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“A gay-bashing tirade?”

What Pope Benedict really told the Roman Curia on Dec. 22


Both mainstream and homosexual media around the world launched into a full-court and often vicious attack on Pope Benedict XVI following his Dec. 22 Christmas address to the Roman Curia. The furor began after the Holy Father said that protecting humankind from self-destruction was as important to Catholics as protecting the tropical rainforests. Although the pope nowhere used the word “homosexuality” in his discourse, homosexuals and others seized on a portion of his description of the Catholic understanding of the created natural order in which he described the “sacrament of creation” as “matrimony - which is the lifelong bond between a man and a woman.”

Various media called Benedict XVI’s address to the Curia a “gay-bashing tirade,” a “homophobic attack,” an “anti-gay message,” and a “toxic Christmas message.” In the interest of clarity and justice, California Catholic Daily has excerpted the portion of the Holy Father’s speech that prompted the widespread outrage (it was only a brief part of an address that covered many other topics). We leave it to our readers to decide whether there was any legitimate justification for the attacks on Pope Benedict XVI.

Relevant excerpt from Pope Benedict XVI’s Dec. 22 address to the Roman Curia:

“First of all, there is the affirmation that comes to us from the start of the story of Creation, which tells of the Creator Spirit that moved over the waters, created the world and continuously renews it.

Faith in the Creator Spirit is an essential element of the Christian Creed. The fact that matter has a mathematical structure, is full of spirit (energy), is the foundation of the modern science of nature.

Only because matter is structured intelligently, our mind is able to interpret it and actively remodel it. The fact that this intelligent structure comes from the same Creator Spirit that also gave us our spirit, implies a task and a responsibility.

The ultimate basis of our responsibility towards the earth is our faith in creation. The earth is not simply a property that we can exploit according to our interests and desires. It is a gift of the Creator who designed its intrinsic order, and through this, has given us the orientative indications to follow as administrators of his Creation.

The fact that the earth, the cosmos, mirror the Creator Spirit also means that their rational structure -- which beyond their mathematical structure, become almost palpable through experimentation - carries in itself an ethical orientation.

The Spirit that shaped them is more than mathematics -- it is Goodness itself, which, through the language of creation, shows us the road to correct living.

Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian Creed, the Church cannot and should not limit itself to transmitting to its faithful only the message of salvation. She has a responsibility for Creation, and it should validate this responsibility in public.

In so doing, it should defend not just the earth, water and air as gifts of Creation that belong to everyone. She should also protect man from destroying himself.

It is necessary to have something like an ecology of man, understood in the right sense. It is not outdated metaphysics when the Church speaks of the nature of the human being as man and woman, and asks that this natural order be respected.

This has to do with faith in the Creator and listening to the language of creation, which, if disregarded, would be man's self-destruction and therefore a destruction of God's work itself.

That which has come to be expressed and understood with the term 'gender' effectively results in man's self-emancipation from Creation (nature) and from the Creator. Man wants to do everything by himself and to decide always and exclusively about anything that concerns him personally. But this is to live against truth, to live against the Spirit Creator.

The tropical rain forests deserve our protection, yes, but man does not deserve it less as a Creature of the Spirit himself, in whom is inscribed a message that does not mean a contradiction of human freedom but its condition.

The great theologians of Scholasticism described matrimony -- which is the lifelong bond between a man and a woman -- as a sacrament of Creation, that the Creator himself instituted, and that Christ, without changing the message of Creation, welcomed in the story of his alliance with men.

Part of the announcement that the Church should bring to men is a testimonial for the Spirit Creator present in all of nature, but specially in the nature of man, who was created in the image of God.

One must reread the encyclical Humanae Vitae with this perspective: the intention of Pope Paul VI was to defend love against consumer sex, the future against the exclusive claim of the moment, and human nature against manipulation.”


