly going the way of the dinasour. Either we wake up and throw these sick people out of the Church, or we ride the roller coaster down. There's nothing inbetween.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:51 PM By JLS
I've adopted a pen name, which I will not reveal.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:53 PM By JLS
The pendant on her neck looks like four fish biting each other.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:55 PM By JLS
hrh, you didn't mention the "Bad Bishops Motorcycle Club".

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 1:38 PM By JP
JLS a pen name? so you can hide, nice. While I don't agree with everything the Fr and Sr say and do i think their questioning is bringing about change or at least interest in change. The church is full of sinners, most of which have been in power for too long, you as lay people want to get rid of them, get off your butts and form committees write letters, back clergy you trust and believe are following God. God will be with you if you are truly following him. The choice is ours follow God or follow the Church they are not always the same thing.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 1:42 PM By St. Christopher
This priest and this nun must be forced out of their orders or parishes and out of the Church. They are nothing more than shills for Satan. How many people will have their souls threatened by listening to these evil ones? Where is the good bishop in all of this? Or the Vatican?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:02 PM By Eileen
M.R., That crazy emblem is the Fran Ferder False Sheep Herder emblem!

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:04 PM By M.R.
I forsee some not so "tender fires" for these two renegades if they don't duck into the nearest confesssional, repent, and reform their lives.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:43 PM By Victoria
Well, I've just been sitting here for the past few minutes with my mouth open. I Cannot believe this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where do they come up with this stiff? And who gave them permission for such an experiment???? This Gives Me The Creeps!!!!!!! JLS & Eileen, I'll tell you what that pendant looks like. The Blue Max, given to German Fighter Pilots.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:24 PM By Jay
A nun with a mullet. . . .now I've seen everything!

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:30 PM By simone dubois
it's obvious this silly folks don't believe in hell but they will when they get there. For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:40 PM By simone dubois
P.S. the Church doesn't scare me but these guys sure do

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:18 PM By Lassie
I think I know what Victoria is talking about. For a while I have been posting some of the most crazy things on this site and I thought most people would realize that I was not for real since since the things that I was posting were way out there in the Twilight Zone. I now realize that there are some people in this world that are for real when it comes to promoting crazy stuff. I have decided to discontinue posting totally spaced out stuff over here because some disturbed person (probably living in San Francisco) would be inspired by such postings to do God knows what.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:24 PM By RecoveringFeminist
The heretical "teachings" of the Dissenting Duo of Ferder/Heagle should be a concern to anyone--Catholic or pagan. If the bishops are concerned about sexual abuse, what about the potential soul abuse of these two?

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:38 PM By William
Can someone please tell me the last time Fr. Heagle said Holy Mass in the Diocese of LaCrosse? I Thought Archbishop Burke gave him the boot. Talk about double-knit, polyester dinosaurs.....

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:45 PM By Anne T.
What this woman fails to tell people is that children or people who become addicted to "self-touch" quite often have difficulty in their marital relations later because they are so "self-centered" that they don't know how to communicate with their marital partner. Give me John Paul II's "Theology of the Body" over this garbage.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:05 PM By JLS
I think it's phishes biting each other; she's phishing for dollars ... working the ethereal realms for lost souls. The Iron Cross you're referring, in the "Blue Max" movie was the First World War, not the one with the Nazies.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:26 PM By JLS
JP, I'm repositioning myself into the cave of anonymity. When all is quiet on a battle field, it does not mean that the battle is over. Gideon was instructed by God to watch how his men drank from the pond. Those that cupped the water and brought it up to their faces while keeping an eye on the surroundings were the ones he was ordered to continue with.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:27 PM By Victoria R.
These people are both under authority. Someone had to authorize this. Someone else, someone higher up, will have to answer for this.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:40 PM By Eileen
Victoria, This is another example type of disobedience. How evil is it that after the horrific scandals that these two and many like them are running around giving sex workshops? You would think that common sense would shut these two down. These two should be wearing ankle bracelets with flashing lights and a warning siren. Who would ever trust these two with anyone they loved. These are two perverted people. You asked who gave them permission? Other disobedient people gave them permission. There are wolves in sheep's clothing who approve of this. This kind of disobedience goes hand in hand with scandals. Notice how they all disobey the teachings. They hate the teachings of the Church because it curbs their freedom to sell sin. What is even sadder Victoria is that there are people who think this is great. There are many good priests and nuns who serve God's Church faithfully. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail. Our Lady said, "In the end my Immaculate Heart Will Triumph!' I am praying for you Victoria. You are not their victim anymore. Also remember what I told you about St. Rita, the St. of the Impossible. Victoria the Victorious sounds very good too.

