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Published: October 26, 2009
'Ex-Gay' Books Banned
In Public School Libraries
Editor:The following is a story that appeared October 22 on FoxNews
Visit most public school libraries and you'll find an array of books that address the subject of homosexuality. Many include sexually explicit content, and some even include graphic images.
But if you're looking for a book that refers to the possibility that homosexuality can be "reversed," a Chicago-based group says your best bet is the banned books list.
Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays (PFOX) says there's an entire community of people across the world who say that their sexual orientation changed from gay to straight. But they're not getting their message out, the group says, because libraries across the country refuse to carry literature that describes these experiences or any studies that support them.
So a book like My Genes Made Me Do It!: A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation — which argues that sexuality is shaped by a variety of factors, not just biological — can't get a spot on the school library shelf.
Neither can You Don't Have to Be Gay, which describes author Jeff Konrad's struggle to overcome his unwanted same-sex attractions.
But Baby Be-Bop, the coming-out story of a gay teen, which includes descriptions of his sexual encounters in bathroom stalls with men he never talks to, makes the stacks.
Ask why the "ex-gay" books aren't making the cut, and the answers range.
Some say the books simply haven't been reviewed by the proper institutions; others say the idea the books promote — that homosexuality is a treatable condition — can be psychologically damaging to homosexuals.
PFOX Executive Director Regina Griggs says the group just wants anyone struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions to know all of the options available to them — but she says most schools won't even accept "ex-gay" materials free of charge.
"We offered the same books to Montgomery County, Maryland, and Arlington and Fairfax Counties in Virginia. We e-mailed all publicly funded universities nationwide that have a GLBTQ center," Griggs told Foxnews.com.
"Our offer to donate ex-gay books and brochures, we were rejected by all."
Click here to see some of the banned books.
Click here for entire story
Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 5:12 AM By OneoftheSheep
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. We, as Christians, are the light of the world. Our views are rejected while the false views of the same sex union folks are exalted. Stand firm.
We can not surrender our public schools to a tiny minority of dissidents.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 7:32 AM By JOhn Zakharia
And we thought the institutions such as libraries are professional and tolerant. Just imagine if a church or a catholic school banned a former gay person from employment, it would be on cnn.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 7:43 AM By lurker
This sounds like heterophobic discrimination to me ...
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 9:04 AM By Laurette Elsberry
This article reminds me of something I read in pro-homosexual propaganda years ago. It was a tale of woe of how the poor sodomites are being denied their rights, and are being discriminated against. One of the statements was so ludicrous I never forgot it: "They burned all our books." In the context the author was speaking about, there was no "gay" movement, so there would have been no "gay" books. And if by chance someone had written one, and the author contends they were all burned, how would anyone know about it?..... Now the shoe is on the other foot and the sexual liberationists are taking over, and are trying to eliminate all vestige of sexual morality. Their cohorts in the public library and public school systems will see to it that the truth will be "burned".
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 9:31 AM By Thomas Edward Miles
THE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR CHANGES, HOWEVER, THE SEXUAL ORIENTATION DOES NOT! GET OVER IT, LET'S MOVE ON, THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND ONES SEXUAL ORIENATATION!
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 11:48 AM By Abeca Christian
Yes I know, that is why doctors who want to help these men and women, out of the homosexual attractions, with these immortal disorder are not in practice either because they are shunned and have been even threatened to lose their life if they expose the truths about homosexuality. Something is wrong with our country when we can't have choices for better living. Especially when someone freely wants and is seeking answers. There is nothing wrong with that.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 12:47 PM By Anne T.
This is one reason I no longer vote for funds for public libraries. We can buy our own books and lend them to or exchange them with our friends. I am not totally against public libraries, but if they do not have the funds to buy the trash, maybe they will stick to buying the necessary books for students, etc.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 12:53 PM By Anne T.
The other option is to keep asking for the good books at the library and check them out. If they don't stock them, vote down funds for their libraries.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 1:42 PM By Dan
"THE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR CHANGES, HOWEVER, THE SEXUAL ORIENTATION DOES NOT! GET OVER IT, LET'S MOVE ON, THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND ONES SEXUAL ORIENATATION! " TEM-- the provervbial Ostrich whose head is in the sand. Take Mark from PA and visit the NARTH website. I personally know of gays who have, by therapy and the power of God, changed their sexual orientation. The irony or ironies is that for so many gay activists like yourself the world does evolve around your sexual orientation.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 2:39 PM By MarkF
I can verify what this article says - they have all sorts of pro-homosexuality books and nothing from the other side. But it does not stop here. These libraries (Fairfax VA) have all kinds of books about how horrible the Church is - they have one book that lists all the "bad" popes and their "crimes" - but nothing that is either objective or good about the Church. It's the same for US history. They have books slamming the US but not much that praises us. What we're seeing with all of Obama's radical appointments is that the radicals have infiltrated all the non-profit organizations in the country, except the military (because they don't like to get hurt or sweat). They're in the schools, universities, media, seminaries, non-profits and "think tanks." They're in our parishes teaching our young. They're certainly in the bureaucracy of the bishops' conference. You won't find them in places where hard work or creativity is needed like business or new start up corporations. They ride at our expense. Now with their secular Messiah enthroned they're all looking for a government job - like on some central committee to poke into your company, school or life. Radicals are scolds, modern Puritan busy-bodies, jealous of what they can't have or can't do. The libraries are just the tip of the iceberg.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 6:39 PM By Abeca Christian
Yes indeed, any government/city run facility is infested with a lot of trash. Like MarkF has posted they do have a lot of anti christian garbage too, but hey put something that can be positive and helpful, then they just shun it. So like Anne T has posted we can buy our own books and even pass them out to those who may need them. What I just don't get, is why does the homosexual activists get so mad at self help books for homosexuals who are seeking help out of that attraction? Why get mad, it is a personal option, people should have the freedom to all resources, heck we have allowed their garbage infiltrate our secular world why not be fair and allow help too.
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 7:27 PM By simone_dubois
Lurker, what is heterophobic discrimination? Is that discrimination against heterophobes?
