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“A question of people's safety"

Prop 8 backers don’t want court proceedings televised in federal challenge to California’s ban on same-sex marriages


San Francisco, Jan 6, 2010 / (CNA) -- A judge’s Jan. 6 decision to allow the broadcast of federal court hearings on the constitutionality of California’s Proposition 8 could lead to further harassment and intimidation of Prop. 8 supporters by radical homosexual activists, critics say.

U.S. District Court Judge Vaughn R. Walker, chief judge for the Northern District of California, had proposed a last-minute revision to court rules that would allow television coverage of the trial, the Washington Times reports.

A document posted on the court's website states that people may comment on the decision to open the courtroom to TV cameras until today. Says the court’s website: “All comments and suggestions regarding the content of the revised rule (which would allow televised coverage) should be sent as soon as convenient and, in any event, no later than January 8, 2010 to: Hon. Phyllis Hamilton, Chair of the Rules Committee, United States Courthouse, 1301 Clay Street, Oakland, CA 94612; Hon. Vaughn Walker, Chief Judge, United States Courthouse, 450 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94102.”

Speaking at a hearing on the matter on Wednesday, Judge Vaughn said the case deals with important issues and should be allowed to be broadcast over YouTube.

YouTube is owned by Google Inc., the Mountain View, California-based Internet giant that opposed the measure. The San Francisco Chronicle’s blog “The Tech Chronicles” reports that company founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page donated at least $140,000 to Prop. 8 opponents.

Attorneys for backers of Prop. 8 have argued that media coverage would expose their witnesses to further intimidation.

Backers of the ballot measure were targeted for harassment after the measure passed in November 2008 by 52 to 48 percent. With the aid of Internet websites that combined maps and donor lists, some donors received threatening e-mails, letters and phone calls. Churches and businesses were targeted by protesters, boycotts and vandals.

According to the Washington Times, Brian Brown, executive director of the Prop. 8 backer National Organization for Marriage, said he is worried about the safety of witnesses, including campaign contributors, staff and volunteers.

"The question is really whether Judge Walker can put people on the stand where they can be threatened," Brown commented. "It's a question of people's safety."

The court usually bans television, radio and photography. On Dec. 17, the Judicial Council of the Ninth Circuit announced that it approved the “limited use of cameras” on an experimental basis.

Rick Jacobs, chairman of the homosexual “marriage” advocacy group the Courage Campaign, told the Washington Times that the case presents issues that are “very important to the public” and will affect millions of people. "By televising the trial, the public will be able to see for themselves the arguments and evidence presented by both sides, and will therefore have more confidence in the outcome of the trial," he said.

The lawsuit in question was filed in June by two homosexual couples who argue that Prop. 8 violates the U.S. Constitution.

Prop. 8 had surmounted several other legal challenges in what its backers have charged to be frivolous lawsuits.

The trial is scheduled to begin on Monday, Jan. 11.


READER COMMENTS

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 3:52 AM By Abeca Christian
Yes it will bring fourth more harassment and abuse from those who support same sex marriage. We will see more hatred coming from the opponent.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 7:13 AM By David
An insensitive, hardened heart, over-confidence and world-weary smugness keep people from experiencing the true joy and love found in Jesus Christ