READER COMMENTS

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 12:10 AM By Charles O'Connell
By attacking these mere re-iterations of perennial Catholic teaching, homosexualists and their MSM supporters reveal their true motive: They don't simply want to achieve a kind of alternate equity with the state of matrimony, they want to alter its fundamental structure, making it nasty like their own acts, dragging our Holy Sacrament down off the altar and out into the nudie, public-sex, sodomite parade down on the Castro. Their 'Gender Agenda' (Dale O'Leary) is to make sodomites of us all - especially our children.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 12:13 AM By Central Valley
The holy sacramental union of a man and a woman is unitative and procreative, homosexual acts are neither. Homosexual acts are nothing more than an echange of ego's. The are also sinful. The Holy Father speaks of the one prophetic thing Paul VI did, the promulgation of Humane Vite. Once "Catholic" countries do not even produce enough children to maintain their current population. The Holy Fathers presentation to the Roman Curia should be read in every parish in the United States, but the readers of this site know that sadly it won't be.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 12:17 AM By Dan
It seems to this reader that we have an articulate presentation of Natural Law here. I am not at all surprised the GLBT community is up in arms. Their entire raison d'etre requires a denial of traditional Natural Law philosophy and a substitution of a new "law," something hitherto unseen and unknown in the history of philosoply and theology. Welcome to the culture wars, your Holiness.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 1:07 AM By John F. Maguire
No, this address to the Roman Curia is a defense of matrimonial sexuality as always already open to the possibility of human life; it does not contain a homocentric focus (as why should it?), taking as it does--as given--that matrimony (as the word suggests (matris = motherhood; munus = gift [office]) is irreplaceable as a permanent sacrament of creation--elevated, to be sure, by the supernatural order of grace. What is emphasized by Pope Benedict XVI is marriage's place in the created order but not without reference to the soteriological (salvific) import of marriage as "allied" with Christ in his redemptive work. Benedict writes: "Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian Creed, the Church cannot and should not limit itself to transmitting to the faithful only the message of salvation. She has a responsibility for Creation, and should validate this responsibility in public." For the sake of the created order itself, then, we are urged, in the name of human responsbility, "to defend love" and therefore not remove the notion of matrimonial sexuality from the public sphere.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 4:25 AM By Jon
I detect a strong undercurrent against homosexual sex and homosexual marriage. Bravo!

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:26 AM By Nora
Speak the truth, thats what the Holy Father does. Thank God someone does. Rock on B16.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:27 AM By Don
Pope Benedict XVI speaks the truth with clarity. I wholeheartedly support him.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:43 AM By michael g.b.
being open to"procreation" has long been considered essential aspect for a valid sacramental marriage . . , the Holy Father has said nothing new . . . nothing agianst anyone . . . just restated the traditional theological sacramentology of the Church . . . and the Pope is correct . .and as Jesus said: "he who has ears to hear, let him hear". i paricularly appreciated the Pope's mentioning of the "intellibility" encoded into the very structures of all creation . . the only reason "science' can exist and function and apply "the scientific method" to study, learn and manipulate nature, IS becasue intelligence ordered creation so that it IS readable . . . take that away and science would be confronted with chaos and able to know, learn, and do nothing at all.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:45 AM By Mark from PA
Thanks. This is a very good article.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:51 AM By St. Christopher
His Holiness BXVI, is certainly on point by noting the will of God that matrimony is itself a "sacrament of Creation" thereby leaving out man-made foolishness, such as homosexual marriage. Certainly there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth by various homosexual groups, but to what end, except public noise? The homosexual marriage gig has crested and hopefully will now be reduced to the dark corner where it belongs. What is confusing about the Holy Father's statement is the focus on the Church's "message" being "more than salvation." The only valid basis for the Church is to bring Man back to his loving Father, the only basis. Other than this, the Church is merely an institution. I think that the Vatican is listening to too many questionable theories put forth by Hollywood and its array of "scientists." Man has "dominion over . . . the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth." (DR, Genesis 1:26.) Also, God "took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it." (DR, Genesis 2:15.) I am always worried about theological notions of environmentalism, which is at least confusing and perhaps wrong, if it is meant to remove Man from his right of dominion .

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:03 AM By Jim Good
The truth has been spoken. One either chooses to live in the truth or die in the lie.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:12 AM By Gerry Zipf
Beauty, truth and reason....inseparably guarded by the Church, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail! Thank God!

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:16 AM By Maryanne Linkes
I find that when one doesn't want to hear the truth, they become mean and violent. Pope Benedict is the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ and he must always speak the truth. Usually when one knows they are sinning, and I know this from my experience, they don't want to hear the message so they scream and bash the messenger. God bless our Pope for wanting to save the eternal life of all. Truth is always the same and His name is Jesus. A homosexual lifestyle is sinful and always has been - read the Bible. Let us pray for those who are lost.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM By Rhonda
Thank you, Pope Benedict, for speaking the Truth with love.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:55 AM By Anne
Of course the Pope did not deserve the angry outbursts. What a pity journalists followed the first, twisted Reuters-version of the Pope's speech. Do they ever really study his own words?