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:39 PM By Victoria R.
THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE SMOKE OF satan!!!

Posted Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:28 PM By Anne T.
Would you want these two alone with your child, even if both of these "adults" were there? Not in a million years! I hope they aren't teaching children in Catholic schools.

Posted Friday, August 22, 2008 12:10 PM By M.R.
My son, if sinners try to seduce you, do not give way... If they say, come with us: throw in your lot with us... My son, do not follow them in their way, keep your steps out of their path...Proverbs 1.10-15

Posted Friday, August 22, 2008 3:04 PM By Trudy
'Betcha every pervert in America is gonna' sign up for this course.

Posted Friday, August 22, 2008 9:30 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
the Ferder Heagle "team" are a constant at Roger's annual dissent fest, the REC! In fact she once threatened some of our people, and maybe even me (I can't remember) if we did not stop exposing her errors! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com

Posted Friday, August 22, 2008 9:46 PM By Sally
Why haven't these people been fired?!? They're sick and leading others down their path to perversion.

Posted Saturday, August 23, 2008 12:54 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Sally, Unfortunately, they are supported by errant Hierarchy, as witnessed by Mahony's inviting them back time after time!! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com

Posted Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:28 PM By Trudy
Mr. Fisher, Ferder threatened you how? Boy these people have got SOME nerve.

Posted Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:16 AM By Sister Judith
Here is a quote from their website (www.tenderfires.com): "There is likely no more difficult question facing our churches, our families, and our personal lives today than that of human sexuality." That's what happens when you're obsessed with one subject -- you think everybody else is, too.

Posted Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:35 AM By barbaraterry
how in heavens name did you people arrive at such a point in your lives as to make sex so important an issue for a retreat??? You two are in the wrong profession. Please bishop, get them out of our religion.

Posted Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:53 AM By gravey
I think Jo Ann's question is really the crux of the matter. It bears repeating and perhaps more comment: : Where is Bishop Vigneron?

Posted Sunday, August 24, 2008 6:58 PM By Sister Judith
Ferder and Heagle are as creepy as they come, always sneaking around behind closed doors to hide their lifestyle. Why on earth are they allowed to teach their half-baked ideas at Seattle University? The administration there must be very easily hoodwinked.

Posted Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:21 PM By Antonio
The following item appeared in a 2006 Call To Action Western Washington newsletter, regarding a lawsuit that had been filed against Ferder, Heagle and others in Seattle: "LAWSUIT DISMISSED We are pleased to report that the lawsuit against Sr. Fran Ferder and Father John Heagle and others.....has been dismissed by the Court for lack of substance.....The Court found the accusations in the suit unfounded. The strongly documented response to the matter by Ferder and Heagle prompted the Court to dismiss the suit....." This item was written based on information from Ferder and Heagle, and it is UNTRUE. The case was NOT dismissed, it was WITHDRAWN by the plaintiff's attorney because one of the other defendants filed a vicious, retaliatory countersuit. It all happened so fast that Ferder and Heagle didn't have time to submit anything, much less a "strongly documented response."

Posted Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:22 PM By Trudy
But, Antonio, what were the circumstances of this litigation? Not the entire thing. Just the facts.

Posted Monday, August 25, 2008 11:25 AM By Antonio
You can find a long article that was written about it online under the title "Breach of Faith," by Nina Shapiro of The Seattle Weekly.