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Posted Monday, October 26, 2009 9:13 PM By cjo
WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD SEND THEIR KIDS TO A GOVERNMENT 'BRAIN WASHING' SCHOOL , AKA PUBLIC SCHOOL???
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:23 AM By Peter
No such thing as an "ex-homosexual". The attraction is innate. Perhaps the books you are referencing would be better accepted if they were sold as what they truly are - fiction.
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:49 AM By Abeca Christian
Peter speak for yourself, not for others. When I have spoken to ex-homosexuals, they would care to differ with your comments, it proofs that you are dead wrong. Where's there's a will, there's a way!
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:24 AM By Peter
Abeca Christian - Because it is a FALSE hope. The reality is that there is no "out" for the attraction. The only choice here is not to act on those attractions; or change faiths - that's a choice for sure. It is far better to seek help in accepting who one is; that's just common sense. There is nothing positive about conveying false hope.
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:15 AM By JLS
The only reference or source ever furnished by Peter is himself. Reminds one of the story of the devil tempting Eve. I wonder which one Peter imagines himself to be.
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:18 AM By JLS
TEMiles, you display no faith, so what makes you think you have the right answers? Like Peter, you have no resource but your own unbridled drives for reference. Doesn't it bother you that your intellect is second fiddle to your emotions?
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:01 PM By Peter
Experience is the greatest teacher JLS. I know you prefer hearsay, but I am a very good source, none-the-less.
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 3:51 PM By David Ames
Public libraries do not categorize books on Ptolemeic science as science books because such theories have been discredited for centuries. Yet the Catholic church continued teaching it until the late 1960's despite overwhelming physical evidence that the earth revolves around the sun because the Bible places the earth at the center of the universe. It is clear that Church teaching has been wrong before and it is wrong with ex gay therapy.
With this therapy there is a very small success rate. Most people who enter this treatment, like Michael Johnston who was a leader in the movement, return to homosexual behavior. A simple explanation is they simply "give in to temptation." But that is just a cop-out. One that has been used repeatedly when fallable men in positions of faith faulter. Jim Bakker is a good example.
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 7:23 PM By JLS
Peter, the greatest teacher is the Holy Spirit. Experience can include both natural and supernatural things. Those who see man or themselves as the ultimate state of being have to contend with powers that could be evil or good, as well as the material world of the senses. You can always try to climb to Heaven by means of your own intellect, but you won't succeed.
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 7:25 PM By JLS
David Ames, your high school knowledge of science is overwhelming. How do you know if the sun or the earth revolves around the other? Can you prove your claim?
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Posted Tuesday, October 27, 2009 7:49 PM By lurker
discrimination that is based on an irrational hatred of or fear of heterosexuality.
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Posted Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:12 AM By Abeca Christian
Peter you are ignoring the so many who can attest to what I am saying. I feel sorry for you because you only speak from your views not on what is truly happening out there.
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Posted Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:18 PM By Dan
"Public libraries do not categorize books on Ptolemeic science as science books because such theories have been discredited for centuries. Yet the Catholic church continued teaching it until the late 1960's despite overwhelming physical evidence that the earth revolves around the sun because the Bible places the earth at the center of the universe." WHAT????!!!?? 1960s???!!?? Your knowledge of Church and science is matched only by your knowledge or Reparative Therapy.
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Posted Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:27 PM By Sir Louie
Of course... the gay community wants to expand their population,,,,,, the best way is to get the liberals to ban the BOOK gay and lesbian practices is also part of the industry and they have their exclusive products in which the government look on it as revenue source.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:45 AM By Aaron
For those of you that were born heterosexual, I have two questions:
1) When did you DECIDE to be attracted to the opposite gender? 2) Consider for a moment if it would be possible for you to change your orientation to become attracted to your own gender? The answers are: 1) You DIDN'T decide to become heterosexual, you were born that way. 2) It is NOT POSSIBLE for you to change your sexual orientation to become same sex attracted. SO IT IS WITH HOMOSEXUALS. Peter, of course, is absolutely right. Take it from me and millions of other homosexuals. You can change the behavior, but you CANNOT change the orientation. JLS in his extraordinarily consistent ignorance quotes all kinds of things about which he knows nothing, and casts stones at thoughtful, honest people like Peter and Mark from PA whose comments are based on real life experience. JLS ignorance will never be resolved. He will remain ignorant and intolerant to his death, continue to comment on things about which he knows nothing and refute the truth about the human condition. So be it. JLS and others on this web are the reason that Tomas and I now attend the Anglican church and live strong, dedicated Christian lives.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:13 AM By Abeca Christian
People I wouldn't entertain Aarons questions. He thinks he knows everything about homosexuality and heterosexuality. I don't claim to know either, I just look at the facts from people I know. Aaron and Peter ignore the fact, yes people, fact that there are people who have turned away from the homosexual lifestyle, the one's that I have been in contact with, have said that they have been healed. They had a long and personal walk getting to the root of things and even finally understanding the truth of their disorder. Yes people it's a disorder tied in with sin and one have even said that not only was it a disorder it was also his willingness to embrace sinful behaviors due to numerous of personal life experiences. So if we're to be honest and look at Aaron's and Peter's reasons to what led them to the homosexual lifestyle, they would be two different reasons, complex and perhaps complicated if they refuse to be honest with themselves.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:58 AM By Anne T.
Aaron, that is nonsense. If most people read enough pornography, experiment in certain sexual behaviors, they are capable of almost anything. Many a person has started with heterosexual porn and ended up buying the other kind. They become jaded and want more and more excitement. Jeffrey Dahmer is a case in point.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:59 PM By Dai Yoshida
Aaron: You mean the same Anglican Church that is flying off the cliff as we speak?
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 5:11 PM By JLS
Once again, Aaron, in the obstinate heat of your perverse lust you refuse to consider what God says, which is no same sex activity.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 5:13 PM By JLS
No, lurker, "discrimination" is based on intellect and faith. God intends for us to discriminate between good and evil. The sooner you start, the better off you'll be.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 6:51 PM By RR
Aaron: Active homosexuality + the heretical Anglican Church does NOT = dedicated Christian lives. Christ condemned homosexuality. Your active homosexuality is of the devil, NOT CHRIST.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:07 PM By Grisha
Aaron: Question 1: I was seven years old and it hit me that the next door neighbor lady in the halter top and shorts was hot. Question #2: I assume it would be. Even as far back as the 1950's the Red Chinese and North Koreans developed crude behavior modification techniques which changed prisoners most basic beliefs about themselves, their family and their country. I would expect that now with electro shock, drugs etc. changing someone's sexual orientation, even a very hetro one like mine, would be possible.