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:17 AM By Jim Hanink
An eloquent and insightful reflection -- how blest we are to have such a pope!

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:50 AM By Janet Frisco
The Holy Father speaks God's truth with beauty and eloquence but unfortunately many have rejected God, beauty and truth and prefer their own beliefs. Thank God for the voice of reason in a time of such darkness and confusion. Let us continue to pray for the sucessor of St.Peter that he will be strenghtened in continuing to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ regardless of the persecution he will have to endure.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:54 AM By Vin
There is really no justification for homosexual sex. It is not necessary to use sex to express love. How about love of parents, children, siblings, friends, none of which require a sexual expression to be deep and sincere. When a relationship centers on sex, it appears to need more than can be obtained from one relationship and consequently the partners seek more partners. It is sad that our society has come to this point when there is so much more needing our attention, poverty, war, proper education, etc.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 8:23 AM By Pat Morris
Our Holy Father did not deserve to be "bashed." He is speaking the truth in love and some in our society do not want to hear the truth. May God continue to guide, protect and encourage our dear Pope Benedict XVI as he leads the faithful in these trying times.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 8:24 AM By samuel
The Holy Father is 100% correct in his analysis. Those who choose to beleive otherwise should, will have to decide for themselves, Heaven or eternal damnation! You can hate all you want , but, we shall all see at the Day of Judgement. Prayer is the answer to all the problems we have. As for me, I shall pray that all may be able to see the Truth

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 8:41 AM By L.
The Pope is correct is taking the stand he is taking. If you don't believe in what the Church espouses, which is Bible-based, then go become a Protestant and stop complaining. Like it or not, the words of the Bible cannot be changed.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:10 AM By JLS
This is an example of why I have always liked what Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI has written and proclaims. As he says here, which characterizes not only the various things he has published, but that of everyone else who has said anything at all, one needs to study evermore the various other things that connect, network, and/or have anything to do with anything. How, for example, does one understand Humanae Vitae without also having studied Scripture ... and especially without having come to some faith in God? The Pope here is offering a great gift from God to man, a gift that is far more than a fundamentalist can cope with and far more also than a tree hugger can cope with. He is offering a partnership for man with God in the continual renewing of the earth. Hopefully this partnership will turn into a marriage for many if not all.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:20 AM By Ted
We are very blessed by Almighty God to have such a wonderful intelligent leader as Pope Benedict XVI. He is a man of truth and love who is doing the will of God and of course as usual there are people who reject his message - they reject God's representative on earth and God's word. Let us pray for our poor misguided brothers and sisters who need the grace of God to see and understand and yes embrace the truth that marriage is between a man and a woman and that God has always intended it that way.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:24 AM By Trimelda
The fact that an ordinary homily on the sacred nature of the family would be seen as gay bashing shows me just how nutty some of the homosexual activists are. Here come the Politically Correct police once again!

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:45 AM By Richard
Amen ,Holy Father

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:55 AM By papamac
Thank God for this Pope, the sodomites and their liberal media nutcases hate TRUTH, it is their greatest enemy. We had two great Homolies over the weekend,Catholic Priests who have not been caught up in the living gospels of the unfaithful will follow this Pope's example. MGB