Posted Monday, August 25, 2008 11:29 AM By Merchan
I believe there are some sick people among us ,,,,she better retire to the woods ,,,,,in order to find God ..................

Posted Monday, August 25, 2008 8:08 PM By Doug
These two sure don't reflect the beauty I once personally experienced in the holy priests and nuns of my youth. Back then the Sisters of the Order of Saint Francis wore full habits that people of all faiths could recognize from afar off. They were such beautiful holy souls that didn't teach the children nor take proactive social positions on trash subjects like this that defied and disobeyed Roman Catholic teaching. These deceivers need our prayers, and we need to pray for the return of holy clergy. Pray your rosary daily and fervently. May God bless and restore the Roman Catholic Church to His Way!

Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:26 AM By Antonio
"With Fr. John Heagle.....she co-directs Therapy and Renewal Associates in Seattle." -- Incidentally, the Washington business license for Therapy and Renewal Associates expired in 2004.

Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:53 PM By Tom
Need a breath of fresh air regarding our Roman Catholic Faith? Visit www.dailycatholic.com it is beautiful. May Our Lord bless and keep you. May He shine His light on you. Pray the rosary daily for world peace.

Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:09 PM By JLS
Here is how authentic therapy works. It is very simple. This is a real life example. Yesterday I went to the desert with a buddy to explore a meteor crater. We had to walk a mile in 112* temp. Normally I'm in good shape for this sort of thing, but I had not eaten well for three days, I forgot to take my salt which to me is like an air conditioner with a little water. And I've been stressed out about several matters. These factors played into the effect of the heat on me. The ground temp was way too hot for my dog to accompany us ... a sporting dog in top shape. Half way there I began to experience heat stroke symptoms. So I increased water intake and poured it on my head. It continued to threaten me, but we were determined to look inside the crater, so we kept on going. I had not run into this for over forty years, but it was only nagging me. We got to the top, and in a while headed back down. It was not the climb nor the walk that was a problem but the heat. At last I prayed one Hail Mary, and almost immediately a cloud blocked the direct sun ... the slight shade lasted long enough for the nausea to retreat, and my head pain subsided some. There was no shade anywhere other than under one foot high bushes, and the surface was dark lava rock and sand ... very hot. We were keeping me wet and I paced out the water ration. I was worried, even though we had only a half mile to go to the kiosks and vehicles. I again prayed a Hail Mary, and another cloud blocked the sunlight overhead ... the physical relief was exactly no more nor no less than I needed. Had it not been for those two cloud events, I think I would have started to experience the next stages of the heat stroke, the absense of sweat and onset of tunnel vision heading for the black out stage. I finished my water a hundred yards to the "oasis", where it took a half hour to get back to a semblance of normal. That is how healing works ... by means of prayer ... not by means of pleasure.

Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:42 PM By Michel
And people ask me why I took refuge in the SSPX?

Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:13 PM By JLS
Michel, can you give us a clue?

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:53 AM By JLS
Michael, for the same reason that I took refuge in the Hail Mary ... I forgot to mention that those were the only two clouds that shaded us in those two hours of brinksmanship with nature.

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:09 AM By Grisha
Michel: Sister Ferder and Fr. Heagle are at one extreme of Catholicism and the SSPX is at the other. Neither bears much relationship to the vast majority of American Catholics living our lives in our parishes day to day.

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:17 AM By Grisha
JLS: For God's sake, we arn''t 23 any more. If it's too hot for dogs it's too hot for man!