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 8:57 PM By abqdad
As is typically the case, the hypocritical liberals are all for "freedom of expression" ONLY as long as you agree with them!
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Posted Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:31 PM By Anne T.
Abeca Christian you are right. Each person with a homosexual orientation is different. Some were molested and abused as children, or had parents who wanted a girl, etc., so they ended up totally confused. I should have included that in my last post to Aaron. With those we should be more compassionate. Others just experimented and got caught up in the behavior. No matter. it is unhealthy and unnatural to continue the behavior as we have said before as the practice is a misuse of bodily parts and the sexual function. What angers most people is that now many homosexuals have carried what they call "their rights" to such an extreme that some are willing to proselyse or seduce children by encouraging such behavior, or ask for "same-sex marriage" which is a total oxymoron. This has righfully angered people.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 1:55 AM By Aaron
RR: Get the facts straight: JESUS NEVER MENTIONED HOMOSEXUALITY IN ALL HIS TEACHINGS. Get a red letter Bible and see for yourself. Peter, Mark from PA and I have all said precisely the same thing: You can change the behavior, but you cannot change the orientation. The Ex Gay movement has been completely discredited as fraud. The founding members admitted it as fraud in news conferences some 6 months ago. One of the founders, a Lesbian, is in a lesbian relationship. At the news conference, the founders tearfully acknowledged that while they wanted desperately to change their orientation, it is impossible. Don't mess with what GOD made: HE makes some people hetero, some homo and some bi sexual. It has been thus throughout the history of mankind. I was an apparent hetero for the first 60 years of my life: married, 2 kids. But I was not being true to what God made me. Today, I am comfortable in my own skin as a homosexual; Tomas and I live in a 100% monogamous relationship. We don't do porn, we don't go to gay bars, we don't sleep around: we live very ordinary, productive Christian lives. THERE IS NOTHING EVIL ABOUT HOW WE LIVE. I completely understand that this collides with Catholic DOGMA; that is why we began attending the Anglican church-you chased us away!!!! JLS and others can give their saccharin platitudes and quote DOGMA, but sexual orientation is what it is: an unchangeable way that GOD made us. Just for the record, none of your truthfully responded to my two simple questions. 1) When did you DECIDE to become heterosexual? 2) How difficult would it be for you to give up heterosexuality to become a homosexual? Unless you were BORN with equal attractions for men/women (e.g., bisexual), the answer is: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CHANGE YOUR INBORN ORIENTATION. You can change the behavior: you cannot change the orientation.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 4:54 AM By Mark from PA
Thank you for sharing your witness, Aaron. I feel sad that you don't feel welcome in the Catholic Church. I am an active member of my parish but from reading here I realize that I would not be welcome in a Sedevacantist group or a Pius X group or a Pius V group. In truth, 10 years ago I don't know if I ever even heard of Sedevacantists. What is upsetting here to me is how people demonize gay people.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 6:43 AM By JLS
Grisha, once again your homospun pseudo-science rushes in where fools fear to tread: It is Catholic dogma that sin is a choice, that no one can be made to sin without their consent. No matter what drugs, electric shock, deception, terror is employed, it is always a choice whether to commit a sin. Read the OT about how God describes some as lusting after unnatural objects. He lays it out thoroughly through His prophets over the ages. It is clear. Once again, Grisha, shuck your strange religion which you call Catholic and emerse yourself in the real Catholic Church ... you have the choice to do so, despite the pressures from your gay family and friends.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:03 AM By Anne T.
The Lord Jesus Christ told the rich young man to keep the Commandments. The Commandment against adultery-- which is just a subhead since there are really more than ten--included all the moral laws, not ritual laws, in Leviticus against sodomy, incest, and fornication. Every Jew in the New Testament knew that. Every examination of conscience in approved Catholic prayerbooks tell you that. Some of you are looking for loopholes, and there aren't any. You are deceiving others to justify you own sins.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:13 AM By Anne T.
Also, for those who want to know the Church's true teaching on homosexual behavior put "Bishop Bruskewitz Explains Homosexuality" in your search engine. He tells it as it is. Also, Don Feder, a Jewish writer, has an excellent article on the true teachings of Judiasm about homosexual behavior. Both are excellent and factual reading.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:18 AM By Anne T.
If you read the articles I mentioned, make sure you read the WHOLE article, instead of taking things out of context to justify sin.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:41 AM By Aaron
RR: Get the facts straight: JESUS NEVER MENTIONED HOMOSEXUALITY IN ALL HIS TEACHINGS. Get a red letter Bible and see for yourself. Peter, Mark from PA and I have all said precisely the same thing: You can change the behavior, but you cannot change the orientation. The Ex Gay movement has been completely discredited as fraud. The founding members admitted it as fraud in news conferences some 6 months ago. One of the founders, a Lesbian, is in a lesbian relationship. At the news conference, the founders tearfully acknowledged that while they wanted desperately to change their orientation, it is impossible. Don't mess with what GOD made: HE makes some people hetero, some homo and some bi sexual. It has been thus throughout the history of mankind. I was an apparent hetero for the first 60 years of my life: married, 2 kids. But I was not being true to what God made me. Today, I am comfortable in my own skin as a homosexual; Tomas and I live in a 100% monogamous relationship. We don't do porn, we don't go to gay bars, we don't sleep around: we live very ordinary, productive Christian lives. THERE IS NOTHING EVIL ABOUT HOW WE LIVE. I completely understand that this collides with Catholic DOGMA; that is why we began attending the Anglican church-you chased us away!!!! JLS and others can give their saccharin platitudes and quote DOGMA, but sexual orientation is what it is: an unchangeable way that GOD made us. Just for the record, none of your truthfully responded to my two simple questions. 1) When did you DECIDE to become heterosexual? 2) How difficult would it be for you to give up heterosexuality to become a homosexual? Unless you were BORN with equal attractions for men/women (e.g., bisexual), the answer is: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CHANGE YOUR INBORN ORIENTATION. You can change the behavior: you cannot change the orientation.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:47 AM By Anne T.