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:56 AM By Life Lady
What the Holy Father has done is to continue to teach his children, we who were given to him by our Creator as creatures to be nurtured and to guide. The Holy Father is giving us the Truth, as is his duty. We would all do well to take his teaching to heart, and listen. His words are of love, beginning and ending in love, which is the mantle of his office. We all can do nothing but listen ane give glory to God for providing us with such a sweet shepherd.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:59 AM By Catherine
This is an a most beautiful and intelligent reflection, so typical of Benedict, to take our typical way of thinking and lead us to deeper and more profound understanding. As for the bigots who attack him and all free speech, they are reeking with hatred. This is darkness, a darkness that wants to wipe out what is true and good. We must stand up for our children, grandchildren and the children of the world.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 10:24 AM By Mr. Campbell
Thank you for posting this portion of the Holy Father's words to the Roman Curia on December 22, 2008, words for which His opponents--perhaps within the Church also--have subjected Pope Benedict to verbal assault. To call the Pope's delivery "a gay-bashing tirade" derails his audience from the primary fact that Pope Benedict has denounced "contraception"--again. That he must instruct his clergy to reread "Humanae Vitae" indicates something deeper about the present needs of the Catholic Church. Perhaps Our Pope is also reminding us of the cause of homosexuality as found in Scripture itself and explained to me by my confirmation sponsor. (See Romans 1:18-35). Those sensitive to this condition would perhaps feel offense? Yet, the Pope's words are full of Charity and Truth. He has delivered the teaching of God. By defending truth and spreading the Person of Jesus--the Gospel--he has put light and hope where there is darkness and shame. If he has failed anywhere, and deserving of rebuke, it is for continuing to give milk to leaders of the Church who should be capable of meat (see St. Paul's comments on this matter). But, the Pope knows His own, and He spoke to them in the way they hear. If He spoke differently, it would be uncharitable. No? Personally, I think our present Pope to be as clever as a serpent not to tell his own that by condoning contraception, abortion and active homosexuality, they could make God vomit. With the salt of faith, Mr. Campbell

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 11:02 AM By Elizabeth
HOLY FATHER IS AWESOME!!!!! THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 11:45 AM By Dan Guenzel
It is amusing that the poofs and other loudmouths view the Holy Father's words as homosexual "bashing". Would, oh would, that it were true. Sadly it is not. This is not to denigrate what Benedict said in his address. Rather it is to point out that the Pope has been less than outwardly candid about the homosexual cancer that is eating away at the Church and the world. Some hard, clear and unambiguous condemnations of this unspeakable vice emanating from Peter's Chair would be most welcome.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 12:38 PM By Almond Milk
I love our Pope! Praise be Jesus Christ!

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 2:07 PM By Louis
Right on Pope Bendict!!! "This has to do with faith in the Creator and listening to the language of creation, which, if disregarded, would be man's self-destruction and therefore a destruction of God's work itself." In this quote our Holy Father has identified the essence of this evil manifestation which is "homosexualty". The Devil has, from the beginning wanted to thwart God's plan and to destroy Man. We must wake up and see what this underlying "spirit of homosexuality" truly is, and cast it out by the Blood of The Lamb, Jesus...Amen, Alleluyah!

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 2:12 PM By Joseph Davis
I am an admirer of Benedict XVI. and enjoy reading his writings. Whenever the press brings out an attacking Headline after a Papal speech I have been taught to go to the source and I will find that the Headline is mostly if not always incorrect. What does sadden me is that many of the posts above seem to indicate that God loves all of creation with the exception of homosexuals who through the power of the devil are out to destroy the Catholic Church. Abd I do not beleive that is so.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 2:49 PM By Mare
Today people cant handel the truth, right is wrong and wrong is right, It take a stong man with Holy courage to stand against the evil tide, what were all called to do:Onward Christian Soldiers

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 3:48 PM By Anne T.
The Holy Father's address to the Roman Curia is Biblical teaching to the core. Next they will say he is bashing those who practice incest or polygamy. Who cares what "they" say! I have stopped buying their newspapers and magazines a long time ago and only buy such ones that have the right values and morals.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 5:42 PM By crb
Joseph, I disagree with what you say regarding implications about homosexuals. Homosexual acts are evil. People can do evil acts. We must love the sinner but hate the sin. However, history has shown that those engaged in sin do tend to attack and want to destroy the Catholic church for proclaiming the truth. Does this imply that God does not love the sinner and wish that he or she would come back? Of course not. But it is true that homosexuals have been trying to silence the Catholic Church as well as other non-Catholic churches that have the bravery to speak against these activities (note there is a difference between criticizing the act vs. the people). When they perform their sick acts in front of a church or desecrate the Eucharist, it's kind of obvious.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:12 PM By Villi
crd, you say "it is true that homosexuals have been trying to silence the Catholic Church". No, it is perhaps true that SOME homosexuals have been trying to silence the Church, as have some heterosexuals been been trying to as well. But it is no more true to say that homosexuals are trying to silence the Church than to say heterosexuals are trying to, or Catholics are trying to, etc. There are many homosexual persons who work in concert with the Church to spread her message.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:45 PM By Brian McNally
I understand that in India homosexuals are forced to leave the cities, towns and villages and live in communities of their own kind, and must remain isolated from the general population?