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:44 PM By JLS
Grisha, I suffered worse heat stroke at that young age. First time it hit me, was in a column route stepping to a training site at Camp Pendleton in the Springtime ... I notified the training sergeant that I felt dizzy, and had never before experienced it. That was also when I discovered that Marine Corps sergeants were actually human and cared for their buddies ... he ordered me to sit with head down for at least an hour, and assigned two others to make sure I did. I was a fairly tough character too, so it could have been embarrassing, but there was no derision from anyone. The second time I was in college and peddling a fifty mile circuit with no water, no shirt, no hat, on my ten speed in 110* temp rising from sea level to 1800 feet ... I stopped sweating, my vision blackened from the periphery, and I didn't feel stable ... turned it around and headed back down, eventually getting a small amount of water and a ride from an old farmhand in an old pick up truck who had survived the Great Depression. Another time I was hauling along on my ten speed out in the boonies in 100+ temps when all my muscles "locked up"; my then girlfriend had put me on salt free food ... after that I made sure I consumed lots of salt in hot weather ... which makes life a lot cooler. Those were my young days ... I'm fixing to hydrate up and make sure I've eaten well ... sports type diet ... and do it again. This time, however, I can just practice nearby ... more ground cover, but still about as hot.

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:48 PM By JLS
What I really wanted to emphasize was that bit about the two Hail Mary prayers and the momentary relief of the clouds. The timing was impeccable in both cases. Yes, perhaps my intuition led me to coordinate my prayer, but the fact is that, regardless, the brief respite from direct sunlight made a substantial difference. No one can prove that prayer works, but many people bear perfect witness to this spiritual domain over the elements. I have other stories and have heard and read countless of them that are largely simple and not grandiose, and which bear a lot of credit to what we are taught about the dynamic connection between God and the small things in our tiny lives.

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:54 PM By Paula B.
Grisha, Your last comment at face value is entirely correct. 'The vast majority of American Catholics living their lives in our parishes day to day' -- do not bear any relationship to the Roman Catholic Church through the ages and into the reign of Pope Pius the XIIth. That is to say 1,935 years of its 1,976 year history. I'll give you a hint what I mean -- Vatican II changed all the sacraments, daily practices, and church doctine. In fact if you were to make a comparison of today's catholic parishes you might find that they are even more liberal than the Lutheran Church parishes in the 1950s. Oh how we have lost the catholic faith, morals, and sacraments. Pray for restoration of the faith. SSPX here I come!

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:52 PM By Fr. M.P.
Paula B, Vatican II did *not* change Church doctrine. We still have all seven sacraments. Certain individuals have lied about that, and it is called the spirit of Vatican II. Have you read and understood Vatican II documents?

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:53 PM By RR
Paula B.: Correct you are! Not only did they change the things you listed, they changed the TRUE MASS to a Protestantized New Mass which was made by liberal bishops, freemasons, and six Protestant ministers. Fr. M.P.: They didn't change the number of sacraments but they changed the form of the sacraments, thus giving grave doubt of their validity.

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:21 PM By Jimmimac
Are these people really under authority? Whose? How exercised? That, it seems to me, is the really important question. But blaming this thing on the Ecumenical Council is just ridiculous.

Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008 10:00 PM By JLS
Paula B., that's what you get when you envision everything in a line from liberal to conservative ... a polarized world. But that's just a construct useful to some extent for discussions. Just beware of actually believing it.

Posted Thursday, August 28, 2008 1:20 AM By Kirk J.
Aw yes, just another flavor of the sadly misguided (and always juvenile) 'moral highground' rhetoric that God is love, therefore human experience of "love" is a "gift from God to be shared without qualification." (I'm not quoting anybody I know of, but I'm sure I'm quoting someone.) By the way, it seems to me that using the argument "God is love" means you should capitalize Love, essentially deifying it, thereby moving it somewhere closer to the temple of Venus I imagine. But I digress... So the basic foundation of the argument is always the same and always simplistic, enshrined with a facade of "spirituality" -- and delivering a dangerously beguiling message of sexual and moral relativism the ultimate conclusion of which can never be much more than "If it feels good, do it." Between the surprisingly poor logic of which such viewpoints are typically comprised -- combined with content such as "Ordinary genital self-touch can be very important and can help children come to reverence their bodies, to know them.” -- this type of heresy is a few short steps from supporting, or for that matter promoting, sexual activity between children, between children and adults, between adults of the same sex (excuse me, it already does that), and given no roadblocks to such thinking, would in due time strive to replicate the promiscuity of the Roman Empire. I for one would like to maintain the current definition of being a Roman Catholic.

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