Dennis Prager has written some excellent artilces too about why homosexual acts are considered sinful in Jewish thought.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 12:07 PM By Grisha
JLS_-Yes one is not culpable for a sinful act if there is coercion. Thus - I suspect most, if not all, moral theologians would say that the American troops who ratted out their fellow POW's after brainwashing during the Korean War weren't guilty in the eyes of God. Remember that we're still talking about orientation and being straight, gay or bi isn't a sin, though what you do with your sexuality may be. . Now about MY "strange religion." I belong to a parish in the Archdiocese of San Francisco and receive the sacraments from a priest with valid AND licit holy orders who is under an Archbishop who was appointed by his Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. I recite and believe the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed and the renewal of my baptismal promises. My religion is shared by about 1.5 billion people on Earth of every race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, ability and disability.Given that we have people who write in here who follow the SSPX and others who say the mass is not the mass and still others who tell us that the pope and his predecessors for as long as you and I have been alive, isn't really the pope, I believe it's not MY religion that's "Strange" here! (PS: I believe God also had a thing or two to say abput lusting after "natural objects.")
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 12:54 PM By MarkF
Aaron, you claim both that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality and also claim that the homosexual inclination was made by God. I can show that Jesus made at least a broad statement that covers all sexual sins (Mark 7). Can you show me where Jesus said that the homosexual inclination is created by God as you said?
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 1:16 PM By JonJ
Wow, JLS must have entered a contest to see how many logical fallicies he could commit within the shortest amount of time. "Catholic dogma tells us sin is choice, since dogma also tells us that homosexual acts are sins, therefore all homosexual acts are the result of choice." We have circular reasoning, begging the question, and apeal to authority all contained in a nice brief package. Good Job JLS! Tell ya what, lets lock you up with 315lb, 600lb bench presser "Bubba" in the California State pen, and see how many "sins" you choose to commit.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 1:18 PM By MarkF
Grisha, what exactly is your real view on all of this? I respect you as someone who is more interested in light than heat. How do you reconcile Christian truth with Christian compassion?
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 2:46 PM By Mark from PA
I went to Mass at noon today. The priest gave a very good short homily. It made me think of this discussion. In the gospel Christ was criticized for healing on the Sabbath. He asked the people that if their ox or other animal was in a pit wouldn't the person rescue them. Wouldn't they rescue their son if he fell in a pit? The people didn't know how to answer. They were more interested in following the law. Is the law more important than human beings? What Aaron says makes a lot of sense but what it comes down to is that it is not a sin to love someone. IT IS NOT A SIN TO LOVE SOMEONE. And Aaron, I think most Catholics would agree that there is nothing evil about how you live.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 3:12 PM By David Ames
Well JLS, very simply put, the sun is a massive star that has its own gravitational pull. And just like the moon is relative to the Earth, the smaller body is subject to the larger one's gravitational pull.
As for the 1960s admission, it is common knowledge in the SSPX.
And as for reparative therapy, in addition to knowing people who are successful in riding themselves of homosexual tendencies, you should also consult with people who were not. Then decide for yourself who is genuine about the experience and who is not.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 3:58 PM By JLS
Wrong, Grisha. They broke their oaths. You continue obstinately to replace sin, confession, turning from sin, absolution by the cheaper and ineffective route of excuse and rationalization. Grisha, your religion is shared by about five billion people on the earth. Catholicism is different, in that it recognizes and respects and adheres to the Commandments and revelations of God as taught infallibly by His Church.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 4:00 PM By JLS
God has carefully and thoroughly defined sin. It is nice to know the why of it, but the fact is that it is critical to know how to recognize and avoid it, and the own up to it asap and then do the Sacrament of Reconciliation ... to the depths of one's soul, and not just pretend and make the appearance of doing it.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 5:56 PM By JLS
JohJ, perhaps ol' Big Bubba, the enema specialist scares you, but as for me "Give me liberty or give me death" (Patrick Henry). You seem to dwell on some fantasy of being raped, JonJ; can you reveal your secret dreams more concretely to the world? No doubt you'd love to do so. There is no circular reasoning in what you quoted of my post: Didn't I suggest once that you take a refresher course in reading? Look: Catholic dogma says sin is a choice, homosexual acts are sin; therefore, homosexual acts are a choice. To argue against this, JonJ, requires you to say that Catholic dogma proclaims confusion. And this is exactly what you obstinately claim, that God did not know what He was doing when He issued the Commandments, and guaranteed the Church dogma against error. No one can be forced to commit a sin. Everyone is free to refuse to commit a sin. Homosexual acts are sins; therefore, no one has any justification to commit a homosexual act. JonJ, it only appears circular reasoning to you because the confusion stirred up in your mind by the truth makes you dizzy.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 6:03 PM By JLS
David Ames, Einsteins's theory of relativity informs us that we do not know where the center of the universe is; the only claims that have been made are the earth and the sun. God says it is the earth; I'll go with what God says. David, there is no dogmatic teaching of the Church as to the center of the univers; however, the traditional teaching is that it is the earth, possibly even Jerusalem. Now, on the topic of reparative therapy: It solves the problem of many people, which is its purpose and its success. Others who choose to keep to their perverse ways cannot blame something else for their choice. Every soul is free to choose between evil and good. Homosexual activity is evil, and if you choose it then you choose eternal death. You sound as though homosexuals have a special place in human nature; no, they do not, but are condemned for their vanity, no matter how mockingly they try to disguise it.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 6:54 PM By Grisha
JLS - Got the two numbers on the wrong side of the decimil place.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 6:57 PM By Grisha
Mark F: Thank you. I'll get back to you in the AM when my head is a bit clearer.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 10:02 PM By MarkF