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 6:48 PM By Miguel
This Pope is very inspirational. It's as almost these reactionaries comb the homilies daily to find the "anti-gay" comments. It is quite a pathetic existence. Waiting on a daily basis to be offended by the truth.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:14 PM By CK
Three cheers for the Pope. He's the leader of our church and speaks the truth. Marriage has and always be between a man and a woman, period. I'm glad to hear it spoken loud and clear. Jewish and Islamic religions are against it too. Any other union is a perversion of nature and natural order. Prays go out for conversion and repentence. This world needs it.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:21 PM By Anne T.
I was referring to the newspapers and magazines of the mainstream media in my last post. I have never bought blatantly homosexual or lesbian materials, magazines or newspapers.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:34 PM By JLS
Joseph, homosexuality, as any imperfect condition, is used by the devil to attack God. The devil will use anything, even perfection if he finds it, for example he tried to use Jesus to attack God. He had trouble recognizing God in Jesus, and this shows us that the devil simply does not understand divine things. The faithful have been given understanding and thus are able to share the victory of Christ over the devil.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:55 PM By Ann Tran
Dear friends, I have thought that Gay-style is really wrong. I have been thinking about the human beings and the other animals. If you agree with me, you can observe animal females and males. Even they have no sould and conscience as human beings, they still know how to make a right sex. The male finds female to be partner when they have sex. I meant that they always sex with opposit gender. Why human beings could not know how to follow the natural ways to do it in the right way like the animals do. For this reason, I thought that gay is really wrong, and it is sinful. Thank you for your time

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 8:42 PM By Mariam
The Pope is the earthly elected representative of Christ the Son of God on Earth. That for me, takes care of all issues he addresses pertaining to faith and morals and dogma, as a member of the Catholic Church. WHATEVER HE BINDS ON EARTH WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN. The implications of that statment by Jesus himself, has tremendous ramifications. I have not found one instance where the Pope has guided me in the wrong path on my journey to God. It is unfortunate that many who call themslves 'Catholic' disagree or seek to silence him, betray him by their disobedience (including a large number of so called 'clergy') because what he says interfers with their lifestyles or challenges them to think of a present and future full of chaos, darkness and abandonment of God in their lives. God bless and keep him safe and well as he seeks to illuminate a selfish world with truth, courage and unwavering faith.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:09 PM By JLS
Advocation of homosexuality opposes the Church.

Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 9:13 PM By JLS
Mariam, the pope is the vicar of Christ, regardless of how he gains the throne. The first pope was not elected; therefore, election is not a factor in the nature of the papacy. The pope is the man nature of the Godman, Jesus Christ, Who is one person in two natures.

Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:55 AM By VR29
God bless our Pope! He speaks the Truth with clarity, courage and fortitude. Let us all stand up for Jesus Christ, be not afraid, stand up and be heard! Defend Our Lord and Our Lady, count yourselves blessed to live in times of such worldly persecution!

Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:49 AM By cathguy
God bless Pope Benedict XVI for again speaking the truth. Let us pray for him. He is assaulted on all sides. There is a traditional chapel near my house which is now trying to put out pamphlets condemning the Pope as a "modernist." Simultaneously, he is assaulted by those promoting the homosexualist agenda. This agenda is a direct attack on children and marriage, just as abortion is. The culture of death in on the march. Pray for the Pope. Pray for the schismatics. Pray for unity.

Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:16 PM By Joseph Davis
Where I live the theme of the New Year's Celebration is Creation, the same topic on which our Holy Father spoke just before Christmas. I agree wholehearted with what he said. What suprised me was the ferocity of the language in the earlier posts. Surely people remember that Jesus said ' they will hate you because they hated me first.' It is not to be unexpected that the Church will be attacked, by many people who lack understanding and perhaps have evil in their hearts. But we should not blame it on one group. In front of me I have my copy of Pope Benedict XVI Encycleical Letter 'God is Love'. I strongly recommend that to everyone.

Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 8:05 AM By john r
my understanding is that in the pope's recent message, he is merely reiterating what has already been concluded by the magisterium, that homosexuality is a sin. the whole concept of having a magisterium is grounded in the old covenent and comes against the spirit of the new. the concept is, that there are new laws that we are to be led by under the new covenant. that is not true. in romans paul says that the "sons of god are led by the spirit of god." that under the new covenent we are to be led by and serve of the spirit. jesus directs us to live by the three commandments of love. and the 2nd is the summation of all the law. so that now, the law is for making us conscious of loving our neighbor as ourselves. that means that under the new covenent in order for homosexuality, or anything else, to be a sin, it must come against the 2nd commandment. the questionis then........... what is the essence of homosexuality that would make it come against the 2nd commmndment. the answer is, it doesnt, and therefore is not a sin. nor according to the original text, has scripture ever been declared it a sin, BUT THAT IS ANOTHER TOPIC

Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:13 PM By John Zakharia
When are we going to admit that the media is one of our biggest enemies. We need lawyers to see everytime the media lies and attacks us

Posted Wednesday, December 31, 2008 8:51 PM By JLS
john r, your knowledge is astounding; when do you plan to finish your new version of the Magisterium? Do you plan to copyright it?

Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:22 AM By Irene
St. Paul spoke the truth many years ago about homosexuality being an abomination in the eyes of God - nothing has changed all these years later - it is still a great offense to God. Those who have eyes to see and ears to listen will know the truth - thank you, Pope Benedict for being Christ's light and truth in our world today - keep fighting the good fight!

Posted Thursday, January 01, 2009 6:25 PM By JLS
john r, the Magisterium is not as you claim "grounded in the Old Covenant", but in Jesus Christ. The Law kills, but Jesus gives life ... yet Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law; neither a jot nor a tittle shall disappear from the Law. The Comforter transforms the penitant who is willing.

Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 9:14 AM By James
john r, If married people agree to enage in spousal swaping does that go against your second commandment? What about incest between adults - for example a man and his mother-in-law, or a adult man and his father? - assume both love one another. Is this going against your 2nd commandment?

Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 9:15 AM By James
john r, 1 Cor 6 and 1 Tim 10 say that all homosexuality are sins.

Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 9:17 AM By Anne T.
John r, try reading the first chapter of Romans and the book of Jude. Both are in the New Testament and clearly state that homosexual acts are mortal sin. They are a breakage of the Commandment against adultry. Remember in the Old Testament, in Leviticus, each of the Ten Commandments had "sub sins". Fornication, incest and sodomy were some of the sins listed as a breakage of the Commandment against adultry.

Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 11:22 AM By James
john r, clarification - all homosexual acts (not homosexuality per se) are immoral.

Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 12:39 PM By Anne T.
I misspelled "adultery" as most of you know.

Posted Friday, January 02, 2009 7:36 PM By JLS
Anne T., it can be spelled any old way that works. Have you ever tried to read material written even a century ago? Spelling can morph fairly rapidly. Furthermore, words in this language have been made "official" by someone at some time ... often I'd suppose by narrow margins of opinion. The margins can change over a period of time.

Posted Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:06 AM By Mr. Campbell
This discussion, and original article, remain interesting to me, an outsider to the California area. I read the California Catholic Daily on the days I was travelling through the area when this original article and discussion commenced. But, does anyone have the courage or care to comment on my original thought regarding the Holy Father's reinforcement of TEACHING against CONTRACEPTION? If fewer Catholics contracepted, there would be more children sitting in the pews on Sundays. Just because a media source identifies the Pope's words as "gay" bashing, does not mean that that is what he is addressing. To me, it still seems evident from the words of the article posted, that the Pope was addressing the "Roman Curia." Unless you all think the Roman Curia are homosexuals, why keep focusing on homosexuality? The Pope's words relate to Creation and it's Renewal. If readers really want to walk more than talk, why not ask your local prelates to preach more strongly against the use of contraception?

Posted Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:58 PM By JLS
Mr. Campbell, the priests I hear frequently let the congregation know the evils of such things as contraception ... and homosexuality and other moral sins including abortion. You make a good point that the Pope was addressing a certain group, but still his address was published generally to the public. It is not limited to only one topic of concern, but to several which can be found operating in concert to some extent. Contraception, adultry, homosexual behavior, abortion, infanticide, euthanesia ... it's all being loosed from the same corral.