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 7:37 AM By MARY K.
Showing a broadcast of court hearings becomes a "stage" for speakers/witnesses on both sides of the issue. One example would be the O J Simpson trial. And what happened after the verdict in the trial??? San Francisco does not need the publicity of the media hype. Let the facts be decided on their own merit without public frenzy.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 8:02 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
Sorry to rain on the parade of all the Proposition 8 supporters, but if you want to testify in court on such a matter of public policy as marriage equality for Gay couples, you had better be prepared to come out of the closet. It's called ACCOUNTABILITY.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 8:20 AM By everythingukod
Even if the gays and its allied immoral people win this case. Its still the same evil, unsanitary sex.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 8:41 AM By OneoftheSheep
Seems to be a good time to turn the hate crimes legislation into reality for these ungentle citizens, the Anti-8's. Any anti-8 individual or group who commits a crime or harasses the Yes on 8'ers should be subject to the full force of the hate crimes law. Let them taste what true bigotry is all about. Time to turn the tables on the haters of decency.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 8:42 AM By Tom Byrne
Chuck: Accountability to whom and for what? Don't we have secret ballot in this country for a reason? Ten years ago people could condemn the vicious vice called homosexual conduct without fear of retaliation against their person, property, family or job. In certain parts of the country (like the Bay Area) that is no longer true. Don't give me any stupid argument from "symmetry". Evil has no rights. God Almighty leveled two cities of sodomites on His own initiative and with no human involvement, and Lot's sons-in-law (clearly "supporters of gay rights") perished in the flames.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 10:01 AM By Life Lady
Thank you Chuck for making the point that people's safety is at issue. Your post reassures me that if I stand for the right to have marriage deemed between one man and one woman, you and your kind will be there with blackjacks to put me in my place. Your hatred for us heteros ("breeders", as you all like to call us) truly unmasks your own hatret for heterosexual persons. How about taking care of your own accountability and we will take care of ours. Your threats fall on your own head with your own words.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 10:12 AM By JLS
Criminal conspiracy to harrass can mount to felony level, and bring lots of lawsuits. If the google TV cameras present biased views favoring harrassment, then guess what it'll cost google? The court itself is not completely out of the criminal/civil justice loop either. Sometimes the citizenry has to actually take action and suffer the consequences of evil, such as judicial and homosexual acts of violence and defamation. Read the Constitution and note that treason is the act of using force to subvert the Constitution ... any judge, legislator or executive who uses force to oppose the Constitution is subject to federal treason charges, which can be a capital offense. So, Chuck A., consider the consequences that are not only further loss of soul in homosexuality but the federal pen for those who choose to violate the civil rights of normal people who are not slavering over the thoughts and images of their next sodomic encounter.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 10:19 AM By Ski Ven
Is Maguire worried about this kind of bullying?