Grisha, You brought up the idea of the moral state of POW's who broke down under interrogation. It's a great example, because in some way it's a good analogy for all of our lives, just writ large. What you're talking about is temptation and freedom of will. Now we've had this discussion on here before about how to apply what the catechism says about when a wrong act becomes a sin, and I don't see a need to rehash that. Some will say that any wrong act is a sin, and other will say that almost nothing is a sin because we're human and are tempted so much. Leaving that aside, from what I've read now, the accounts that the POWS in Korea and China were somehow totally transformed was strongly overstated. Some might have switched political allegiances and began to side with the Chinese. A similar thing happened to Patty Heart. This is called the Stockholm Syndrome now. I'm reading a lot about cults right now and how good people are drawn into these things. They are manipulated all along but will all swear that they freely chose to be in the cult. So where does sexual orientation fall in this? Some people like myself and many other have formed a homosexual orientation through psychological dynamics early on. In that sense it comes from within. However the presence of open gay culture around certainly takes those urges and hardens and confirms them. And sexual experiences do the same too. I've also met some guys who come to homosexuality later, often when they're under stress. It may be linked to feelings about their own masculinity. I've seen others who have grown out of homosexuality. Maybe it does not totally go away, but the attraction wanes. I'm very dubious of quick fixes like reparative therapy, because homosexuality can be so tricky. It's so linked with self-hatred that often the motivation is to lessen that. These are the people who fail and who hit rock bottom when they fail.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 10:51 PM By Aaron
RR: Get the facts straight: JESUS NEVER MENTIONED HOMOSEXUALITY IN ALL HIS TEACHINGS. Get a red letter Bible and see for yourself. Peter, Mark from PA and I have all said precisely the same thing: You can change the behavior, but you cannot change the orientation. The Ex Gay movement has been completely discredited as fraud. The founding members admitted it as fraud in news conferences some 6 months ago. One of the founders, a Lesbian, is in a lesbian relationship. At the news conference, the founders tearfully acknowledged that while they wanted desperately to change their orientation, it is impossible. Don't mess with what GOD made: HE makes some people hetero, some homo and some bi sexual. It has been thus throughout the history of mankind. I was an apparent hetero for the first 60 years of my life: married, 2 kids. But I was not being true to what God made me. Today, I am comfortable in my own skin as a homosexual; Tomas and I live in a 100% monogamous relationship. We don't do porn, we don't go to gay bars, we don't sleep around: we live very ordinary, productive Christian lives. THERE IS NOTHING EVIL ABOUT HOW WE LIVE. I completely understand that this collides with Catholic DOGMA; that is why we began attending the Anglican church-you chased us away!!!! JLS and others can give their saccharin platitudes and quote DOGMA, but sexual orientation is what it is: an unchangeable way that GOD made us. Just for the record, none of your truthfully responded to my two simple questions. 1) When did you DECIDE to become heterosexual? 2) How difficult would it be for you to give up heterosexuality to become a homosexual? Unless you were BORN with equal attractions for men/women (e.g., bisexual), the answer is: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CHANGE YOUR INBORN ORIENTATION. You can change the behavior: you cannot change the orientation.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:12 PM By Abeca Christian
Folks here we go again..... we can't teach an old dog a new trick, these homosexuals keep trapping us and we keep falling into their tricks again.
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Posted Friday, October 30, 2009 11:26 PM By Abeca Christian
Aaron now who made ye a bible scholar now? Why are you yelling at me friend RR like that? I think that it is ye that needs to get it, buddy old chum. Capise!
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 5:47 AM By Mark from PA
I think most people realize that if a man is raped by another man in prison this does not make him a homomsexual. In fact, it doesn't actually make the man that raped him a homosexual either. We are talking about an act here not an orientation.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 6:16 AM By Linda3
They are talked and walked and seduced into homosexuality.
Why would they be allowed to walk away from homosexuality..
If you are ashamed of your child being homosexual, you
allow homosexuality to pull more people into homosexuality,
partially by telling them they are "Born that Way" second
by seducing them..
Come out from under the bushel basked and let the light sine, on how our kids are being pulled into homosexual...
If you do nothing, you are contributing to the cause of homosexuality, and can't home for your childs healing..
May God give you courage to help your child an others.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 8:35 AM By Grisha
Mark F.: Thank you for asking my opinion. I believe as a matter of faith that most varieties of sexual behavior are sins. Because we are all sinners, it's not surprising that at some point in our lives; maybe most of us commit sexual sins along with others. We should confess these sins, sometimes we do, and sometimes we don't. I have to ask myself, “What is the relative hierarchy of sin,” The Venial / Mortal distinction doesn't help a lot. However, I believe that for whatever my friend Mary and her partner do in the privacy of their bedroom pales by comparison to that of the gang rape of a 15 year old girl in the city my daughter teaches in. Surely God makes a distinction in severity. Why all of this obsession with gays? The fundamentalist approach, adopted by some Catholics here, seems to be that, in a relationship, if you find out a person's gay, you are supposed to ignore the rest of their humanity and focus on that. How many times has someone written here that whatever good deeds any “active” gay person might do, they don’t offset their sex acts while a married couple who use birth control, which isn't so obvious, get a free pass and are treated ”normally” ? As for the balance between truth and compassion, if one of my liberal SF friends ask what I believe about the teachings of my Church on birth control, homosexual acts, masturbation etc. I'll share it with them. Ditto for some of my right-wing relatives in Fresno on preferential option for the poor, just war or my Archbishop’s stance on immigration policy. I just won't center my view of them and our relationship around these matters. Neither God nor the Church made me the Grand Inquisitor. The best, and perhaps only thing I can do is share with others my faith in Him and what the Roman Catholic Church has done for me, sinner though I am.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 11:13 AM By Anne T.
Aaron, at least you have the honesty to not call yourself a devout Catholic when you do not believe in the Church teachings. I will give you credit for that one.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 11:39 AM By A
I am not only a convert, Aaron, but also a revert. For awhile I had trouble with some dogmas and teachings of the Church, so in all honesty I left. I could not pretend to believe what I did not. I had to be honest with myself, and no one "chased" me away. I did not blame other faithful Catholics for chasing me away. Later I came back because I had more understanding and really began to believe and understand Church teaching.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 12:01 PM By Anne T.
In fact, Aaron, I know at least some of those faithful Catholics were praying for me. Perhaps also some of my ancestors. I am praying for your understanding and healing too.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 12:09 PM By Anne T.