Posted Sunday, January 04, 2009 7:35 PM By Anne T.
Yes, JLS, times do change. My highschool English teacher would have had a fit if one of her students said "different than" instead of "different from". Now I hear senators and heads of colleges say "different than". Also, we were told not to say "more perfect". She said that if something was perfect, it could not be more perfect., although it is in the Preamble to the Constitution. She was right. How can something that is perfect be more perfect? Now I read it quite often in what is suppose to be good writing and I cringe whenever I hear it. They were "children" according to what she taught us, and not "kids". She always said, "Kids are little goats." Ah! English teachers, some strict, some not.

Posted Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:11 PM By JLS
It depends on the meaning of perfect. I went through the same English instruction you did, Anne T. But your example of "more perfect" union, in the Preamble of the Constitution interests me. If the writers had been learned and devoutly faithful Catholics, I'd guess they would not have seen more than one level of perfection. This goes to show the confusion inherent in Deists and and other relativists, who never reflect the accuracy we find commonly in Catholic proclamations.

Posted Monday, January 05, 2009 9:04 AM By James
Joseph, are you implying God created homosexuals or simply saying God loves everyone?

Posted Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:53 PM By Talitha Kumi
Pray for our Holy Father daily. We must support him and his intentions. It is our joy ful duty to lift' Papa' in our prayers. Truly, we are blessed to have Pope BenedictXVI as our shepherd. His brother (Ithink his name is Father George)shared in an interview how much Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was looking forward to retiring. Ah! To be enjoying his golden years in qiuet lovely ways; sharing memories and love of music with his brother. His eyes drinking in the beauty of his of his boyhood homeland of Bravaria. But he has been called to serve. And so he serves. And in a way is laying down his life for his brother, for us. His obedience and love puts me to shame and yet it inspires me too.I thank God who loves each of us beyond comprehension for giving us this beautiful servant. Thank you Father in heaven and thank you Papa on earth.

Posted Wednesday, January 07, 2009 8:34 PM By Joseph Davis
James I did reply but I either made a mistake in submiting my post or the editor choose not to publish it.

Posted Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:35 PM By Joseph Davis
James, it must have been my fault about the missing post. As I always send my email address, I would expect notification if I had offended. I did include a little joke and I appreciate the sort of humour from the culture in which I live may not be amusing in other cultures. What I did say in answer to your quiry was that I believe God loves all of His creation including all peoples even the one's we judge to be the worst sinners. I did try to point out that people who are homosexual often do many good things, and I did mention the name of a man whose life makes interesting reading. I also said that I did not believe that people choose to be homosexual. But I could be wrong.

Posted Friday, January 09, 2009 6:10 AM By James
Joseph, do you believe God created homosexuality in man?

Posted Friday, January 09, 2009 12:46 PM By Barry
JLS and Anne T, on "more perfect," the Church teaches, for example, "The hierarchy of creatures is expressed by the order of the 'six days', from the less perfect to the more perfect." (CCC#342) And, the Lord's Prayer is the "most perfect of prayers." (CCC#2774) And, Confirmation "renders our bond with the Church more perfect." (CCC#1303) And, "God freely willed to create a world 'in a state of journeying'; towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves... the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect." (CCC#310)

Posted Friday, January 09, 2009 5:18 PM By Joseph Davis
James, I am not sure what you mean by the question. Did God create some people black or asian or say with some genetic problem. Or do these come from some other source. So I do not believe that God created homosexuality but it is there and I do not believe that homosexuals choose to be that way nor do they wish to convert others to that way of life. Was there not a Governor of New Jersey who resigned over a homosexual affair, he wrote an autobigraphy if you were to read it,it might help you to see things differently. As I said I am not a US citizen and the politics in the book was a far bigger shock to me.

Posted Monday, January 12, 2009 8:36 AM By James
Joseph, you said " So I do not believe that God created homosexuality". That was an answer I can accept. Do you believe it's mere existence make's it something acceptable to God?

Posted Monday, January 12, 2009 3:03 PM By Joseph Davis
James can I turn that around, is the fact that some people are attracted to their own sex as repugnant to God as it is to some humans. Or is God ready to forgive failures as often as the sinner falls and there some Catholic people who were attracted to the same sex and lead very holy lives. Are the acceptable to God as they are?

Posted Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:33 AM By James
Joseph, No person is repugnant to God. God loves us all. But are homosexualit acts repugnant to God? I believe the answer is yes. What do you believe?

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