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 10:24 AM By Life Lady
Thank you Chuck for making the point that people's safety is at issue. Your post reassures me that if I stand for the right to have marriage deemed between one man and one woman, you and your kind will be there with blackjacks to put me in my place. Your hatred for us heteros ("breeders", as you all like to call us) truly unmasks your own hatret for heterosexual persons. How about taking care of your own accountability and we will take care of ours. Your threats fall on your own head with your own words.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 11:36 AM By WOODY GUIDRY
FEAR is what keeps some of the strayed sheep from returning to the fold. No matter the obstacle, God always wins-so we DO what we can and ask Him to complete that which we feel are lost causes. We need to keep our hearts open and non-judgmental-and a safe shelter for the little sheep who have lost their way.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 11:48 AM By Nick
Chuck, it is sad that anyone is 'in the closet.' A good confessor can help live a life accountable to God. What you allude to is retribution.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 11:49 AM By Isabella
In response to Chuck, The problem is that Prop 8 supporters are the ones in danger by the pro homosexual marriage radicals. You don't see Prop 8 supporters sending death threats and vandalizing. And yes, I suppose to fight for what is right one must accept there could be a price to pay but if it can be avoided, why not? Sounds to me like the only ones benefitting from this are the pro homosexual marriage people.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 12:09 PM By Dan
"Sorry to rain on the parade of all the Proposition 8 supporters, but if you want to testify in court on such a matter of public policy as marriage equality for Gay couples, you had better be prepared to come out of the closet. It's called ACCOUNTABILITY" As usual Chuck, you miss the point completely. One doesn't deliberately put innocent people in harms way, The accountability you would get would most likely be danger to their lives or property by closed-minded zealots for gay-marriage.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 12:10 PM By John F. Maguire
This case poses a number of legal issues, but the issue I want to focus upon here is an empirical one: how to make the legal interest of the 28 states that have declared themselves on the quesiton of "same-sex marriage" by ballot initiatives graphically clear. In this post, I want to render VOTING DATA derived from the ballot initiatives of 28 states by (a) state, (b) year, and (c) PERCENT IN FAVOR OF THE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE BAN. ~ As sociologists Rory McVeigh and Maria-Elena D. Diaz have noted, "From 2000 through 2008, initiatives proposing to ban same-sex marriage were on the ballot in 28 states." Here is the McVeigh/Diaz findings derived from these ballot initiatives: ALASKA: 1998: 68.1 Percent in Favor of Same-Sex Marriage Ban [state level (i.e., as distinguished from county level]; HAWAII: 1998: 69.2 Percent in Favor of Same-Sex Marriage Ban; CALIFORNIA: 2000: 61.4 Percent in Favor of S-S Marriage Ban; NEBRASKA: 2000: 70.1 Percent in favor....; NEVADA: 2000: 69.6; NEVADA: 2002: 67.2; ARKANSAS: 2004: 75.0; GEORGIA: 2004: 76.2; KENTUCKY: 2004: 74.5; LOUISIANA: 2004: 77.8; MICHIGAN: 2004: 58.6; MISSISSIPPI: 2004: 85.6; MISSOURI: 2004: 70.6; MONTANA: 2004: 66.6; NORTH DAKOTA: 2004: 73.2; OHIO: 2004: 61.7; OKLAHOMA: 2004: 75.6; OREGON: 2004: 56.6; UTAH: 2004: 65.9; KANSAS: 2005: 69.9; TEXAS: 2005: 76.3; ALABAMA: 2006: 81.2; ARIZONA: 2006: 48.2; COLORADO: 2006: 55.0; IDAHO: 2006: 63.3; SOUTH CAROLINA: 2006: 78.0; SOUTH DAKOTA: 2006: 51.8; TENNESSEE: 2006: 81.3; VIRGINIA: 2006: 57.0; WISCONSIN: 2006: 59.4; ARIZONA: 2008: 56.2; CALIFORNIA: 2008: 52.3; FLORIDA: 2008: 61.9. Source: Rory McVeigh and Maria-Elena D. Diaz, "Voting to Ban Same-Sex Marriage: Interests, Values, Communities," _American Sociological Review_, Vol. 74, Number 6 (December 2009), pp. 891-915 at 892.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 12:57 PM By John Zakharia
I am a strong supporter of Prop 8. I wanted to share Michelle Malkin views on video coverage....I generally support more sunshine in all government proceedings. But the judge’s unusual method of securing video coverage is extremely troubling. This isn’t a sincere educational effort to provide transparency to the public. It’s a flagrant attempt at making Prop. 8 a show trial — and intimidating Prop. 8 backers who will be called to testify.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 2:42 PM By 1abqdad
Judges are supposed to "interpret the Law". However, since the legal field has been taken over by liberal humanistic pagans, they have taken to legislation from the bench and forcing their views upon an ever more conservative public. (Becoming ever more conservative because of the insane level of the hypocrisy from the liberals!) This is a prefect example. The California Supreme court used the ultimate form of activism and over rode the desires of the people. The people responded and now the judges want to again trump the desires of the people. This guy (I refuses to use the term "judge", as he certainly does NOT deserve it.) wants to add the effect of threats of violence against honest citizens to the process! It's interesting that when liberals are persecuted, it's a "hate crime" and when it happens to Godly people it's (pagan) justice. If liberals we put at risk in his fashion, the media would be going nuts and all of Hollywood would be screaming "foul"! The sickness of liberalism is pure evil.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 5:28 PM By Abeca Christian
Tom Byrne you tell it like it is, I am glad you responded so well to what Chuck posted. Tom I agree with your post.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 5:54 PM By Linda
This will backfire on the homosexualists in the long run. Americans are fed up with their Gaystapo tactics and immature refusal to accept defeat. This isn't a civil rights issue. It's about Pimping Perversion.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 6:09 PM By Rick DeLano
This will be a show trial in a kangaroo court. This is going to blow up right in the faces of the radicals who have planned this circus. The people have had enough of elites determined to intimidate, threaten, and persecute us for our refusal to drink the gay "marriage" Kool Aid. I predict that this trial is going to be a landmark event in the defeat and rollback of the gay "marriage" movement. I also predict that this Hanging Judge will certainly hand a victory to the enemies of marriage--but remember, that was cooked in from the beginning, and it is only Round One. I expect that a very large number of people who were not previously particularly emotionally engaged with this issue are about to become so, and a substantial majority of these will become committed defenders of marriage. The gay rights movement has set itself up for one hellacious backlash, with this grotesque show trial.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 7:50 PM By JLS
Walker resembles the delusional Jimmy Carter.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 7:53 PM By simone_dubois
How much google stock does vaughn own? How long has he desired 15 minutes of fame? A mockery! "Rick Jacobs, chairman of the homosexual “marriage” advocacy group the Courage Campaign, told the Washington Times that the case presents issues that are “very important to the public” and will affect millions of people. "By televising the trial, the public will be able to see for themselves the arguments and evidence presented by both sides, and will therefore have more confidence in the outcome of the trial," he said. " Rick Jacobs sounds like he already knows the outcome, interesting. Or maybe he just has google stock.