Aaron, I also made an idol of a young man once. God took him away from me to teach me a lesson, Aaron. It is this "I am the Lord your God, you shall not have any gods before Me." You are making an idol of Tomas.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:29 PM By RR
Abeca Christian: Thanks for ye support! All we can do is pray for all homosexuals that they see what they are doing is mortally sinful. I just love how the active homosexuals love to say they left the Church because of people like JLS and others on this website. No, they left because they made their decision to leave the Church because they chose to continue in their lustful sins. They didn't want to obey the Church and God's laws, so they went and found a heretical church that would accept their sexual sins. "Capise!"
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:57 PM By Mark from PA
Grisha, I can't believe that a 15 year old girl would be raped in a school and that the kids just watched and did not assist her. What a horror. It is so hard to believe this. It is so heartbreaking. I know that some of the people here make fun of me but I tell you that I am grateful to God for making me as I am because I pretty much have absolutely no compehension of how someone could do this to another human being. It makes me sick that such depravity exists in the world. Your post of 8:35 AM is very thought provoking, Grisha.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 5:42 PM By JLS
Aaron, you seem to be having a hissy fit. You will have to calm down and take a course in reading comprehension from a patient elementary level teacher. Obviously it was at that time in your life when you began to misinterpret reality, and demand that whatever you make up is true.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 9:03 PM By JonJ
Actually, JLS, no challenge to dogma is required to question your skewed reasoning. Your logic is quite twisted when you attempt to prove that all homosexual acts are due to choice by citing dogma that states homosexual acts are sins and all sins are the consequence of choice. In fact, CHOICE is a necessary element before an act may be considered a sin. Compromise choice, and the act may not necessarily be a sin. It takes no imagination to create coersive scenarios in which a homosexual act may not be sin (e.g. terrorist demands you perform a homosexual act or he will detonate a nuclear bomb, which you know to be real, underneath manhattan). Nor do I believe that morality dictates that you force Bubba to kill you, after he's more than proved he can take what he wants (though I also believe that self defense would clearly justify ambushing Bubba unwares and even killing him, to protect oneself from abuse). You, however, engage in ridiculous posturing when you proclaim that a homosexual act is a sin, no matter the coercive force brought against someone.To demonstate the patent silliness of your argument lets apply it to killing. Dogma states that killing another is sin. Dogma also states that all sin must be the consequence of choice. Therefore, any act of killing another much be the result of choice. Consequently, killing another is always sin, no matter the coercive force applied against you. Deducing a constituent element from a premise is clear circular reasonsing.
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Posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 9:28 PM By JonJ
I don't know much about reparative therapy, but I do know that they consider people who simply suppress homosexual urges as "cured" which inlfates their success rate. Someone who simply suppresses their urges, while living in conformity with Catholic faith, is hardly "repaired".
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Posted Sunday, November 01, 2009 4:47 AM By Anne T.
Perhaps I should explain my last post. The young man had asked me to marry him. I was willing, at the time, to switch religions in order to marry him. A family member told me what I was doing was wrong. The young man and I got into a discussion of religion which ended in an argument, and because of that we broke up, luckily before we got too deeply involved. Although I was heartbroken, I realized later that one does not put anyone or anything before God. It is a breakage of the First Commandment.
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Posted Sunday, November 01, 2009 11:53 AM By MarkF
Grisha, I agree with what you said. Sin is a force in our lives and we struggle with it, sometime with more success, sometimes with less success. I do think that there is a cultural feeling that homosexuality is worse than infidelity but at least officially, they Church sees them both as wrong. For sure there is hypocrisy on this issue in practice. But lets set that aside because there is something else going on. The modern homosexual movement does not want compassion, it wants the promotion and normalization of homosexuality. They want to change the meaning of marriage, of family, even of the concepts of male and female. Homosexual behavior in an individual is a sin, not so unlike the sins that all of us commit. The organized homosexual movement is a society changing, destructive, perhaps even demonic force. And the root cause of all of this is the breakdown of the family. I really don't think we'd have so much of this if the family and the Church were stronger. Notice how it all increases after Vatican II and the widespread rejection of Humanae Vitae? But the bitterness that often comes into the debate is certainly poisonous. I really don't know how to handle it. Some gay people are just fanatics and can't stop with just their own freedom but are compelled to change the family, the Church, the world in order to feel good about themselves. Do you see any problem is being so compassionate to homosexuality that it grows from being a minority to being something that is worshiped and made into something normal and healthy? I'm not sure how much you know of what is thought and said inside of radical gay circles, but it is downright evil...hatred of anything good, decent, advocating incest, sex with kids, destruction of the Church. There's plenty to be scared of.
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 6:41 AM By Peter
You people are nuts.
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 7:12 AM By JLS
JonJ, suppression of concupiscense is not to be dismissed from the arsenal for following Jesus. I have to continually suppress many urges, some of which are immoral and some of which are illegal and some of which are both ... Now, in this "suppression" I include repression, oppression, impression, expression, ultipression, megapression, and any other form of pression or pressure that it takes to discipline my body, as St Paul says we need to do. Jesus tells us constantly, and if you do not know this, then you should ... Jesus tells us to "deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Him": What, JonJ, don't you get about it?
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 7:50 AM By Grisha
Mark Fm PA: My daughter's students are praying for her and Campus Ministry and the Human Rights Club are collecting funds for her medical care and especially the long term psychotherapy she'll need. Some of her students went to middle school with the victims as well as some of the suspects who are in custody. A common comment is "He was so.. like .. normal , in middle school. What happened?"