Posted Friday, January 08, 2010 9:37 PM By JonJ
Maguire, how is public opinion relevant to the Constitutional issues? Is it not the very existence of Constitutional rights which prevents our republic from becoming a deTocquvellian "tyranny of the majority"?

Posted Saturday, January 09, 2010 9:18 AM By ANTONIO
I am Catholic and subscribe to the sacrament of Marriage but also as an America support civil equality for all, including LGBT persons, I can't speak for all but I sense gay marriage is driven by a passion for freedom, love and equality. Anti gay marriage is driven by exclusion and conditional freedom, equality and love. While religion must be protected from the mob, civil rights must sometimes be protected from a different mob. Lets attract people to us not exclude them and drive them away. antonio

Posted Saturday, January 09, 2010 3:06 PM By Janice
I believe that people of the same sex have a right to marry. That said, I also believe that once the "People Have Spoken" in open a free elections, then the will of the people must be respected. The day when gay people can legally marry, will come, perhaps soon, but they will have to wait for that election.

Posted Saturday, January 09, 2010 6:49 PM By Peter
Liberalism? Hell no. The outcome of this trial will have national ramifications the likes of which the nation hasn't seen since the final ruling in Roe V. Wade. If proponents of prop8 are so afraid that their testimony will cause a retaliative response, it is in all likelihood because they know from the get-go that their opinion is largely unsubstantiated and bigoted. Perhaps it is right, then, that rather than bearing false witness and sinning at the national level for the world to see, they rethink their position lest they go down in history as the consummate fools they clearly are.

Posted Sunday, January 10, 2010 12:55 PM By John
It's not against the law to be gay in America. Gay people that are citizens of this country are entitled to equal rights under the law and that includes the right to get married. What your opinion is and how it relates to your religion does not equal constitutional law.

Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 9:34 AM By Dan
"If proponents of prop8 are so afraid that their testimony will cause a retaliative response, it is in all likelihood because they know from the get-go that their opinion is largely unsubstantiated and bigoted." Say what??!!?? Peter?? Your comment is self-refuting. You admit a retaliatory response is in the cards, so why shouldn't one be afraid? You don't go to Mecca and call Mohammed a liar and a fake, do you? The retaliation is due to the mind set of those who retaliate, that is, their penchant for violence. Now, as to an opinion being unsubstantiated, I would ask you if Almighty God is any source of substantiation to you -- and what we call "Natural Law" on which this nation was originally founded -- the connection between nature and grace which states the moral order is founded by Divine Will and consistent with right reason. Only the fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 3:42 PM By Anne T.
John, the men who wrote the Constitution never meant for same-sex marriage to be a "right". If it were they would have allowed a father to marry his son if the mother had died to keep the inheritance in the family.

Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 5:51 PM By JLS
John, unnatural acts have been illegal in the U.S., and may again become illegal. Can you imagine being in one prison and your sex partner in another for a few years? Or would it really matter to you who was your sex partner in that case?

Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 5:55 PM By JLS
So, ANTONIO, you claim to be both Catholic and anti-Catholic at the same time in that you oppose the Great Commission. Can you explain this? Do you vote for those who are personally opposed to abortion but make sure it's legal?

Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 5:59 PM By John
Ann T., That's preposterous and you know it. If you really believe what you wrote, then Women should never have been allowed to vote and the slaves should never have been freed. Let's wait and see what the constitutional law experts decide.

Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 7:53 PM By Anne T.
A correction to the second sentence in my last post: "If they did" not "If they were". Instead the Founding Fathers chose to let the father give his property to whomever he wanted in a will because they did not even consider such a thing as "same-sex" marriage. It would have been an abomination to them. The same can be down with single people of whatever sex. They can write out a will. If incest is wrong, so is so-called marriages between two people of the same sex. Why do some people try to be what they are not? It is the heighth of deceit.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:24 AM By Peter
Dan - Take ESL and then get back to me.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:12 PM By Anne T.
No it is not preposterous, John. Even the Founding Fathers were not in agreement about slavery. There were slave free states that came into the union from the beginning. And comparing a sexual act with a race is demeaning to any race.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:15 PM By Anne T.
A correction: "comparing a perverted sex act to any race is demeaning. Perversion meaning a misuse of the sexual function created by God for procreation and the love between husband and wife.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:32 PM By JLS
John, Anne T. is responding to your fantasy with the illogic of fantasy. If you were not hot under the collar for homosex, then you'd see it. But like a camel sniffing the wind, depraved sex is all that homos can open their eyes to. Anne T. and others are telling you to get a life outside the beltway, if you know what that refers to and can understand metaphor.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:34 PM By JLS
Peter, it is not Dan who is coming to you, but you who are coming to a Catholic website for the purpose of testing your latest efforts to deceive people. There is a reason the phrase "gay deceiver" was invented.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:24 PM By Megan
As defined in civil law, a "same sex marriage" is not a sex act and requires no sex act. The two people don't even have to be homosexual. The same is true of an "opposite sex marriage" under civil law. No sex act is required and the people do not have to be heterosexual or even capable of or interested in producing children.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3:22 PM By JonJ
Anne, how do you conflate incest with gay marriage? You are using the "parade of horribles" argument, yet I fail to see how allowing gay marriage mandates legalizing incest or polygamy. In both cases, there are clear distinguishing points of valid state interest. Incest leads to unacceptably high reinforcement of undesireable genetic traits; while polygamy/polyandry can quickly lead to a situation where only a select few can find marriage partners, leading to social disruption. While allowing gay marriage opens a gulf between secular marriage and Catholic marriage, this discontinuity doesn't create a legitimate state purpose due to establishment clause restrictions. The strongest church argument is the one you stated before: the framers never intended constitutionally protected liberty to include gay marriage. The counterargument to the "intent of the framer" theory is that religious bias clouded the framer's views with respect to liberty interests, and, consequently, doesn't the establishment clause preclude us from applying that bias? . This situation is somewhat analogous to applying the bill of rights to restrictive covenants in property contracts (to prevent future owners from selling to blacks) in the 50's. Certainly, the founders would have viewed these restrictive convenants favorably, due to their racial bias (and the expanded view of the contract clause before 1900). Yet, the Warren court ruled these restrictive covenants unconstitutional without a constitutional amendment. If we view the founder's reliance on religion for our legal marriage concepts as unconstitutional, now the Church would have to show there is a compelling state interest in banning gay marriage. That means showing specific social harm caused by gay marriage without relying on platitudes like "protect the family" or regilious theories of immorality. Also, that harm would have to be stronger than mere correlation with undesired outcomes, you'd need a clear causitive link.

Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:26 PM By Peter
Still impossible for you to mind your own business, huh, JLS.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:32 AM By John
Sweden was the fifth European country to allow same-sex marriage. Parliament adopted a law that gives same-sex couples the same marriage rights as heterosexuals. The Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, Spain and Portugal also allow same-sex marriages.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:34 AM By Anne T.
JonJ, both Judiasm and Christianity file sodomy under the same category of sins as incest. So do many other religions. The only Jews and Christians who do not are those who have fallen away from the original meaning of certain types of moral (not ritual) sin.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:40 AM By Anne T.
Furthermore, all Catholic prayerbooks include intercourse with a person of the same sex under sexual sins, including incest and beastiality. And correcting error IS all faithful Catholic's business.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 12:58 PM By Anne T.
Megan, you are not fooling anyone, including yourself. The so-called "same-sex marriage" legislation is ALL about society giving its approval to sodomy and other types of deviant sexual behavior. It IS an attack on the traditional family as many priests, ministers and rabbis have said, and they are right. Marriage was instituted to protect mainly wives and children, but in some cases husbands too, so children could be raised, hopefully, in a decent, loving, protecting, two parent (of opposite sex, of course) home. Children need both a good loving mother and a good loving father.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:04 PM By Jenny S.
Why do some religious people want to impose their religion's beliefs onto all citizens? Many opponents of same-sex marriage will usually include as part of their argument, the Bible as well as Jewish and Christian beliefs that marriage should be limited to one man and one woman. But the Bible does speak of other "arrangements". Proponents of same-sex marriage usually show that the definition of marriage has changed over the centuries and even within the last 50 or so years when the last laws preventing interracial marriages were overturned. Why can we not take the example of divorce and the way Catholics handle the difference between the Church and the State. A Catholic can divorce under the laws of all 50 states, but still has to resolve their religious beliefs and the issue of divorce with their church. If a religion does not want to sanction same-sex marriage, so be it. But why try to enforce a religious belief on everyone. Did Jesus FORCE anyone to believe in him?