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 9:26 AM By Grisha
Mark - While every movement for social change has it's extremists, my personal experience with gay activists, Including Julie Dorf who founded the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLHRC) has been that in many, perhaps most cases they love their family of origin as well as their partners and kids. What they want is, to put it bluntly, for a diminishing but influential minority in society to "Get you hand out of my pocket and foot off my neck." As for ".being so compassionate to homosexuality that it grows from being a minority to being something that is worshiped and made into something normal and healthy? " God in his infinite wisdom seems to be making sure that Heterosexuals are, over time and place always in the overwhelming majority. As for "healthy" I've seen loving and healthy relationships AND dysfunctional screwed up ones between both straight and gay couples. Although some Church officials, may have made terribly uncharitable statements in the heat of the Culture Wars, my gay - and gay activist friends seem to appreciate what my faith does or me. One story in particular comes to mind. In 2004 my daughter's ;classmate Samantha, who was the Russia specialist for IGLHRC and I were in St. Petersburg and she found a mass for us to go to (NO in Latin w/ the homely in Russian.) when she came to pick me up she saw that I was wearing "Business Casual." She was in a long skirt w/ sleeves and a hat like my mother would have worn to mass in the '50's. "Grisha,"she said "That may be OK at your parish in San Francisco, but this is a more conservative country. I think you ought to put on your suit." She was right. Later we went out with two of the leaders of the gay movement in Russia and she raved about Fathers homily. Mark - I'd love to know which gay organizations your thinking of that are so radical to include "hatred of anything good, decent, advocating incest, sex with kids, destruction of the Church." I'm familiar with the Human Rights Campaign, Equality California, IGLHRC and GLADD and they don't seem to take these positions. Other than a fringe nutcase or two, who are you thinking of? Best regards, Grisha
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 4:11 PM By Mark from PA
That is good they are doing something Grisha but it is still hard to believe the horror of it all.
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 4:14 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, I was reading some discussions with John Heard and read some of your comments. Many of them were very good. I saw a different side of you and a different tone. I actually agreed with a lot of what you had to say there.
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 8:29 PM By JLS
Peter, that is essentially what Jesus says, via St Paul, the world calls His followers. Thanks for the compliment. The Cross is a "sign of contradiction". The ways of the world are not the ways of God; I'm happy that you have arrived at the place where you see this. There is hope yet, Peter.
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 8:34 PM By JLS
Some of the most heinous crimes are committed in broad daylight with many witnesses who do nothing to intervene. Abortion is one of these, murder/rape is another, homosexual events are yet another, and topping the list is the worship of idols including ideas as much as images.
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 9:10 PM By JLS
Grisha, your post sounds like you all did the catwalk thing at a luncheon. Who won the fashion prize?
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Posted Monday, November 02, 2009 9:23 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, the obsession with homosexuals did not start until the group crossed the line and asked people to okay their relationships with marriage. That is when all hell broke loose. That and the adoption of children by these couples when there are heterosexual families looking for children and organizations that can take care of homeless children where they are watched and will not be raped if these organizations are forced to have strict rules about non-relative adults working alone with children.
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Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:39 AM By Grisha
Anne T: I agree that the marriage issue set off much of the anti-gay anger, However, back circa 1990 when a very modest domestic partner law was proposed in SF the a Archdiocese led the opposition to it. In Washington state now, their Bishop's Conference is backing a repeal of the Civil Union law. My understanding is that their are a not of straight married couples standing in line to adopt. Finally, lots of lesbians are and will continue to have children by artificial insemination. From what I can see, the church is not encouraging those who are Catholic to have ther children baptized or educated in our schools. A darned shame!
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Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:13 AM By Grisha
JLS "Grisha, your post sounds like you all did the catwalk thing at a luncheon. Who won the fashion prize?" Do mean at Our lady of Lourdes? The people at the mass didn't appear affluent. My well worn six year old travel suit fit in with the men. My khaki's and polo shirt would have been out of place. Samantha's outfit was clearly western. It was great. It was Today's New Mass bit in Latin. As is the custom in Eastern European Catholic churches, rather than line up for communion or take turns kneeling at the rail we knelt along the center aisle. Communion was on the tongue only with an acolyte holding the paten under you chin. Oh, the fashion show? Clearly the winners were the two Missionary Sic Sisters of Charity, on an African and another an Indian in their white with blue trim sari type habits.
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Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 10:15 PM By MarkF
Grisha,
Gay activists are two faced. They say one thing in public and another in private. I spent thirty years in this lifestyle and know it from the inside out. There's an unwritten rule that says that we don't wash our dirty laundry in public. You won't hear gay activists talk about how dangerous homosexual behavior is, except as a cudgel to beat up straight society by placing the blame there. You won't hear them talk about how many gay men were sexually abused as kids, and whose deepest sexual wishes are to recreate these experiences. You won't hear them talk about bath houses or cruising in bathrooms. But you also don't have to scratch too far to find sentiments supporting this. They also know enough to ask for just enough that they think the public will grant them and to hide the rest. Would gay activists have asked for same-sex "marriage" ten years ago? If a same-sex couple wants to call themselves married and have some sort of religious service, that's fine. But to give it the full sanction of the government and extend benefits to them that are denied to friends or to a brother and sister, that is not an equal right, it is a special right. The quest for homosexual "marriage" is not about the tiny number of couples who will avail of it. It is a feel-good attempt by gay people and a power grab for the activists. You cannot have same-sex "marriage" without orphan kids being forced into such homes, even over a waiting couple of a man and a woman. This violates the rights of the child to have parents. To protect children is not to have the "foot on the neck" of gay people. If your friend's sentiment was true, couldn't we say that society is trampling the rights of people who want to have a polygamous question? Or an adult incestuous couple?
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Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:14 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, if lesbians do not believe in the teachings of the Church on sexuality, including the taboo against artificial insemination, why would they want to have their children baptized in the first place? That would seem very hypocritical. It would only confuse the children because the Church teaches one thing, and their mother and others teach them the opposite. Children soon see through such hypocrisy. Baptism saves no one by itself.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:36 AM By Peter
Interesting opinion MarkF. Now do you have anything truthful to say to balance it out?