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:39 PM By JonJ
Ummm Anne, I'm not disputing the THEOLOGY of your view. Certainly, catholic doctrine should direct the church to act against legalizing gay marriage. Winning a constitutional battle will require entirely different arguments.. Before, traditional marriage supporters could sit on"intent of the framer theories and carry the day. Now, the recent overturn of Bowers v. Hardwick (which upheld the constitutionality of anti-sodomy laws) makes that a doubtful strategy. I look at the cases, and the direction of our jurisprudence, and think that the gays will eventually win the legal argument.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:06 PM By Susan
Speaking of categories, St. Paul categorically warns: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, ... nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:30 PM By JLS
JonJ, "the legal argument"? What does that mean? There are various schools of law, each with a variety of legal opinions. Are you suggesting that there is a kind of Platonic Form of legal argument that evolution is leading us towards?

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:32 PM By JLS
Jenny S, because Catholicism received a command/instruction from Jesus called the "Great Commission" which is to go into all the world and preach the Gospel and disciple the nations". Next question?

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:34 PM By JLS
Jenny S's next question: Jesus informs us that those who do not follow Him will find themselves forced to keep out of eternal reward. I'd say, then, yes, Jesus forces people against their will.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:36 PM By JLS
Peter, you must be in great pain. What is troubling you?

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:46 PM By Anne T.
Jenny S., the answer to the first question in your post of Jan. 13 at 3:04 p.m. is: the same reason you try to impose your beliefs on the rest of us. We have as much right to impose our beliefs on marriage as you do. Also, if the Bible teaches anything, it teaches that those other arrangements for marriage ended up in disaster for all the society and all the people involved. As Don Feder, a Jewish author, has said if you want to see the horrible results of polygamy, just look how the descendants of Isaac and Ismael (children of Abraham as a result of his intercourse with his wife and his concubine), have fought down through the ages. That whole war in Israel is a fight between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael, and it has affected the whole world. Keep marriage simple! One man and one woman!

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:14 PM By Anne T.
I might have put in the address in my last post. I meant to address it to Jenny S., not JonJ. Jenny S. there is already much litigation going on concerning sperm donation that all taxpayers have to pay for in court. A man donated his sperm to a woman who is in a lesbian relationship. Now all three are fighting about his relationship to the child. It is bad enough when husbands and wives devorce and argue over such things, and shipped the children back and forth from parent to parent, why add more such cases. All this adds stress to families that are intact and do not do such things. We have to pay for it too. Why should those who can control their passions, pay for those who cannot.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 9:28 PM By simone_dubois
Here's one for you Jenny S., the Darwinian argument would be that the sexual behavior of homosexual practioners is a behavior which selects for extinction of the species. This is why they are coming after other peoples children of course. That whole indoctrination thing and all. If one cannot reproduce then one must seduce. Anne T. is right, this has always been about acceptance of and normalizing the deviant behavior which quite frankly repulses most people as all sin should.

Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:52 PM By Anne T.
JonJ, the practicing homosexuals and lesbians might win the argument, but as Fr. Euteneur and others have said, "God will not be mocked." There will come a chastisement some will truly regret.

Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 7:22 PM By JonJ
JLS, what I mean by "winning the legal argument" is that they will eventually win in the Supreme Court. The under 30 crowd is pretty heavily in favor of gay rights. Whether subsequent generations will swing away, is anybody's guess now. But, when the current young generation predominates the judiciary, then the gays are likely to win at least temporary victories in the courts. The "intent of the framer" arguments failed with respect to Texas' anti-sodomy law. While marriage rights are somewhat different than anti-sodomy, current jurisprudential inertia seems to be moving in their favor. If the Church intends to win this issue, they will have to fund some peer reviewed sound sociological evidence about objective social harm caused by gay marriage, which isn't mere correlation but is supported by causative links and is not a remote (secondary or tertiary) cause. I think there is evidence which might persuade traditional marriage supporters, but I'm not sure there's enough such evidence to persuade the generation y judges who will rule in these future cases.

Posted Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:07 PM By Thomas
The Church teaches: "The Church proposes; she imposes nothing. She respects individuals and cultures, and she honors the sanctuary of conscience." "Dialogue, in this deeper sense, implies witness of my deepest faith, a witness which proposes but by no means imposes one’s own faith; on the contrary, it implies respect for every other conviction and every other faith."

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