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:23 AM By Grisha
Mark F: Again - Yours and mine personal experience with both gay people in general and gay activists in particular are different. Maybe it's because most of my gay friends are women and well... truth be told... My wife and I've always lived a pretty boring lifestyle and like attracts like. I honestly believe that if their had not originally been such vehement opposition to Domestic partnerships back in the '90', gay marriage wouldn't have gained the traction it has. There are more children in need of adoption than qualified straight couples available to adopt. My sense of the gay parents I know, with kids both adopted and from insemination is they try to be the best parents they can. As for their kids being singled out for harassment for being different, that's why schools and others have the programs objected to so strongly by o some of our fellow posters here. I'd love to know if i any of the "Bathhouse and Bar" crowd you used to run with never adopted or tried to adopt. Again, I'd like to hear which gay rights groups or significant gay leaders have argued for the destruction of family and Church as you describe. --Oh Anne T: A lesbian couple having their children baptized are in no different position than a straight married couple who don't believe in the Church's teaching on contraception or, do believe but don't follow it.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:19 AM By Grisha
Mark F: Oh - If you want to read stuff by LGBT community leaders who take a reasonable pro-family position Google Kate Kendall (National Center for Lesbian Rights) and especially Chai Feldblum a professor in New York
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:27 PM By MarkF
Grisha, when you talk about domestic partnerships arrangements, you're getting closer to the heart of the matter - the breakdown of the family and of marriage. That's the main symptom. The cause is society's rejection of God. Domestic partnerships are just an attempt to have a no-strings attached marriage, one that you can opt out of whenever you feel. The victims are first the kids, but eventually the whole society. This is all just a symptom of life in rejection of God. Homosexuality only comes into play as a large factor once this has already happened. I suspect that even straight people can see this - that their own license to a life free of God is tied together with a homosexual's license to do the same.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:31 PM By Peter
MarkF - You sharing a brain with JLS?
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:10 PM By Grisha
Mark F: As someone who has been married (To the same woman) for 40 years, let me suggest that ALL American marriages are "no strings" or "minimal strings" attached. I understand dissolving a domestic partnership is no easier or harder than a divorce and if one is a Catholic, an Annulment is a little more involved and expensive, but one only needs to do it if planning to re-marry. I'm the child of a divorce and was hurt by it. As a result, I really would like to see the 50% US divorce rate (I don't know what it is for Catholics) lowered. I just don't see how not having domestic partnerships or even gay marriages are going to contribute to that.
We're Catholics, but do we want to have our theology of "Whom God has joined together let know man put asunder." become the law of the land for us as well as Methodists, Muslims and Jews et. al.? Turning family matters over to the denominations won't work. It hasn't in Israel where 95%+ of the population belongs to only two religions. A theocracy, even a Catholic theocracy, isn't the answer to the ills which plague U.S. families. As for your original question about Christian truth vs. Christian compassion," Google "Shirley Tan." She is a Catholic woman in a domestic partnership with two children. After 20 years here the I.C.E. (The old "INS") wants to deport her. Were she in a heterosexual marriage, it wouldn't be an issue. Check it out and then tell me whether she ought to be permanently separated from her family or whether the Uniting American Families Act, which would resolve her situation, ought to be passed.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:02 PM By Anne T.
Mark F, you are exactly right in your post of Wednesday the 4th at 12:27.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:03 PM By JLS
Grisha, your reply shows that you are caught up in a fashion catwalk, like a fixation.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:10 PM By JLS
Peter, as I've explained and as you've scratched your head trying to grasp ... The faithful share the mind of Christ. You, Peter, are dealing with Christ, but in your lack of faith you cannot come to grips that God is greater than your imagination or your mind. You cannot share in the mind of Christ without paying your dues, which means bowing your knee before Christ and confessing Him with your lips.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:51 PM By Grisha
JLS - All I said was, essentially, "You can pray in business casual. You just can't pray in business casual at Our Lady of Lourdes." At least not the one in St. Petersburg, Russia.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:49 PM By JLS
Grisha, have you ever looked into the nature of language and how it is used? Do you think you are aware of everything you say? If not, then do you think that there are people who are more aware of what you say than you yourself?
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:53 PM By MarkF
Grisha, you make my point for me. You talk about how hard it would be to change the US back to a society were divorce laws were strict. They were strict almost to the point of being in line with Catholic teaching. These laws were backed up by all the Christian groups in the US. There was a consensus of religion and solid law. Now that's all changed. Many Protestants changed the historic teaching of Christianity about marriage, and soon the law was changed to reflect that. I totally agree with you. I cannot imagine what would happen if we changed divorce laws to make it tougher to divorce, except that I know that many people would not get married. It's almost impossible to get the tooth paste back in the tube, and that's what we're living with. Now some want to take this process further with same-sex marriage. All sorts of things will unwind if this becomes law, and it will then be next to impossible to change. As far as this woman, my guess (without reading her story) is that she could be able to stay on her own merits but wishes to play the homosexual martyr card. This is what Aaron does on here at least. Given the record we have in this country with unintended consequences after changing marriage laws, can you honestly say that we need MORE of this and not less?
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 6:56 AM By Peter
JLS - I guess it just boils down not so much to my acceptance of God being a better thinker or imaginer per se – for me that’s a given. But if you and other posters to this web-site are to serve as shining examples of true "Christ-thought", I want no part of it. Even with all of its flaws, I would still choose to entertain the illusion of individuality and a certain connection to the secular world over a wholly unreal and misinformed group-think.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:59 AM By Grisha
Mark F - True, Churches change both theology and pastoral practice with the times. We, and the Orthodox Jews among others are rightfully slow and conservative as we do so. Archbishop Sheehan has suggested, however, that complete failure to do so will leave us with the same influence on society as the Amish. With all due respect to those wonderful people of faith, that has never been our Catholic tradition. As for Shirley Tan and Aaron and Tomas, I have to say you are incorrect in assuming they could permanently live in the US without the passage of the Uniting American Families Act (H.R. 1024, S. 424) which the pro-immigration USCCB opposes. I'm currently in the process of completing an affidavit on discrimination against homosexuals in Russia for a Russian lesbian who is totally out of options other than asylum. If you look at I sincerely ask that you read about the Shirley Tan case. No one in their right mind would go through what she did including being Handcuffed in front of her children for PR purposes. She really is a simple Filipina housewife and mother. It is a genuine example of where , in my opinion Christian compassion must override theology. She was weeks away from deportation, which was stayed only by a private bill by Diane Feinstein. In opposing H.R. 1024 & S. 424 her Church essentally turned their back not only on her but her catholic School student children. Yes, some undocumented immigrants can take advantage of various sections of the immigration statues to stay here, however it's never guaranteed and certainly not permanently even with a competent immigration attorney.
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